Genesis 37 - 41

Speaker 1 00:00:15 Welcome to the weekly deep dive podcast on the ad-on education network podcast, where we take a look at the weekly, come follow me discussion and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd here in the studio with my friend and this show's producer, Nate Pifer. What's up. Hey, Nate, Speaker 2 00:00:34 How are you Speaker 1 00:00:35 Doing buddy? Oh, fantastic. You're a little tired. Oh, gee. It's been a long week. Speaker 2 00:00:40 Been a long week baby, but excited to Speaker 1 00:00:41 Do it. Uh, I'm excited. This is, um, this is gonna be a lot of fun where I I've made a mistake last week thinking because we finished in Genesis chapter 34. Was it that the next chapter 35 where you'd get into Deena and, and her trouble with the people of Shekem when Levi and Simeon kind of do their thing with, with circumcision and slaughtering the city Speaker 2 00:01:06 Way. So we're not going to talk about this Speaker 1 00:01:07 For whatever reason, and I guess I can understand it. I can respect that the church has decided to skip over those chapters. So I, I said that was next and we can mention it and maybe we can do a bonus episode at some point where we, where we talk about it a little bit more. If there, if there is anything to talk about there. Speaker 2 00:01:30 I mean, is there anything to talk about there? Speaker 1 00:01:32 It's a weird story. It's definitely a weird story. Uh, and maybe we'll just give it a quick recap because it does come into play a little bit with what we're talking about this week, Speaker 2 00:01:44 At least explained so that, so that people know we're talking about and why it would make sense later than in what we're doing. Speaker 1 00:01:50 Perfect. And they also skipped over a whole chapter of begetting. Yeah. Yeah. And it's Speaker 2 00:01:58 Okay. Now, now this, this cannot stand Speaker 1 00:02:03 It's and it's, it's eats out a whole chapter is dedicated to Esau going through his whole begetting. It's kind of cool that he gets a whole chapter to himself, like a tip to the hat, like Esau. We know you're awesome. And you're, you're part of this bill, but you're not the main character of the story. So we'll give you your, your moment in the spotlight and we're moving on. Okay. Okay. And, and we also had a question last week, and maybe we should, uh, dive into the question and then quickly recap, our ours are Dinah Dina. However you want to say it with the shack of mites. I think we could probably do both. Yeah. I heard both ways. Speaker 2 00:02:42 Well, I think the thing is, is I, I would imagine that for the most part, those of you that are listening or our listeners are definitely trying to get some perspective on the come follow me lessons, but also just interested in the stories of the old Testament and kind of the, um, reasons. So at least I am, you know, and, and I understand that the church has skipping that stuff, but I'd prefer personally that we still get into some of this stuff and talk about it because it is in the book. Speaker 1 00:03:09 It is in the book. I agree. I like aye. Aye, aye, aye. Just full disclosure. Love to go through everything in here for better, for worse. Speaker 2 00:03:17 I mean, let's at least go through some stuff. And then again, a good question that we had this week that would be, I think, important also to discuss. Speaker 1 00:03:23 Absolutely. Let's start with the question then. So the question is when we're talking about Jacob and Esau in two places in the Bible, you get it in Malakai and he get it again in the new Testament. It says, God loved Jacob, but he hated Esau. And, and how we told the story and this idea of redemption for Jacob redemption, for Esau and this coming together in Jacob comparing, seeing the face of his brother as if he had seen the face of God. And we also talked about the story of impersonating the first born, how Jacob dressed up like Esau was, was very similar to, as we're taking the sacrament, we impersonate the savior. We decided that we're going to follow him. We're going to behave as he would behave, take his body has was blood with the sacrament offerings have pray that his spirit will be with us and take his name upon us, this idea. Speaker 1 00:04:16 So why then are the scripture saying that God hated Esau? And, and part of the question was, is, is that read a little bit differently in the Hebrew? Is there something there in the text that maybe helps us understand this a little differently? And as I look at the text itself, it seems to very much support the idea that God was opposed to ISA and favored Jacob. It does give that love hate sense and, and putting it in contrast. So let's, let's just take a little bit of a minute to, to explain maybe why it would say that in this case, the Jews are saying to God, God says, I have loved you. And like, what are you talking about? How have you loved us when you gave us ISA? And, and in here, when we're talking about Jacob and Esau, we're no longer talking about the individuals, Jacob and Esau. Speaker 1 00:05:14 We're talking about the nations that they have produced. Their offspring. The nation of Esau has been a thorn in their side and caused a lot of problems and strife and struggling. And they said, why do you say God that you love us? If you gave Esau to be Jacob's brother and the bane of our existence, this nation that's next to us. And God says, I've, I've loved them, but I've, excuse me, I've loved you, but I've hated them. And, and this idea to me goes back to Jacob's wrestling match with God. In this sense, it says in the book of Mormon, God is not a respecter of persons. Those who serve him, he loves. And it says in the new Testament, Christ's teachings that if you keep his commandments, then he will love you. And you will abide in his love. But if you keep not my commandments, then you shall not abide in my love. Speaker 1 00:06:21 And so this idea's not, God has chosen Jacob, regardless of their behavior, their actions, again, speaking of this nation, but because of their actions, he still loves them and takes care of them. He would love Esau just as much if they had served him, the, in the same sense that Israel has. And I know that the entire old Testament appears to be a story about how Israel failed to serve God. It seems like they didn't do the greatest job of that. But take this into consideration in 4,000 years of history, what other religions still exist today? Preach brother. They have held on to God, despite surviving multiple holocausts. You look at what happened in world war II. You look at what happened when the Mongols invaded Europe and the Europeans thought that these devils that were coming from the outside was a curse that God was sending to them. Speaker 1 00:07:25 And so there was a Holocaust in ancient, European history, medieval European history, where they murdered all of the Jews to try to atone for the sins that the Jews had committed, just to get the Mongols to stop invading and destroying them. They've been scourged. They were destroyed by the Assyrians in the old Testament, the Babylonians, and yet they still worship the