Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 We're a V part two part, two part. Um, instead of doing even our opening music, we're just jumping in because there's a little bit of a bonus episode, go home, go home and listen to bonus, go home and listen to, uh, or if you already are a horn in the car, listened to the song, science by system of a down. Cause there's some profound, there's some profound, um, lyrics in there about the, the marriage of science and religion, which was a big theme from last week. We were listening to it before the show started. So that's the only reason we bring it up. That's instead of our bump music this week, if you would like a little bit of a bump music, go listen to that's three minutes long. Sure. You don't want to sing
Speaker 1 00:00:41 At night. Science
Speaker 0 00:00:42 Says I'll recognize the single most Borden's I'm not going to sing it. I'm just kidding. And then Jason, there we go. That's all we needed was just you hitting us. Yeah. All right, Jason. Welcome
Speaker 1 00:00:53 The bonus episode of the weekly deep dive podcast. We're covering a little bit more of Noah. So last week is Nate and I were talking. There was just, it felt like so much spilling over. Even after the episode was done recording, we wanted to come back and hit a few things. So let's um, let's talk a little bit about
Speaker 0 00:01:15 The birds. Okay. Let's talk about
Speaker 1 00:01:17 The birds. So when Noah gets to the end of the bill and the water is drying up, he's he's hit ground, eh, he obviously knows he's hit ground E and, but he doesn't know if he can open up the hatch because two thirds of the arc is underwater. And if you still have 10 feet of water, cause they are, it's about 30 feet high, maybe more depending on how you define a cubit and, and the water is still there and it's going to flood in or cause problems. He's got to wait till it recedes. And he can't see quite where it is out of the window that he's created the opening or whatever the case may be. That he's his viewport. So, so he sends forth a Raven. And the interesting thing about a Raven, I think a lot of people try to associate that with the death and carnage that comes with the flood and the destruction, because they say that the Raven just went out there and fed on the car, the carcasses and the Raven is a Blackbird symbolic of death, as opposed to the dove.
Speaker 1 00:02:16 That's going to go out there as the holy ghost representing life. But I don't think the whole purpose is just to have a Raven go feed on the carcasses. I think doesn't make any sense. No, I there's a little bit more behind this maritime when we're talking about sailors. Okay. And, and you know, you've got the pirate there with the bird sitting on his shoulder, kind of a classic image comes to be that there's actually a significance to the birds. When you send that, when you're out there sailing, you can't always see the stars. You can't always tell where you're at and where you're going to be, but you send that bird out and it has this innate ability to find land and it's searching for something it's searching for what it to be there. And instinctively knows where to go to find it. And so as he sending this Raven out, it says in Genesis knocked that the Raven doesn't come back.
Speaker 1 00:03:08 But rather that the Raven goes to and forth. So if this Raven's instinctively going out and finding land, however far away, it is from where they're at, as the arc is grounded in its spot and coming back and going and coming back the time it takes for it to go and come back is giving Noah an idea of how fast those waters are receding until finally Noah states or states in Genesis, that Noah becomes aware that the water has now receded off the earth. The Raven just goes and it's land all over. Okay. But, but he needs scientifically speaking. So this is, this is from a science perspective. Noah is using his wisdom here. The dove is a different bird. The dove is going to be trying to nest and unlike a Raven, it's not going to be looking for some Rocky cliff edge somewhere.
Speaker 1 00:04:04 That's going to be looking for a flat, horizontal place. The arc is actually a fairly good spot for a dove to build a nest. So as the dove is going out, you would think it would be kind of weird if Noah's just sending a dove out. How does it know that he's going to be bringing a branch back? Well, that's the whole purpose it's trying to, to build this nest. And it is, it takes a branch. And what happens with plants? If you give them too much water, the roots get waterlogged. The plant dies and it's not able to produce green. Okay. But as it breaks these in, it brings it back. And at one point in time, no one notices this olive branch that has greened that has new life. And now he knows not only that the water has receded from the earth, but that the mud is receded from the ground itself, that it stable enough, that new life can now come.
Speaker 1 00:04:53 Okay. So Noah's relying on the scientific side of things, but we also see a very symbolic faith side of this story as well, because Noah does not open the door and come out of the Ark. At this point, he still waits even further. And it has to be the voice of God, seven days later telling him now it's time for you to come out. If he was just waiting for God all along, why, why do they even send the two birds out before? And what I see here is not just a science application to understanding his surroundings and understanding the world around him. But I see a faith based progression where you go from the Raven, which is representing this, this innate ability to find land. You know, there's something more for you like the light of God, like the light of Christ that lights everyone that's born into the world.
