3 Nephi 8 - 11

[00:00:16] Speaker A: Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the add on Education network. The podcast where we take a look at the weekly come follow me discussion and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here in the studio with our friend and this show's producer, Nate Pfeiffer. [00:00:32] Speaker B: Hello. [00:00:33] Speaker A: Hello. [00:00:35] Speaker B: Greetings from the United States. [00:00:38] Speaker A: Greetings from Spain. I'm looking around normally. Like, I close all the windows and shut all the doors so I don't get a bunch of ambient noise when I'm recording, and I forgot to do that. Like, my window's open, dude. [00:00:49] Speaker B: For some reason, it sounds better than it ever has. There's not a bunch of weird, like, reflection going on in your space. [00:00:56] Speaker A: I wonder if the echo is eliminated with the window being open right now. [00:01:00] Speaker B: It totally is, dude, because then sound can move out. [00:01:03] Speaker A: So. So maybe it's not a bad thing, but if you hear, like, random. The busy streets of Barcelona, dude, I'm on a quiet neighborhood. It's nice. There's no busy streets. [00:01:15] Speaker B: You don't want the busy streets of Barcelona? [00:01:17] Speaker A: No, no. I like. I like the calm neighborhood of battalion Barolona. [00:01:26] Speaker B: How's my spanish accent? Like, my true. My true spanish accent? [00:01:32] Speaker A: I don't know. [00:01:33] Speaker B: Just say it's good and we can move on. [00:01:35] Speaker A: You've got the spanish theta in there. [00:01:36] Speaker B: Barcelona. Come on. [00:01:41] Speaker A: But. But you're like, you play. You lay it on a little heavy. [00:01:45] Speaker B: Oh, what? Okay. [00:01:51] Speaker A: Well. Well, this week, shifting gear, I shifted gears about how an 18 wheeler grinds into the next. I don't know. Is it. Is it hard to shift with an 18 wheeler? Maybe that's a poor example. I shift gears like a teenager learning how to drive stick in a world where stick doesn't exist anymore. [00:02:10] Speaker B: I like that. [00:02:12] Speaker A: That's. That's probably the more accurate description of how I tried to transition into this. [00:02:17] Speaker B: I like that. Yo quiero. More podcast. [00:02:23] Speaker A: Oh, snap. Quiro mas. [00:02:29] Speaker B: You didn't think I was ready for that? [00:02:31] Speaker A: I wasn't ready for that. [00:02:33] Speaker B: That's true. What are we talking about? I mean, I know what we're talking about this week. Yeah, this is, like. This is the. This is the pinnacle of the book, dude. [00:02:42] Speaker A: This. This. This is the chapter. I mean, yeah, this is the build up, man. This is what it's all ready for. Like, the Book of Mormon is almost like this microcosm of the Bible. And in the Bible, you have. We even talked a little bit about this last week, like, these long periods of time where not much is happening. You're just kind of skipping through it, and then time slows down and you get into the gospels and Christ and his coming and the life of Christ and his teachings. It's just, it's. It's beautiful. And, and the Book of Mormon kind of does that in a, in kind of a smaller sort of way. It's like a smaller version of the Bible. You're going through this history. Fast forward, and, and this is what it builds to. This is the whole point, the whole purpose. Christ fulfilling the prophecies, coming to the people, visiting them, and, and before he does. Right. So this, this. Come, follow me. It builds in with chapter eight, which talks about all of the destructions. And you know what? It's kind of interesting to me. There was something that stood out to me as I was reading this. You know how before they were looking with anxiety for the signs of Christ's birth and the nonbelievers had set a date that if the day with the night with no darkness didn't come, they would execute everybody? And, and then it happened, and they're like, oh. And then the whole, everyone was converted and believed for a time. And we're kind of getting to this next. The signs of his death, the tempest, the earthquakes, the destructions, all the horrific things. And, and what I saw in there is that the people, it almost, what I almost need, like, a find the verse. But it's. It's like they were looking forward to it. And I'm like, wait, what? They, they were sitting there. And I get. I get the anxiety wanting it to happen because they've hung all of their hopes and dreams and salvation on this christ coming and the fulfilling of the prophecies. And so they know it's looming and they're looking forward to it, but at the same time, you're like, wait a second. Wouldn't you want to enjoy, like, one more day of normal life before all of a sudden a mountain falls on your village