same God. And from this religion, Christianity has been born from this religion. You look at everything that has come from there, and it's almost the salt that for what it's worth, even though they crucified the Messiah, it almost hasn't lost its savor in that you have this peculiar people that still believe the same thing. They believe 4,000 years ago that still hold true Speaker 2 00:08:14 And a survived by the way, multiple super nations falling. You know what I mean? Like, like dynasty style, like countries nations, I mean the greatest, the greatest of armies, the greatest of countries have all changed, evolved, been destroyed. And yet the Jews are still around, man. Speaker 1 00:08:40 Yeah. Doing it. How many times have the Egyptian Dynasty's come and gone? A tear point? The Roman empire, the Greeks, the Persians Hittites. Mitanni the, I mean, yes. To your point. So maybe just to put a little bow around this, I mean, Esau wasn't like that. How many times did they stay faithful to the God or do they quickly go and turn to idols or different, different, whatever the people around them were worshiping and kind of, you know, like lot assimilated into the world around them rather than choose to sand stand separate like this light to the world. And, and just that bow that we're looking for. Jacobs wrestling match with God, regardless of what he sent and remember that this match, this wrestling took place through the night. So I think of night, almost as this apostasy, if you will, this time of darkness, regardless of what's going on, where they don't have these prophets guiding them anymore, or they don't have that, they still hold on to this belief in God, regardless of, of what's happening and how he is wrestling with them persecuting or whatever challenges they have to deal with. And when the light comes and the Messiah returns and they recognize their master because they held on and waited, he will bless them. That's that's why I think he's loved them is because they've loved him. Cool. All right, let's go into the story. So while they're dwelling in the land, Dina, Dana, how do you want to say it, Nate? Speaker 2 00:10:29 Uh, you're asking the wrong dude. Uh, Dinah Speaker 1 00:10:34 Dinah sounds like dinosaur. Sounds Speaker 2 00:10:36 Like a isn't there isn't there like an old American folk song, like Dinah wants you blow kind of won't you blow Dianne Speaker 1 00:10:45 Dina then Dinah. It is Speaker 2 00:10:47 Whatever Speaker 1 00:10:49 Diana goes into visit the other lady folk around her, make some friends there. And as she's hanging out with the girls, the high prince there Shekem decides to do, go and take her. And I think it's important here that it says this by force. Yeah. Because some commentators look at it and try to put the blame on her shoulders for, for going and meeting with these girls. And I don't, I don't see that she did anything wrong here. It's not saying that she was going and hanging out with the guys. I don't, I don't think we should be putting any blame here necessarily on her. It says that he took her by force. Okay. And then he loves her. If he loved her, why did he take her by force? But here, near there, he decides that he wants to make things right. And, and one thing in the old Testament, in the old world, the idea that marriage really was, I mean, what sealed the deal was this act of consummation. Speaker 1 00:11:47 That was a wedding. That's what it consisted of. The wedding was someone coming into the wife. And so where she hadn't known any other man, and he was going to try to make this right and say, okay, if I've married, you let's try to go working backwards here, return over to Jacob and try to negotiate dowery or whatever it takes to make this legitimate, try to fix this. He goes to Jacob and Jacob found out before he arrives, he asks his father to come and get the Bri, uh, to, to negotiate. But he shows up with his father and when they come and negotiate, the, the sons come in from the field. And because she is a daughter of Leah's it's Leah's sons, particularly Levi and Simeon that are incense, incest, upset and raged about this incidents. Incense. That's the word I was looking for. Speaker 1 00:12:39 Uh, I think that is enraged. Okay. Okay. So, so they, so they, they deal deceitfully it says, they say, if you want to marry us having no intention to intermarry by the way. And, and why should they Abraham's covenant was the idea that they would be their own nation and what Shekem and his father were proposing was that they would lose their identity as a nation that they would intermarry and, and sacrifice the blessings of their father, their grandfather, their great-grandfather and the promises of God. But they were going to do it anyways, in order to get them vulnerable so that they could destroy them for what happened. So they go in, they say, if you were going to enter Mary, you have to do the circumcision. And the, he says, all right, armies and everybody, right? Yeah. Every men man in the, in the city. Speaker 1 00:13:34 And so they agree and, and not only do they agree, but they go in, in every man in the city agrees and they think they do. It's a good question. I mean, did they all think that they're all now going to be getting wives from, that was part of the deal. They were supposed to be able to intermarry. So they, they, they go for it. And three days later, when they're feeling the most sore Levi and Simeon come in and just lay waste and kill every man, then it doesn't stop there because when they come back and they did what they had done, it says that Jacob sons went and took all of the spoils. So it's not just the two, but the whole family, if you will that go out and take the women, the children, the flocks, the gold, whatever it is, they take it all. Speaker 1 00:14:27 And, and the spoils might not be as bad as the original sin in the sense that in the ancient world, taking away all of the males in the society is, is really condemning that society to death. They don't have anyone to sustain them. And the idea that if, if your brother dies, you're responsible to take his, his wife and raise up seed for him and take care of his family, or the firstborn gets the birthright for the sole purpose of taking care of the daughters that haven't had a chance to marry or end up not marrying this idea that the family society relied heavily on a father. And if you've killed all the males, you've sentenced that whole place to death. So when we talk about looting and booty, it could have been almost as much as a salvation. Our responsibility is now to these people. Speaker 1 00:15:22 We must take them in and provide for them because we've taken away their means for, for being provided for what's the purpose of the story. I, I, I don't know if I have the greatest insight on that. It's, it's worth mentioning. It's worth talking about it does show up in the Joseph narrative a little bit. So that's the background in that and the context to it. And we're not going to shy away from it, but I don't know that I have the greatest insight for it either. And, and here's where it gets really weird right after