[00:00:15] Speaker A: Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the add on education network. The podcast where we take a look at the weekly come follow me discussions and try to add a little insight. Insight. Insight and unique perspective. Your host, Jason Lloyd, here in the studio with our friend and the show's producer, Nate Pyfer.
[00:00:32] Speaker B: Do you know how many carbs are in a little thing of cashews?
[00:00:36] Speaker A: Can I take a guess?
[00:00:37] Speaker C: Tell me.
[00:00:38] Speaker A: I'm going to guess. 80.
[00:00:40] Speaker B: No, not that much. Don't be crazy.
[00:00:43] Speaker A: Well, it seemed like you were coming in high.
[00:00:47] Speaker C: To me.
[00:00:47] Speaker B: I didn't realize nuts had so many carbs in them.
[00:00:51] Speaker A: They got a lot of fat.
[00:00:52] Speaker B: They got a lot of protein, which I'm down with. Which I'm down with. Yeah, but this little bag that I'm eating has 13. 13 grams of carbs in it and only 1 gram of fiber. I'm like, give me a break, bro.
[00:01:02] Speaker A: Oh, I was thinking calories. How many calories?
[00:01:05] Speaker C: Let's find out.
[00:01:06] Speaker A: I was way off talking about carbs.
[00:01:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:01:09] Speaker A: Whoa.
[00:01:11] Speaker B: 240.
Yeah. You shouldn't have even told me to look at that.
[00:01:18] Speaker A: Rich in energy.
[00:01:20] Speaker B: What's up, buddy?
[00:01:21] Speaker A: You know, I'm happy. I'm happy to be here. I'm happy to be talking to Book of Mormon. I feel like we've had a fun launch into the Book of Mormon.
[00:01:29] Speaker B: Last week was the barn burner.
[00:01:31] Speaker A: It was. I apologize for all of you who are still trying to find your way through that lone and dreary wilderness.
[00:01:38] Speaker B: There you go.
[00:01:40] Speaker A: I think there's a parallel for you tonight in Lehigh's travels.
[00:01:43] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:01:44] Speaker A: And I promise this episode's not going to be near as long. I don't think anything else will. I had to get that out of my. Just the first few chapters.
Boy, those live in my soul. I just had to get that out.
[00:02:00] Speaker B: Well, we got it.
It was the definitive, definitive breakdown on chapters one through five of first Nephi.
[00:02:08] Speaker A: I'm sure we still left some stuff out, but it was good. It was fun. All right, we're going to talk. So tonight we're covering chapters six through ten. Just to give you kind of a brief overview of what we're looking at.
They have the plates that they got from Laban. They're going to be reviewing those plates going through here. Lehi for Lehigh, this is a big deal. He wanted to see his family connections. He's been trying to keep his genealogy, but to have this link is a big deal for him. He's going to prophesy about his seed, and that's going to kind of spark like, wait a second. How am I going to have seed if I'm just taking my boys into the wilderness? That's not good.
And give him the idea, wait, we got to go back. We got to get some wives for them. We got to keep things going.
And then I guess the big thing that's going to happen in tonight's reading is the vision of the tree of life.
I think that'll be fun to get into. Nephi talks a little bit about why he's writing and gives us a little bit of history about the different plates.
Let's dive in. Let's dive in.
[00:03:21] Speaker B: Can't wait.
[00:03:23] Speaker A: And one thing you need to know that I got to borrow from last week in chapter five. And this is verse 16. And thus my father Lehigh did discover the genealogy of his fathers. And Laban also was a descendant of Joseph, wherefore he and his fathers had kept the records. And now when my father saw all these things, he was filled with the spirit and began to prophesy concerning his seed.
All right, now we're going to go chapter six. We get this little detour talking about the plates and why he's writing and the commandment he gives his kids, which I think is important because we talked about this either last week. I think it was last week, right, when you asked, what is the motivation for him doing this? And it is a commandment he gives. And so maybe that's why we get some of these one line entries from generations later on, right? But after we interrupt that in chapter seven, it says verse one. And now I would that you might know that after my father, Lehi had made an end of prophesying concerning his seed, and you're like, wait, what?
I feel like I was down in the valley again with the golden calf while Moses is up in the mountain having this wonderful experience, Lehi is prophesying about all these things that are going to happen to his seed, and instead, Nephi is going to interrupt that to tell us a little bit about why he's writing. I just want to know what he prophesied about concerning his seed. And it's becoming a regular pattern with Nephi. He's going to leave a lot of that out, and it's up to us maybe to get the greater part. And Nephi shows us that this is possible because we're going to get to the point where Nephi is so desirous that he also seeks this out. He gets these revelations, and now he is prophesying concerning his seed and his prophecies become so detailed. We read about Columbus, we read about America, what happens, and the Gentiles coming over here, and just amazing things that he gets to see. All of this probably sparked by his father's experience, which is a big message here in the Book of Mormon. This is why Lehi's on his journey, is because he listened. He was sparked by those prophets that came prophesying about Jerusalem, and that got him.
So you see, a lot of this revelation comes not in a vacuum, but revelation comes often because we're thinking about something, we're studying something, we hear something, we believe something. There needs to be some.
What's the right word, Tinder for the fire, some kindling, something to get that started. And the revelation is just adding to that. But it's almost our responsibility or somewhere along the lines, we need to hear and believe and act to where we start to receive that bonfire. And so if we're out there waiting for a bonfire to happen and feeling cold in the dark, maybe we need to do something to light that fire to get that rolling.
All right, so speaking of talking about his seed and all of this has really made Lehi realize, my sons need wives.
And so this is going to take him to commanding his sons to go back to get Ishmael. Ishmael's got a fairly large family. We see this because it says when they're coming on the way back, two of the sons of Ishmael and their families. I think that's important to note because we look at this as some of the sons of Ishmael perhaps married. Some of the daughters of Lehi, as of yet, have not been mentioned. As far as we know, Lehi doesn't have daughters yet. They could have been born in the wilderness.
But these sons come already married. And in fact, Ishmael is going to die before Lehi. So he's probably older in age. His sons have already gotten married and have families. So it shows again that they're older in age.
And he also has daughters. But if you have two of the sons that are rebelling and one of the son actually takes Lehi's side, so then you have at least three sons in that instance.
And then Nephi is going to say that his brothers marry the daughters of Ishmael. There's three of his older brothers, and then he marries, so that's going to be four. And then he says, oh, by the way, and Zoram marries the eldest daughter of Ishmael. That's five.
So at least three sons. At least five daughters. You're talking about eight kids, plus the parents, a family of ten. It's a pretty good sized family that Lehigh is sending his sons back to go and get a large family with eligible women around the ages of his sons. That's going to work. That's going to bring a little bit of diversity so that his seed can perhaps prosper and do well when they get here.
[00:08:19] Speaker B: And it's also probably just to keep his sons stoked.
[00:08:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:24] Speaker B: If everybody's kind of like. I'm just saying that's probably another important thing, too, if we're all headed out into the wilderness.
[00:08:31] Speaker A: Not a lot of murmuring about going back.
[00:08:35] Speaker B: That one didn't stir the ire of layman and Lemuel, like other asks, did.
[00:08:42] Speaker A: No, it didn't.
