Genesis 37 – 41 (Re-run)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the Add On Education Network. The podcast where we take a look at the weekly Come follow me discussion and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here in the studio with my friend and this show's producer, Nate Pifer. [00:00:32] Speaker B: What's up? [00:00:33] Speaker A: Hey, Nate. [00:00:34] Speaker B: How are you doing, buddy? [00:00:35] Speaker A: Oh, fantastic. [00:00:37] Speaker B: A little tired. [00:00:38] Speaker A: Oh, gee, it's been a long week. [00:00:40] Speaker B: Been a long week, baby. But excited to do it. [00:00:42] Speaker A: I'm excited. This is going to be a lot of fun. I made a mistake last week thinking because we finished in Genesis chapter 34. Was it that the next chapter 35. We're going to get into Dinah and her trouble with the people of Shechem when Levi and Simeon kind of do their thing with circumcision and slaughtering the city. [00:01:06] Speaker B: Wait, so we are not going to [00:01:06] Speaker A: talk about this for whatever reason, and I guess I can understand it. I can respect it. The church has decided to skip over those chapters. So I said that was next and we can mention it and maybe we can do a bonus episode at some point where we. Where we talk about it a little bit more if there. If there is anything to talk about there. [00:01:30] Speaker B: I mean, is there anything to talk about there? [00:01:32] Speaker A: It's a weird story. It's definitely a weird story. And maybe we'll just give it a quick recap because it does come into play a little bit with what we're talking about this week. [00:01:43] Speaker B: Let's just at least explain so that. So that people know we're talking about and why it would make sense later than in what we're doing. [00:01:50] Speaker A: Perfect. And they also skipped over a whole chapter of begatting. [00:01:54] Speaker B: What? [00:01:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And it's okay now. [00:01:59] Speaker B: This cannot stand. [00:02:04] Speaker A: And it's Esau. A whole chapter is dedicated to Esau going through his whole begetting. It's kind of cool that he gets a whole chapter to himself, like a tip to the hat, like, Esau, we know you were awesome and you're part of this, but you're not the main character of the story. So we'll give you your moment in the spotlight and we're moving on. [00:02:26] Speaker B: Okay? Okay. [00:02:28] Speaker A: And we also had a question last week, and maybe we should dive into the question and then quickly recap our dinadina, however you want to say it with the Shechemites. [00:02:39] Speaker B: I think we could probably do both. [00:02:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I heard both ways. [00:02:42] Speaker B: I think the thing is, I would imagine that for the most part, those of you that are listening or our listeners are Definitely trying to get some perspective on the come follow me lessons, but also just interested in the stories of the Old Testament and kind of the reasons behind. So at least I am, you know, and I understand that the church is skipping that stuff, but I'd prefer personally that we still get into some of this stuff and talk about it because it is in the book. [00:03:09] Speaker A: It is in the book. I agree. I like, I just, full disclosure, love to go through everything in here, for better or for worse. [00:03:17] Speaker B: I mean, let's at least go through some stuff. And then again, a good question that we had this week that would be, I think, important also to discuss. [00:03:23] Speaker A: Absolutely. Let's start with the question then. So the question is, when we were talking about Jacob and Esau in two places in the Bible, you get it in Malachi and you get it again in the New Testament, it says God loved Jacob, but he hated Esau. And how we told the story and this idea of redemption for Jacob, redemption for Esau, and this coming together and Jacob comparing seeing the face of his brother as if he had seen the face of God. And we also talked about the story of impersonating the firstborn. How Jacob dressed up like Esau was very similar to. As we're taking the sacrament, we impersonate the Savior, we decide that we're going to follow him, we're going to behave as he would behave, take his body, his blood with the sacrament offerings, pray that his spirit will be with us and take his name upon us. This idea. So why then are the scriptures saying that God hated Esau? Part of the question was, is that read a little bit differently in the Hebrew, or is there something there in the text that maybe helps us understand this a little differently? As I look at the text itself, it seems to very much support the idea that God was opposed to Esau and. And favored Jacob. It does give that love, hate sense and putting it in contrast. So let us just take a little bit of a minute to explain maybe why it would say that in this case, the Jews are saying to God, God says that I have loved you. What are you talking about? How have you loved us when you gave us Esau? And in here, when we are talking about Jacob and Esau, we are no longer talking about the individuals Jacob and Esau, talking about the nations that they have produced, their offspring, the nation of Esau has been a thorn in their side and caused a lot of problems and strife. And struggling. And they said, why do you say God, that you love us if you gave Esau to be Jacob's brother and the bane of our existence, this nation that's next to us. And God says, I've loved them, but I've. Excuse me, I've loved you, but I've hated them. This idea to me goes back to Jacob's wrestling match with God in this sense. It says in the Book of Mormon, God is not a respecter of persons. Those who serve him, he loves. And it says in the New Testament Christ's teachings that if you keep his commandments, then he will love you and you will abide in his love. But if you keep not my commandments, then you shall not abide in my love. And so this idea is not. God has chosen Jacob regardless of their behavior, their actions. Again, speaking of this nation. But because of their actions, he still loves them and takes care of them. He would love Esau just as much as if they had served him in the same sense that Israel has. And I know that the entire Old Testament appears to be a story about how Israel failed to serve God. It seems like they did not do the greatest job of that. But take this into consideration. In 4,000 years of history, what other religions still exist today? [00:07:02] Speaker B: Preach, brother. [00:07:04] Speaker A: They have held on to God despite surviving multiple holocausts. You look at what happened in World War II. You look at what happened when the Mongols invaded Europe and the Europeans thought that these devils that were coming from the outside was a curse that God was sending to them. And so there was a holocaust in ancient European history, medieval European history, where they murdered all of the Jews to try to atone for the sins that the Jews had committed, just to get the Mongols to stop invading and destroying them. They've been scourged. They were destroyed by the