this story, because Jacob is a poured by it and he says, what you have done it. All of the other people are larger than us. And if they get together and form a coalition, we're going to be extinct. Our promises from God are in jeopardy because of your actions, very upset about this, but the it's not like there's anything that's done. Speaker 1 00:16:21 They don't hold them accountable. They held the entire city accountable for the acts of one man. But for the acts of two brothers Jacob's family is kind of off the hook. And it's further demonstrated in the very next chapter when Ruben sleeps with his dad's concubine, when he takes bill ha how is that any different than what Shekim had done to Dena? And what's even more amazing to me is the role that Dena plays in this story. She doesn't say a word. We don't know if she loved him. She, we don't know how she felt about it. We don't know if she was on board with it. It's it's, she's quiet. She's silent. She's she's this victim. It is interesting though, that the Hebrew word Dina, the name means judgment. So when judgment arrived in Shekem, Shekem tried to abuse, judgment, tried to make, get their way with judgment, tried to twist it for their own gain. And so maybe there's something there. I don't know something to think about. That's the context and the backstory. Do you have anything, Nate? Speaker 2 00:17:36 You had kind of mentioned that maybe this has something to do. Excuse me, later on, though, with, um, with the reason that Joseph wasn't out, taking care of the flocks. Yeah. As the youngest at the, when I think that that's maybe an important thing to bring up too, to help explain maybe why that would have been the case. Speaker 1 00:17:55 Yeah. That's a, it's a good point. When we, when we later find Joseph at home and Jacob at home, but all of his brothers gone, that's weird. And the reason why it's weird, hopefully you've caught this, this year. We've come up a few times. The shepherding job was the despised job. It was the job of the youngest son. No, no, nobody wanted to do it. You just made the youngest son do it. You see it with David. When he was the, before he was the king, he was the youngest son. While all the other brothers got to go out to war, we it with Jacob and Esau here, you have this other family, all of the brothers should have been home. Joseph should have been out with the flocks. And it's not that it's not that they took well, let's take the next youngest son. No, they sent every son, but Joseph to go and do this, which is strange, this, this, this should raise flags for you. Speaker 1 00:18:59 And the interesting thing and how this ties into the story is that they were watering or taking care of their flocks in the land of Shekim. So the land that they had destroyed, and maybe Jacob had them go to the land of Shekim to water the flocked, as a reminder of what they had done. Maybe Joseph hadn't participated in the looting or the killing or the, whatever the case may be. And so Jacob, maybe this isn't a was for him an opportunity to take this. I mean, remember Jacob was the youngest who always aspired to be the first born. He doesn't have that same type of respect for the first one. Born necessarily should be. Maybe he's looking at Joseph as the younger one and saying, you know what? These older sons, I'm going to put Joseph first because of what happened here in these, these events and to help them see why I'm putting Joseph first, I'm sending them to check up and I'm making them all of them play the role of the younger son and having Joseph step up. Speaker 2 00:20:06 The problem is, is this doesn't do Speaker 1 00:20:08 Joseph any favors? No. Having, having Joseph protected in the very back of the family and kind of played as the favorite and then having him stay home and not have to do the chores when it's his responsibility and everyone house is out there doing it. And if we live in, Speaker 2 00:20:24 So putting him in the, on the spot and being like, Hey, tell me also, what's going on with your brothers out there. And I want you to be my spy, go be the informant. There'll be the informant. It's just like, Ooh. Speaker 1 00:20:33 And, and it's, it's not just Jacob that setting Joseph up like this because then God sends Joseph the dreams. Yep. That's right. And Joseph, Joseph, just like you see Jacob kind of go through transformation. I think Joseph early on, maybe, maybe he should have learned how to hold his tongue. I don't know. Maybe it's not necessarily how to hold your tongue. Maybe it's more about how he should have presented his dreams. Yeah, sure. But he, the way he presents them, interprets them at the beginning is very different from the end of the story. When we see how he interprets Pharaoh's dream, instead of taking this credit and trying to make himself out to be this incredible person, I have no ability to interpret your dreams. It's God. If God gives me that, then I can do it, but let the credit go to God. Not to, not to him. That's Speaker 2 00:21:26 That's great insight. Speaker 1 00:21:27 So, Joseph, Speaker 2 00:21:30 Yeah. When we get into the Joseph story, there's a lot of, there's a lot of funny things that you read kind of between the lines and the texts that are really explanatory of why things went sideways. But Speaker 1 00:21:44 Hey, and while we're, while we're talking about Joseph, we're going to be getting into, and we've talked about the story of Dina, which may or may not make a lot of sense. There's something I want to turn to our listeners. Okay. We we'd like to notice some of these things that maybe stand out and we go in and expound it and try to take a little bit of unique perspective. And we spend most of the time talking and you guys spend most of the time listening. I want to give you an opportunity to kind of turn that I w I want to call attention to something that I have noticed that I think is significant, but not explain it and give you guys the opportunity to try to come up with your own unique perspective or interpretation for what you think that that unique thing is may maybe spark some discussion. Speaker 1 00:22:37 Love it. So here's the deal. We're w w Jacob gives Joseph a coat of many colors, right? And this plays a significant role in the, in the brothers tear the coat, which is interesting in and of itself. I mean, we'll get down to I, right? There's a lot of legends with this coat. Uh, it, it shows up in the book of Mormon, this idea that if this, if this fragment of the coat still exists, as long as it does, we'll still have a lineage of Israel that can be protected and saved, but, but this tearing of the coat and this dipping it in blood is significant. Now later on in Joseph's life, he goes to Egypt and we're going to have a similar story in this, in the idea that Potiphar's wife grabs Joseph's garment and he flees and has to leave it behind. So again, he is being incriminated killed or sent away to prison. Speaker 1 00:23:37 It, and you have this coat left behind. And in some stories that even talks about how, when she had held it, that it tore a piece off and he had kept most of it and she had it. And so when