and you're done and, like, you don't exist anymore. Or this darkness or, like, why, why are you looking so, so much forward to destruction and death and everything? I just thought that was kind of interesting. [00:05:09] Speaker B: I have a thought. [00:05:11] Speaker A: Let's hear your thought. [00:05:12] Speaker B: How many kids do you got? [00:05:14] Speaker A: Six. [00:05:16] Speaker B: You didn't have to give birth to any of them, did you? As far as I know. [00:05:20] Speaker A: Obviously not. [00:05:25] Speaker B: From what I've heard of. From what I've heard, birthing a child is not the most enjoyable experience ever in the moment. Yet I will say I see where you're headed yet. I will say there was a lot of excitement and anticipation, knowing that it was going to be very, very, very painful for potentially a long period of time. But knowing the happiness that was on the other side of that, I kind of get it, man. Maybe. I think maybe even the true believers, knowing what was going to come, knew what those signs meant, knew what the arrival of that process meant. To your point, I'm actually really glad you brought this up, because it kind of moves into something that I was noticing myself. There's a lot of focus given to the gnarliness and the 3 hours of just the world tearing itself apart and all of the things that we learned about in Helem in 512, the whirlwinds and the hail and the mighty storms and all of these things. When I was reading it, I'm like, if you didn't give me any sort of time context for this, I'd be like, oh, yeah, this sounds like nuclear war. Like, this sounds like. This sounds like war. This sounds like bombs dropping. This sounds like all of the videos you see of World War Two and of the Vietnam war. And it really kind of shifted the way that I'm thinking, which is, yeah, I'm looking forward to a second coming. I hope that I get to see that in my life, even though I know what that means. And that means that we're going to see the world tear itself apart. We're going to see a lot of very similar signs, I guess, or things happen before that second coming can happen. And maybe that's why when you threw that question out there, I think I kind of am like, man, I already kind of processed a lot of that this morning. And aren't we looking forward to a second coming? I mean, as a kid, we were like, we might be pulling hand carts back to Missouri, right? Like, that doesn't sound fun to me. We're told that the entire earth is, or the entire world's gonna have war. Rumors of war gang up against Israel, and. And God's gonna have to come and part mountains to save them. Uh, we're taught that we need to pay our tithing so that when a fire engulfs the entire earth, we have some fire insurance. I'm just saying all of these things don't necessarily sound fun, and they sound less fun when you have little children that you're like, I'm scared of this world for them. I'm scared of these things for them. My six year old, for some reason, asks me all the time when I'm trying to get him to bed if during the second coming, we're gonna have to fight the Nazis again. And I'm just like, that's so funny to me, that my six year old, it's like, that's one thing that he's heard in his six years that terrifies him. Right? That and aliens and so. [00:08:46] Speaker A: Yeah, not dinosaurs. [00:08:47] Speaker B: Not dinosaurs yet. Well, no, not dinosaurs yet, but because I think that we've been able to convince him that those things aren't something he needs to fear at this point, but for some reason, he's still worried about the Nazis and aliens. So I'm just like, all right, I guess I'm kind of worried about those things, too. My point being, yeah, I know what is going to come with the second coming, and I look forward with hope and anticipation that I get to see that in my life. [00:09:17] Speaker A: Do you think, do you think some of the people that were looking forward to those signs and wondering how come they haven't happened yet? And when they finally arrived and they get to what they were waiting for so much, were looking back and wishing that they had enjoyed life before it all? [00:09:35] Speaker B: Sure. [00:09:37] Speaker A: Right. Like, I was so caught up in waiting for this moment to happen, and now this moment is here. And, and I, and I, and I just wish that we weren't covered in the cloud of darkness. Like that city wasn't evaporated, that maybe, maybe it wasn't as bad as what I thought it was before. And maybe I should have enjoyed it more in the now rather than being so consumed with waiting for this disaster to hit. [00:09:59] Speaker B: I'm glad you brought that up because I think that that question is answered where a lot of the wailing and gnashing that we read about is, I wish we would have repented sooner. I