Speaker 1 00:05:48 We have this quest, this desire to, to know who we are, where we come from, and this drives us to the next progression. Hopefully that light steers us enough to where we can now receive. And it's the symbolic of the dove is returning greater light and knowledge by breaking off these branches, but also symbolic of the holy ghost and the spirit and the whole purpose of the spirit is to bring you to Christ. So the spirit prepares Noah, he's bringing the doves, preparing Noah, bringing him more information, but ultimately as he stays faithful, he receives the second comforter, which is as Joseph Smith describes God himself, being able to have that, that confirmation, that voice of God telling him what to do. Awesome. Fantastic. That's some great insight. Yeah. Something else that I found super fascinating this, uh, this week as we were studying, uh, when we talked about Enoch, I said, one of the most powerful lessons I learned from Enoch was when he sees the heavens weep and he sees God weep over these people.
Speaker 1 00:06:59 And he says, how can you weep over the residue to the point where he starts weeping is a touching story and it teaches us about charity and that final, what does it take to become a God? Well, when reading from, from some of these other ancient near Eastern materials talking about, uh, this comes from a serious library, dating back to 700 BC and the account that they have of the flood, it says, quote ish, tar cried out like a woman in Trevell the sweet voice mistress of the gods, Mons aloud, the anarchy gods, weep with her, the gods, all humbled sit and weep, their lips drawn tight one and all. So I think it's cool because you don't get that account in, in the Genesis. You get it from Joseph Smith's inspired version. As he's talking about this, the story with Enoch and God and the heavens weeping all played out in detail.
Speaker 1 00:07:56 And yet this inspired version from Joseph Smith has a parallel or, or an example coming from not, not the Bible, not a source you would even be familiar with, but other ancient texts that kind of reaffirm or re re I don't know, what's the word witness to, to this, this inspired truth. That's awesome. That's awesome. I've never heard that before. Um, one other point is in, in the epic of Gilgamesh, just to paraphrase this at the end of the deal, Gilgamesh is going to Noah because Noah becomes like a God and he wants to understand how it is that he became like a God. When he, when he gets there, he's shocked. Eh, because he expected to see a God. He says, I, as I look upon the, they features were not strange, even as I am art thou, tell me, how did you join the assembly of gods?
Speaker 1 00:08:55 And as Noah responds, it's fascinating because he says that God went aboard the ship. And then he held me by the hand and brought me into the ship. So it was, we've been talking about this arc. Interesting. Yeah. As a temple. And as we talk about the, the, the temple that sealed with pitch on the outside and the inside, and this was a veil because it kept the wicked people out. They could not pass through the Ark to be saved, but God comes into the ship, takes Noah by the hand and brings him into his presence in the ship. And once he brings them into the presence, he takes his wife and brings here into the presence. And then he stands between the two touches their forehands and blesses them saying, hitherto, have you been, but human henceforth, you and your wife shall be like unto us.
Speaker 1 00:09:49 God's wow. It's a cool story. That's amazing. That's some, again, some incredible insight there. And this comes from Asher Bana, Paul's library in a Syria. When we talk about a Syria, we don't typically think of the religious God-fearing believing in the same old Testament stories as we, we credit them more with the destruction of Israel. So going back to this account, we we've talked about Adam falling in this, this quest to receive restoration that the paradise, we see Enoch who was thrown on the right hand of God and became as it was God, we, and now we're seeing this account with Noah, this idea of redemption being able to go back into paradise and reclaim that, which was lost through, through the journey that he had to go through. So I think that's kind of cool putting the arc in that temple, like setting and showing that progression, that salvation, salvation doesn't mean that we get to worship God.