she accused him, they had him bring his coat in, it matched the, this piece. Yup. And that's what they use to, to kind of sentence him and send them to prison. So here you have this, I feel like it's a significant part of the story, but I'm not going to tell you what the significance or what I think of it. I want, I I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts. I love that idea. And we've, we've been seeing a lot more comments coming in on the website. So if you go on to the, the, the post I had on education.com for, for the podcast, for this, for this week, underneath the episode, there's comments feel free to comment and I'll publish your comments and we can have a discussion and see if we can't make this more interactive on that point. I love it. Okay. But that does not mean we're going to run away from showing you some unique perspective. In this episode, Speaker 2 00:24:44 I asked you a quick question to you, sir. Is there any, is there any deep meaning to that? The, that the, uh, piece of incriminating evidence that he put, that he gave to Benjamin was a goblet or like a cup? Speaker 1 00:25:01 That's a great question, Speaker 2 00:25:03 Because I've thought about that. And I, I think that that's a pretty symbolic thing to, for whatever it's worth, but anyways, Speaker 1 00:25:09 Do you want me to add to that please? Because who gets saved in prison? Speaker 2 00:25:16 Is it the, is it the food guy? The chef, Speaker 1 00:25:18 Not the food guy. It's the cup bear. Speaker 2 00:25:21 Oh, is Speaker 1 00:25:22 It? It's the Speaker 2 00:25:23 Bear, the, uh, the, the cupbearer like the, not the nanny, the, uh, I don't know, Butler the Butler, the Butler, Speaker 1 00:25:32 The Butler, eh, they call it Butler. The Hebrew word is literally cup bearer. It's the one that poured the wine. Speaker 2 00:25:37 Okay. There you go. There's something else that there's a few things now for you guys to stew over and leave some comments on, Speaker 1 00:25:45 And I'll give you this in, in historical context, there's even a story about a cup bearer that actually becomes the king on accident. If this whole accident. Yes. It happened in history, the accident that the cup bearer becoming the king. It's an interesting story. Okay. And it kind of like this prince and the popper type story where w w where it comes from, maybe going back into, into history. So, excellent. Excellent observation, Nate. I'm glad. Speaker 2 00:26:17 Thank you. I appreciate that. I try to think deeply about things occasionally. You do. Okay. There you go. That's the thing on this week, let's keep going. Okay. Let's Speaker 1 00:26:26 This is going to tie into a Toman, uh, quite a bit, actually. Okay. Let's look at Joseph's life and I'm just going to give you a life sketch of Joseph and, and maybe just present it in a way to see if this sounds like anything familiar to, okay. Speaker 2 00:26:44 I love these things. So here Speaker 1 00:26:45 You have Joseph from, from Israel and his brothers take him and Ruben actually tries to save his life. I don't know if you noticed that in the text is his idea is to get him back to his dad. Judah also tries to save Joseph. And so he has a couple brothers that are trying to work to help him where the other ones don't, but that's neither here nor there they take Joseph and, and ultimately decide to throw him into a pit. Now, the word for pit shale is the same word for the spirit world, if she's still okay. Yeah. And this idea that you're going into the pit, you descend into the pit is symbolic of death. That's what it means. So you have this character who gets thrown into the pit, and when he arises out of the pit, he is sold by Israel to the, the Gentiles. Speaker 1 00:27:47 If you will. Now, the word Gentile is going, which literally means nations. And I think nations is a good way to describe that because it's first the Ishmaelites, and then they're going to sell them to the Egyptians. And he's actually going to change hands a few times here. So you have this idea of Israel. Is this, this going into the pit death, coming back out to the Gentiles, if you will. And then the Gentiles kind of embracing him, taking him in, but then he gets, he gets thrown into prison and kind of cast out onto the wayside and forgotten. But when he rises up out of his prison and, and, and kind of becomes this king it's first again to the Gentiles, and then he reaches out to Israel and brings them down into Egypt to be with him. What does that sound like? Speaker 2 00:28:44 I mean, are we, are we letting other people think about this? Are we answering this? I mean, this is pretty much the, uh, the history of Jesus coming to the Jews, the Jews rejecting him, him going to the Gentiles, the Gentiles, embracing them a great apostasy happening. And then when he comes back or is, um, restored, let's just use that word because it's convenient for this story when he is restored, uh, he is then back to the Gentiles. He is then tasked with bringing the Jews back into the fold. Yes, sir. Speaker 1 00:29:18 Yeah, baby. Yeah. And so looking at that story, Speaker 2 00:29:22 And even you didn't even, you didn't even prep me for this. I mean, it was a layup for whatever it's worth, but I appreciate the layup. Thank you. Thanks for, thanks for giving me an easy, Speaker 1 00:29:30 It's kind of cool. I love it. And if you read the story and you look at it, you almost think, well, if Christ is coming again, it should be first to these Gentiles and then to the, and then to the Jews. And it's interesting because Egypt is separated from the land of Israel when they leave and they flee, what do they have to do? They have to part the sea and cross the sea. And this idea that these nations, these Gentiles are separated by a sea, from the old land versus the new land. And, and Joseph has a son Ephraim, which Ephraim means a doubling the, that he's going to have two lands because he remembers the old land and the new land. And this idea that he from is going to go like a plant over the wall and inherit this new land. It's kind of interesting to see that this Joseph character and how it fits with the coming of the Messiah and, and, and the, the whole story, I guess, of the savior down to when he comes again and maybe one last bit of information to this, because he interprets the dreams of Pharaoh and the dreams of Pharaoh going to be the seven years of leanness. Speaker 1 00:30:38 And the seven years of fatness, he's going to set aside 20% of the lien, or excuse me, the abundance to, to save the world. Pharaoh gives him a new name. And do you know what the new name in Egypt is? Speaker 2 00:30:53 Hold on, let me think. Let me think. Come on. I can think of this. Uh, I Speaker 1 00:30:59 Don't know, savior of the world. Speaker 2 00:31:02 What's what is the, what's the name? Speaker 1 00:31:05 Uh, I don't remember, but it means savior of the world. It means, Speaker 2 00:31:09 And I thought it was a name that I was going to recognize and then kick myself Speaker 1 00:31:13 Knowing, no, I, I don't remember right off the top of my head, but it's in there, but he does give him a new name in