Assyrians in the Old Testament, the Babylonians, and yet they still worship the same God. And from this religion, Christianity has been born. From this religion, you look at everything that has come from there, and it's almost this salt that for what it is worth, even though they crucified the Messiah, it almost hasn't lost its savor. In that you have this peculiar people that still believe the same thing they believed 4,000 years ago that still hold [00:08:13] Speaker B: true and have survived, by the way, multiple super nations falling. You know what I mean? Like dynasty style, like countries, nations. I mean, the greatest, the greatest of armies, the greatest of countries have all changed, evolved, been destroyed. And yet the Jews are still around, man, still doing it. [00:08:41] Speaker A: How many times are the Egyptian dynasties come and gone at the point, the Roman Empire, the Greeks, the Persians, Hittites, Mitanni, I mean, yes, to your point. So maybe just to put a little bow around this. I mean, Esau was not like that. How many times did they stay faithful to the God, or did they quickly go and turn to idols or different. Whatever the people around them were worshiping and kind of, you know, like, lot assimilated into the world around them rather than choose to stand separate like this light to the world. And just that bow that we're looking for, Jacob's wrestling match with God, regardless of what he sent. And remember that this match, this wrestling, took place through the night. So I think of night almost as this apostasy, if you will, this time of darkness. Regardless of what's going on, where they don't have these prophets guiding them anymore, or they don't have that, they still hold on to this belief in God, regardless of what is happening and how he is wrestling with them, persecuting or whatever challenges they have to deal with. And when the light comes and the Messiah returns and they recognize their master because they held on and waited, he will bless them. That is. That's why I think he's loved them, is because they've loved him. All right, let's go into the story. So while they're dwelling in the land. Dina, Dinah. How do you want to say it, Nate? [00:10:29] Speaker B: You're asking the wrong dude. A Dinah. [00:10:34] Speaker A: Dinah sounds like dinosaur. [00:10:36] Speaker B: Sounds like. Isn't there like an old American folk song like, dinah, won't you blow? Dinah, won't you blow? [00:10:44] Speaker A: Okay, Dina, then Dinah it is. [00:10:47] Speaker B: Whatever, man. [00:10:48] Speaker A: Dinah goes in to visit the other lady folk around her, make some friends there. And as she's hanging out with the girls, the high prince there, shechem, decides to go and take her. And I think it's important here that it says this by force, because some commentators look at it and try to put the blame on her shoulders for going and meeting with these girls. And I don't see that she did anything wrong here. It's not saying that she was going and hanging out with the guys. I don't think we should be putting any blame here necessarily on her. It says that he took her by force, okay? And then he loves her. If he loved her, why did he take her by force? But here, nor there, he decides that he wants to make things right. And one thing, in the Old Testament, in the old world, the idea that marriage really was. I mean, what sealed the deal was this act of consummation that was a wedding. That's what it consisted of. The wedding was someone coming in to the wife. And so where she hadn't known any other man. And he was going to try to make this right and say, okay, if I've married you, let's try to go working backwards here. Return over to Jacob and try to negotiate dowry or whatever it takes to make this legitimate, try to fix this. He goes to Jacob, and Jacob found out before he arrives, he asks his father to come and get to negotiate. But he shows up with his father. And when they come and negotiate, the sons come in from the field. And because she is a daughter of Leah's, it's Leah's sons, particularly Levi and Simeon, that are incest, upset, enraged about this incident. Incensed, that's the word I was looking for. [00:12:40] Speaker B: I think that is enraged. [00:12:46] Speaker A: So they deal deceitfully. It says, they say, if you want to marry us, having no intention to intermarry, by the way, and why should they? Abraham's covenant was the idea that they would be their own nation. And what Shechem and his father were proposing was that they would lose their identity as a nation, that they would intermarry and sacrifice the blessings of their father, their grandfather, their great grandfather, and the promises of God. But they were going to do it anyways in order to get them vulnerable so that they could destroy them for what happened. So they go in, they say, if we are going to intermarry, you have to do the circumcision. And he says, all right, including armies and everybody, right? Yes, every man, man in the, in the city. And so they agree. And, and not only do they agree, but they go, and, and every man in the city agrees. [00:13:42] Speaker B: And, and what do you think they do? [00:13:44] Speaker A: It's a good question. [00:13:46] Speaker B: I mean, did they all think that they're all now going to be getting wives from. [00:13:49] Speaker A: That was part of the deal. They were supposed to be able to intermarry. So they, they, they go for it. And three days later, when they're feeling the most sore, Levi and Simeon come in and just lay waste and kill every man. And it does not stop there, because when they come back and they did what they had done, it says that Jacob's sons went and took all of the spoils. So it is not just the two, but the whole family, if you will, that go out and take the women, the children, the flocks, the gold, whatever it is, they take it all. And the spoils might not be as bad as the original sin in the sense that in the ancient world, taking away all of the males in the society is really condemning that society to death. They don't have anyone to sustain them. And the idea that if your brother dies, you are responsible to take his wife and raise up seed for him and take care of his family. Or the firstborn gets the birthright for the sole purpose of taking care of the daughters that haven't had a chance to marry or end up not marrying. This idea that the family society relied heavily on a father, and if you have killed all the males, you have sentenced that whole place to death. So when we talk about looting it and booty, it could have been almost as much as a salvation. Our responsibility is now to these people. We must take them in and provide for them because we have taken away their means for being provided for. What is the purpose of this story? I don't know if I have the greatest insight on that. It is worth mentioning, it is worth talking about. It does show up in the Joseph narrative a little bit. So that is the background and the context to it. And we are not going to shy away from it. But I do not know that I have the greatest insight for it either. And here is where it gets really weird right after this story, because Jacob