Mosiah 4 - 6

[00:00:15] Speaker A: Welcome to weekly Deep Dive podcast on the add on Education network. The podcast where we take a look at the weekly come follow me discussions and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here in the studio with our friend and this show's producer, Nate Pifer. [00:00:31] Speaker B: Hello, hello, hello. [00:00:33] Speaker A: Hey, how are you doing, buddy? Really good. How are you doing? [00:00:39] Speaker B: I'd say I'm living the dream. [00:00:41] Speaker A: It's been a good day. Been a good week. [00:00:44] Speaker B: Always, man. You're getting ready for the move. [00:00:48] Speaker A: Getting ready, counting down the days. Sweet wishing there were more. We feel like there's a lot in between here and there. [00:00:56] Speaker B: We've probably talked about this a little bit. Jason is going to be moving out of the country. We've had people on multiple occasions ask us if we will continue to do the podcast. The answer is a definitive yes. We have already purchased equipment that we need to, and luckily, my studio is already equipped for remote audio recording. [00:01:21] Speaker A: Yowie. [00:01:23] Speaker B: Yeah, we. [00:01:24] Speaker A: That's what my grandpa would always say. [00:01:25] Speaker B: Oh, and so we. I was like a cartoon thing or something. I was like, that's. [00:01:32] Speaker A: I remember him fondly. [00:01:36] Speaker B: So anyways, the answer is yes, we will be doing it. I would think that in my work I do a lot of remote audio recording and so I will throw it out there. I don't think that you will notice really much of a difference. [00:01:53] Speaker A: The show must go on. [00:01:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, we've at least got to finish the book of Mormon. We at that point don't know what it is that we'll be doing. If we're going to be doing anything, we might high five each other and be like, dude, we just did the four year thing. We did all four years. [00:02:10] Speaker A: We're going to go off the rails. [00:02:12] Speaker B: And do conspiracy or just hang up our hats and just be like, you can go back and listen to. There is a part of me that kind of wants to do doctrine and covenants again, doing some justice on it. [00:02:23] Speaker A: I mean, we were young, cutting our teeth, figuring things out. [00:02:28] Speaker B: It's crazy to think that was almost four years ago. I was in my thirties. It's terrifying. [00:02:35] Speaker A: What? [00:02:35] Speaker B: I was in my thirties when we started our podcast. [00:02:39] Speaker A: I guess I was too. [00:02:42] Speaker B: Yes, I guess you were too. [00:02:44] Speaker A: I just didn't think about it that way. [00:02:46] Speaker B: I don't. Maybe we shouldn't think about it that way. Anyways, we appreciate the concern. It's nice to have people ask if we're still gonna keep doing it. The answer is yes, we will finish. [00:02:58] Speaker A: Book of Mortal for sure. [00:03:00] Speaker B: You probably won't even notice, honestly, much of a difference at all, because luckily the technology at this point is ridiculous. If anything, there just might be a couple more little pauses, long, awkward pauses. [00:03:11] Speaker A: If l should I pop? [00:03:14] Speaker B: But the thing is, that's like our hold music. But the thing is, I also pride myself in being the producer of this podcast. And so I will also probably just go and trim a lot of the awkward pauses. There might just be a little bit of us accidentally talking on top of each other for a minute. [00:03:31] Speaker A: It'll be good. [00:03:32] Speaker B: I'm sure it'll be fine. All right, what are we doing? [00:03:35] Speaker A: This is fun. We get to bring up the conclusion to King Benjamin's speech. King Benjamin's speech is a phenomenal speech, I think fairly well known in the LDS community. This is Mosiah, chapters four through six. And there's a few things I kind of want to talk about as we're going through this. I think we had kind of a productive conversation on the way to the studio. We both kind of had our minds kind of kicking some of these scriptures around and thinking, you know, where do we want to go with this and what do we want to do? And I think there's a lot of kind of fun things to talk about before we, before we roll too far into this week. Just, just, I think it's even from last week when King Benjamin started his speech, something that stood out to me that I would like to mention. I think it's admirable when King Benjamin says that it's not meet, that you run faster than you have strength. And I don't think that's something that said enough. Cause I feel like we always beat ourselves up, that we're not doing enough, or, you know, you gotta thrust in that sickle, you gotta go in labor, you gotta do the work. But with King Benjamin, you get some balance in there. Yes, you do have to work, but it's not meet that. You run faster than you have strength, and you've gotta measure that. And you see, that even spill into this week when King Benjamin's talking about taking care of the poor and he says, if you don't have the means to take care of them, I would. That in your heart you're still saying, I would if I could. If I had the money, I would help them out. And, and yet he's still kind of giving you that out. Like it's, it's okay if you don't have money to support it. There, there is a balance. The Lord doesn't want you to have all of your family starving and not taking care of because you've given everything you can to try to take care of all of these strangers. I think I see some measure of prudence and wisdom with King Benjamin's approach to this. I just kind of wanted to float that out there. All right. This week, maybe we just lead in with this. And I know you've got some thoughts, too, Nate, so feel free to kind of weave these in however you want. But where I wanted to start with is King Benjamin. Boy, he talks about how you're less than the dust of the earth, and it doesn't matter how much you do, you're never going to pay your debt off. God created you, gave you life, and as soon as you do good, he repays you. And so you're always going to be in debt, and I'm profitable. Servant. So, still borrowing a little bit from last week, but it's, again, some of these things spill over into his conclusion, right? Because as he's addressing these people in Mosiah, chapter four, and they had viewed themselves in their own carnal state even less than the dust of the earth. And I look at how they refer to themselves and how they view themselves and how King Benjamin refers to them, and honestly, it surprises me a little bit. Like, how is this so inspirational? How is it that the people seem to be getting the right message with this? Like, yay, we are worthless. Yay, we are less than the dust of the earth, and we're insignificant, and we're okay with that. In fact, we're happy with that. And why are they taking hope and positivity out of a message that sounds like it's grinding them into the dust a little bit or even making them less significant than the dust? And isn't it King Benjamin that also says, hey, at least the dust obeys God? God says, do this, and the. But, like, you're not even. Or am I borrowing from a different prophet at that point? [00:07:33] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:07:36] Speaker A: Am I crossing my messages? But either way, the message still stands. Why is, why is there so much hope in a message that seems it to be grinding