Maybe we can sum up some of this journey, right? Going back there and getting the family. There's a rebellion that happens, and his brothers seek to take away his life, which is something that they've sought to do for their dad before.
[00:09:01] Speaker B: They seek to take away his life.
[00:09:03] Speaker C: I mean, that's the important part of this, right? Is that they say, we want to go back to Jerusalem, and.
[00:09:10] Speaker A: Mean they have this rebellion.
And I think it's important that it says here, if you have choice, go back to Jerusalem. And the reason why I think that's important, I don't think Layman and Lemuel do a lot of acting on their own. They're convicted. They're not doing this because they feel like they're being forced out there because this is what their dad's doing. They feel like they want to go back because that's maybe the.
[00:09:41] Speaker C: Well, they're not the only ones. A couple of the Ishmael daughters want to go back, and even some of the Ishmael's sons, right?
[00:09:47] Speaker A: Yeah. And what's the opposite of the holy ghost? I mean, to feel maybe that the temptations, when you lose your agency because you're making poor choices. I don't think that they even have agency in this. It's just this rebellion that they're following simply to rebel. I don't think they have a lot of choice. And maybe that's where a lot of this angst comes from, and you'll see swings in them. You'll see them from one extreme of wanting to kill their brother to the next, where they're worshipping the guy.
And maybe that's because they don't feel like they have the freedom to do because they're not vested. They don't have that testimony that Nephi has, they're going along with either their emotions at the moment or they're going along with what their dad's asking them to do, but they don't have that conviction for themselves. Does that make sense?
[00:10:34] Speaker C: Yeah. One of the points I would just want to make, too, is we still got to remember these guys are probably late teenagers, early twenty s, right?
[00:10:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:10:41] Speaker C: And we all know how this is where 1 minute you want to beat the tar out of your sibling.
[00:10:48] Speaker B: I see this in my kids already.
[00:10:50] Speaker C: They're just fighting and they're just wanting whatever, and then the next minute they're, I'm so sorry.
[00:10:54] Speaker B: I love you.
[00:10:54] Speaker C: You're my best think. I think some of the swing that we're seeing right now can be attributed to age and kind of the emotional swings. And by the way, they just got back from Jerusalem again, picking up a family and bringing them with, like, they probably got to once again see how much easier it is back in the city, back with their stuff, even though their stuff's been stolen at this point. But needless to say, they just got reminded of how much nicer living in a city is probably than living in the wilderness. So still at this point, I'm still kind of giving them a little bit.
[00:11:30] Speaker B: Of the benefit of the doubt of.
[00:11:31] Speaker C: Just like, yeah, they're young and like you said, they're not convicted at all, right? But the swings of their, we want.
[00:11:40] Speaker B: To kill our brother.
[00:11:41] Speaker C: We want to worship our brother.
The wideness of that swing narrows quite a bit.
[00:11:46] Speaker B: I feel like the older they get.
[00:11:48] Speaker C: And kind of the more we go on.
[00:11:50] Speaker A: It's interesting that this journey, right, it's saying three days into the wilderness, but they have to come down to the borders near the shore of the Red Sea before they even begin their journey into the wilderness. Right. Three days from that point, we're talking about maybe at least a solid week of travel, and this will be the fifth time they make that journey. And they're looking at this, they know what's waiting for them on the other end, and they know they've got another six days of maybe I'm tapping out right here. Stay in Jerusalem.
[00:12:22] Speaker C: I get it. And they do feel a little bit.
[00:12:24] Speaker B: Of the peer pressure.
[00:12:25] Speaker C: Sure. You know, from the other children of Ishmael that are going, you know, the band's loose on Nephi. Nephi's like, I read this as Nephi. Even you brought up the point, like, if you have a choice, I kind of read it as Nephi, almost being like, we're so sick of hearing you dudes complain.
[00:12:44] Speaker B: You do have a choice.
[00:12:45] Speaker C: If you really want to go back, here's what's going to happen to you. We've told you what's going to happen to you. We're all sick of hearing you whine about this.
[00:12:53] Speaker B: Just leave.
[00:12:54] Speaker C: Go back when you're getting destroyed. Remember my face right now? It reads kind of that way from an arrogant younger brother.
[00:13:01] Speaker B: Right?
[00:13:02] Speaker C: And that's what probably inspires the. Okay, we're actually going to tie him up and let the animals take care of him.
[00:13:09] Speaker A: It doesn't say in the New Testament, tossed around by every doctrine like the wind. And I think you see the impact of peer pressure kind of doing the similar thing right here. I think they're enabled by Ishmael's family. When they've got support from brothers and other people that are upset with Nephi, it almost feeds into what they're doing. And then all of a sudden, when the tide starts turning and some of the family is saying, whoa, don't do this, and maybe some of the crowd that was supporting you starts to be quiet, you lose some of that momentum.
[00:13:39] Speaker C: It is just nice, too, because again, you see a lot of actual human characteristics in here with the brothers being like, totally fine, complaining like, well, you're the one dragging me out here. Well, you're the one dragging me out here. Why can't we just go back? Well, you're the one dragging me out here. And then when it turns into like, fine, just go back. No, we're done. Stop complaining about it. Either go back or this is what we're doing. Then it's like, oh, you're going to.
[00:14:03] Speaker B: Talk to us like that?
[00:14:05] Speaker A: We're tying you up super mad.
That's when it boils over, right? And they're mad enough that they're going to kill him. And I think it's one last point. I know we need to move on. One last point on this. I think it's significant when they're plotting to take away his life, they don't feel justified in actually killing him. And you get some parallels with this between Nephi and Joseph and that they view him as a righteous man in the sense that they know they would be shedding innocent blood.
[00:14:31] Speaker B: Joseph in Egypt.
[00:14:32] Speaker A: Joseph in Egypt. Thank you. Thank you. Because in Joseph in Egypt, let's say that the wild animals killed him, or let's leave him in a pit, let's sell him to the trade. Let's do it. So it's not us that are actually carrying this out. Same thing here. Laman Lemuel, let's tie him and let the wilderness take him. Let the animals in the wilderness kill. Then it's on them, and we're innocent. If they had viewed what Nephi did in slaying Laban just barely on their last trip, maybe they would have felt justified, and they wouldn't feel like they'd have to. I think this testifies or speaks to the fact that they still viewed Nephi as innocent, as not worthy of death. Even though they wanted to kill him, they had to try to be sneaky about finding a way to do this that felt justifiable.
[00:15:20] Speaker C: Let's move on.
[00:15:21] Speaker A: Turning the page. They get back, and Nephi is at no shortage to say that.
He's going to say this over and over and over again. And it came to pass that we did come down unto the tent of my father, and he's going to keep making a big deal out of that. Everything about his father dwelling in a tent and significant events happening at the tent of his father and the tent being the center of his life. Nephi is. I mean, he built a chiasmus earlier to talk about this, and now he's showing us that it's not just the center in his writing, but it's the center of his life. It's the center of what they're doing. This is a big deal for him.
And I think we also see a progression here in Lehi and his family. Early on, God tells them, I need you to depart into the wilderness, take your family and leave. And I don't think Lehi is sitting there and thinking through this and saying, what do I necessarily need to be successful?