is abhorred by it and he says, what you have done, all of the other people are larger than us, and if they get together and form a coalition, we are going to be extinct. Our promises from God are in jeopardy because of your actions. Very upset about this, but it's not like there's anything that's done. They don't hold them accountable. They held the entire city accountable for the acts of one man, but for the acts of two brothers, Jacob's family is kind of off the hook. And it's further demonstrated in the very next chapter when Reuben sleeps with his dad's concubine when he takes Bilhah. How is that any different than what Shechem had done to Dina? And what is even more amazing to me is the role that Dinah plays in this story. She doesn't say a word. We don't know if she loved him. We don't know how she felt about it. We don't know if she was on board with it. She is quiet. She is silent. She is this victim. It is interesting, though, that the Hebrew word Dinah, the name means judgment. So when judgment arrived in Shechem, Shechem tried to abuse judgment, tried to make get their way with judgment, tried to twist it for their own gain. And so maybe there's something there, I don't know, something to think about. That's the context and the backstory. Do you have anything. Nate, you had kind of mentioned that [00:17:37] Speaker B: maybe this has something to do. Excuse me. Later on, though, with the reason that Joseph wasn't out taking care of the flocks as the youngest at the time, I think that that's maybe an important thing to bring up, too, to help explain maybe why that would have been the case. [00:17:56] Speaker A: It's a good point. When we later find Joseph at home and Jacob at home, but all of his brothers gone. That is weird. And the reason why it is weird. Hopefully you have caught this this year. We've come up a few times. The shepherding job was the despised job. It was the job of the youngest son. Nobody wanted to do it. He just made the youngest son do it. You see it with David. Before he was the king, he was the youngest son. While all the other brothers got to go out to war. We saw it with Jacob and Esau. Here you have this other. All of the brothers should have been home. Joseph should have been out with the flocks. And it is not that they took. Well, let us take the next youngest son. No, they sent every son but Joseph to go and do this, which is strange. This should raise flags for you. And the interesting thing in how this ties into the story is that they were watering or taking care of their flocks in the land of Shechem. So the land that they had destroyed. And maybe Jacob had them go to the land of Shechem to water the flocks as a reminder of what they had done. Maybe Joseph hadn't participated in the looting or the killing or whatever the case may be. And so Jacob, maybe this was for him, an opportunity to take this. I mean, remember, Jacob was the youngest who always aspired to be the firstborn. He doesn't have that same type of respect for the first one born necessarily should be. Maybe he's looking at Joseph as the younger one and saying, you know what? These older sons, I'm going to put Joseph first because of what happened here in these events. And to help them see why I'm putting Joseph first, I'm sending them to Shechem and I'm making them, all of them, play the role of the younger son. And having Joseph step up. [00:20:06] Speaker B: The problem is this doesn't do Joseph any favors. [00:20:09] Speaker A: No. Having Joseph protected in the very back of the family and kind of played as the favorite, and then having him stay home and not have to do the chores when it's his responsibility and everyone else is out there doing it, [00:20:24] Speaker B: and then also putting him on the spot and being like, hey, tell me Also, what's going on with your brothers out there? And I want you to be my spy. [00:20:30] Speaker A: Go be the informant. [00:20:30] Speaker B: Go be the informant. It's just like, oh. [00:20:33] Speaker A: And it's not just Jacob that's setting Joseph up like this, because then God sends Joseph the dreams. [00:20:40] Speaker B: Yep, that's right. [00:20:42] Speaker A: And Joseph, Joseph, just like. You see Jacob kind of go through a transformation. I think Joseph, early on, maybe he should have learned how to hold his tongue. I don't know. Maybe it's not necessarily how to hold your tongue. Maybe it's more about how he should have presented his dreams. [00:21:01] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. [00:21:03] Speaker A: But the way he presents them, interprets them at the beginning, is very different from the end of the story when we see how he interprets Pharaoh's dream instead of taking this credit and trying to make himself out to be this incredible person. I have no ability to interpret your dreams. It's God. If God gives me that, then I can do it. But let the credit go to God, not to him. [00:21:26] Speaker B: That's great insight. So, Joseph, when we get into the Joseph story, there's a lot of funny things that you read kind of between the lines in the text that are really explanatory of why things went sideways. [00:21:43] Speaker A: But, hey, and while we're talking about Joseph, we're going to be getting into. And we've talked about the story of Dina, which may or may not make a lot of sense. There's something I want to turn to our listeners. [00:21:59] Speaker B: Okay. [00:22:01] Speaker A: We like to notice some of these things that maybe stand out, and we go in and expound it and try to take a little bit of unique perspective. And we spend most of the time talking, and you guys spend most of the time listening. I want to give you an opportunity to kind of turn that. I want to call attention to something that I've noticed that I think is significant, but not explain it and give you guys the opportunity to try to come up with your own unique perspective or interpretation for what you think that unique thing is, maybe spark some discussion. [00:22:37] Speaker B: Love it. [00:22:39] Speaker A: So here's the deal. Jacob gives Joseph a coat of many colors, right? And this plays a significant role. And the brothers tear the coat, which is interesting in and of itself. I mean, we get down to Moroni, right? There's a lot of legends with this coat, and it shows up in the Book of Mormon, this idea that if this fragment of the coat still exists, as long as it does, we'll still have a lineage of Israel that can be protected and saved. But this tearing of the coat and this dipping, it In Blood is significant. Now, later on in Joseph's life he goes to Egypt. And we are going to have a similar story in the idea that Potiphar's wife grabs Joseph's garment and he flees and has to leave it behind. So again he is being incriminated, killed or sent away to prison. And you have this coat left behind. And in some stories it even talks about how when she had held tore a piece off and he had kept most of it and she had it. And so when she accused him, they had him bring his coat and it matched this piece and that's what they used to kind of sentence him and send him to prison. So here you have this. I feel like it's a significant