Speaker 1 00:10:49 It means we get to be like, God, and that's what it's all about. How do we, how do we be like unto them? How do we come unto him and how do we return to be with him? Fantastic. All right. And maybe the highlight of, of what we were talking about last week takes us back to the window itself. As we were looking at this idea of pressed oil and, and for me, I think it came a little bit slower trying to make that connection between oil and light, uh, because the, the, the word itself was re referencing glistening. Um, but the, the name for annointing oil comes from the same verb of pressing this oil. And it's the same oil that is used in lamps that you burn. And so oil doesn't just represent light because it glistens and it reflects light oil becomes the source of your light. And, and I mean, we can talk about the parable of the 10 virgins,
Speaker 0 00:11:53 Right? I think we should. I, I mean, that's, that's immediately when you, uh, when we were kind of going back and forth a little bit on Sunday, which was why I was just like, oh, we got to do this bonus episode was because even when I, even when I sent you, uh, even when we were just texting back and forth, and my phone tried to auto-correct lamp into the little like emoji, and then I let it correct it. And then I was just like, oh, by the way, what does that lamp look like? Like do this with your phone right now, if you're listening to this and your phone kind of tries to, auto-correct the, the words you use in the word picture into the picture. And it's interesting. Cause I'm like, Hey, what does this look like? You're like, oh, that looks like a vessel that, yeah, it's a boat.
Speaker 0 00:12:37 It looks like, it looks like what is described as the arc. And then you're like, oh my goodness, that even that even got us on a whole other tangent to that too, but it is interesting to your point then too, to think of, okay, that, that vessel or that thing, holding it. And again, I'm, I'll let you, because you I'm sure have more of an intense cause I've just been trying to think about this. I'm like, there's, there could be a lot of symbolism with that thing that holds within it. Like you said, the fuel for that light, right. Which again is, is the flame at the top of that thing. Right. Even almost kind of visually symbolic of that arc and at the top of it being the light or the fuel for that light. And that's when I was like, okay, I must be, there's gotta be a great link into the parable of the 10 virgins here. And, and, and you have some really great insight on this,
Speaker 1 00:13:29 Going back to this window, right. How, how does one word get translated? And in one sense, by Jonathan saying that it's a stone that he finds in a Riverbed, uh, versus a source of light versus oil pressed oil, and how, how do you have those many different meanings, but as you were talking about that, when you showed me that picture of the, the lamp and your text on accident or whatever the case may be, it even made me think that lamp is made out of baked clay. It is a rock, it is a rock from which light is shining and that's awesome. And where's that flame what's fueling that flame that's causing that rock to glow is the oil that that's inside of it. And, and so, yeah, instinctively, I think we both kind of went to this parable of the, of the 10 virgins. And I know this is all new Testament stuff, but, uh, excuse us. Uh, I, it's a bonus episode. It's a bonus episode,
Speaker 0 00:14:23 Do whatever we want. And I love the new Testament.
Speaker 1 00:14:26 So when we talk about these 10 virgins, all 10 of them had oil in their lamps. And I think maybe that's a distinction. We don't quite get, all of them were full. It's not like one had a lamp that was full. And one had a lamp that was half full or almost empty. All of their lamps were full. The difference between the five whys and the five foolish where that the wise ones took a second vessel with them, with oil in it, to refuel the lamp when it ran out and the, and the foolish ones, they, they didn't have that backup vessel. And you can almost, we've been talking about this a lot. Maybe you're sick of us. Don't want to throw a tomato at us, but that's the benefit of doing a podcast instead of a live audience. We don't catch a vegetables,
Speaker 0 00:15:16 We should do a live thing someday. That would be great. It would be
Speaker 1 00:15:19 Fantastic. I would love it.
Speaker 0 00:15:20 If you ever want us to come and do a fireside, I don't know if we can, but still, okay. Keep going.
Speaker 1 00:15:25 I know a theater, we could run out in everything that you just let us know. Okay. Anyhow. Um, the difference is, do you want to be walking with your hands full with both hands being burdened? If you think if you, if you look at the extra effort it's going to take to take this second vessel and have this preparation and carry the extra weight and have both of your hands occupied while you're going somewhere, it's very easy for you to want to take the easy way out and just say, you know what, this one's full. It's going to be enough and I'll be fine. And just leave it behind.
Speaker 0 00:16:03 And to the point too, is it takes preparation to even go get it in the first place. And, and to, to the credit of the five foolish virgins, right. At nighttime. Cause I always used to think like, oh, they don't, they, they didn't, they didn't get to partake or be a part of this whole thing. Because then when it got dark outside, they didn't have any more fuel for their lamp. And I'm thinking to myself, no, like if you have five of your friends with lamps around you, it's not like, it's not like you can't see your way to get to the party. Right. And, and it's interesting, cause this is when we talked about this and I hadn't told you this, but, but I was, I, a lot of the connections I was making with this was, oh, this isn't, this isn't what I always thought it was.