the new name that he gives him his savior of the world, because that's the role that he's going to be playing is the role of the savior of the world. Awesome. And then you even have this idea of the two nations with, with Ephraim, him, NASA, kind of the similar idea that we've talked about with Jacob and Esau with, um, yeah, we, we we've seen this. We don't need to go down that road. All right. Okay. There is something that happens in this whole story though. That seems a little out of place. And I feel like this is in the old Testament. This, this is definitely worth talking about if we go to Genesis chapter, sorry. As I turn my page right here, um, chapter 37, and I'm going to read the end of 37, and then I'm going to skip chapter 38 and read the beginning of 39. Speaker 1 00:32:10 And usually when you skip a verse, you kind of, you, you, you notice you're missing some content chapter. Yeah. And if you skip an entire chapter even more so, right. Yeah. So let's see how bad off it sounds. If we leave this chapter out, verse 35, the end of 37 and all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said for, I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning, thus his father, Jacob, Jacob mourning, the loss of Joseph and the Midianites him on to Egypt on topographer an officer of pharaohs and captain of the guard. Okay. Skip the chapter 39. And Joseph was brought down to Egypt and Pottipher an officer of Pharaoh, captain. The guard in Egyptian brought him to the, um, bought him of the land, hand of the Ishmaelites, which had brought him down thither. And the Lord was with Joseph and he was a prosperous man. And he was in the house of his masters of Egypt that we miss anything. Speaker 2 00:33:09 Um, you know, that actually all sounded like it makes sense. It just flowed. Yeah. That sounded like a, make a lot of Speaker 1 00:33:14 Sense. So what did we miss in the middle? Speaker 2 00:33:16 Okay. Hold on. Let me think. Let me think. What are we missing in the middle? I mean, I don't know. He gets sold. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:33:22 He got sold to Potiphar Speaker 2 00:33:24 And I guess we got the, did we miss, did we already get the whole, like a renting of the coat and the blood and not that That's crazy. I don't know. What do we miss? Speaker 1 00:33:34 The story of Judah and tomorrow? Oh yeah. Speaker 2 00:33:37 Baby. Our, uh, our twins. Speaker 1 00:33:39 Yeah. So why is that story stuck in the middle of this story? Why would you interrupt? We interrupt this broadcast to present to you. The weirdest story, this commercial that's so important. Speaker 2 00:33:50 What do you love this story? I love the story. This is the arm coming out, right? This is the arm dude, Colin dibs. This is the baby. Speaker 1 00:33:57 Tom's out. You have, you have this weirdness of Judah's sons dying. And tomorrow he, him not wanting to give them to the third son because she's this widower. And, and unlike the story of Dina, I actually have a little bit more, uh, I liked the story a little bit more as far as it makes sense to me. So Judah goes and marries, uh, uh Canaanite which at this point in the Bible, we should recognize that that's something kind of frowned Speaker 2 00:34:29 Upon that's off limits, right? Speaker 1 00:34:32 Yeah. But he does it anyways. Okay. And when he does it, he has three sons. And the first son he gives to Tamar to be his wife, but the first son displeases God. And he dies. So the loss stipulates, if the brother dies, let's get the next to kin to redeem his line. So the second son, and now this is, this is another weird story. Doesn't want to have the response. He knows that if he has kids, they're not going to be his kids. They're going to be his dead brother's kids. That's not his line and he doesn't want to do it. So he spills his seed on the ground. And, and this has been used as, as an idea of, of this is why you don't engage in self gratification. And, and I don't know that I don't agree with that act, but I don't think this is an argument for that. Speaker 1 00:35:26 This is a whole different deal here. He's he's refusing to raise up seed to his brother. It's I don't think we should be confusing that with, with different sexual sin. Yes. There's a prohibition, but don't think that's the point of this story. Okay. So, because he is refusing to fulfill his responsibility and raise up seed for his brother, God's displeased with him and he's killed. Oh, whoa. Yeah. And it doesn't say how they're killed it. Doesn't give any context to it. It just, you know, he passes away without having kids. So now Judah has a third son and a responsibility to give to Mar to his third son. And, and he tells her to just wait until the son's old enough to get married. But when the son gets old enough to get married and Judah still doesn't do it kind of afraid of losing his last son, she, she schemes a scheme. Speaker 1 00:36:17 If you will, Judah's wife passes away. And as he's traveling, he passes into a spot tomorrow, finds out he's going to be going through this area. So she dresses up like a harlot and she waits by the roadside. And here's Judah who hasn't had a wife for a while. And, and it, and we know it's been a while because it says that he was comforted it's, it's not that she just barely passed away. He's able to have some time pass. And as he's going through this area, he sees Tamar and, and says, Hey, I'm going to, I'm going to go visit this prostitute. So, so again, the, the, the, this hypocrisy of, of how they treated Shekim versus how they're willing to act in among themselves. But anyways, Judah goes into tomorrow, not knowing it's tomorrow, because part of the garb of a prostitute is to cover her face. Speaker 1 00:37:17 And I think it's similar to when you're getting married, a wife wears a veil and kind of the symbol saying, I am ready to go into a man kind of idea that they wear this veil to cover their face. But also kind of this we've talked about the imitation that the cheap version, the, the, the corrupted version, right? So she's covering her face and, and Judah goes not recognizing who she is, but he doesn't have where with, to pay her. So he says, I will bring you payment later. But in order to guarantee that I will bring you pay payment, I will give you my signature. So a Cigna is this ring. Then on the ring, as a seal that he can push into and stamp with a unique mark that identifies him as Judah. And then also his staff, this, this, this sign of symbol of power. Speaker 1 00:38:08 And remember through Judah's line is the Kings are going to come and Christ. Ultimately, it's going to come. This, the staff is, is significant there. Well, she is not interested in payment. She was interested in doing what she was supposed to do all along. And that is keep the seed of Judah going. So she disappears. Judah comes back with the sheep, can't find her to save his life. And now he's worried that she can identify him with his ring. She is going to embarrass him a couple months, passed by, and Judah notices that his daughter-in-law is pregnant, even though he hadn't given her to, to his son. So he's