part of the story, but I'm not going to tell you what the significance or what I think of it. I'd love to hear your guys thoughts. [00:24:12] Speaker B: I love that idea. [00:24:13] Speaker A: And we've been seeing a lot more comments coming in on the website. So if you go onto the post addoneducation.com for the podcast for this week underneath the episode, there's comments. Feel free to comment and I'll publish your comments and we can have a discussion and see if we can't make this more interactive on that point. [00:24:37] Speaker B: I love it. [00:24:38] Speaker A: Okay. But that does not mean we're going to run away from showing you some unique perspective in this episode. [00:24:43] Speaker B: Hey, let me ask you a quick question too. [00:24:45] Speaker A: Yes, sir. [00:24:47] Speaker B: Is there any deep meaning too that the piece of incriminating evidence that he put, that he gave to Benjamin was a goblet or like a cup? [00:25:01] Speaker A: That's a great question because I've thought [00:25:03] Speaker B: about that and I, I think that that's a pretty symbolic thing too, for whatever it's worth. [00:25:09] Speaker A: But anyways, do you want me to add to that? [00:25:11] Speaker B: Please. [00:25:12] Speaker A: Because who gets saved in prison? [00:25:17] Speaker B: Is it the food guy? The chef? [00:25:18] Speaker A: Not the food guy. It's the cup bearer. [00:25:21] Speaker B: Oh, is it? [00:25:22] Speaker A: It's the cup bearer. [00:25:24] Speaker B: The, the. The cup bearer. Like the, not the nanny, the. I don't know, the butler. [00:25:31] Speaker A: They called him a butler. [00:25:31] Speaker B: Yeah, the butler. [00:25:32] Speaker A: They called it butler. The Hebrew word is literally cup bearer. It's the one that poured the wine. [00:25:37] Speaker B: Okay, there you go. There's something else that there's a few things now for you guys to stew over. Leave some comments on. [00:25:46] Speaker A: And I'll give you this in historical context. There's even a story about a cupbearer that actually becomes the king on accident. Accident? Yes, it happened in history. [00:26:01] Speaker B: The accident. [00:26:02] Speaker A: The cupbearer Becoming the king. It's an interesting story. [00:26:05] Speaker B: Okay. [00:26:06] Speaker A: And it kind of like this Prince and the Pauper type story where it comes from, maybe going back into history. So excellent, excellent observation, Nate. I'm glad you threw that out there. [00:26:17] Speaker B: Thank you. I appreciate that. I try to think deeply about things occasionally. [00:26:21] Speaker A: You do. [00:26:22] Speaker B: Okay. There you go. That's the thing on this week. Let's keep going. [00:26:25] Speaker A: Okay. This is going to tie into atonement quite a bit, actually. Let's look at Joseph's life. I'm just going to give you a life sketch of Joseph and maybe just present it in a way to see if this sounds like anything familiar to you. [00:26:43] Speaker B: Okay. I love these things. [00:26:45] Speaker A: So here you have Joseph from Israel and his brothers take him. Reuben actually tries to save his life. I don't know if you noticed that in the text. His idea is to get him back to his dad. Judah also tries to save Joseph. And so he has a couple brothers that are trying to work to help him where the other ones don't, but that's neither here nor there. They take Joseph and ultimately decide to throw him into a pit. Now, the word for pit, Sheol, is the same word for the spirit world, if you will. Yeah. And this idea that you are going into the pit, you descend into the pit, is symbolic of death. That is what it means. So you have this character who gets thrown into the pit, and when he arises out of the pit, he is sold by Israel to the Gentiles, if you will. Now, the word gentile is goyim, which literally means nations. And I think nations is a good way to describe that because it is first the Ishmaelites, and then they are going to sell them to the Egyptians, and he is actually going to change hands a few times here. So you have this idea of Israel, this going into the pit, death coming back out to the Gentiles, if you will. And then the Gentiles kind of embracing him, taking him in. But then he gets thrown into prison and kind of cast out onto the wayside and forgotten. But when he rises up out of his prison and kind of becomes this king, it's first again to the Gentiles, and then he reaches out to Israel and brings them down into Egypt to be with him. What does that sound like? [00:28:44] Speaker B: I mean, are we letting other people think about this? Are we answering this? [00:28:47] Speaker A: Go for it, Nate. [00:28:49] Speaker B: I mean, this is pretty much the history of Jesus coming to the Jews, the Jews rejecting him, him going to the Gentiles, the Gentiles embracing him. A great Apostasy happening. And then when he comes back or is restored. Let's just use that word because it's convenient for this story. When he is restored, he is then back to the Gentiles. He is then tasked with bringing the Jews back into the fold. [00:29:17] Speaker A: Yes, sir. [00:29:18] Speaker B: Yeah, baby. [00:29:19] Speaker A: Yeah. And so looking at that story, you [00:29:23] Speaker B: didn't even prep me for this. I mean, it was a layup for. For whatever it's worth. But I appreciate the layup. Thank you. Thanks for giving me an easy one. [00:29:30] Speaker A: It's kind of cool. I love it. And if you read the story and you look at it, you almost think, well, if Christ is coming again, it should be first to these Gentiles and then to the Jews. And it's interesting because Egypt is separated from the land of Israel. When they leave and they flee, what do they have to do? They have to part the sea and cross the sea. And this idea that these nations, these Gentiles, are separated by a sea from the old land versus the new land. And Joseph has a son, Ephraim, which. Ephraim means a doubling. He's going to have two lands because he remembers the old land and the new land. And this idea that Ephraim is going to go like a plant over the wall and inherit this new land. It's kind of interesting to see that this Joseph character and how it fits with the coming of the Messiah and the. The whole story, I guess, of the Savior down to when he comes again. And maybe one last bit of information to this, because he interprets the dreams of Pharaoh. And the dreams of Pharaoh going to be the seven years of leanness and the seven years of fatness. He's going to set aside 20% of the lean or, excuse me, the abundance to save the world. Pharaoh gives him a new name. And do you know what the new name in Egyptian is? [00:30:54] Speaker B: Let me think. Let me think. Come on. I can think of this. I don't know. [00:31:00] Speaker A: Savior of the world. [00:31:02] Speaker B: What's. What is the. What's the name? I don't remember, but it means savior of the world. [00:31:08] Speaker A: It means savior of the world. [00:31:09] Speaker B: Okay. I thought it was a name that I was gonna recognize and then kick myself for not knowing. [00:31:14] Speaker A: No, I. I don't remember right off [00:31:16] Speaker B: the top of my head, but it's in