people down so much? [00:07:46] Speaker B: Yeah, there's definitely a certain, like, sect of the LDS community that would write this talk problematic and would write entire twitter threads about how the conference talk was way too mean. If these, if this was a conference talk given right now to this, I would say the same thing, which is like, maybe instead of correcting the apostles and prophets on the tone of their talk, maybe try to consider what it is they're trying to inspire inside of you. And to answer the question how I see it, because this jumped out to me, too. It's all about the follow through. It's sticking the dismount, because it's where King Benjamin goes after this that, I think is the key to unlocking why this works and is still inspirational. [00:08:48] Speaker A: You know, you talk about sticking that dismount and where he goes after this, and I think what you were referring to going after this is talking about the atonement of Christ and the creator of the world coming down and being willing to pay for their sins and having hope in the savior, right? [00:09:05] Speaker B: Yes. [00:09:06] Speaker A: But as you're saying that, I was even thinking the position of this. I know this is 400 years earlier at Benjamin's time, but for us, it's just a few pages earlier. If you go into Jacob five and the allegory of the olive tree, we're reading about these branches that are growing faster than the roots and the importance that the branches don't grow faster than the roots, have strength. And I'm looking at this message, and it's like these branches have been growing a little bit fast, and he's worried about the pace of which these branches are doing. I've got to humble them down a little bit, cut them down a little bit, and make sure that they're firmly attached to those roots and that those roots are growing as fast or faster to support the growth of those branches. [00:09:54] Speaker B: Correct. I also think, too, that we don't sometimes consider time and place for when we read things like this and the tone of something like this. You've played sports. You have children playing sports. A good coach knows time and place and personnel. Let's just say that, too, right? They know time, place, and personnel. I did really well with coaches that would get up in my face and be, you know, very challenging and very much like, I expect you to be better, so go out there and be better. And there could be people on the same team that if you were to do that, too, it would break them. And even then, a coach knows, too. Like, hey, after a crushing loss, it's maybe not the right time. Even to those kids that like, the challenge to go up and be like, you lose, or you should have been better, this is all on you. And instead know to go. Even. Even if they did blow it, to go and pick them up and be like, hey, keep your head up. You're great. This is all part of the process. And sometimes after a victory, to go and say, hey, before you guys get too far ahead of yourselves. There's still a lot of work that needs to be done right. Like, a good coach knows time, place, and personnel. So I do think that as we read these types of things, and to me, it's like, I do relate a lot of King Benjamin's. I do see it kind of through the lens of general conference, where you do have speeches that do feel a little bit like, hoorah. Kind of go team. Like, hey, that's great. It is good to have uplifting speeches. It's good to have. I mean, you're almost getting the whole gambit of it from Benjamin himself, right, of being the dust of the earth, but also being like, hey, but pick yourself up. We're all beggars. It's okay. We have, you know, it's like he kind of. He gives multiple conference speeches in one. But this is. I think that it's just healthy to remember, even with the conference talks, I kind of joke about it, but I'm serious about it at the same time. Like, it is. There really are people that watch conference only to be told that everything they're doing is great and it's okay and don't worry about it. Like, it's all just positive. It's all just love. It's all just uplifting. And then you're just like, okay, cool, whatever. I watch conference to go. Like, I'm sure that there's going to be some harrowing that is going to take place for me during some of this, and that's probably healthy, but that's my personality. I'm like, all right, come on, man. Give it to me straight. And I usually kind of end up appreciating those talks. I think sometimes more than just the feel good, hey, we're all doing okay talks, right? But it's like, do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so when I do read this, I think that the follow up, the dismount that I'm talking about, is important, because as we were talking about this, this is a couple of these verses out of context, are basically what Satan tries to tell you every time you blow it. You're nothing. You're the dust. Don't forget, give up. But that's the angle. [00:13:19] Speaker A: Profitable servant. You're never going to amount to anything. [00:13:22] Speaker B: But what is the adversary's punchline at the end of that give up, where it's important that Benjamin is coming and going. Look to the Lord, because that's how this is gonna work. You can't do this on your own merit, turn to him, be humble, because, you know, etcetera. [00:13:46] Speaker A: Yeah, he really seems to be driving a need or a desire for people to turn to God. And, you know, as you were talking about those conference talks, I'm trying to think of where I even heard it was a conference itself, where they're talking, a couple of the brethren with each other and saying, you know, when someone comes up to me afterwards, it says, I really enjoyed your talk, and be like, well, then you missed the point. And they didn't feel like the talks landed when people were enjoying what they were saying, per se, because a lot of times the talks were to get us to think or to get us to change or to get us to be a little bit different. Right. To feel that need or to feel that desire to be different. And. And you see, that's. That's one thing you see in Benjamin's speech, is that it was a catalyst to change, because now, all of a sudden, they had a change of heart. They had no more disposition to do evil. What. Whatever he did works to. To make them into a new person. And we've talked about this with baptism, this idea of crucifying the old person or burying the old person, and that death and rebirth, it feels like what he's done has inspired them to bury their old selves and come out of this a new person. [00:15:14] Speaker B: It's a really great point that we're talking specifically even about the dust of the earth. I mean, it very much is almost like. Like truly bury the old you, and I'll help you. You know, I'll kind of help. I'll help. I'll help smash you into the dust if that gets you to the place where, you know, you are at the most humble that you can be so that you're ready to rebuild correctly and. [00:15:44] Speaker A: At the same time, Adam was created from the dust of the earth. I mean, yeah, dust is humbling. Dust is pummeling and killing and death. Right. But also, it's creation. [00:15:54] Speaker B: It's the tabernacle of clay. That or. Yeah, I mean, yeah, totally. I'm in. I think it's good. I think that as I read it, I did laugh, because I was just like, oh, man. Like, Kumbaya, lds, Twitter would be all over this. They would be so mad. How dare you tell us that we need. We're not