Am I covering them all my bases? I think for him, it's more important to just listen to what God does or what God's saying. I'm going to take what I need absolutely right now to survive, grab my family, and I'm just going to go. And then God says, well, wait a second. What about this? Okay, now I need to go back and get that. And you come back and you start reading that. What about this? Oh, okay, now I need to go back and get that. And it's almost like he's learning his lesson at this point where God is not. I think the lesson that Lehi's learning and the lesson that his family is learning is that God is not going to give us a commandment in every single thing. He's going to give us a direction and what he wants us to do. And he expects us to counsel with him and find out what is it that we need to do to be successful in keeping this commandment. And Lehi's maybe know in hindsight, had we thought about this, maybe it would have saved us some time. And by the way, maybe it's even worth mentioning.
They talk about three days travel in the wilderness. But the wilderness doesn't even start until they get down to the borders near the shore of the Red Sea. You're talking about a couple of days travel to get to the borders near the shore of the Red Sea. A couple days travel to get out to where they're pitched in the tent. You're, I don't know, five, six days at a minimum, away from Jerusalem to make that travel. Going back another six days. However long it takes to negotiate, to figure out the details. Another six days. And then to make that travel go back. You're talking about Lehigh and Saria sitting there for maybe 18 days, 20 days, almost a month from each one of these journeys. And you're talking about there's kids, these young, unmarried kids making these long journeys a month at a time without their parents.
[00:18:05] Speaker B: Okay, but let me ask you this. Do you think that they were then wrong in not figuring out all of the logistics before obeying?
[00:18:16] Speaker A: I don't think so.
[00:18:18] Speaker B: I agree, by the way.
[00:18:20] Speaker A: I think it was a big learning experience.
[00:18:23] Speaker C: It feels like that.
[00:18:24] Speaker B: That's probably part of the experience too, though, right?
[00:18:26] Speaker A: Part of their development.
[00:18:27] Speaker B: What if the commandment was get out of town, period?
And Lehi being willing to go without questioning? And by the way, exactly without knowing.
What if the initial proving of Lehigh's commitment to this was get out of town without knowing how you're going to be doing all of these things. Right. When we've talked about this in the past, I feel like we've assumed that Lehigh, in his rush out, just didn't think of a lot of this stuff. And then was like, oh, we should.
[00:19:07] Speaker C: Go back and get the plates. Oh, man.
[00:19:08] Speaker B: I guess we need some wives for our boys. We've kind of read it or talked about it. Almost as in Lehigh's hurry to do this the right way. He kind of didn't think through a lot of these things. What we haven't considered, though, is that maybe Lehi really did think through a lot of those things, too, but was so more concerned with. I want to make sure that I'm showing obedience and faith first. Faith and obedience as the fundamental block of what the entire, by the way, temple life, scripture. You know what I mean? Fabric of heaven is built on, right? Faith and obeying the things that you're supposed to be doing. What if this was just the initial step of Lehi showing God? I'm going to do what you ask me to do, and then I'll figure out these things later.
[00:20:03] Speaker C: With your help, I'll trust that you.
[00:20:05] Speaker A: Will point out what I need and that I won't be lacking anything or.
[00:20:08] Speaker B: Even these things that I do know that I need. I mean, we read the scripture, right?
If God asks you to do something, we'll walk in faith not knowing. Not knowing how these things. That's last week that we read that scripture, right. And so I'm going to even give Lehi some credit as being also a very savvy dude, as being a very smart businessman.
I'm going to give Lehi maybe the benefit of the doubt of saying he probably did think through a lot of these things initially, but was so committed to, I'm going to show God how committed I am to him first and then not knowing how some of these issues will be resolved.
And by the way, if some of the issues being resolved accounts for a couple of extra weeks of travel for my boys, it's probably a good learning experience for them, too. It's probably a good trial of their faith, too. It's probably a good chance to toughen them up a little bit, too, because the journey we have ahead of us is not going to be easy. I'm just saying there's a lot of potential amazing reasons that the order of these events happened the way that they know.
[00:21:19] Speaker A: And it'd be interesting to know what Lehigh knew, right? Because so far all we're getting is one word descriptions on Lehigh's visions from a third person. Yes. Did he know where they were going or how long it was going to take to be there?
If he's just going to go settle in another area, maybe potentially even end up in Egypt, there's going to be wives there. There's going to be opportunities there. How much did the Lord include him as part of this council, as part of this decision making process? Or how much did the Lord just say, I need you to go. But I do like kind of pointing the contrast between Lehi's experience and the brother of Jared's experience, because the Lord's telling the brother of Jared he's going to be crossing the ocean in these boats.
And Jared, instead of just jumping in the boat and going, is thinking, wait a second, how am I going to get air? How are we going to breathe? How are we going to get light? How is this going to work, what do I need to do? And he comes back to God and God says, what do you want me to do about it?
And I think the Lord's expecting. He's saying, I will give you a direction, but I'm giving you also agency to try to work through, come up with your own solutions and find ways to be successful in how you do it.
[00:22:37] Speaker B: Those two environments are fairly different, though, at the time, right? Yes, because you also have impending destruction of Jerusalem with Lehi. And I feel like the commandment was probably smart or wise, logistically, functionally, like, pack up and get out and we'll figure this out. Once you get out of town, where at least with the brother of Jared, it feels like there was a little bit more time to go. Here's what's going to have to happen now. I'm going to let you think through and resolve how to make some of the. I guess I'm just saying like, I'm completely with you. And I think it's a great way to parallel because I feel like in life we're presented multiple situations. Like both. Some of them might be, hey, stop doing this or get up and get out of town or whatever that might be. And a lot of them are very much like, here is the problem. I'm going to leave you to figuring.
[00:23:35] Speaker C: Out the solution well, and to go.
[00:23:37] Speaker A: With what you're saying.
Lot and his wife, yeah, get out of town and don't even look back. And the act of turning and dwelling on it does not get you enough distance away to be safe from whatever happens that you get caught up in it. And if you're sitting there saying, well, what about my sons and my daughters? And what about. And how about, and what should we take? And what should we not take? And what should we do? And when the instruction is leave. Now, to your point, there are times when God just says, do this and it's going to be beneficial to us to not sit there and try to counsel and decide.
[00:24:21] Speaker B: In fact, I'm sure there is even more nuance to this part of the discussion, too, which is, if we're honest with ourselves, maybe some of the lingering that we would want to do. You brought up lots, wife. And that actually kind of spurred an idea, too, which is I'm sure Lehigh would have loved to have stayed in their nice house and worked out the logistics while living comfortably in like a posh situation with plenty of food, money, sleeping in their own beds and not having a family complaining at them the whole time that it might have actually been very maybe too comfortable if Lehi didn't feel the urgency to go.
[00:25:05] Speaker A: Cool.
[00:25:06] Speaker B: Yeah, we'll go out into the wilderness. But if I have to figure all of this stuff out anyways, I might as well just figure it out here and you know what I mean, work out all the logistics here.
I'm just going to say the human side of me could go. I could see how that could have taken a lot longer than figuring that out later when you're not in a comfortable situation.
And it just makes me then relate it to, again, the nuance of that to our lives. Right. The brother Jared. Again, that story. I'm glad that you're comparing it to lot leaving. Right.