wish we would have prepared sooner. I wish we would have prepared, you know, doing all these things. To me, it just feels natural that the other side of that equation would naturally be. And I wish that we would have taken advantage of the time at peace to maybe hug our kids a little bit harder and to really, you know, prepare in a way that we were also, like, taking advantage. Yeah. Of peace and of calm and of all of those things. So, yeah, I think that that's actually probably answered in the verses this week. [00:10:41] Speaker A: And I think it's interesting, the dichotomy between how the world, I'll call it, reacts to the death of Christ in the Americas versus how the world reacts to the death of Christ in the old world. Right. Jerusalem. And you don't see the same upheaval we don't see mountains falling and destroying cities, and we don't see all of the chaos there. [00:11:06] Speaker B: I mean, we do see some destruction, don't we see. We see, you know, darkness. [00:11:11] Speaker A: Darkness. Mm hmm. [00:11:13] Speaker B: I thought that the earth was still doing its upheaval over there, too. Maybe. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's just not as recorded, as pronounced as we get it in the. [00:11:20] Speaker A: Book of Mormon, but near to the scale of what we see, right. We don't have entire cities dropping into the ocean and mountains relocating. I mean, we get Vesuvius erupting, and that's 79 AD, right. That's 40 years later. And interesting enough, Pliny the Younger. So we talked a couple weeks ago about Pliny the Elder is describing these events that happen where it was just as light at nighttime as it was daytime. And. And one that happened shortly after Caesar's death. And it's his nephew, Pliny the younger that actually records the events that happen with Vesuvius erupting, that his uncle, Pliny the senior, dies in. And he says that the darkness that came over them from this eruption, he says you could feel it. It's so intense and so dark. You can't. It reminds me of what we're seeing in the Book of Mormon when they're talking about not even being able to light a flame. Right. It's not just that it's dark. It's these vapors that are surrounding you and enveloping you. And it just, this, to me, it sounds very similar to massive volcanic eruption and just what's settling over the people in the old world. But there's a dichotomy of difference between the two. And as I look at the difference between the two, maybe in the build up in the ancient world, you didn't have the fall of any empires. The roman empire is going to go on and persist for a long time. Right. But look at what happens in the Americas as they descend into anarchy. I mean, they've murdered their chief judge not for the first time. I mean, how many chief judges have been murdered up to this point? And sure, you have that happening in the roman empire. You've got Caesar that was murdered. You've got a emperors and all sorts of underhand things happening in assassinations that are happening in Rome. But in the americas, you descend literally into anarchy, where the government is dissolved, and you are in a tribal system where you have a patriarch that's presiding over your family and doing your best to try to interact with these other family groups where the whole thing just fractured and broke to a level that you don't see in the old world. And I wonder if the scale of destruction is in scale to, or in comparison to the scale of chaos that the people descended into in that world. Right, like you have them fracturing their government, rebelling against the law, descending into chaos. They can't be governed. They won't be governed. And darkness is ruling over in a way that doesn't even happen over in Jerusalem for as much as what's going on in the old world. And so the reaction of the earth is almost on par with the actions of the people on that side of the world. I just think that's interesting. [00:14:26] Speaker B: I think that's. I do think that that's a great point. I wonder if part of it too is to exactly your point. If the signs are almost relative to what the people will need to see to believe. Almost. Like you said, there's so much chaos. They haven't had Christ with them for the last 30 years. They don't have really any personal accounts of people in the old world. You have word being spread of Jesus of Nazareth all throughout the land. You were hearing about him as far as Rome and some of these other places over in the new world. I guess not only is it chaos, not only is it very disorganized, but you kind of almost need a gnarlier sign, you know what I mean? Maybe to set a landmark. I don't know. Does that make sense? It's like, I think maybe to your point, the scale almost has to be like, this is going to be one of the few