there. [00:31:18] Speaker A: But he does give him a new name. And the new name that he gives him is savior of the world because that's the role that he's going to be playing, is the role of the savior of the world. [00:31:28] Speaker B: Awesome. [00:31:30] Speaker A: And then you even have this idea of the two nations with Ephraim and NASA. Kind of the similar idea that we've talked about with Jacob and Esau with. Yeah, we've seen this. We don't need to go down that road. [00:31:43] Speaker B: All right. [00:31:44] Speaker A: Okay. There is something that happens in this whole story, though, that seems a little out of place. And I feel like this is in the Old Testament. This is definitely worth talking about. If we go to Genesis chapter. Sorry, as I turn my page right here, chapter 37. And I'm going to read the end of 37. And then I'm going to skip chapter 38 and read the beginning of 39. And usually when you skip a verse, you kind of. You notice you're missing some context. Yeah. And if you skip an entire chapter, even more so. [00:32:18] Speaker B: Right, Yep. [00:32:19] Speaker A: So let's see how bad off it sounds if we leave this chapter out. Verse 35, the end of 37. And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, for I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning thus. [00:32:33] Speaker B: It's talking about Jacob. [00:32:35] Speaker A: Jacob mourning the loss of Joseph. And the Midianites sold him unto Egypt, unto Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh's and captain of the guard. Okay, skipping to chapter 39. And Joseph was brought down to Egypt. And Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh, captain of the guard and Egyptian, bought him of the hand of the Ishmaelites, which had brought him down thither. And the Lord was with Joseph. And he was a prosperous man, and he was in the house of his masters of Egypt. And did we miss anything? [00:33:09] Speaker B: You know, that actually all sounded like it makes sense. [00:33:11] Speaker A: It just flowed. [00:33:12] Speaker B: Yeah, that sounded like it make a lot of sense. [00:33:14] Speaker A: So what did we miss in the middle? [00:33:16] Speaker B: Okay, hold on, let me think, let me think. What do we miss in the middle? I mean, I don't know. He gets sold. [00:33:22] Speaker A: Yeah, he got sold to Potiphar, but [00:33:25] Speaker B: I guess we got the. Did we miss. Did we already get the whole, like, renting of the coat and the blood and. [00:33:30] Speaker A: Not that. [00:33:32] Speaker B: That's crazy. I don't know. What do we miss? [00:33:34] Speaker A: The story of Judah and Tamar. [00:33:36] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, baby. Our. Our twins. [00:33:39] Speaker A: Yeah. So why is that story stuck in the middle of this story? Why would you interrupt. We interrupt this broadcast to present to [00:33:46] Speaker B: you the weirdest story. [00:33:48] Speaker A: This commercial that's so important. [00:33:51] Speaker B: I love this story. I love the story. This is the arm coming out, right? [00:33:54] Speaker A: This is the arm coming out. [00:33:55] Speaker B: This is the Dude, Colin. Dibs. [00:33:56] Speaker A: But before it comes out, you have. You have this weirdness of Judah's sons dying and Tamar him not wanting to give him to the third son because she's this widower. And unlike the story of Dinah, I actually have a little bit more. I like this story a little bit more as far as it makes sense to me. So Judah goes and marries a Canaanite, which at this point in the Bible we should recognize that that is something kind of frowned upon. [00:34:30] Speaker B: That is off limits, right? [00:34:32] Speaker A: Yes. But he does it anyways. [00:34:33] Speaker B: Okay. [00:34:33] Speaker A: And when he does it, he has three sons. And the first son he gives to Tamar to be his wife. But the first son displeases God and he dies. So the law stipulates if the brother dies, let us get the next to kin to redeem his line. So the second son, now this is another weird story, doesn't want to have the response. He knows that if he has kids, they're not going to be his kids, they're going to be his dead brother's kids. It's not his line and he doesn't want to do it. So he spills his seed on the ground. And this has been used as an idea of. This is why you don't engage in self gratification. And I don't know that I don't agree with that act, but I don't think this is an argument for that. This is a whole different deal here. He's refusing to raise up seed to his brother. I don't think we should be confusing that with different sexual sin. Yes, there's a prohibition, but I don't think that's the point of this story. So because he is refusing to fulfill his responsibility and raise up seed for his brother, God's displeased with him and he's killed. [00:35:47] Speaker B: Oh, whoa. [00:35:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And it doesn't say how they're killed. It doesn't give any context to it. It just, you know, he passes away without having kids. So now Judah has a third son and a responsibility to give Tamar to his third son. And he tells her to just wait till the son's old enough to get married. But when the son gets old enough to get married and Judah still doesn't do it, kind of afraid of losing his last son, she schemes a scheme, if you will. Judah's wife passes away. And as he's traveling, he passes into a spot. Tamar finds out he's going to be going through this area, so she dresses up like a harlot and she waits by the roadside and here's Judah who hasn't had a wife for a while. And we know it has been a while because it says that he was comforted. It is not that she just barely passed away. He is able to have some time pass. And as he is going through this area, he sees Tamar and says, hey, I am going to go visit this prostitute. So again, this hypocrisy of how they treated shechem versus how they are willing to act among themselves. But anyways, Judah goes into Tamar not knowing it's Tamar because part of the garb of a prostitute is to cover her face. And I think it's similar to when you're getting married. A wife wears a veil and kind of the symbol saying I am ready to go into a man. Kind of idea that they wear this veil to cover their face. But also kind of this. We've talked about the imitation, the cheap version, the corrupted version, right? So she's covering her face and Judah goes, not recognizing who she is. But he doesn't have wherewith to pay her. So he says, I will bring you payment later. But in order to guarantee that I will bring you payment, I will give you my signet. So a signet is this ring. And on the ring is a seal that he can push into and stamp with a unique mark that identifies him as Judah and then also his staff, this sign and symbol of power. And remember through Judah's line the kings are going to come and Christ ultimately is going to come. The staff is significant there. Well, she is not interested in payment. She was interested in doing what she was supposed to do all along and that is keep the seed of Judah going. So she disappears. Judah comes back with the sheep, can't find her to save his life. [00:38:32] Speaker B: And. [00:38:33] Speaker A: And now he is worried that because she can identify him with his ring, she is going to embarrass him. A couple months pass by and Judah notices that his daughter in law is pregnant even though he hadn't given her to his son. So he is ready to pass a death sentence on her and says, okay, we are done with her. Bring her out. Who did this to you? Who's. Because it was supposed to be my son. Obviously it wasn't. Who did this happen with? And she said, I'll tell you who it happened with. And she gives Judah the signet. [00:39:08] Speaker B: This is just like. Do you ever watch Jerry Springer? [00:39:16] Speaker A: No, I know what I'm talking about. [00:39:19] Speaker B: But this is about as like oh, as it gets. [00:39:25] Speaker A: It is okay. As low as it gets like it was. [00:39:28] Speaker B: This is some awesome drama. [00:39:30] Speaker A: She had it. She. She. She had it planned and ready to go. And all of a sudden, you are the. And all of a sudden, Judah realizes what happened, and. And he says, you didn't do anything wrong. I did. So why. Why do I love this? Why do I love this story? [00:39:52] Speaker B: Because it's just all amazing drama. Are you kidding me? The story's great. [00:39:57] Speaker A: No, I look at this as if you've got Judah, who's going to. First he takes a wife that's a Canaanite, right? An outsider woman. And Judah's kind of this outside woman. She's not a Canaanite. It doesn't say anything about her being a Canaanite, But Judah has kind of soiled his line, if you will, by not being diligent. And you see him not being diligent in marrying a Canaanite, but then you see his sons being wicked and being slain by the Lord, and then you see him failing to give him to the third son and fulfill the responsibility, and ultimately him going into a harlot. And what is that supposed to signify? We have a covenant relationship with God. To know doesn't just mean to know someone sexually. It means to be in a covenant relationship. And so when you're turning aside to a different wife, it is symbolic of turning aside to a different God or failing to worship God. So as Judah was representing here, I mean, Judah is the southern kingdom, Jerusalem, the remnants of Israel today. As they fail to recognize their God and turn aside into apostasy. What is happening is this outsider is coming in and brought in to redeem the line. And this idea of, I don't know, the interplay that you see between the Gentiles and the Jews. So I see it kind of this interesting story as we are talking about Joseph going into the Gentiles, and we talk about him being among them and going to be redeemed among the Gentiles and then bring the Jews back into the house and the Jews having soldiers Joseph and given up on him. It seems like that story is embedded within this story to really drive that point home. [00:41:57] Speaker B: I love it. It is interesting. It's great. [00:41:59] Speaker A: It's interesting symbolism. And where Joseph is this savior of the world is what Pharaoh calls him. We have this story about the breech birth of the hand. And that is a very unusual birthday to have a hand first come out and then they have to identify this is the firstborn. They grab the hand and they tie the scarlet thread around it. This Isn't the first time. Excuse me, this isn't the only time we'll see that scarlet thread. There's significance there. But the hand withdraws back into the womb and then the other son comes out. So now technically the second son is the firstborn, even though he's not, because he's not the one that breached first. And then the other one comes out. And I look at that story and again, I can't help but think of us not being worthy per se, of being that firstborn son, but because Christ came and died and shed his blood, that scarlet wrapping around his hand being symbolic of the atonement we're allowed to. To become the firstborn. [00:43:09] Speaker B: That is great. [00:43:10] Speaker A: And just as he came and disappeared and he will come again, this idea that he will return and come again and we will be exalted because of what he did, I think fits again with the story of Joseph, who was in Israel, who disappeared, who is going to make a triumphant return and, and save all of Israel. As this image of Christ, [00:43:42] Speaker B: man, it's great stuff. Let's keep going. [00:43:44] Speaker A: All right. Okay. Another. Another image of atonement with, with the story of the cup bearer in. In prison and the. The bread, the baker. Here is the thing. Both of these guys are preparing food or something for Pharaoh to eat. They both served in his house. And Pharaoh is going to lift one up to save and he is going to condemn the other to death. What happened? It is interesting to think where they are both involved with serving food. Perhaps somebody got poisoned in the house and you do not know who it was. Was it the drink that they drank or was it the food that they ate? In either case, somebody is responsible and we are going to have to sort out. But there's an interesting ritual that was performed in Egypt that kind of goes along with this. It's called the substitute king ritual. And this wasn't just practiced in Egypt. It was actually practiced all throughout the entire Near East. And the idea is that you would have these wise men looking for omens or signs to know if you had displeased the gods. And so if an eclipse, for example, if the sun represented the king and something came in front to block the moon comes and blocks the light of the sun out and it's all darkness. That was symbolic that that king was going to die because he had displeased the gods. And they would even look at partial eclipses. And based on what quadrant of the sun it was, was which land, which king had offended God, therefore, which king is sentenced to death. Now, the king, knowing that he is going to die, tries to get out of it like the powerful guy that he is. So they have this substitute king ritual where they take somebody, usually on death row, and they say, hey, we are going to make you king for the day. Yeah. And so they take him, they dress him up as the king, and he becomes the king, and he kind of feels out the day. And then at the end of the day, it depends on the society and the culture. Some of them, I think they would kill the king, and it is kind of an offering to God saying, look, our king offended you. Here is our king. And now we are killing him to atone for what he did so that we can go back to being good in your eyes. Some of them, it was just that he served as a lightning rod. If he died, he died, and if he didn't, then that's good. We will just put the king back on the throne and we will keep going, business is normal. But in Egypt, you had this rite, this ritual, this idea that one would die so that the other would live. And when you have this butler and this cup bearer, one dies and the other one lives. Then as you look at this ritual in context of the atonement, when Christ was brought before the Romans, what did they do? They fashioned a crown and put it over his head and put a robe around him, and they fix a sign above the cross that says king of the Jews. He