As we can see, lot had family that I'm sure would have loved to have lingered for as long as, in fact did. Right. He had family lingering for as absolutely long as possible with the brother Jared.
It's not like that. He's trying to go, man, how much longer can I stick around? He's very much just going, hey, man, how are we going to be able to survive doing this?
He's not necessarily as far as we.
[00:26:14] Speaker A: Understand, or even trying to question or put off doing what the Lord asked.
[00:26:17] Speaker B: That's what it is. Put it off. Put it off. But with the excuse of, oh, I'm.
[00:26:24] Speaker C: Just working out the logistics.
[00:26:25] Speaker B: No, I'll do that. I'll eventually repent. I'll eventually get it right. But I'm kind of working out the logistics of how to do it first. So that's even maybe just a deeper kind of nuance as we relate this to our own lives. I don't know, something to think about.
[00:26:42] Speaker A: Yeah. The scripture that came to my mind as I was thinking about this was doctrine, covenants. When the Lord says, it's not meat that I command you in everything, but he also says that I expect you to be anxiously engaged in a good work. And there are expectations that at times he's giving us instructions and he expects us to follow, and at times he's giving us a direction and he expects us to be part of the team and kind of coming up to a solution. And I think you see both of that with Lehi. You see him dropping everything and going because the Lord asked him to go, and that is the most important thing for him. And now all of a sudden, he's got his kids together and they're counseling together and saying, what do we need to be successful in keeping God's commandments? We need seeds of every kind, and that's what happens here. And it came to pass that they gathered together all manner of seeds of every kind, both of grain of every kind, and also of seeds of fruit of every kind.
And it came to pass that while my father tarried in the wilderness, he spake unto us, saying, behold, I have dreamed a dream. Or in other words, I have seen a vision.
And just a little side note on this. I don't think a boy in early 18 hundreds, America is going to be saying, dreamed a dream or see a vision. That's just not how we talk.
But in Hebrew, that's 100% it. You go back, and I will bless you with a blessing, or I will curse you with a curse. That's how they talk. That's how it fits in the Hebrew. So I think it shows.
It's just a small example, but it's all throughout.
[00:28:16] Speaker B: It's a small example if it's by itself. But one of our whole themes is as you start putting the pieces together, as you start adding up all of the small pieces, that independently, by themselves, might not seem much, it paints a much bigger picture of the depth of what this thing is.
[00:28:33] Speaker A: And I love the progression of inspiration. Right? Because first it all started with, I mean, if we go all the way back, it starts with the prophets that inspire him to go and pray, and then he starts prophesying, and then he's asked to leave. He goes to get the plates and the plates. He reads about his ancestors and his forefathers and how important that is, which inspires him to think about, I'm an ancestor on my children's line, and what's that going to be like? And what's the future of my kids? And he starts prophesying about his seed. Oh, you better go back to Jerusalem and get your family talking about seed and posterity and offspring.
The food that we live, how is that going to reproduce? How are we going to be able to sustain ourselves? We better grab seed for this. And now he's going to have a dream about what, a tree and fruit and seed and family and all of these things that are merged together.
And like I said, inspiration is not coming in a vacuum. And I don't think it's coincidence and something we were talking about before the show. Nate, maybe the thoughts, the pondering, the praying is training our mind to see what's around us.
[00:29:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
What we were talking about, again, I think it's at least worth mentioning. I was watching a video of kind of like a legendary music, like a mix engineer, and he is somebody that I, again, from a career standpoint the dude has had a massive impact on music and me, what I'm trying to do. But it was interesting that, as somebody that's speaking from a very non religious standpoint, talked a lot about how he would use his time outside of the studio to really ask questions and then just let them linger in his mind. And I'm like, oh, yeah, it's like the search, ponder, pray thing. I'm all about this. But he brought up a point that made me think of something really kind of profound, which is his whole thing is he would really think through a lot of these problems, and then he would just kind of let it sit in his mind so that when he went back to work, he would just be more aware when the answers just naturally kind of revealed themselves.
And his whole proposition was, the answers are already there. It's, are you asking, one, the right questions? And two, is it something that you give and dedicate enough of your mental time to that when the answers are there? Because they'll be there either way, you're ready to receive them. And it made me start thinking, and this is kind of how it got on this topic is when we pray or when we ponder ideas or ask questions. I feel like a lot of it's with the expectation that the Lord is then going to after that provide an answer.
And it was at least an interesting thought process after listening to this lecture that God's putting the answers out there to all of these questions, regardless of even if we ask or not. But it's really us that isn't. We're not doing the work beforehand to recognize the fact that we are actually receiving incredible information and inspiration because of where our thoughts are elsewhere.
And it's interesting, too, then, how it goes back to even what we've talking about here, about Nephi keeping a record of the things, and Lehi wanting to keep a record because a lot of his statements on this two word that hit me were, hey, keep track of know. Write down the things that you're learning. Keep track of that stuff. Because even if you're learning something, these might not be answers to questions now, but you never know what questions might come up in the future that you'll have been like, oh, yeah, luckily I was being observant and paying attention and listening to the spirit. Hopefully that even when these futures come up down the road, I've already kind of received a lot of these answers and can go back and look through a lot of my own record keeping know documenting of these things. Does that make.
[00:32:51] Speaker A: Does it does. And I like that Nephi is getting this inspiration to keep records after he sees the value, maybe, of the plates, like you pointed out last week, of having to slay Laban and get this, how important it was for them and their family to have this record.
It's in context. Right? He's now receiving his inspiration, his instructions to do this, but not in a vacuum, in context of the experience he had with Laban. Nephi is having his dream of a tree and the fruit and the seeds and family in context of commanding his children to go out and get wives and gathering seeds together and thinking about planting seeds and the life and the fruit and sustaining life. It's the context that really fuels it. And oftentimes it's all around us, but we don't train our brains to see it or to have that answer. Yeah.
[00:33:48] Speaker B: And it just begs the question, like, is God actually putting the answers out to our questions, whether or not we even know that we have questions, or whether or not we're even giving ourselves the chance to ask or to seek and ponder. Right. To search and ponder. And it's an interesting, at least thought exercise to think that the answers are already there.
And again, going back to this mix engineer, his whole thing is the answers are even in your mind, too, which, of course, just is like, oh, it's remembering. That's where remembering comes back into it, is that the answers are already there and that really what God's doing is just reminding us or helping us remember or unlocking, like, the more thought process we put into something and the more that we focus our quiet thoughts on good things, is it more, instead of God saying, like, cool, here's a revelation. More just God going, like, here's a lifting of the veil. Remember that. Remember this.
And it's awesome and scary sometimes to think that we might be missing answers in our day to day around. It's just because we're not focused.
[00:35:07] Speaker A: I can't count how many times I've been reading the scriptures. And what I've been reading is so in line with the question that I had or inspiration that I'm seeking as I read it. And maybe I wouldn't have even missed it, or I wouldn't have caught it if my mind hadn't been thinking about that, if it hadn't been bothering me. And now I'm thinking about it, and I happen upon that story at the same time, and it speaks to me differently, or it teaches me something I would have otherwise missed. I love it.