pivotal signs that, that needs to be able to reverberate through generations, basically, which it did. You know, you have Quetzalcoatl and you have a lot of these other things, but you almost need, you don't get as many shots at kind of like the word spreading by itself. [00:15:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And you know, to kind of go along those lines as I'm comparing and contrasting these two different sides of the world with each other and looking at the scale and the scope and the damage and whatnot, and as you're talking about the signs that they would need, Christ didn't appear to the Americas. He appeared to Jerusalem. And so that's one difference. But here's also another one. When Christ appeared at Jerusalem, not everybody recognized him. He came, if you will, as a thief in the night, to where only those who were looking for him saw him. Everyone else slept through it. In America, they gave the signs of his birth. And it wasn't just a few shepherds in the field or wise men that were watching, it was the entirety of the people, the nephite nation, the lamanite nation, all of them saw the signs of. And it says that the entirety of them believed you had a converted populace that you didn't have in the old world. And so when the entirety of the people believes and then actively, a great number of them reject it to the point of what we see descend into apostasy, the scale that we see out of destroying the government, of fighting against the church, of killing their leaders, and preferring to have secret combinations, and what is secret combinations? Literally deals with the devil to appease their own selfish desires and gratify their own selfish. I mean, gratify their own selfish interests. And so to actively reject it and turn away from it as opposed to somebody who maybe never recognized it there, you kind of get that difference in scale of darkness versus destruction to the level that we see in the old world. So it's kind of interesting to compare and contrast these two experiences. I like the book of Mormon giving us this other perspective. [00:18:08] Speaker B: Awesome. Let's keep going. [00:18:10] Speaker A: All right. I think I want to talk about a song, Nate, that you don't want to talk about. [00:18:18] Speaker B: Shake it off. No, um. Hold on, hold on. Uh, little drummer boy. No, hold on. Um, a song that I don't want to talk about. Um. Is it. Is it something by Maroon five? [00:18:37] Speaker A: No. [00:18:38] Speaker B: Nickelback? Look at this graph. No. [00:18:45] Speaker A: I'm going to have to recover from it. [00:18:51] Speaker B: Can't possibly be limp Bizkit, because for sure I want to talk about that song. Okay, give me a hint. Is it. Is it a. Is it. Is it anything in the pop world? [00:19:06] Speaker A: That's a good question here. [00:19:07] Speaker B: Is it a church? [00:19:08] Speaker A: I'll give you the context. It's not a church song. I'll give you the context. Right. I'll tell you this. [00:19:14] Speaker B: Jewish writer, okay? Leonard Bernstein. Leonard Bernstein. [00:19:19] Speaker A: You got the first name right. [00:19:20] Speaker B: Leonard Cohen. [00:19:22] Speaker A: That's it. [00:19:22] Speaker B: No, dude, we're not talking about hallelujah again. [00:19:27] Speaker A: It's got to happen. It's got to happen, Nate. [00:19:29] Speaker B: All right? [00:19:30] Speaker A: It's got to happen. And here's why. As we've been talking. Come follow me. And we've been going through these scriptures, for me, the overarching lessons in the themes have really, I felt them and talking about applying them to your family. Right. Some of the things that we were going through when we first made the decision to come out to Spain, for example, when we're going through the New Testament and the young man saying, what shall I do? And the savior's saying, sell what you have and come follow me. Going to later when Paul's trying to make his way over to Spain and then talking about Lehi and taking his journey into the wilderness. Right. A lot of these, these lessons have kind of hit in a way, I think most of us have our own personal journeys and our own personal experiences to where we read these chapters and they come follow me and they seem to hit in a way specific to us. And so this last week, we were talking about how fast these guys jump on board and everything makes sense and they're, and they're all on there and then they just drop into this apostasy. And you have this, this roller coaster of highs and lows. And so I think we even talked about this Joseph Smith. And the first vision, the first vision, as glorious as it is, is preceded with, with Satan trying to choke the life out of him. [00:21:00] Speaker B: Yes. [00:21:01] Speaker A: And you, and I said it when we started this episode