ready to pass a death sentence on her and says, okay, we're done. We're done with her. Bring her out. Who did this to you? Whose whose, cause it was supposed to be my son, obviously it wasn't who, who did this happen with? And she said, I'll tell you who it happened with. And she gives Judah the signet, this Speaker 2 00:39:08 Just like, uh, do you ever watch a Jerry Springer? Speaker 1 00:39:16 Okay. Now I know about, Speaker 2 00:39:19 But this is, this is, is, this is about as like, oh, is it gets, it is Speaker 1 00:39:26 Okay. Oh, was it gets like, this Speaker 2 00:39:29 Is some awesome Speaker 1 00:39:30 Drama. Cause she had it. She has, she, she had it planned and ready to go. And all of a sudden you are. And all of a sudden Judah realizes what happened and, and he says, you didn't do anything wrong. I did. So why, why do I love this? Why do I love this? Speaker 2 00:39:52 Because it's just all amazing drama. Are you kidding me? The story is great. Speaker 1 00:39:56 No, I, I look at this as if you've, if you've got Judah, who's going to first, he takes a wife, that's a Canaanite right. An outsider woman and Judas kind of this outside woman. She's not a Canaanite doesn't say anything about her being a Canaanite, but Judah has kind of, uh, soiled his line if you will, by, by not being diligent. And you see him not being diligent and marrying a Canaanite, but then you see his sons being wicked and being slammed by the Lord. And then you see him failing to give him to the third son and fulfill the, the, the, the responsibility and ultimately him going into a harlot. And what is that supposed to signify? We have a covenant relationship with God to know doesn't just mean to know someone sexually. It means to be in a covenant relationship. And so when you're turning aside to a different wife, it's symbolic of turning aside to a different God or are failing to worship God. Speaker 1 00:41:00 So as Judah, we representing here, the, the, I mean, Judah is the Southern kingdom Jerusalem that the, these, that the remnants of Israel today is they, as they fail to recognize their God and turn aside into apostasy, what's happening is this outsider is coming in and brought in to redeem the line. And, and this idea of, I don't know, the interplay that you see between the Gentiles and the Jews. And so I see it kind of this interesting story, as we're talking about Joseph, going into the Gentiles and we talk about him being among them and going to be redeemed among the Gentiles, and then bring the Jews back into the house and the Jews having sold Joseph and given up on him. It seems like that story is embedded within this story to, to, to really drive that point home. I love it. It's interesting. Speaker 1 00:41:58 It's great. It's interesting symbolism. And where Joseph is this the savior of the world. This is what Pharaoh calls him. We have the story about the breech birth of the hand. And, and as a very unusual birth to have a hand first come out and then they have to identify, this is the first born. They grabbed the hand and they tie the Scarlet thread, the Scarlet thread around it. This isn't the first tire. She'd be this isn't the only time we'll see that Scarlet thread, their significance there, but the hand withdraws back into the womb and then the other son comes out. So now technically the second son is the first born, even though the, the he's not, cause he's not the one that breached first and then the other one comes out. And I look at that story. And again, I can't help, but think of, of us not being worthy per se, of being that first born son, but because Christ came and died and shed his blood that Scarlet wrapping around his hand, being symbolic of the atonement, we're allowed to become the first born. Great. And just as he came and disappeared and he will come again, this idea that he will return and come again and we will be exalted because of what he did, I think fits again with the story of Joseph, who, who was in Israel, who disappeared, who is going to make a triumphant return and save all of Israel as this image of Christ, mass, great stuff. Let's keep going. All right. Speaker 1 00:43:47 Um, okay. Another, another image of atonement with, with the story of the cup bear in, in prison and the, the bread, the baker, when here's, here's the, here's the thing, both of these guys are preparing food or something for Pharaoh to eat. They, they both served in his house and Pharaoh's going to lift one up to save and he's going to condemn the other to death. What happened? It's, it's interesting to think where they're both involved with serving food. Perhaps somebody got poisoned in the house and you don't know who it was. Was it the drink that they drank or was it the food that they ate and either case somebody and we're going to have to start this out, but there's an interesting ritual that was performed in Egypt. That kind of goes along with this, it's called the substitute king ritual. And this wasn't just practiced in Egypt. Speaker 1 00:44:45 It was actually practiced all throughout the entire near east. Then the idea is that you would have these wise men looking for omens or signs to know if you had displeased the gods. And so if an eclipse, for example, if the sun represented the king and something came in front of the block, the moon comes and blocks the light of the sun out. And it's all darkness that was symbolic, that, that king was going to die because he had displeased the gods and they would even look at partial eclipses. And based on what quadrant of the sun it was, was which land, which king had offended, God, therefore, which king is sentenced to death. Now, the key, knowing that he is going to die, tries to get out of it, like the powerful guy that he is. So they have this substitute king ritual where they take somebody usually on death row and they say, Hey, we're going to make you king for the day. Speaker 1 00:45:45 Yeah. And, and so they, they, they take him, they dress him up as the king and he becomes the king and he kind of feels out the day. And then at the end of the day, they, it depends on the society and the culture. Some of them, I think they would kill the king. And it is kind of an offering, God saying, look, our king offended, you here's our king. And now we're killing him to a tone for what he did so that we can go back to being good in your eyes. And some of them, it was just that he served as a lightening rod. If he died, he died. If he didn't, then that's good. We'll just put the king back on the throne and we'll keep going business as normal. But in Egypt you had this, this, this, right, this, this ritual, this idea that one would die so that the other would live. Speaker 1 00:46:33 And when you have this Butler and this cup bear one dies, and the other one lives, then as you look at this ritual in context of the atonement, when Christ was brought before the Romans, what did they do? They fashion a crown and put it over his head and put a robe around him. And they fix a sign above the cross that says king of the Jews. He became the substitute king that gave his life so that we could live knowing that