All right, let's talk about Lehi's. Dream, because after he's gathering this together, this is a big deal. And it's also a big deal that this is happening as they tarry in the wilderness in the tent. And Nephi, again, is going to make a big deal out of this.
And Lehi's vision is going to be about the tree of life. The tree of Life is encapsulated in the temple with the menorah, a piece of furniture that's happening inside of the temple. So go back again to this tent being a temple. It's fitting that in here, you have this dream about this tree. It's the right place. It's the right setting.
But before we get to the tree, Lehi expresses a little bit of concern for Leman and Lemiel because they didn't come and partake of the fruit. But he rejoices over Sam, Nephi, and Saria.
But to start off the dream, verse five. And it came to pass well, even before end of verse four, I saw in a dream a dark and dreary wilderness. And it came to pass that I saw a man, and he was dressed in a white robe. And he came and stood before me. And it came to pass that he spake unto me and bade me follow him. And it came to pass that as I followed him, I beheld myself. I was in a dark and dreary waste.
And after I had traveled for the space of many hours in darkness, I began to pray unto the lord that he would have mercy on me according to the multitude of his tender mercies.
I think so often this part of the dream gets overshadowed by the tree later on, and the tree is powerful, and it's wonderful. But I just want to take a second, because I think there's a lot of people that can relate to this.
When a man, a messenger, an angel, call him what you will, is standing before you all dressed in white, and asks you to follow him, and you follow him, and you find yourself in a dark and dreary waste. I think a lot of people say, what did I do? I did everything I was asked to. How come? This is where I met?
And I think part of the greatest consternation of this, the greatest anxiety, is that he ended up in this place after trusting someone he should have been able to trust.
I think that's where the fear comes in. I did what God asked. How come I'm here?
And I think there might be a lot of people in the church who look at this. Following a man dressed in white as similar to I was baptized. I go to church. I take the sacrament. I read my scriptures. I go to the temple. I try to do all of these good things.
Yet the heavens seem to be closed. I'm not hearing the Lord. I'm not hearing his voice.
I feel like I'm being left in a dark and dreary place.
Is the church right? Is the church true? How come I'm not getting this inspiration? And if I'm doing all the good things, shouldn't I be getting that answer? Shouldn't the heavens be open and this emotional feeling be coming over me? How is it that following this man in white has left me in despair?
I think that's a real thing that a lot of people go through.
And I dare say not even just a lot, but I think it's an important part of all of our progress.
Because wasn't Abraham following the Lord when the Lord asked him to sacrifice his son? Was that not a gut wrenching. Wait a second. I was following this man dressed in white, and now it's leading me to a dark place.
Wasn't job offering sacrifices for him, for his son and doing everything the Lord asked him to, when all of a sudden, all of that was taken out from underneath him. And his wife was saying, maybe you should curse God and die.
What about Jacob, who was wrestling with the Lord? And the Lord was asking him to let go when he knew he needed to hold on to get that blessing.
And then Christ himself. Father, why hast thou forsaken me?
I think it's important that we go through this wilderness.
I think that following the Lord is going to, at times, isolate us from everyone, from our friends, from our parents, to a moment where the Lord is going to see are we able to hang on.
And Lehigh doesn't say that this moment just passes here in a second, after many hours.
And I feel like there's a lot of people out there who might be in that place, in that darkness.
And you know what? It's not always helpful when you're looking for some companionship or a friend. How helpful were job's friends when they came and just told him, it's because you're screwing it up. Just repent. Just be a little bit better. Just pray a little bit harder. Just be a little bit more righteous, and everything's going to work out. Sometimes you're not doing anything wrong to find. In fact, it's because you're not doing anything wrong that you find yourself in that position of love and trust.
And we just need to find a way to hang on a little bit longer.
Blessed are those who trust in the Lord. Blessed are those who overcome. Blessed are those who wait on the Lord.
And don't stop crying. Don't stop praying.
I can't answer why the Lord's not answering you right now. I can't tell you why the heavens seem to be closed. I can't tell you why you feel like you're being overcome with darkness, anxiety, depression, whatever the case may be. But maybe the best help I can offer is don't stop praying.
Don't stop waiting. The light will come.
And I can say that because Christ saw the light, Abraham saw the light. Jacob saw the light. Lehi sees the light.
We're going to get to that point if you just hold on a little bit longer.
And maybe, master, carest thou not that we perish?
I think even the apostles are going through the exact same moment. I think we all ask ourselves that question. It's common, and it's cool to see Lehi, a man who has shown us to be close to the spirit, who received instruction about how this was going to happen, who prophesied to the people. He received the instruction to go to the wilderness. He receives inspiration on sending his sons to get the plates, receives inspiration on sending them to the wilderness. And yet he himself, who is no stranger to the word of God and communication following God leads to darkness and confusion, even for a man as acquainted with the heavens as he was.
[00:42:53] Speaker B: Think of how bright that light from the tree must have looked when he came out of that darkness, though.
I mean, the contrast of that must have really helped to hammer home the point of what that tree represents and what he was supposed to be learning from that whole situation.
[00:43:10] Speaker A: And think about how eager he was for his family to participate in this tree and how eager he was to save the multitudes, knowing that he had been through the same thing that they were going through. When he sees them go through the mist of darkness, he knows what that feeling is like. And he is so eager for them to hold to that iron rod because he knew what it was like when he was there, too.
[00:43:34] Speaker B: Exactly right.
I think that the wisdom of God in these things can be very frustrating for us to try to understand. But when we see the pattern of it over and over and over and over, then you realize clearly this is for a purpose.
Even if it's a purpose we don't understand in the moment. But I will say that, and I appreciate the way you laid it out and just want to add my. It's worth hanging on. It's worth hanging on. And there are times that I feel like each of us, me personally, I guess, is all I can speak for, for certain. But for me, you do have to just truly hold on sometimes for dear life and hope that there will be something on the other side of it. And there is for me. And I'm happy to say that I have been blessed with struggles and have been blessed with questions.
And I see it in a lot of the relationships around me.
And I'm always inspired by the people that I can say, man, they're going through it a lot worse than I ever had, and that's inspiring that they're hanging on. And hopefully I can be a support to them because of how incredible of a support they are to me when I'm needing the backup.
[00:45:18] Speaker A: I think you teach me a valuable lesson how you've been pushing.
Always remember him in the sacrament. Always remember him. Always remember him.
And I think we find comfort in these verses when we're going through our own by remembering not just him, but remembering what he did for Lehi, remembering what he did for Abraham, what he did for remembering not just him, but his interaction with others like us helps give us maybe a little bit of strength to hang in there. And something that you mentioned earlier, Nate, the importance of writing some of these experiences down. Maybe you don't have to sit there and remember what he did for all of these people that aren't you. Maybe sometimes you just remember what he did for you in the past.
[00:46:02] Speaker B: Amen, brother.
I have this app that I don't even remember the name of it, but I spent way too much money on it because it reminds me each day, like, take a minute and reflect on what you learned from today and write it down.
It's been so enlightening and incredible, and I think it's just such good. This is like spiritual, but also non spiritual stuff. There's something so healthy about at the end of each day, remembering even that day. What did I learn today?
What changed in me today? What is something that I can apply going forward, right? And then when you realize that really is what Nephi said, that the Book of Mormon was going to be, not the book of Mormon, he didn't know.