three, Nephi, chapter eleven, one of the most powerful chapters in all of scripture. And it is proceeded with tempest, earthquakes, fire, destruction, probably the greatest destruction ever documented in any scripture. And you have that seeing the light in the face of the dark. And so as we were going through things, trying to figure them out, trying to figure out a school in a new environment, trying to figure out the visas and what courses we have to take, because now we have to do a student visa to bridge the time while they're still processing the entrepreneur visa. And we're just looking at the world and having to adjust and starting this new business up because I've left the stability of nine to five job behind and the way to the world and all of these things, trying to hold it together as it's trying to crumble within my hands. And you're going from this, what now? How am I going to deal with this? How am I going to cope? And trying to pick yourself up. Right. And so this last week, we, we had a meeting with our attorneys and, and we were feeling a little bit burdened, a little bit baggaged with everything that we were trying to, to get our hands wrapped around and fix and figure out. And, and we show up at the attorneys and, and we have our meeting. And at the end of the meeting, I actually walk away feeling lifted, feeling really good. And you come from that, that transition, right? That, that switch from the world's falling apart to it's going to be okay. Here's the way that the Lord's going to heal. This is the way that the Lord's going to make this work. And as Janesse and I walked away from that meeting and jumped into the metro. And it happens from time to time, but not. Not super often. I don't know. One out of every 20 metro trips, you'll have somebody jump on with a guitar and start singing. No way. Really? Some. Some set down his amp next to us and started singing hallelujah. [00:23:10] Speaker B: The dude's bringing an amp on. The dudes bringing an amp on the tree. [00:23:14] Speaker A: They got. Yeah. So. So you're going from. I don't know, the song. It just felt right. It just hit. Right. [00:23:25] Speaker B: And singing it in Spanish or in English? [00:23:27] Speaker A: Spanish. Spanish. [00:23:29] Speaker B: Okay. [00:23:30] Speaker A: And so it was kind of like that pick me up moment for me afterwards. Right. And I love. [00:23:36] Speaker B: I'm happy to be talking about the song under these con. On. Under this context. I love this. Keep going. [00:23:41] Speaker A: Well, it goes. It goes even deeper than this. Right. Because the lyrics start standing up in my mind. Right. You know he goes through the chord progression. Right. It goes like this. The fourth, the fifth, the major fall. Minor. The minor fall major lift. [00:23:55] Speaker B: Right. [00:23:56] Speaker A: So. So give me a second to pull this up. Cause now I'm speaking your speak now and I don't. [00:24:01] Speaker B: So now you better not blow it. [00:24:03] Speaker A: I know, right? I can't. I can't. [00:24:04] Speaker B: I'm here to fact check. [00:24:06] Speaker A: You're here to call me out on this. [00:24:08] Speaker B: If we're gonna talk about it, we better talk about it accurately. [00:24:11] Speaker A: We better talk about it. Right. [00:24:12] Speaker B: Let's just. I know it's Leonard Cohen's song, but let's just give it back to. Or let's just give it forward to Jeff Buckley, rest in peace, because he's still the. He's still the only other version that I ever really want to listen to. [00:24:24] Speaker A: Okay. I can, I can. I can tip my hat to Jeff Buckley, but I can't leave Cohen yet. I can't leave Cohen yet. Okay, so, so here. Here's the progression. So I looked up the fourth, the fifth, and said, is that actually how the song goes? And. And sure enough, right. It is, right? Yes. The fourth is the f chord, which is the fourth degree of the C major scale. Yeah. And then the fifth is the fifth degree of the c major scale. [00:24:50] Speaker B: Major. [00:24:52] Speaker A: Yes. Did I. [00:24:53] Speaker B: No, I'm saying. You're right. I'm saying. I'm saying the song correctly even talks about the minor and the majors there. [00:24:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And then it goes to the minor fall, which is a minor chord. Yep. And then it goes to the major lift, which is the f chord, which is back to the major chord. [00:25:08] Speaker B: Yep. [00:25:09] Speaker A: Right? [00:25:09] Speaker B: Yes. [00:25:10] Speaker A: And so it's actually while he's singing that it does that, right? So, well, it goes is the c, and then, like, this is the f, and then the fourth is the Ghdev. The fifth is the c. And then you go down to your, your, the minor fall is actually the a minor fall, and the major lift is actually your