became the substitute king that gave his life so that we could live knowing that each and every one of us had offended God and was worthy of death. He stepped in and took that role so that we could be exalted. So again, this imagery around the story of Joseph, I think oftentimes we recognize the story of Isaac very clearly, but we don't see all of this atonement that just kind of stacks up here with this young man. And maybe one more significant point to bring out about Joseph is, you know, at the beginning of this episode, we talked about the story of Dina and how it didn't make a lot of sense in this sexual impurity. And then Reuben doing the same thing. And then we have the story of Judah and his sexual impurity. And maybe all of this is kind of building us up for Joseph and Potiphar's wife, because it puts such stark contrast the decisions that he makes in Potiphar's house when faced with temptation. Here you had weakness, weakness, weakness. But this is what I think one of the most defining things about him and his character. And it Talks about him being apparently extremely handsome, kind of in the same way that they gush about Sarah, Abraham's wife, and they gush about Rebekah and Rachel. Joseph inherited those genes or whatever because that story kind of continues with him being extremely attractive. And some of the extra biblical sources talk about how the ladies were sitting there. I can't remember if they were peeling potatoes or what, but they are just cutting their hands up because they are just sitting there staring at him as he walks by. And they are like, what are you doing? But anyhow, neither here nor there. Potiphar, it says, is an officer in Pharaoh's house. And the Hebrew word translated as officer is the same word for a castrated male or a eunuch. [00:49:19] Speaker B: Eunuch. Interesting. [00:49:21] Speaker A: And so there could have been some issues there with Potiphar's wife knowing that she couldn't have children. Being married to Potiphar, she couldn't become a mom. And this desire to do that helped even pull her even more so to Joseph. [00:49:42] Speaker B: Let me ask a quick question. [00:49:43] Speaker A: Yes, sir. [00:49:45] Speaker B: Culturally, I guess I'm wondering what the rules are culturally, because again, as we've kind of talked about to this point, like, if somebody can't have kids, if, like, a woman can't have or bear children, she's legally required by law, Right. To provide somebody for her husband to have children with so that his line can continue. Right. [00:50:06] Speaker A: Oh, I like where you're going with this. [00:50:08] Speaker B: And so I guess that's kind of. My question is culturally, Culturally, is there some sort of, like a reciprocated obligation here or. And maybe even another question too, that I'll kind of let you maybe run off on, is, what was the deal? Because I thought that when you would have a slave, basically, or you would have a servant or something like that, basically, they were at the mercy of whatever their master did or didn't want to do with them. Right. And so I guess my other question is too, is, Is in this circumstance, would Joseph had been in trouble personally, had he just gone along with the program and was Potiphar more upset that the story became. He tried as a slave to force himself on me. And I screamed and whatever, and he. Once I started screaming, he ran away and the whole thing. Right. I guess I'm just wondering is like, would it have. Would it have even been better if it. If he had just gone along with the program and been like, oh, yeah, my, my. If my wife wants to do that with you, you're the slave. That's what you. You do what she tells you to do. I don't know. Does that make sense? I guess I'm just wondering if, like, culturally there's. There's some even things too, where it's like, I don't know if he exposed himself even more by just basically being like, one, I'm not going to do that because morally it's not right, you know? But two, I'm also now breaking protocol by not letting my master decide what they want to do with me and accepting my role. Right. [00:51:49] Speaker A: Yes. And it's almost a reversal of roles here. And even if it's not culturally, it's definitely literary. As you look, he's taking on the feminine role of being good appearance that his mom did that, his grandma that his great grandma. I love how you put that in context of almost like the handmaid, the servant, that if you can't provide offspring, then you have to provide a handmaid that can. So it's almost like these roles are switched. And where I find that so fascinating. Maybe I can tie this in. In Christ in Isaiah, chapter 53. Maybe I'll just read that real quick. [00:52:34] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, let's pull it up. [00:52:36] Speaker A: And I know we've talked about this earlier this year, and I know we're going to talk about it again when we get to Isaiah. [00:52:42] Speaker B: We should just keep talking about it as much as it makes sense. [00:52:44] Speaker A: I will talk about it over and over. I love Isaiah 53. And when we're talking about the role that Christ plays here, verse four, surely he hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows. When you talk about bearing and carrying, these are roles of a mother. [00:53:05] Speaker B: Those are feminine roles. [00:53:06] Speaker A: Yes, yes. And then when it talks about verse eight, for he was taken from prison. And isn't that interesting when you talk about him being taken from prison and from judgment. And who shall declare his generation? For he was cut off from the land of the living, so he's not able to have kids. But in verse 10, but it pleased the Lord to crush him, and he hath put him to grief. And when you shall make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed. He shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. Verse 11. And he shall see the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied. Again, travail this idea that he is bearing and caring. And when the atonement happens now he is travailing and giving birth to a new creature. Because you made his soul an offering for your sin. Christ is taking on these very feminine roles. And it is interesting because when it says that he is led like a lamb. Let's find that verse, because that is also very significant. Verse 7. He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth. Joseph was extremely oppressed by his brothers, by being unjustly accused by Potiphar's wife, by the cupbearer forgetting him when he came out. He was oppressed, yet he opened not his mouth. He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter. Do you know what the Hebrew word for lamb is? [00:54:53] Speaker B: Tell me. [00:54:54] Speaker A: Rachel. [00:54:55] Speaker B: No way. Really? [00:54:56] Speaker A: Joseph's mom. [00:54:58] Speaker B: Wow. [00:54:59] Speaker A: And it's significant because here, Rachel, it's not a male lamb. You talk about a sacrifice, an offering. Lord, make it a male unblemished. Because it's like the Savior. And here he's saying that he was brought like a female sheep, like Rachel, to the slaughters. And so, I