[00:46:53] Speaker C: What the book of Mormon, but these.
[00:46:54] Speaker B: Scriptures, the writings that he was doing was specifically for what God's mercies, God's blessings.
I want to keep a record of the little things. And this book that we have in.
[00:47:12] Speaker C: Front of us, kind of like we.
[00:47:13] Speaker B: Were talking about earlier, is a collection of things that in and of themselves might not be significant, but when you.
[00:47:21] Speaker C: Put them all together, it really paints such a bigger picture.
[00:47:25] Speaker B: And I have been blown away by how much I'm learning from just the mundane things, otherwise mundane things in my day to day, by taking five minutes, pulling out my phone before I go to bed and just typing in.
[00:47:45] Speaker C: I mean, dude, it can be dumb.
[00:47:47] Speaker B: Information sometimes, but even that, it just makes your brain aware, right?
And the habit of recognizing the little moments to learn each day has been like. It's been unbelievably uplifting for me. It's been awesome.
[00:48:08] Speaker A: I'm a big believer in that as well. I try to write down, you've always.
[00:48:12] Speaker B: Been a lot better about that since I've known you. At least I don't do good with pulling out a piece of paper and a pen and keeping it all in one place. The digital thing really helped kind of unlock that thing for me.
[00:48:23] Speaker A: Well, unfortunately, all mine are in paper books that are not going to last forever. It's not categorized. You can't search it. At some point, I'm going to have.
[00:48:31] Speaker B: To digitize it, just take pictures of it or something.
[00:48:35] Speaker A: One day when I've got AI will.
[00:48:37] Speaker B: Be able to do this, dude, soon enough.
[00:48:39] Speaker A: Soon enough.
I like that. Something else that I really like about this vision is that not everybody's path to the tree is the same.
I think we focus a lot on the iron rod, but I think there's a significance here. Think about Lehi's path. Maybe this man in white that shows up to him are these prophets that are coming to Jerusalem and testifying of their wickedness and abominations. And then Lehi is asked to leave all of that behind. Where is the church for him? Where are his scriptures? Where is his structure? Where is his form? Where is his nothing? He has to rely on just the voice of God. And so he prays, and God is the one that gets him to the tree. It's a very different path. He doesn't have an iron rod or a path to follow. He is relying on the Lord because the Jews and the church, Israel at that time, had let him down.
And then you look at his family, he sees at the head of the fountain, how do they get to the tree? They get to the tree by listening to Lehi. They have Lehi who's giving them directions, telling them to come into the wilderness, telling them to go back to get the plates, telling them to go and get wives, telling them to they have their father instead of this iron rod, instead of this path. They have their father. And they get that. And now they're looking down the road into their seed, their posterity, and future generations. In future generations. You're going to have the Bible. You're going to have the book of Mormon. You're going to have the word of God. You're going to have prophets. You're going to have apostles. You're going to have a church. You're going to have a path. You're going to have a very defined way that you need to go to get to that tree. It's different from how Nephi gets there. It's different from how Lehi gets there, because the times are different, because the setting is different, because they have different tools to be able to get there. But what's the same for all of them is this mist of darkness that appears after they start making their way. Whether it's Lehi who starts to have, maybe even the darkness can be his wife calling him a visionary man, his children saying, we know that you're foolish, and maybe some self doubt, and saying, did I really just leave everything on a whim? Maybe that's the darkness for him. We can think about what might be the darkness for us, but we're all going to encounter second doubts or second questions or doubts or wondering. And it's not that it happens to obscure the way to the path. Oftentimes, it's after they grab the rod and they start walking. That's when the mist of darkness appear. That's when the trial happens to try to shake you from where you're going.
[00:51:22] Speaker C: Let me throw this out there, because.
[00:51:24] Speaker B: You just inspired a thought in me, too, with what Lehi had to go through and then the payoff of him.
[00:51:34] Speaker C: Then seeing what the tree was and understanding it was, do you think that.
[00:51:38] Speaker B: The people in the tower could have done anything that would have shaken him off of that path at that point?
[00:51:45] Speaker C: No, I agree.
It is interesting, though, who does get.
[00:51:49] Speaker B: Shaken off the path even when they are brought to the tree, right. Layman and Lemuel, they didn't have to.
[00:51:55] Speaker C: Go through that same darkness that their dad did in the dream, at least right. In the vision.
[00:52:01] Speaker A: Right.
[00:52:04] Speaker C: And by the time they got to basically the end and could have done this the right way. And it talks about even people who even at times had partaken of the fruit and still were swayed.
[00:52:18] Speaker B: Right.
[00:52:19] Speaker C: It makes me think, should we make sure that we're not looking at the trials that we have in our life as a bad thing? And I know we've kind of talked.
[00:52:30] Speaker B: About this over the years. But this is just another chance to say.
[00:52:36] Speaker C: These things can be very merciful at times.
[00:52:39] Speaker B: To have the.
[00:52:41] Speaker A: They're part of the doubt might be the greatest blessing.
[00:52:44] Speaker B: That's my point, is that.
[00:52:48] Speaker C: When you.
[00:52:48] Speaker B: See people who have had to really.
[00:52:50] Speaker C: Go through, I mean, we all have friends, we have people in our wards, in our circles, and it might be.
[00:52:57] Speaker B: Us that have really had to go.
[00:53:00] Speaker C: Through the depths of hell to make their way back, including sometimes being very antagonistic towards not even just the church, but just religion in general that they've really had to go through and really kind of hit rock bottom to then pray and be lifted back out of it. I feel like those people are anchors, though, right?
[00:53:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:53:26] Speaker C: I feel like the people that come out of that, their path, when they landed back on the path, it's like they're not moving. They're immovable at that point because of what it took to get there, and it then makes me scared to go, oh, no. What about then, those of us that maybe don't feel like we had to get there that hard?
But neither did Nephi or Sam, in theory.
[00:53:56] Speaker B: Right.
[00:53:56] Speaker C: If we're using this.
And so. But it is interesting that layman and lemuel didn't have to go through the depths of hell in this vision that.
[00:54:07] Speaker B: Their dad did, to be basically saved.
[00:54:10] Speaker C: Have to pray to be saved from this, and therefore maybe didn't get the opportunity to just be anchored like their dad was in this vision, and therefore were a lot easier to kind of pick off or pull off towards the end of their journey.
I guess then the harder question is, like, well, then I have an answer to this question, but I never know if it's controversial or not.
[00:54:38] Speaker B: But.
[00:54:42] Speaker C: And we've talked about this before, I.
[00:54:44] Speaker B: Worry about the youth of this church.
[00:54:45] Speaker C: Tremendously, and a lot of the.
Luckily, with my calling, but even when it wasn't my calling, it's been something.
[00:54:56] Speaker B: Where just the youth of the world.
[00:54:59] Speaker C: I'm not even going to say our church, the youth of the world, concerns me, because all information, all the time. Fingertip.
[00:55:12] Speaker B: Right.
[00:55:12] Speaker A: Not having to wait for it or work for.
[00:55:14] Speaker C: We don't wait.
Yeah.
It's my favorite arcade fire song. We used to wait because there was something in waiting. And my favorite line of that song is, sometimes it never came.