f lift. And, and, and where it got interesting to me is even the next line. The baffled king composing Alleluia. Right, so the baffled king composing Hallelujah goes through the same chord progression as it. Well, it goes like this, the fourth, the fifth, the minor fall, the major lift. It goes through that progression quicker. I. But you'll notice it goes c f g c f. So what, what's the difference is it goes through it without the minor fall. So, so what happened? And, and where the minor fall should be is in Hallelujah, and Hallelujah is just major. So through Hallelujah or praising the lord through the Lord, he has cured the fall. He has, he has redeemed the fall. There is no fall in him anymore. And when they're going through, like, the lyrics of the song, right, they're talking about David. He plays a secret chord. And maybe this is an allusion to Bathsheba because he's definitely going to start stating, you know, you saw her bathing on the roof, and then it's also going to talk about SaMson and Delilah. And so this is what he's classifying as minor falls. And I think you and I would readily agree, the sins of David, I have a hard time calling that a minor fall. [00:26:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, that's major. That's a major fall. [00:26:55] Speaker A: That's a major fall. Right. So why is he calling these things a minor fall? And I think, you know, going back to musical terms, when, when you try to go to a forte or a fortissimo, right. An ff or an f to make the song louder or to make it come out of, sometimes the key isn't necessarily singing it louder as much as it's singing it softer before you get into it, so you have a place to go to. Right. And so when I look at what he's doing here, the minor fall, calling David's fall as minor isn't because it's a minor fall. It is compared to the major lift. The fact that Christ's atonement is that much greater than the sin or the fall that we do. Those, those become minor in comparison to the fall. And so I'm seeing this song and I'm seeing what he's doing at. I'm seeing levels, layers. One layer is the music itself and the chord progression. The other layer is in the lyrics and how the lyric is actually matching what's happening in the chord and telling the same story. And then there's the profoundness to it, right? He's actually living this. I don't know if you know the story of him composing Hallelujah. I'll just run through a real quick recap. Cohen said it took him five years to write this song. And he describes times where he's sitting on this floor in his underwear, banging his head on the floor because he's just having a struggle trying to get this right. And they said in his notebook, there's 150 different versions of him trying to go through this and create this song, right? And it finally comes together in 1984. He brings it to Columbia records, and they reject him. And he takes that rejection hard. And he actually descends into alcohol depression and kind of drops off of relevancy, right. And becomes, like, just lost to the world, if you will. In a sense, it's not until Kel sings it later on in the nineties and then later when they produced the children's movie Shrek, when the producer of the movie is looking for a song to put into the movie and she stumbles across Cale's version and says, this is going to be perfect, and then gets permission from Cohen to use his song in the movie Shrek, that all of a sudden it skylights this thing and just launches it right at this point. Cohen's kind of an old guy who's, who's been in this depression this fall that's kind of been irrelevant in the world. And he has this huge lift to stardom that brings him back out. So in his life, he goes through the minor fall and the major lift, and it's the story of redemption, how this song actually redeems him from the depression, from irrelevancy, and boosts him and redeems him and vindicates him at the end when he was rejected by Columbia studios years back. So even one layer deeper, he lives this experience of what he's singing about that he's describing from the biblical characters. And so that all just kind of hit me as we were talking about the minor fall and the major lift, whatever that fall may be. And we talked about it in context of the first vision with Joseph Smith and the struggles that he has before Christ redeems him. We see that story play out here with the nephites and the destruction in the world before Christ comes and you sing, right? And I guess it's that fourth verse, that last verse, when he says, with nothing on my lips but hallelujah, right? He has no excuse for what he did wrong. He's not going to try to explain away why he did it or. Or how it was a sin or really, everything is swallowed up in praising the Lord because of how, you know, you