each and every one of us had offended God and was worthy of death. He stepped in and took that role so that we could be exalted. So I, again, this imagery around the story of Joseph, it's just, I think oftentimes we, we, we recognize the story of Isaac very clearly, but we don't see all of this atonement that just kind of stacks up here with, with this young man. Speaker 1 00:47:44 And, and maybe one more significant point to bring out about Joseph is, you know, at the beginning of this episode, we talked about the story of Dina and how it didn't make a lot of sense in this sexual impurity and then Ruben doing the same thing. And then we have the story of Judah and his sexual impurity. And maybe, maybe all of this is kind of building us up for Joseph and Potiphar's wife, because he, it puts such stark contrast the decisions that he makes in, in Potiphar's house. When faced with temptation here, you had weakness, weakness, weakness, but this is what I think one of the most defining things about him in his character. And it talks about him being apparently extremely handsome. We kind of in the same way that they gush about Sarah Abraham's wife and the gush about, uh, Rebecca and Rachel, uh, Joseph inherited those genes or whatever, because that story kind of continues with him being extremely attractive. And, and some of the extra biblical sources talk about how the ladies were sitting there. I can't remember if they were peeling potatoes or what, but they're just cutting their hands up because they're just sitting there staring at him as he walks by. And they're like, what are you doing? But anyhow, neither here nor there. Um, Pottipher it says is an officer in, in Pharaoh's house. And the Hebrew word translated as officer is the same word for a castrated male or a unit Speaker 2 00:49:19 Unit. Interesting. And Speaker 1 00:49:21 So there, there could have been some, some issues there with Potiphar's wife, knowing that she couldn't have children being married to Pottipher, she couldn't become a mom and, and this desire to do that helped even pull her even more. So to Joseph, Speaker 2 00:49:42 Let me ask you a quick question. Yes, sir. Culturally, I guess I'm wondering what the rules are culturally, because again, as we've kind of talked about to this point, like if somebody can't have kids, if like, uh, if like a woman can't have, or bear children, she's legally required by law rights to provide somebody for her husband to have children with so that his line can continue. Right. Oh, Speaker 1 00:50:07 I like where you're going Speaker 2 00:50:08 With this. So I guess, I guess that's, that's kinda, my question is, is culturally culturally does, is, is there some sort of a, like a reciprocated, um, obligation here or, and maybe even another question too, that I'll kind of let you maybe run off on is, is what, what was the deal? Because I thought, I thought that when you would have a slave basically, or you would have a servant or something like that, basically they were at the mercy of whatever their master did or didn't want to do with them. Right. And so I guess my other question is too, is, is in this circumstance, would Joseph had been in trouble personally, had he just gone along with the program and was part of, for more upset that the story became, he tried as a slave to force himself on me and I screamed and whatever. Speaker 2 00:51:08 And he, once I started screaming, he ran away and the whole thing. Right. I guess I'm just wondering, is like, would it have, would it have even been better if it, if he had just gone along with the program and been like, oh yeah, my, my, if my wife wants to do that with you, your, the slave, that's what you, you do what she tells you to do. I don't know. Does that make sense? I guess I'm just wondering if like culturally there's, there's some even things too where it's like, I don't know if he exposed himself even more by just basically being like one, I'm not going to do that because morally it's not right. You know, but two, I'm also now breaking protocol by not letting my master decide what they want to do with me and accepting that my role. Speaker 1 00:51:48 Right? Yes. And it's almost a reversal of roles here. And even if it's not culturally, it's definitely literary as you look, he's taking on the feminine role of, of being good appearance, that, that his mom did that his grandma, that his great grandma that, that he's. And I love how you put that in context of almost like the, the, the handmade, the servant, that if you can't provide offspring, then you have to provide a handmade that can, so it's almost like these roles are switched and where I find that. So fascinating. Maybe I can tie this in, in Christ, in Isaiah chapter 53. Maybe I'll just read Speaker 2 00:52:33 That real. Okay. Now let's pull it up. Speaker 1 00:52:36 And, and I, I know we've talked about this earlier this year, and I know we're going to talk about it again. When we get to Isaiah, Speaker 2 00:52:42 We should just keep talking about it as much as it makes sense. I Speaker 1 00:52:44 Will talk about it over and over. I love Isaiah 53. And when we're talking about the role that Christ plays here, verse four, surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows. When you talk about bearing and caring, these are roles of, of a mother's a feminine roles. Yes. Yes. And then when it talks about, um, verse eight for he was taken from prison. Oh, and isn't that interesting when you talk about him being taken from prison and from judgment and who shall his generation for, he was cut off from the land of the living. So he's not able to have kids, but in verse 10, but it pleased the Lord to crush him. And he has put him to grief. And when you shall make his soul, an offering for sin, he shall see his seed. He shall prolong his days. And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand in verse 11. Speaker 1 00:53:48 And he shall see the Trevell of his soul and shall be satisfied. Again, Trevell this idea that he is bearing and caring. And when the atonement happens, now, he is travailing and giving birth to a new creature because you made his, is his soul an offering for your sin. Christ is taking on these very feminine roles. And, and it's interesting because when it says that he is led like a lamb, let's, let's, let's find that verse because that is also very significant. Uh, verse seven, he was oppressed and he was afflicted yet. He opened up his mouth. Joseph was extremely oppressed by his brothers by being, uh, unjustly accused by Potiphar's wife, by the cup, bare for getting him. When he came out, he was oppressed. Yet he opened not his mouth. He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter. Do you know what the Hebrew word for lamb is? Speaker 2 00:54:53 Tell me Rachel. No Speaker 1 00:54:55 Way. Really. Joseph's mom. Wow. And, and it's significant because here, Rachel, it's not a male lamb. You talk about a sacrifice and offering Lord make it a male unblemished, because it's like the savior in here. He's saying that he was brought like a female sheep, like Rachel to the slaughters. And so you, I don't