[00:55:26] Speaker B: We also just had to get used.
[00:55:27] Speaker C: To the fact that sometimes it didn't come.
[00:55:30] Speaker B: Right.
[00:55:30] Speaker C: Sometimes we didn't get what we wanted. And now we live in such incredible, prosperous times that you expect all things in the most convenient of ways all the time and rereading this story now with that kind of thought and light is terrifying, but makes me even more committed to, at least in my sphere of influence, do what I can to expect harder things of myself and of my children and of the calling, luckily, that I have at the time with the youth I luckily got to teach for years at a high school.
[00:56:16] Speaker B: You have too, right?
[00:56:16] Speaker C: A charter school maybe, especially when it comes to the youth of this church.
If we can, in any way, we can do what we can to just expect harder things and expect non convenient things and do what we can to teach a level of spiritual work ethic, right.
And do what we can to hopefully, hopefully challenge more and ask harder things.
I get the blessings that we have sending missionaries out with cell phones, but still, every time I see it, I just go like, what are we doing again? I know that this is a thing where this isn't a get off my lawn moment, but I get nervous when it's like, cool. We want them to maintain social media accounts and we want them calling home every week and stuff like that. I'm like, I get it. But I get it on some level. But what are we doing?
Part of what going on a mission used to be like is we're going to make this hard for you and you're going to have to come out a stronger person on the other side. And by the way, I do still think that our missionaries are coming out stronger on this side in different ways. Don't misunderstand, right. For anybody listening, don't misunderstand what I'm saying. I do have a little bit of beef with this, but it's not nearly as serious as it might sound. But it's like, I understand why we have to do a lot of these things in this modern world, but I do get a little bit sad sometimes when I'm like, but dang it.
We're also unfortunately not giving these kids a chance to go out and just push through hard, hard times.
[00:58:11] Speaker A: Well, it's scary because we worry, is this hard thing going to cause them to fail?
[00:58:18] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:58:19] Speaker A: It terrifies us as parents.
[00:58:21] Speaker C: That's right. But I feel like our parents, the generation of our parents. I was telling my kids stories tonight of, like, me and my sisters at a pretty young age. We used to ride, like, the public transit around Logan, utah. You know what I mean? Or like, dude, I was telling my kids a story tonight about me and my buddy Ben. When we were young, we had a go kart that didn't have an engine on like, I was like seven or eight. We would push this thing up to the top of the hill, up at the top of our street, and we would cruise down on this thing and I ended up needing a huge thing on my leg because I tore a bunch of meat out of it rubbing up against some bridge. I mean, it was this whole thing. But the thing is, I feel like even from the youngest of age, we still kind of grew up in a generation of parents that are like, go out and freaking earn your scars, man.
Go out and learn from not having us there going, oh, wait, don't do that. Oh, wait, don't do that. Oh, wait. To do that. And then it terrifies me that as my one year old is just doing one year old things and climbing up on top of stuff, I'm like, ooh. Oh, no, wait.
I don't want her to fall. I don't want her to get hurt. Right? And I'm like, wait, how did that not.
What did I miss?
Right?
There's something that was so incredible. And by the way, it's why there are certain things, to your point. Yes, we go, if we expect hard things, is that going to make them fail? Is that going to put them in a position to fail? Yeah, it's going to put them in a position to fail, hopefully, because then it's going to be that much more awesome for them internally when they don't, when we let them rise to the occasion and knock it out of the park. Think of with the, with the chance that they could have failed, then it's amazing when they don't.
I say all of this to say, to relate this back spiritually.
[01:00:18] Speaker B: Right.
[01:00:21] Speaker C: I don't think that it's. I think that it's amazing to teach kids from the youngest of ages. I'm not just going to give you all of the answers.
And by the way, I'm going to have faith that even if you're struggling or if you're not receiving the same answer that I did when I was your age or thought I did or do now, I'm still going to trust the process enough to go, I want you to have to do some work to get there. I'm not just going to give you my answers. I'm going to teach and then expect great things from you spiritually as well. And by the way, I'm not even just saying this with our kids now. I'm speaking to me and you. I'm speaking to you, my friend, across the room, as a mirror of myself.
[01:01:09] Speaker B: Right.
[01:01:11] Speaker C: Which is when times get tough. Look at that. So much now, more as an opportunity to go step up to the plate. And, yeah, at times you might feel like you are just having to hang on for dear life, but hang on.
It's building in you something great.
[01:01:32] Speaker A: It's terrifying to tell your kids, don't trust me, figure it out for yourself. Because maybe what they figure out is not what you thought or what you.
[01:01:39] Speaker C: Were hoping, because that has to also.
[01:01:42] Speaker B: Be there, or else it's cheap, or.
[01:01:44] Speaker C: Else it's not really a choice.
[01:01:46] Speaker A: And I've always heard this, I've never actually hatched chickens, but the idea is that if you pull the eggshell off around the bird, it doesn't gain the strength it needs to be able to survive, and it's going to kill it. You have to let it struggle and push and work its way out if it's going to be strong enough to survive afterwards, to kind of encapsulate what you're saying.
[01:02:08] Speaker C: But the thing is, you would think that with how much freedom, really, and responsibility, like our parents generation let us have, you would think that we would just have all died.
[01:02:21] Speaker A: Some of them did.
[01:02:22] Speaker C: I mean, barely.
Not any different than now. Yeah, dude, my whole point is. My whole point is we would climb trees. We would stay out way past it till it was dark. We would hang out with our friends. We would ride the public transit around. We would drive go carts that didn't have engines into bridges. We were getting stitches. We were getting whatever. It's like, you would think that our whole generation would have just died off with the pampering and the overprotectiveness that we have with our kids, right? With the generation after us. You would think with how careful we are about every little thing with them, that looking back, you're like, how did we all not just die?
[01:03:08] Speaker A: You know what I mean? Well, even look at the saints crossing the plains, how did they not die? Being expected to cross over in the times, the weather. Some of them did, right? Some of them did. And we might look at it and say, well, now it's a lot easier. We don't. But yet you see the suicide rate as high as it is. You see a lot of people dropping off for maybe very different reasons or different causes. It's a different time that we live. But I think it's almost the same deal with just opposite extremes.
[01:03:39] Speaker C: So then my point is, then why not then trust the process, I guess, is then my point is that clearly, clearly, you and I, we didn't all just die, even though our parents gave us a lot of trust and a lot of freedom and expected a lot out of us.
The process works. And I think that this relates spiritually, like, one for one for me, and I know, at least for me, in the Sunday school class that I get to teach, which is, again, like the best calling ever, in my opinion, which is getting to teach the 1617 year old kids.
[01:04:21] Speaker B: Right. Right.
[01:04:22] Speaker C: As they're getting ready to leave to college.
It's really kind of one of the last chances that a Sunday school teacher, somebody not in their family, gets to really hopefully anchor or make an impression. And every lesson for us, I feel like, always ends with, and if you.
[01:04:41] Speaker B: Don'T figure out how to talk to.
[01:04:44] Speaker C: God and receive revelation for yourself, it's going to be so much harder to hang on.
No matter what we teach you, we're here today to inspire you and help you fill the spirit, to inspire you to go home and on your time, learn how to communicate with God.