good enough? [00:16:17] Speaker A: I was like, well, and maybe that says a lot to the audience, right? To be able to take a message like that and find inspiration, to find opportunity to improve. Yeah. [00:16:31] Speaker B: I also just think we're soft as a society. But, yes, I'm just. I'm sorry I'm tiptoeing around it, but I'm not tiptoeing around. I think we're soft, but I think that there's something to be said. I think there's something to be said for being able to be told that not all of our behavior is acceptable and not all of the things that we do are acceptable and that there are boundaries. And as much as it might hurt somebody's feelings to hear it, like, you know, not everything is great. Not everything is good. Not all behavior is awesome. And even though I do believe that, thank goodness, by the way, that God's patience for us is just incredibly, incredibly durable, I also think that at a certain point, he's like, step it up. You know, I taught at a charter school for quite some time, and I remember the first thing that I was told by the. I guess not the superintendent, the director of our program was, when you expect and demand greatness, it inspires greatness. Like, I mean, it was a very. It's like, from the very first thing he's just said, don't ever become comfortable with mediocrity, even if you don't think that the student can do it. Inspire them by your high expectations for them and by not letting them be casual. And he's like, it'll blow your mind how they will aspire to reach those expectations that you have for them. And I was never disappointed by that. [00:18:20] Speaker A: And I get that. I'm curious. How does Benjamin convey that message? Where does that come across in between? If you serve him all the days of your life, you would still be an unprofitable servant, and you're never going to amount to anything. How does he transfer or convey that message? How does he take that from point a to inspiring you to try to do hard things? [00:18:54] Speaker B: For me, time and place in this situation feels like. The tone of this feels like is that things were probably fairly good for everybody at the time, right? I mean, it talks about. It talks about. They clearly weren't living under a tyrannical government. [00:19:13] Speaker A: They had great leadership. [00:19:14] Speaker B: They had great leadership, by the way, protection. I mean, it talks about King Benjamin even out there with a sword. [00:19:21] Speaker A: They just barely reclaimed Zarahemla from the Lamanites, so they've won some battles. They're coming off of victory. They've kicked the enemy out of their land, reestablished their borders. [00:19:32] Speaker B: This, to me, I'm just going to tell you how the tone of this reads to me. Then right. Kind of setting up for this is that. This is the team that just won a pretty hard victory in basketball, right? This is a team. This is a team that's in the locker room doing massive high fives. Hey. Like, we've, you know, we've. We've accomplished hard things. We've just won back some land and a coach comes in and says, hey, okay, okay, okay. There's still a lot of work that we need to do. This wasn't the finish line. This wasn't the goal. You gotta remember, there's still a lot of stuff for us. It feels. It feels more like in context of that than in later scriptures where, you know, where the. Whatever the situation is that there's. Everybody's in despair and it's like, no, no, no, look to God. He's going to save us. It feels similar to, like, in Alma when he. I believe. Yeah. When Alma has to go and basically chastise the church and just say, like, cool. You've got money, you've got your fancy apparel, you've got all these things, yet you're kicking out the poor among you. You're not letting them come into your place. You know what I mean? It's just time and place, man. And so how he gets to. I'm just saying, like, we read this and it's maybe hard for us to go, hey, where is this inspirational when he's just, like, pummeling him into the dirt? But I'm like. I guess I'm just saying I can't make that. I don't know for sure because I still don't fully understand the time and place that this is being given to them at. And it makes it seem like, too, that they already were having these feelings up to this point themselves. Right. It feels like the spirit had already been doing quite a bunch of this work to it. It really more feels like King Benjamin's just kind of aware of that and verbalizing it more than anything. [00:21:33] Speaker A: Yeah, it does. It does feel like that he's expressing what they're already feeling and they're feeling what he's expressing. I mean, it's just hitting. It's hitting hard. And they're catching that message. And I've gone through and read King Benjamin's speech and I've been kind of puzzling over these same questions and wondering, why does this work and how does this work? To me? I've made kind of an interesting connection that maybe is a little bit out there, maybe a little bit different. And I see King Benjamin's speech. Almost like the book of Song of Solomon, which is kind of a weird place to take this. [00:22:11] Speaker B: I can't wait for where you're taking this. [00:22:13] Speaker A: I'm nervous about where I'm taking. [00:22:15] Speaker B: No, I'm not. I'm not at all. I'm not soft. I practice what I preach, baby. [00:22:23] Speaker A: You know, boy, just be ready. Just be ready with that edit button in case things get out of hand. Not. [00:22:30] Speaker B: I'm not even gonna look. In fact, I'm gonna turn the screen off. Let it roll, baby. Let him cook. [00:22:40] Speaker A: It's kind of a weird connection to make on this. And. And I remember. I remember having a discussion with the missionary when. When I was young, out there in my first area and down in Mexico, and we were at a stake center for a general conference, and we were in the stake offices, and I don't even know how the subject came up. I don't even know why we were talking about it. But what one of the elder missionaries is about done with his time there. He might have been a. An AP or. I don't even know. Right. He was. He was an older guy, and he's older guy. It's kind of funny you say that. Missionaries are like, 21. You seem like you're ancient when you're six months apart. Right? But anyways, he's laying down some wisdom about how sex is only for having kids, that there's no purpose for intimacy outside of procreation, for producing and revisiting, creating the world, that there should be no enjoyment in this and that it's not for couples. And I'm like, wait a second. And he says that the birth control, for example, is a sin and it shouldn't be used and it shouldn't be part of marriages. [00:23:55] Speaker B: And what kind of Catholicism was this? [00:23:57] Speaker A: It was. It was straight up. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait. Where is this coming from? And I'm like, I don't. I haven't been raised that way. I didn't think that that was the way things were. And here we are in the stake offices, there's a copy of the handbook of instructions. Maybe we should look at this and just see where this is going. And in the handbook of instructions, it talks about how intimacy is for couples to express love and to build that bonding and not just for the purpose of having kids. And so I'm like, look, handbook of instructions right here. I don't. But, you know, he didn't agree, and I didn't see eye to eye with him. And, I mean, that was the end of it. Where am I going with this? [00:24:44] Speaker B: I'm with you so far. [00:24:45] Speaker A: When Joseph Smith is translating the Bible and he's doing his inspired translations, he gets the song of Solomon and he puts a note on it, says not inspired, and he skips the book and keeps going. [00:25:02] Speaker B: Does that mean, just out of curiosity, do we know if that means that he wasn't inspired or if he was saying that that book wasn't inspired? [00:25:08] Speaker A: It's interpreted to mean that he was saying that that book was not inspired. [00:25:12] Speaker B: Not that he wasn't inspired. [00:25:13] Speaker A: Not that he wasn't inspired. It's just like, there's not a lot of value in this. All right, I'm going to skip it and keep going. Okay. He didn't feel like it was worth his time to try to dig through and try to fix the translation. Okay, fast forward. Bruce R. McConkie takes that one step forward and says, not only is it not inspired, but it's biblical trash. [00:25:34] Speaker B: Of course he does. [00:25:35] Speaker A: Right? [00:25:36] Speaker B: We love you, Bruce, but. Okay. [00:25:41] Speaker A: I feel like I'm just. [00:25:42] Speaker B: No digging. [00:25:43] Speaker A: Keep going. [00:25:44] Speaker B: Nope, keep going. We will see this through to the other side and then I'll decide if I'm cutting it out. Keep going. [00:25:53] Speaker A: So the church comes from as far as its foundation goes. I mean, obviously it comes from Christ coming and restoring the gospel here on. Here on earth, but he restored the gospel here in the United States and in the United States history. You're coming from Puritans and you're coming from. Even these Protestants are pushing back, are still coming from Catholicism. That's right where they looked at original sin as intimacy. And that that intimacy is sinful. It's a necessary evil to be able to have kids. But outside of that, it's. It's bad. And it's bad that you enjoy it. The fact that you enjoy it. You're sinning. And so they looked at it as a very wrong, a very dirty, a very negative thing, and it becomes harmful. Right. So how then did we end up with a bible that has the song of Solomon in it? And I think that's a good question. And you look at the Puritans and they talked about how this book should be thrown away. It shouldn't be part of the scriptures. You look at Joseph Smith saying it's not inspired. You look at Bruce R. McConkie calling it biblical trash. And I think you see the roots of where we've come. And I think you've seen the work of an adversary who's trying to take something so special, so sacred and degrade it and to break it down and to destroy it. And I think it's at the heart of things. And I'm trying to get back to how this applies to King Benjamin. If you're still following me, hang in there. I promise I'm going to try to make that connection. Whether or not it lands is. It's fine. [00:27:47] Speaker B: Keep going up for discussion. Keep going. [00:27:52] Speaker A: So in the doctrine and covenants, in the doctrine covenants, it quotes the Song of Solomon three times. And I would say this, Joseph Smith is writing doctrine covenants, but he's writing the revelations and God speaking to him. If Joseph Smith felt like that book wasn't inspired and didn't take the time to translate it, then I would pause it and say, joseph Smith is not the one that's writing the words of Song of Solomon in doctrine and covenants. He wouldn't use something uninspired to try to convey the message of inspiration from a divine being. I think that God is using the words from Song of Solomon, and I think he's kicking back on that idea of it not being inspired. What is the purpose of Song of Solomon? Why is it in there and why is it still being quoted in modern scripture? And I think it bucks against some ideas that we have similarly to what King Benjamin is trying to do and break down some of the. The ideas and the mistaken ideas that we have. So we go back and we look at what this book is, and it's poetry. It's a love letter. [00:29:15] Speaker B: We actually have a whole special episode on Songs of Solomon that you should go back and listen to sometime. [00:29:20] Speaker A: Yeah, we actually refused to skip it and did a bonus episode. [00:29:24] Speaker B: Not only did we refuse to skip it, but we absolutely leaned into it. And I actually feel like added a lot of clarity and showed a lot of importance for that because I really would encourage anybody willing to. To go back and listen to that episode. [00:29:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I think there's value in this, and I think that what God is conveying, why this is in the scriptures, why this survived pushback from the Jews, why it survived pushback from Christianity, why it survived pushback from even early history of the LDS Church, the Puritans, and how it survived even in Lds canon today, even with Bruce Armaconki calling it biblical trash, yet we still have it right. I think the value in this goes to the relationship between Solomon and his lover is not a relationship based on duty and obligation. It's based on genuine love. And this love is expressing itself in a lot of ways in enjoyment. I enjoy you I enjoy your physical presence. I enjoy being with you. I enjoy. And so when we go back to the relationship that we have with God, and I do think that this is symbolic of the relationship that we have with God, there should be a sense of joy and love similar to what you see with two people passionately in love with each other in our relationship. There is a reason why God describes his relationship with Israel over and over and over again through all of the scriptures as a relationship between a husband and a wife. It's not just the song of Solomon. It's a wedding feast that we're waiting for at the end. It's a wedding relationship and a bride and a groom throughout the entirety of the scriptures. And so I think song of Solomon hits it on the head. And I think King Benjamin's point is saying, you think that you can pay back God and try to balance these scales like a business relationship. You think that your relationship with God is something that you're performing purely out of duty. He did this, so now I have to do that, and it's my obligation to try to do this. And I can get ahead and serve him even greater by doing all of this. And it's a loveless relationship. It's a relationship built on. I have to perform this, this, this, and these are necessary and necessary evils. [00:32:18] Speaker B: And. [00:32:18] Speaker A: And I'm not necessarily enjoying the relationship. And I think we get into this and it almost turns religion and church kind of what we've almost destroyed it and made it into being this idea that, you know, we have to sit there through sacraments, stiff collars, folded arms and. Yes, and what is reverence? Right. And we take this idea and try to force this, this relationship out of obligation. [00:32:52] Speaker B: Also, if you read, and we kind of talked about this earlier, did Christ suffer for us only out of duty and obligation? I don't think so, no. I think he genuinely loves us, too. [00:33:11] Speaker A: That's it. I think that's what makes this work for Benjamin is because he's trying to knock down the idea that you owe it to God to do this. You owe it to God. You have to do this, that God is some omnipotent being that we have to. [00:33:34] Speaker B: I don't know, flog ourselves on the back and be