talked about at the beginning having kids, the pain. And I'm asking the question, why would we want to even go through that experience knowing how troublesome that's going to be, and yet how much joy swallows that up and makes it worth it in the end? I think that all kind of came together for me. So that song ended up tying what I was feeling in my life, trying to put the pieces together and hold everything and make sure that we were taking care of what we needed to, to be where we're supposed to be and do what we're supposed to do, and have that kind of redeeming moment that just lifted me up, tying it to what I was reading and come follow me. And yet one more further way that this story personifies and has relevance to me now, even though I'm not seeing Christ necessarily standing and announcing that he's coming, if that makes any sense. [00:31:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I like it. Leonard Cohen actually wrote and discarded probably ten different verses of that song. And so of all of the various people that have covered it over the years, usually there's not a single person that has the exact same arrangement of verses. So, obviously we talked about Jeff Buckley, but there's a lot of people, even before Jeff Buckley, that were taking stabs. I think Elvis Costello took a stab at it, and a lot of, and even Leonard Cohen, when he would perform it, would put different verses in there. And there is something that's interesting is that all of the different people that have covered it over the years have kind of made it their own in a weird sort of way. It's like they kind of took the verses that that meant the most. Jeff Buckley's version is the one that is kind of universally accepted as the verses that we keep, but there are actually other verses in there, too. And, I don't know, maybe there's something there as well. [00:32:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you. [00:32:49] Speaker B: There are definitely some versions that are obnoxious. There you go. You know how Wonderwall was, like, the thing that all of the dudes, like, when they wanted to impress girls at the party, they would sing in Wonder wall. And at a certain, you're like, the song's fine, but not every dude that's learning how to play guitar needs to play it. Unfortunately, hallelujah is kind of that, but on steroids. It's like when you actually. When you do or learn a few chords, you graduate from Wonderwall to hallelujah. [00:33:19] Speaker A: What's the show where the guy grabs the guitar and starts playing stairway to heaven in, like, a guitar center at the point of the sign? No. Stairway to heaven. [00:33:27] Speaker B: Yeah. No, that's Wayne's World. They had. They point to the sign in Wayne's World. No stairway. Yeah, it's kind of like that. [00:33:35] Speaker A: See? [00:33:35] Speaker B: But even stairway has, like, way hard chords. No, I mean, the thing is, at the end of the day is like, I've. I love the song hallelujah. I think it sometimes is just misused or overplayed, but. But, dude, I'm always. I'm always down to talk about a little music theory, which is another tip. [00:33:51] Speaker A: To the success of it. Right? I mean, it went from irrelevance to one of the most covered songs today, and. And that was his major lift. That. That's. That. [00:34:02] Speaker B: But even before Shrek, all I'm saying is, is the. The real ones. No. You can thank Jeff Buckley for. For putting it in a. For putting it in a. [00:34:09] Speaker A: Was he pre Shrek? Because I think. [00:34:10] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, Shrek. No, he wasn't. Dude, Jeff Buckley released that song in, like, 1994. [00:34:17] Speaker A: Did he? [00:34:17] Speaker B: His version, like, I think it was 1994. Hold on. I'm gonna ask Google right now. When did Jeff Shrug. Hallelujah. August 23, 1994. Dude, don't mess with me in nineties music, man. [00:34:32] Speaker A: When did Shrek come out? 2003. 2009? [00:34:35] Speaker B: What year did the movie Shrek come out? 2001. Get out of here, bro. I appreciate your assessment of the song, but, dude, don't question my nineties music knowledge. Dude, without even finding out, I told you the exact year that Jeff Buckley, rest in peace, released that song. But the thing is, Shrek knew about that song because of Jeff Buckley's version. Dude, honestly, kind of to your point here, a lot of things even had to happen from it for it to get from Leonard Cohen to Shrek. That's all I'm even saying, too. And for a lot of people that go back and listen to the Leonard Cohen version when they've heard so many other beautiful versions, it can be very off putting because he sings, like, an octave or two lower than most people. Weird key. He's got the weird kids singing behind him. It doesn't. Well, it