And by the way, hope that you get some really incredible opportunities to put that faith to the test.
And hopefully we did our good enough job and that your parents did a good enough job and everybody did a good enough job of at least preparing you for the idea that it's like the trials will come.
It doesn't mean that it's wrong. It doesn't mean that it's right. It doesn't mean anything other than the trials will come. Now is an opportunity.
Now I feel like I've beat it to death, but it's something I'm clearly passionate about.
[01:05:37] Speaker A: Well, thank you for saying it. And I just wanted to point out it's interesting.
Lemon and Lemuel never actually come and partake of the fruit.
[01:05:45] Speaker B: That's right.
[01:05:47] Speaker A: It's not that they get there and turn around.
[01:05:50] Speaker C: Well, they didn't partake of it. But, I mean, did they really never even just get on the path?
[01:05:56] Speaker A: No, they didn't. They stayed where they were. The dad beckoned them to come and they would not, which is kind of interesting. This is a little bit different. I think what you're saying is valid, but it is interesting that they. I mean, it's because you have some. That press. They work. They do all of the work. They make it through the mists of darkness. They get and they partake of this fruit. So we're clear, we're going to get into a lot of the imagery and symbols of what this means in a later lesson when Nephi sees it. Right. But spoiler alert, the tree is the son of God, Christ, and the fruit of what he has produced, at least for me. As I look at this, it's the atonement to partake of the atonement.
And I think there's several ways we partake of the atonement through the covenants that we make, through repentance, through relying on Christ, a personal relationship with him, whatever the case may be. How that looks, partaking of that. There's a group of people that as they partake of the fruit, even after doing all the work, even after going through the darkness, they turn and they see the mocking of the people in the building, and they're ashamed of what they have. And it's almost a whole different story for them. And they leave. Even after partaking of that, even after making those covenants and seeing how good it is, they leave.
And I think it's kind of interesting. In my mind, I always pictured this river of water, this gulf between the building and the tree. And then I think, how did they make it into the building then? Because it says that some people actually make it to the building. And I almost wonder if they have to walk back the way they came. They're almost intentionally forgetting or reversing what they've gone through to get to where they can get into that building. It's like trading it off or selling it.
[01:07:43] Speaker C: It's interesting.
[01:07:44] Speaker B: That's a great idea. I always thought that they basically just.
[01:07:47] Speaker C: Had to swim across, like, the gulf, which I'm like, man, that just seems so much harder.
That just seems like there's so much more uncomfortable effort that almost goes into it at that point of, like, a.
[01:07:59] Speaker A: Lot of people drowned.
[01:08:01] Speaker C: Well, that's what I'm saying is risk.
[01:08:02] Speaker B: Is that the risk to the reward isn't that great?
[01:08:06] Speaker C: And even the people that do make it over, you're like, oh, man, it would have literally just been more convenient just to stick over here and hang on, push through it. And in that case, you're just going like, oh, yeah, I'm just having to accept that. I have these knuckleheads, like, mocking what it is that I hold dear.
[01:08:24] Speaker B: Whatever.
[01:08:25] Speaker C: Because for a lot of us, we're just like, whatever.
[01:08:27] Speaker B: I stopped caring about that 20 years ago.
[01:08:30] Speaker A: It's fascinating you say that, because then does that not put the path in parallel? You have a building which is almost like a tree. You have the mists of darkness for the tree, but you have the gulf. Either way, you're going to have to go through a lot of whatever to get there. And the imitation, the satan, I mean, the beast is still sealing in your forehead, just as God is sealing up in his forehead those that are righteous. It's almost the same path, different.
And the people there dressed nice, enjoying happy versus the people, partaking the fruit that are filled with happiness and joy. It's just interesting, the parallel between the two.
[01:09:10] Speaker B: Right.
[01:09:11] Speaker C: Another really fantastic point. I've never really thought about.
[01:09:15] Speaker A: Awesome.
[01:09:15] Speaker C: Anything else you want to hit on.
[01:09:17] Speaker B: With this or where we at?
[01:09:18] Speaker A: We're right to the end. I think I'm going to leave the vision for when we get to Nephi, and I'm going to wrap this up because I know we're long. And chapter nine and all these things. Did my father see and hear and speak as he dwelt in a tent in the valley of Lemuel? So there it comes again, right? He's just going to keep driving this home.
And then Nephi gets the commandment to write his plates. I'm not going to go into that. I'm going to skip into chapter ten, verse one. And now I, Nephi, proceed to give an account of these plates, of my proceedings and my reign and ministry. Wait, what? Nephi is referring to this point here after he's gone, after he's got the sword of Laban as his reign and ministry. And this is something that we brought up earlier when we talked about the introduction to the Book of Mormon and kind of that transfer of power that he gets with his encounter with Laban. But it's kind of validated here. And you see a transition between Nephi and his father, where Nephi's been the one leading everybody. He's almost going to slide into an advisor role, and Nephi is going to start taking the head and taking control of this. And you see this a little bit. It's subtle, but he says, I must speak somewhat of the things of my father and also of my brethren. For behold, it came to pass after my father had made it an end of speaking the words of his dream and also exhorting them to all diligence. He spake unto them concerning the Jews. All of a sudden, everything that his dad's speaking, Nephi's not even saying. He's saying to me, he's saying this to them. He's saying this to them.
I don't know. It's kind of interesting.
He's creating a separation between him and his brothers, even early on here. And this instruction, I mean, it's marvelous stuff, right? Chapter ten. We don't have time to go through all of this, but this is his dad prophesying the destruction of Jerusalem, they're going to go into Babylon, that they're going to come back, that the messiah is going to be born, that Christ is going to be alive. And yet Nephi is saying, this is not for my benefit. Nephi has his experiences. He learns.
But Nephi leaves us with some wisdom right at the end of this. And I think this is where we're going to be wrapping this up.
Verse 17. And it came to pass that after I, Nephi, having heard all the words of my father concerning the things which he saw in a vision, and also the things which he spake by the power of the Holy Ghost, which power he received by faith on the Son of God, and the son of God was the messiah who should come. I, Nephi, was desirous also, that I might see and hear and know of the things by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is the gift of God unto all those who diligently seek him, as well as in the times of old, as in the times that should be manifest, that he should manifest himself under the children of God, for he is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And this is going to be really the jumping off point for next week's lesson on Nephi receiving these visions, this idea. And it's not just enough for him to see, but he wants to see, to hear, and to know.
We can't just see, but also to know, like they know, to believe like they believe.
And Nephi is telling us, this is the blessing that God gives to all those. I mean, what sparks all of this? A desire, if I desire. Now, Nephi is describing his own journey from, here's a man in white that's saying, come, follow me. And Nephi is going to go through his darkness, and he wants to know, to see, to hear, and he's going to go through that path and transition to where he gets the revelation and the light. It's the same for all of us. It all needs to start with a desire, and then we pray, and we seek to have those experiences for ourself. Love it.
[01:13:22] Speaker C: Thank you all for listening. You can get hold of us for questions, comments, et cetera at the email address.
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Appreciate you listening. Appreciate you sharing it with your friends. Always appreciate hearing any additional information or insight that you, our listeners, have. Thank you so much for listening. Until next week, see you. Um.