miserable. And it's duty only. No, I mean, the thing is, there is, I mean, we've all seen it, whether it be on missions or in callings or something, that, like this idea that to be, I don't know, dutifully doing something, you almost have to be like, suffering and miserable at the same time. At least that, unfortunately, I've been in those situations where it's like, we must not be doing it right if we're not just in pain. And I'm going to. I don't know. I read the scripture that says, like, Adam fell, that men might be and men are, that they might have joy. Like, I always consider that fairly important. And what I think that I kind of have gotten out of this, and I'm glad that you've gone there and that we're talking about this, is because I do also like breaking down the idea that, yeah, the duty or obligation should be the things that drive us to do good things or be obedient or act right, and it should be basically due to your obligation to the point of genuine fear of just, like, punishment in return. I guess what I like about the speech from King Benjamin is that we talked about, well, where does King Benjamin eventually land with this? And so much of it is back to the idea that Christ loved us enough that even though we aren't, that even though we truly are just like temples of clay, we're the dust of the earth, truly. That's what we become. That's where we're from. That the most powerful being in the entire universe cares about us enough to come and redeem us still. And that is an inspirational message. I get freaked out, man, when I think of the size of the universe. I'm not joking. It truly freaks me out. You know how, like, the Neil Tyson degrasse dude or whatever? [00:35:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:35:54] Speaker B: He'll be like, let's look at where you are in the cosmic neighborhood. And I'm like, I don't want to do this, right? It's like, here you are on earth, here's your city, and then you zoom back. It's like, here's what your country looks like, the landmass they drawn. It's like, just let's see how far away the moon is. And it just starts to zoom back, and then it starts zooming back to where, like, our galaxy is just a tiny little speck. Spin wheel, man. It's a speck. And at this point, I'm usually like. I'm having, like, a panic attack because I just. I can't. To me, it's just like, my brain can't fathom this, right? And it just stresses me out. And so, to me, it's like, it's one way or the other. When you understand your place in the universe, you're going to feel like nothing, because, bro, when our universe is just a speck, truly, what are we? We're like nothing. That's a depressing thought. What's it unremarkably like? Or not unremarkably? Our lives are unremarkably like this little blip along the way. What's remarkable, though, is that all of that space, of all, in all of that space, we are still the most important thing to the creator. We are his work in his glory. Like, of all of that space, we're still the things that are the most important things. Even though we are those tiny little specks, God still sees us as the reason for all of this. It's like, what's more inspiring than that for me? Like that's. It's pretty incredible, man. [00:38:03] Speaker A: You know, Ezra Taft Benson said, when obedience ceases to be an irritant and becomes our quest, that moment God will endow us with power. And I think that's a similar message to what I'm trying to hit at with the song of Solomon. What I think, president, what I think King Benjamin is talking about here when the reason we do it is not motivated out of some debt or some responsibility or some, you know, XYZ, but genuinely, it's our desire, our love that we're. We. We want to do it out of. Out of the goodness of our own hearts like that because we love him, because he loved us. Because there's something more to this relationship than just, you owe me a favor. Now. Why did he create us? Like you're saying, why are we the center of his attention when we are less than anything and we look at the scope and the size and the expanse and yet he cares so much about us. Why? It's not because, I mean, I guess it all comes back to love. And I think that's King Benjamin's message. I think it's this humility, the sense of. He's not saying. He's not saying, think less of yourself, but think of yourself less. Stop being so important in your own eyes and start considering this relationship that you have with God and how special it is. And don't do it because it's an irritant and you feel like you have to do something you don't want to do when going to church is something that's irritating. And, you know, I think we've all felt that before. We've all been there. But how do we mature in that relationship to where, honestly, I come because I love God and I'm excited to show him my devotion because I'm grateful for what he gave to me, or. [00:40:14] Speaker B: Even more so, like, I enjoy going to church for myself. I don't think that that's wrong, right? Like, I don't even feel like, I don't even feel like. I think not. I mean, maybe I do sometimes. I don't feel like in general, I think even to myself, like, man, I'm. I'm really excited to go to church today to show God my devotion. I think I'm really excited to go to church today because I love going to church, and I love how I feel when I go to church, and I love seeing my friends at church, and I love that my kids are excited to go to primary, and I love teaching my class. And isn't that literally what we're talking about right now? Like, there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with me going to church because I love to go to church, because I feel good, because I enjoy myself. [00:41:13] Speaker A: It's fascinating, because you talk about how King Benjamin's words, as inspiring as they are, are they not also the same as the devil saying that you amount to nothing? Right. And I think with what you're even saying right here, selfishness. But isn't selfishness also what motivates us men are that they might have joy. Isn't it our desire, isn't it our happiness that drives us to God, that drives us to feel these things? That drives us to. I mean, are we being selfish in seeking God? Are we being selfish in. [00:41:49] Speaker B: Oh, man, we want to get some Ayn Rand objectivism philosophy going on the show, the morality of selfishness. Oh, my goodness. But, I mean, there is an interesting conversation to be had there. I know that Ayn Rand takes it a little bit further than most people are comfortable with, but not me, because I'm not soft. But it is interesting. It is interesting because some of the questions that would be posed to her on her philosophy of objectivism would be, well, how do you consolidate or balance out the idea of being in any sort of a relationship with somebody else if it's just a selfish transaction? And she says, no, no, no. I very much love my husband very selfishly because of the joy that he brings into my life. And what I realize is that the more I put into giving in this relationship, the better. The more he's willing to give back to me. And still, therefore, you know what I mean? Still, therefore, I am. I am absolutely looking out for my happiness. And I realize that as much as I try to make him happy, he's so much more motivated to add to my happiness. And I'm like, oh, that's funny. She was even able to like, bail out of that. You know what I mean? She was actually able to argue out of that one. But