Speaker 0 00:16:50 Which is, oh, you can't see your way. I'm like, look, if there's, if there's a whole wedding procession happening, in theory, you don't, you can use somebody else's light. Right? In theory, in theory, you can, you can get to the party following somebody else's lighter or somebody else or, or a group of people that have light. But what you don't get to do is participate in the ceremony itself. If I understand this correctly is that you can, you can actually get, get to where you need to go by using somebody else's light. But that's not the point that the point is that the end is okay, but like what, what do you have at the end? Like what did you wear? What were you, if you want to be actually participating, you need to, you need to have your own source of light from within. And, and again, like, I, you, you know, all the details of the ceremony. And again, a lot of this was just kind of reminded even from like when I was reading Jesus, the Christ, but that a lot of the, a lot of the misunderstanding is, is that you don't get to necessarily participate in the entire wedding process unless you have a lamp that has fuel in it. And you're not just showing up to the party hanging out.
Speaker 1 00:18:09 And I think understanding this process, this, the whole wedding ceremony and how this works adds a lot more clarity to the story, because it seems harsh that you show up at the door a little bit late and they say, we don't know, you get out of here when, when you're an invited guest, right. That seems, it seems a little bit cruel. And, and part of the deal too, is all 10 of them fall asleep, not just the foolish ones, the wise ones. And why did they not have enough oil? It says the groom tarried, the groom took his time. The groom showed up late. So, so maybe, maybe what they had would have been sufficient. It's a very easy at this point to blame the groom and say, Hey, had you shown up on time, I would have been prepared. I would have had my light.
Speaker 1 00:18:57 I could have been there in the procession and I could have been part of that celebration. So it's not my fault. It's the grooms, but you don't see that going on here. So let's, let's get a little bit more context to this wedding ceremony and see if the shines light on the setting. So what happens is the groom's got to go to the bride's house. He's got to negotiate with the father dowery and the terms of the agreement. The father's gonna agree and, and things are gonna be set up. Now, the groom's got to return back to his father's house and at the father's house, he has to prepare a room for him in his new bride to consummate the marriage. So in Jewish history, there was no ceremony or right. Really the, the, the, the action that sealed the deal that that wrapped it in was, was the consummation of the marriage itself.
Speaker 1 00:19:59 That's, that's what the action was that made it a binding agreement. So he has to prepare this room, this honeymoon suite in his father's house. So when Christ says in the new Testament, I go to my father's house, my father's house, there are many mansions while he's preparing this room for his bride and he can't leave until his father approves of the honeymoon suite. So no one knows how long it's going to take the groom himself might not even know how long it's going to take. It depends on how much preparation needs to go to making this room, right? Maybe he's more prepared. Maybe he's less, maybe his dad's a little bit more of a stickler. No one knows. So the ones that are invited to the wedding are going to be along the path between the bride's house and the groom's father's house. So when the groom comes and grabs the bride and returns to his house, they can join along that procession there's proof that they're invited they're part of this group and they go into the father's house.
Speaker 1 00:21:03 And this is where they're going to celebrate over the next seven days. But the bride and the groom are going to separate, withdraw from the party, go into the wedding chamber and consummate the marriage, make it a binding contract, make it. Now you are your husband and wife. And so if anyone shows up late to the party, the bride and the groom are indisposable, they, they is that the right word? Indisposed, indisposed. Thank you. They're indisposed. They're not able to, to come out and recognize you and say, yes, this is right. So if you're not, if you're a friend of the groom or a friend of the bride, but not necessarily family are not necessarily part of this group, you've got to be in that line or else they, you run the risk of them. Not recognizing you when you get there, because the groom can't vouch for you
Speaker 0 00:21:55 In the line of holding a lamp, right. If it's at nighttime holding a lit lamp, right? Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:22:00 Holding your, your lit lamp. Okay.
Speaker 0 00:22:02 Keep going.
Speaker 1 00:22:04 Um, I, I, I think that's, that that's about as far as the customer,
Speaker 0 00:22:09 And then you, I mean, you had just mentioned like, again, like it's, it's, we don't, we don't think that the, uh, the Jewish people still follow the same tradition, but then after that they come out of the room, they,
Speaker 1 00:22:20 Yeah. So the consummate, the marriage, and the idea that the sense is the bride is supposed to be a Virgin. So when she's having a F um, this intimacy for the very first time, it's supposed to stain the sheets with blood, and then he brings out the sheets after they consummated as proof. So a little bit of discretion here, nobody needs to see what's happening, but here's the proof that we are now, man, and wife, that we are now married and that she was a Virgin and brings out that as, as evidence, which also puts pressure and helping understand why Joseph was in an awkward situation when he's going to marry Mary, and how can he, how can he bring out the sheets and prove when everyone can see that, that she's already with, with child, right. It helps understand a little bit of the pressure that he was under in understanding the customs and the traditions and whatnot. Anyhow, this was symbolic of a blood covenant, and, and we'll get into covenants next week when we talk well at the end of this week, when we talk about Abraham a little bit more.