don't know, I look at the atonement and this idea that because Christ gave his life, he becomes our Father, but almost the atonement becomes our mother. And it takes this feminine role on it. So it's kind of interesting, as you were talking about that. That's kind of where my mind went. This idea that he's almost like the handmaid that he's being offered here. To try to raise up seed in this context, in a literary point of view. [00:55:51] Speaker B: There's also a lot of symbolism too, like you talked about, with the role of Christ. Right. When Christ was brought before the Sanhedrin, it was at an illegal time to be doing it. It was at night, wasn't it? On the Passover or wasn't it? I'm trying to remember exactly when. But from what I remember, basically it was. It was basically an illegal hearing, right? [00:56:15] Speaker A: Yes. [00:56:15] Speaker B: Like, it was. It wasn't supposed to. It was not following any of the actual laws. He was. Christ was very unjustly accused and found guilty without due process, right? [00:56:28] Speaker A: Yes. [00:56:29] Speaker B: And you look at this story. Exactly. You know, you can look at it exactly the same way, which is. Is Joseph not only didn't do anything wrong, but he actually did the right thing, but was unjustly accused, was falsely, you know, convicted and basically judge, jury, executioner, all. All outside of anything that he had actually done wrong. And so there's some symbolism to Christ there as well. [00:56:57] Speaker A: And maybe there's some symbolism in this too. When you look at what Shechem did, you look at what Reuben did, you look at what Judah does. This idea that maybe everyone around you is going to be unfaithful Maybe everyone here in this world at some point in time is going to break our covenant with Christ or with God. We are going to sin. But Joseph remained faithful. In the face of temptation, he fled. We might forget, we might turn aside. But God hath engraven us on his hands. He will not forget us. He will not turn aside, he will not forsake us. But he will always be faithful to that covenant that he has made with us, as long as we are willing to be his last thought. [00:57:51] Speaker B: Real quick, please. I also do love the symbolism of Joseph. And Joseph, right in a prison, wondering if God forgot about them. Anything else you want to talk about? That's a lot of good stuff in there this week. [00:58:06] Speaker A: There's a lot of good stuff. There's some fun things that we could talk about. I don't know if we're. If we want to do something just off topic. Not necessarily off topic. What am I trying to say? I feel like in this episode we painted in some pretty broad [00:58:23] Speaker B: prod. [00:58:24] Speaker A: Let me try to talk. [00:58:25] Speaker B: Okay? It's late, baby. I get it. [00:58:28] Speaker A: It's been a long week. [00:58:29] Speaker B: It's been a long week. It's been a long day of a long week. [00:58:33] Speaker A: We've painted in a lot of broad strokes, and we've tried to focus on the symbolism of what we're reading and how it relates to Christ or how the story of Christ relates into the Old Testament. I love the Old Testament because it provides that context to really understand what Christ is doing and why he is doing it and where it comes from and how it fits. There are some other stories that overlap with this, that if we wanted to. I don't like clashing them in with these broad strokes. If we wanted to maybe take a little time sometimes. Because Pharaoh reacts to his wife in an extra biblical source, he's upset, but he's more upset because he knows the character of Joseph and he knows the character of his wife. [00:59:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I've wondered about that, actually. [00:59:30] Speaker A: And he knows exactly what happened here. He's not deceived by it. And the story goes that when Joseph is brought out of prison, Potiphar goes to his wife and says, I am undone. Because remember, he was a servant in Pharaoh's house. And now Joseph is over all of the servants in Pharaoh's house, just like he was over all the servants. Potiphar was the Lord. Now all of a sudden, Joseph, instead of being under Potiphar, is what Potiphar was to Joseph. And so he's like, I can't go to work tomorrow. I've got to stay home. I'm too embarrassed to show my face. And he makes his wife write out an apology to give to Joseph. [01:00:16] Speaker B: What? [01:00:17] Speaker A: So there's a letter. It's an apology letter from Potiphar's wife for wrongfully imprisoning Joseph to try to save space. [01:00:25] Speaker B: Maybe we can get a bonus episode in sooner or later. I mean, I love going over that stuff, but again, to me, it's like I almost don't want to muddy the water too much. I think it kind of detracts from in this week. [01:00:36] Speaker A: Right. And I love the Bible for what it says, for what it doesn't say. And maybe if we want to have some fun and talk about, I mean, the reputation of Israel, when you talk about what they did in Shechem, these guys were fierce and there's a reason that people respected them and there's legends about their conquest and whatnot. So there's some cool things we could talk about this time period, but I just don't feel like it fits per se in this episode. [01:01:03] Speaker B: That's totally fine. Let's. Let's see if we can't maybe get a little bonus episode for those that would be interested in that stuff. And then again, please continue to share with your friends. Thank you guys so much for continuing to do that. Our numbers again can continue to just steadily increase and we're thrilled that more and more people are getting a chance to listen to this. Hopefully you're enjoying it. Hopefully you're getting a lot of good information out of it. Hopefully it's not just information without a little bit of, I don't know, personality. We really love doing this, but we really love doing it because of the feedback that we get from you guys, our listeners, and we really appreciate it. So thank you guys. [01:01:38] Speaker A: And if I could remind you, just one, one quick deal. The significance of the coat and why is it that he has it torn here with or taken away from him? Rent. [01:01:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:53] Speaker A: What are your guys thoughts? Let's hear your insight and unique perspective. Www.addoneducation.com let's see if we can have some good discussion from you guys, give you the floor and see what you have to say about it and kind of have a discourse that way and get you involved in that. Love it. [01:02:11] Speaker B: I think that's what we got for this week. Anything you want to talk about for next week or should we just have [01:02:16] Speaker A: it be a surprise next week? We're kind of getting to the end when Jacob and his brothers come back this reunion, this other redemption story, you know, you about talk about Jacob and Esau. We're going to have Joseph and his brothers. [01:02:30] Speaker B: I love this part of the story too. I, I, I have some thoughts. So I'm excited to, I'm excited to get into this with you and so then I guess until next week, see Y. [01:02:52] Speaker A: La.