a lot of this idea is, aren't we told we're supposed to be building mansions on high? Like, aren't we? Isn't the whole point of what we're supposed to be doing with some sort of an idea of that there is going to be rewards without end and eternal progression and that we're going to get to live with our families forever and that we're going to get. It's like, isn't the whole point of this we're doing? We're putting in the work now to be. Isn't the song like dream of our mansions on high? [00:43:59] Speaker A: Let me take you that one step, please. What is it that motivated Enos to say his prayer? When he's thinking on the words of his father and he ponders on the joy of the saints, it's that joy that really gets him thinking. Like, how do I get this happiness? How do I get this joy? How do I find this enjoyment in there? [00:44:25] Speaker B: And so this is. I appreciate you bringing this up. And this is why I think this is a really interesting conversation. And it's because so much of what Christ taught was. I mean, even with King Benjamin taught. Let's just stay with King Benjamin. When you're in the service of your fellow beings, you're only in the service of your God, right? Like, very much of this is serve, get out in the dirt. You know what I mean? Don't make people serve you, the whole thing. Right? So, yes, I guess I'm just saying I can see where there can sometimes be the conflict of if we're supposed to be just completely selfless in all of our worship and in all of our do gooding, does that seem hypocritical for us to be then also at the same time doing it so that there will be some sort of reward on the other side for me? I guess I personally don't see the conflict between those two things because. [00:45:30] Speaker A: I. [00:45:30] Speaker B: Think that what people miss out on the understanding of this is I feel great when I'm serving other people. Like when I kind of let go of my kind of day to day. Here's what I want and here's what I want to get done. Here's what I think is going to make me happy. And you go out and you stupid stuff, take the garbages in for your neighbor. It's a natural law that, that feels good. You're like, oh, I think I just did something good. When you go and spend time with somebody that needs a friend, all of these things, it's like, all of these things, inevitably, I feel like, at least for me, like, even when it's hard, maybe physically or it's hard to find the time, like, who doesn't feel better when they've made somebody's day a little bit better? And so I guess where I just, I guess I reject the premise of the idea that it's not joyous to serve other people, and it's not, it's a painful thing to be doing that thing. And so I guess for me, I find joy in that. And I also am hopefully dreaming of mansions on high at the same time. I don't know. [00:46:52] Speaker A: Well, we've been talking a lot of philosophy, and you said something right there I think that we can use to maybe ground this a little bit, make it real. When you talked about, like, bringing in the neighbor's garbage can. And I think we can take that example and try to take it to what Benjamin's talking about and see if we can't take this philosophy and kind of just pull it all together. And I see this as if I see my neighbor's garbage can out and I'm excited about this opportunity to go bring it in just so that I can rub it in his face or I can hold it over his head, right? And I take that can, I pull it back there? And then I'm going to go write down on my piece of paper, like, what day I did it and what time I did it, so I can remember and I can create this list of things, and I can say, like, look at how good I was at being his neighbor, right? I think that's what Benjamin's talking about when he's saying, you will never be a profitable servant. All of the things that you think you're doing that are getting you ahead, giving you that favor, giving you that, all that, all the garbage cans that you're pulling in or all the little things that you're trying to take a note just to show how good a person you are. It's like, that's never going to amount to the joy, the pleasure, the happiness, the fulfilling relationship with God that you're looking for. There needs to be a change. And in order for that change to happen, that person needs to be ground down into the dust. I need to destroy that person. That person has to die. And I think, like, to take this full circle with what Benjamin's talking about, he is killing the audience. He is destroying them. He is telling them that they're less than nothing because that mindset has to die and they have to be born again. Now, go back to the example of the neighbor and. And you're not thinking, boy, I'm trying to one up, or I'm trying to look like the best person in the block, or I'm trying to gain some favor, but you're like, oh, man, they're probably not going to be home for a few days. I wish someone would do this for me. Now, you're doing it genuinely because you care about that person. And I think that's what's tying this back in my mind to even Song of Solomon. He's not writing this note because he's trying to gain some sort of favor, some sort of edge or being manipulative or trying to play mind games. He's letting his emotions just flood out on the paper. This is. I'm motivated by. And this is what I think's happening with this people, a change of heart. That person that was trying to gain favor or think that somehow they could earn exaltation or somehow they could earn their way into heaven with all of these little favors and say, see all these things that I did for you, God, now I'm good. I'm killing that person. We're burying him in the dust, and. And we're replacing it with a new heart, a new motivation. And a heart is something that's at the center, the core, what drives the person. And that's where I think it blends so well with Song of Solomon, because it's. It's what's driving him. It's his motivation. It's gushing out. I want to help you. And you even see that. I wish I could help you. I want to. I have that feeling. I have that desire to help you, but I don't have the means to. If you even say that, it's counted as righteous. And, you know, in that verse, in that verse, he even drops a little bit of a hint on this. If we go back to where he says, I would, that you say that I would if I. If I could. Right? It's in Mosiah, chapter four, verse 25. And now if you say this in your hearts, you remain guiltless. Otherwise, you are condemned. And what, again, is he saying in his heart? I got to go to the end of verse 24. I give not because I have not, but if I had, I would give. And now if you say this in your heart, you remain guiltless. Otherwise you're condemned. And this is where I think it's super fascinating. This last line. And your condemnation is just for ye. Covet that which you have not received. I'm like, wait a second. You're saying that if they say, if they don't give because they don't have, but they're not saying in their hearts, if I had, I would give, then they're coveting. And see, for me that coveting is the change. Right? Like, why are they coveting? Well, I wouldn't give to him because I want it so much. I would keep it for myself. And he can see through that and he can call that out. Right? That's the old person. That's what he's trying to kill. If I could somehow earn favor with God and earn my way into heaven by paving it, by doing all of these things, I'm coveting heaven versus I love God for what