Speaker 0 00:23:29 That's awesome. And so, um, again, like that's what I love about what I love about the, the, the usage of the words in this. Like you said, how it can mean so many different things is that there's really amazing, kind of like lessons to be learned from each of these. And, and I, and I do love, like you said, how the arc represents a temple, right. Or are in so many ways, but so do our bodies, right. We're told that our bodies represent or are a temporary vessel. That's exactly right. And that's what I guess I love, I love it. Anytime when we're learning about something that represents a holy place or a temple. So many of those parallels, if not, all of them can, can be directly, uh, um, you can directly draw from those, the same parallels to us as individuals, or as humans are, are, are humanly vessel, right?
Speaker 0 00:24:26 Like you said, by the way, a, a vessel made from the clay of the earth, right. That holds, that holds, that holds this fuel for light. You know, that, that within us innately is this is this, um, this, this fuel to let our lights shine. And in third NIFA, when we learn what is, what is our light that we need to let shine? Well, that's Jesus, that's, that's our testimony of Christ. Right? And that the more we do to put the work in to even when it's not the most convenient, or sometimes not the most fun to always be refueling or to always be, um, ready with more, um, w you know, I don't know with spare oil, I guess, right? Like the more that we do to make sure that we are spiritually prepared for when it does get dark outside, and we can no longer necessarily rely on the light of somebody else's lamp, but to prove that we're there for the party, we need to be able to hold up our own lamp. And, and, and, and in the darkness be able to say, oh, no, no, I've prepared for this. I've prepared for when things are bleak, I've prepared for when things might be dark outside to hopefully be a beacon for other people to come to, right. To hopefully be a beacon for other people to come and, and hopefully inspire them before it's too late as well.
Speaker 1 00:26:02 And I love in this parable because we're going to see this a lot in the old Testament that the adversary in this case is almost really the groom, the Lord. He's the one that Terry's, when we talk about Jacob and how he gets the name Israel it's because the adversary, the Lord is wrestling him, right? The Lord is the one that waits and bless it are those that wait on the Lord. And when Adam and Eve are offered the fruit, is it not because the Lord's waiting to give them and they can wait on
Speaker 0 00:26:35 The Lord, their impatience? Yes,
Speaker 1 00:26:37 It's, it's that impatience. And, and sometimes we feel like we have enough, or it's just enough, but enough isn't good enough. Because when we have to wait on the Lord to understand, is, is just going through the motions and just doing everything that we were told, going to be enough to, to, to get us through having to wait on him before he reveals and, and relieves our burden or relieves our trial. If we're, if we're struggling like Paul, who's praying three times for that thorn to be removed from his side. If Paul didn't have extra oil and waiting on the Lord for that affliction, that was never ultimately removed from him instead, it served as a gift to keep him humble.
Speaker 0 00:27:27 Fantastic. Um, send us any of your other thoughts, comments, this, this week's episode, just, I mean, we were, we were T we were chatting too much about it, and there was too much good stuff after that we really wanted to get in, give you guys a little bit more for those of you teaching, um, Sunday school classes. For those of you that are just interested in the history of this, we hope that it was worth giving us an extra 30 minutes of your day. We do appreciate you listening, um, for any other like thoughts or insights on this, please hit us up because we've, our minds have been racing with this one, and we've been having a really awesome experience, just even kind of talking through this. Um, we will be getting together in a couple days again, to record, um, for next week. But, um, but let us know, let us know if you have any other ideas or thoughts. Um, Jason, anything else you want to add? Yeah. Quick shout out
Speaker 1 00:28:21 To Susan who a week prior asked me about the parable of the 10 virgins, which really got me diving into it. So really phenomenal. So it was, it was fresh on my mind as we, as we started going down this road.
Speaker 0 00:28:36 That's awesome, Susan. Yeah. Thank you, Susan. Thank you for listening. Thank you for your questions. That's crazy that it totally was timing wise. Yeah, the timing of that's crazy. All right. Um, Jason, let's get back in a couple of days and let's, uh, let's keep this going. All right. See ya.