know, I look at the atonement and, and this idea that because life Christ gave his life, he, he becomes our father, but almost the atonement becomes our mother and it takes this feminine role on it. So it's kind of interesting, as you were talking about that, that that's kind of where my mind went, this idea that he's almost like the handmade that is being offered here to try to raise up seed in this context. And in literary point of view, Speaker 2 00:55:51 There's also a lot of symbolism too. Like you talked about with the role of Christ, right. Um, when, when Christ was brought before the Sanhedrin, it was it an illegal time to be doing it. It was at night, wasn't it? Wasn't it on the Passover or, I mean, or wasn't it, I'm trying to remember exactly when, but from what I remember, basically it was, it was basically an illegal hearing, right? Like it was, it wasn't supposed to, it was not following any of the actual laws that he was Christ was very unjustly accused and found guilty without due process. Right? Yes. And you look at this story exactly. You know, you, you can look at it exactly the same way, which is, is Joseph. Not only didn't do anything wrong, but he actually did the right thing, but was unjustly accused was falsely, um, you know, convicted and basically judged jury execution or all, all outside of anything that he had actually done wrong. And so there's some symbolism to Christ there as well. Speaker 1 00:56:57 And maybe there's some symbolism in this too. When you look at you, look at what check them, did you look at what Ruben did you look at what Judah does and this idea that that may be maybe everyone around you is going to be unfaithful. Maybe everyone here in this world at some point in time is going to break our covenant with Christ or with God, and we're going to sin. But Joseph remained faithful in the face of temptation. He fled, we might forget, we might turn aside, but God has engraved in us on his hands. He will not forget us. He will not turn aside. He will not forsake us, but he will always be faithful to that covenant that he has made with us as long as we're willing to be his Speaker 2 00:57:50 Last thought real quick. Um, I also do love the symbolism of Joseph and Joseph, right? In a prison. Wondering if God forgot about him, anything else you want to talk about? I had a lot of good stuff in there this week. Speaker 1 00:58:06 Th there's a lot of good stuff. There's some fun things that we could talk about. I don't know if we're, if we want to do something just off topic, not necessarily off topic. What am I trying to say? I feel like in this episode, we painted in some pretty broad sprout pro prod. Let me try to talk, okay, Speaker 2 00:58:27 It's late. Maybe I get it Speaker 1 00:58:28 This way. It's been a long week. It's been a Speaker 2 00:58:30 Long week. It's been a long day of a Speaker 1 00:58:32 Long week. We've painted, we've painted in a lot of broad strokes and, and we've tried to focus on, on the symbolism of, of what we're reading and how it relates to, to Christ or how the story of Christ relates into the old Testament. I love the old Testament because it provides that context to really understand what Christ is doing and, and why he's doing it and where it comes from and how it fits. There's some other stories that, that overlap with this, that if we want it to, to it, I don't, I don't like clashing them in with, with these broad strokes, if we wanted to maybe take a little time sometime. Okay. Because there's, there's Pharaoh reacts to his wife in an extra biblical source. He he's upset, but he's more upset because he knows the character of Joseph and he knows the character of his Speaker 2 00:59:28 Wife. Yeah. I've, I've wondered about that actually. And he Speaker 1 00:59:31 Knows exactly what happened here. He's not deceived by it. And, and the story goes that when Joseph is brought out of prison, Pata for, goes to his wife and says, I am undone because remember he was a servant in Pharaoh's house. And now Joseph is over all of the servants and Pharaoh's house, just like he was over all the servant. Pottipher was the, the Lord. Now all of a sudden Joseph, instead of being under Pottipher is what Pottipher was to Joseph. And so he's like, I can't go to work tomorrow. I've got to, I've got to stay home. I'm too embarrassed to show my face. And he makes his wife write out an apology to give to Joseph. What? So there's a letter, it's an apology letter from Potiphar's wife for wrongfully imprisoning, Joseph, the Speaker 2 01:00:24 All right. Maybe we can, maybe we can get a bonus episode in sooner or later. I mean, I love going over that stuff, but again, to me, it's like, I almost don't want to muddy the waters with all of the great stuff in this week. Speaker 1 01:00:36 Right. And I love the Bible for what it says for what it doesn't say. And maybe if we want to have some fun and talk about, I mean, the reputation of Israel, when you talk about what they did in and check them, these guys were fierce and there's a reason that people respected them and there's legends about their, their conquests and whatnot. So there's some, there's some cool things we could talk about this time, period. I just don't feel like it fits per se of this. Speaker 2 01:01:03 That's totally fine with less. Let's see if we can't maybe get a little bonus episode for those that would be interested in that stuff. And then, um, again, please continue to share with your friends. Thank you guys so much for continuing to do that. Our numbers again, can continue to just steadily increase in word, thrilled that more and more people are getting a chance to listen to this. Hopefully your enjoying it. Hopefully you're getting a lot of good information out of it. Hopefully it's not, um, just information without a little bit of, I don't know, personality. Um, we really love doing this, but we really love doing it because of the feedback that we get from you guys, our listeners, and we really appreciate it. So thank you guys. And Speaker 1 01:01:38 I could remind you just one, one, yeah. Quick bill, the significance of the coat and why is it that he has a torn here with, with, or taken away from him rent? Yeah. What do you, what, what are you, what are your guys' thoughts? Let's hear your insight and unique perspective, www.addoneducation.com. Let's see if we can have some good discussion from you guys, give you the floor and see what you have to say about it and kind of have a discourse that way and get you involved in that. Speaker 2 01:02:09 Love it. Um, I think that that's a, I think that's what we got for this week. Anything you want to talk about for next week or should we just have it be a surprise? Speaker 1 01:02:17 Uh, next week we're kind of getting to the end when, when Jacob and his brothers come back, this reunion, this kind of the Southern redemption story, you know, you talk about Jacob and Esau. We're going to have Joseph and his brothers. Speaker 2 01:02:30 I love this part of the story too. I, I have some thoughts. So I'm excited to, uh, I'm excited to get into this with you. Um, and so then I guess tell next week via