he did for me. And it's flowing this natural. I don't know. [00:51:54] Speaker B: Do you think part of this too is, and this is kind of, this is maybe taken a step back too, of what we were talking about before, but I think that if people. I think that if people were to, or person were to in their mind, be, I'm going to do good now solely so that I can have rewards in the next life, what kind of actions do you think that they would actually be performing in this life? Like, I think that the irony of this whole thing is like, I just, I wonder. I wonder what those things would even be. [00:52:38] Speaker A: It's a good question because Mormon hits that really hard on the head, right? He says that when he says that a, a bad tree can't produce good fruit, neither can a good fruit produce. A good tree produce bad fruit. [00:52:48] Speaker B: Yes, but it's like you almost look at the Pharisees, right? It's like the Pharisees. It almost felt like there was this idea that if we perform a certain ceremony enough times, a certain way, or if we find ways to do every detail, no matter how tedious and miserable they actually are, we're doing that so that we can almost say we're superior to you in what we are building in the next life. Like we're really racking up points in the big picture, but, like, what meaningful good deeds were being done by them? [00:53:32] Speaker A: You know, it almost seems like actually they're building the Tower of Babel. [00:53:35] Speaker B: I mean, I'm glad you bring this up. That's exactly right. It's like, it's like they're almost building. They're almost building the fake mansions, right? They're almost building the. Yeah, the Tower of Babel, where they. It's the idea that our actions alone are gonna be able to get us there. My thing is that, like you said, not philosophically, but boots to the ground. I feel like. I feel like when we do things out of genuine love in this life, it is. It's nice. I think part of the reason that we feel good is because we just don't have to be stressing out about what's going to happen in the next life more than deliberately thinking, like, oh, man, I just put, like, some nice mahogany doors on my mansion. You know, it's like, instead of thinking that, I think that so much of. I think that the spirit constantly rewards us with peace and with joy in this life. And as I have said over and over and over, the thing that I feel the most from the spirit is peace and calm amongst the storm. Right. That's a big deal to me. And I think that that actually relates to the next life, too. Again, in the song of the dream of the mansions on high, I'm kind of using that jokingly, but it is funny that that is the line from the song, the hymn. But I guess I'm just saying, like, I feel like I'm not having to wait until the next life to already start receiving so much of the happiness and the joy and the rewards. And if anything, I think maybe it's just a calmness of, like, oh, when I'm doing the right things here, I feel peace here, and I'm not stressed out about what's gonna happen in the next life. Like, oh, yeah, that stuff will sort itself out. So anyways, I just wanted to. I didn't wanna leave that hanging too much because I was thinking, I don't think it works the other way. I don't think it works going, man, I'm really worried about the next life, so I'm gonna go and do a bunch of good things here. It's like, people sniff through that all the time, you know, like, you can tell when somebody shows up to your house out of obligation and it kind of never works. Right, right. It didn't work on a mission. Like, it didn't work on a mission when, you know, if, heaven forbid, you kind of were around people that were almost just salesmen and kind of could say the right things and the person after could be like, man, that person just felt like they were trying to sell me on something instead of hopefully a, hey, here's what I have found to be true and bring me happiness. But you and I are going to be friends whether or not you ever decide to get baptized or not because I'm so glad we got to meet and we're friends, and I love you, and I'll be here for you one way or the other. It's like, you know what I mean? It's like that's. [00:56:36] Speaker A: It's a change of heart. [00:56:38] Speaker B: The process of that, I feel like is important. And I don't think there's anything wrong with also wanting to feel confidence that the next life is also gonna be, you know, secure, you know? [00:56:53] Speaker A: And interesting enough, when you bring up the mansions and the next life, I think, I think a lot of that actually comes from a mistranslation when, when we're talking about the New Testament. And he says, in my father's house, there are many mansions. And really, the word there is rooms. And I go to prepare a room. What is that talking about? And this goes back to the groom. When the groom goes to get married with the bride, he has to prepare a room, and his father has to approve of the room. He's got to go and prepare a bridal chamber in his father's house. Right. He's preparing this bridal chamber to bring them together. Yeah. And I think it's unfortunate that we've taken that verse and says, there's many mansions in my father's house. And we think, oh, well, heaven's got all of these mansions. When the whole point of the story wasn't the reward isn't having a mansion on high. The reward is having a relationship with God and not. Not a relationship. [00:57:57] Speaker B: Translation works so much better. [00:57:59] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's not a relationship of servant slave. It's not a relationship of, oh, I have to do this in order to. It's a relationship like Solomon. It's one that flows naturally from us. It's one where we know him and he knows us and we enjoy that. It's that peace that you're talking about, Nate. [00:58:21] Speaker B: And just as important is that hopefully your family's there, too. And the actual relationships that mean something from this life as well. That works so much better, by the way, too, than building a house. Because to be totally honest with you, yeah. A house in the next life doesn't stoke me at all, right? Me trying to do what I need to in this life to change and be a person that can live with my family for the rest of eternity. Like, yeah, that to me, by the way. Like, that just feels like a perfect and beautiful and worthy thing to want and to seek after. Right. And not who can get the bigger mansion in the next life, you know, like who can build the cooler kingdom in the next life by doing enough good things down here. It's like, yeah, I can see where that rubs a little bit. Yeah, that does seem actually kind of a little bit contradictory, you wanting to live with God and your family. I'm like, yeah, of course. That's the whole point. I don't know. That makes so much more sense. I'm glad you brought that up. [00:59:34] Speaker A: Kind of the ceiling, right. And ceiling happening in a temple. And I think even again, in the temple, you don't discuss what happens in the temple because of the sacred nature of it. And in the temple, you're piercing the veil. You're going through the veil, you're going into a special room, you're entering into the presence of God. You're having this special relationship. And I think that relationship, the closest thing we have to it is the relationship between spouses and the intimacy that they share, not out of obligation or a sense of duty. It's not a sin. And they're not just doing it in order to bring life into the world, but for oneness, for closeness, for. For love, for each other. And. And it's. I don't know. I think that's the change that KIng Benjamin's doing, is trying to talk to the people and get them to kill the old person that has. I mean, you said it really good at the beginning, Nate, when you talked about sports and, and this locker room event, right? When you took a context and time, they've come off of these victories. They think that they're doing a great job. And you've got to remember God. You've got to go back and tear things down a little bit and have that change of heart and keep that perspective and always remember him. And when we start talking about these things of crucifying the old person and killing them and burying him in the dust 6ft under the ground and rising again as a new person, what are we talking about? We're talking about something very similar to a baptismal covenant, which has that same symbolism when we talk about always remember God, to have that intimate relationship with him, to be the bride and him the groom and coming together and always remember him. It sounds like we're talking about the sacrament covenant. We're talking about this relationship with God and getting to know him and entering into his presence. We're talking about these temple covenants. What King Benjamin is doing in this is walking the people through a covenant path. And it states it explicitly, because at the end of this, the culmination of this speech, is the covenant in Mosiah, chapter five, verse seven. And now, because of the covenant which ye have made, ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons and his daughters. For, behold, this day hath he spiritually begotten you. For you say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name. Therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters. And under his head you are made free. And there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. And so this is. This is establishing a covenant RelationShip. And it's walking people through the Covenant path, and it's bringing this relationship and bringing this people. They will be his people and he will be their God, and they're going to enjoy this oneness and this Natural relationship. And when we're talking about this covenant, I don't think this Covenant is new with Benjamin. I mean, it's new in a sense that he's introducing it, he's bringing it to these people. But it's the same covenant that God has been making with his people from the beginning of time. And Benjamin here, I think, does us a lot of favors by being very explicit and talking about how this CovenaNt CAn be established. He says that the creator of the world, God, is GoinG to come to the earth and be made flesh, and he is going to be crucified and pay the price of sins to establish this covenant. But if we want to go back at this covenant relationship and how God has worked with his people in the past, let's start with Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve partake of the fruit. They sin and they become naked. And God establishes a covenant with them to cover them up, to atone for them by sacrificing an animal and making coats of skin to cover their nakedness. Think about this relationship and this covenant that God first makes with Adam and Eve. As a parent, when your kid makes a mistake, say he spills a bowl of cereal on the floor, aren't we usually trying to get our kids to clean up their mess, to pay the consequences, to show responsibility, to take accountability and try to make things right on their own? If that's the case, though, in this covenant relationship, how come God isn't telling Adam and Eve? You make the sacrifice, you make the coats of skin. You cover yourselves. Instead, go back and read Genesis. The Lord made the coats of skin for Adam and Eve. The Lord paid the price for their sins. The covenant from the beginning was that the Lord was going to come here on earth and pay the price for their sins. Go to. Fast forward to Abraham when he makes that covenant with Abraham, and they divide those animals and they split those on either side. And it's the Lord that goes between the meat. It was God, that burning furnace and that pillar of smoke, just like he guided him out of the land of Egypt, right later on, that symbol of God going between those pieces of meat, saying, I will come to the earth. I will be ripped, I will be torn, I will die. And pay the price for your sins in order to establish you. So this covenant king, Benjamin, is relying on the same covenant pattern that God had established with Abraham, that God had established with Adam, which God had established with Noah. And restoring that to his people again, you will be God's people, and God will come here, and he will pay that price. And seeing how great and wonderful he is, turning their hearts to them and creating this covenant relationship. And what is the ultimate covenant relationship? Is it not being sealed? Sealed to our spouse, sealed to God. It's a very intimate, personal relationship in which we express a deep desire and love, and our hearts are changed and turned to him. That is what I think Benjamin's creating with this covenant path and this discussion with his people. Cool. [01:06:07] Speaker B: Anything else? [01:06:11] Speaker A: I think maybe real quick on a note, we remember in the last of omni that the last of Jacob's line, his brother goes up to the land of Nephi with Zenith and his people, and he doesn't see him anymore. And he wonders what happens, right? And he doesn't have anyone else to give the plates to because his line has come to an end. We see kind of this end of Jacob's line. And Jacob was this priestly line consecrated by Nephi. So he takes the plates and he gives them up to Mosiah, Benjamin. And the line kind of switches over there. When Benjamin establishes this covenant relationship with his people, the priestly line has kind of died and dried up. There is no more priestly line. So what do we see Benjamin doing in this? At the same time that he's telling them that Mosiah is going to be their next king, their political leader. He's also consecrating priests and starting a new priestly line to kind of make up for what we've lost with, with Jacob's line, which I think is also fascinating because Jacob's line, although it dries up here with the Nephites, remember, his brother does go up with Zenith and his people into this other land, which is going to have a role to play when we see Noah and his priests, because they do have that same priestly line. So we'll see kind of these priestly lines interweave throughout the Book of Mormon. I find that continuity kind of interesting in some of those tie ins. We'll see it again when Alma brings the people back and they reunite. And now they're going to go through and, and they've got these different priestly lines and try to rectify and consolidate and have this new priestly line that they're going to go down. [01:07:52] Speaker B: Cool. We appreciate you listening. Send any questions or comments to hi Deepdive.com. We always enjoy hearing from you. We try to respond as much as we possibly can to everybody in a timely manner. We will continue to try to do so. Thanks again for all of the reviews that we get, for the comments that we get, and for the feedback that we just get kind of day to day. We appreciate it. Appreciate you listening. Until next week.