doesn't to most people. I actually love the Leonard Cohen version because it. It's sung by somebody that doesn't get to sell the song on how great his voice might sound or on how great the production is. And it actually. I kind of like listening to his version. Cause it's broken. Like, his version is kind of the broken version of the song, where Jeff Buckley's feels like an angel is singing the song to you. And so for whatever it's worth, it's like it even took. It took a lot of years in revision for it to even get from Leonard to Shrek. So there you go. A little more context there for what it's worth, too. [00:36:02] Speaker A: I mean, just one more layer in this, and I promise I'll move on. There are definite sexual undertones to the song, and I'm not off put by that. Go back to our take on the song of Solomon in the Old Testament and the worth listening to. [00:36:19] Speaker B: If you haven't listened to it, you can go back and listen to it. [00:36:22] Speaker A: The relationship between God and his people has always been an intimate relationship. And the knowledge and how he invites us to know him, it's interesting. And he talks about our loyalty. He compares it to the loyalty of a spouse. So I don't even mind those two going together in a song in a way that you can kind of misconstrue it for one or the other. It's almost a double meaning. Or I kind of like. I kind of like the. How that. How that feels. [00:36:47] Speaker B: Okay, cool. [00:36:49] Speaker A: All right, let's get back into. Let's get back into the greatest. The greatest there is, right? I mean, greater than the song, greater than Christ coming to America, and the crowning moment here in the Book of Mormon. I'm going to go into third Nephi, chapter eleven. And feel free to interject if you had anything before I run into here. [00:37:13] Speaker B: Here's my only thing. You brought it up earlier, and it kind of just hit me, too. Really? So much of the Bible is just thousands of years before Christ comes, and then you have the gospels, which is just such a small, tiny little segment. You even have more of what we have been given as the bible of after Christ died. Right. Like, everything after the gospels almost far outweighs just the physical space taken up. I know that that's not exactly the same in the Book of Mormon, but it is kind of. If you do, like, a truncated version of this. Right. So much of the book is before Christ comes. We have a few chapters of where Christ is actually here, and then you actually have a lot of chapters after that, you know what I mean? That's almost kind of trying to make sense of a lot of that stuff, too. One of the first things that we are going to read about is how even before Christ physically comes back, he talks about fulfilling the law of Moses. And then just inevitably things have to change from that point, right, because the law of Moses was such a driving force. But I guess I'm just saying there is something interesting too, and I feel like you and I will probably have way more to talk about in the chapters, even after this. You know what I mean? When we're talking about all of the things that have changed, all of the new laws and things that have been instituted after Christ comes, it's funny that it's just such a small, kind of straightforward, pure few chapters of when Christ is actually here, it's like there's actually surprisingly less to talk about than you would think because it's so plain and simple, right? Christ comes, calls the children, blesses them, gives them sermon on the mount, part two, institutes the sacrament. You know what I mean? It's like, in a weird sort of way, it's like so much of the turmoil before and after this, there's so much more room to kind of try to like parse through it and sort through some of that stuff. When Christ is actually here, it's just beautiful scripture. It's kind of like the gospels in a lot of ways. It's just like you can see how Christ would interact. Now go and be like him, I guess. [00:39:29] Speaker A: But anyways, yeah, we get these condensed teachings of Christ. What I think we miss in the Book of Mormon is I look through it and I mean, I guess this is going to be a later discussion when we get through the teachings that he's going to be doing next week. But I don't see the parables. We get the sermon on the mount and we get a lot of instruction, and we get on the ordinances and how things can be made, and we get him pulling the kids together and teaching them, and we get that we only have a fraction of what he said. And maybe the one thing I miss reading the Book of Mormon accounts of Christ coming here is those parables, teachings that we got in the New Testament. But one thing, this chapter starts in chapter eleven with a voice. The people are there at the temple, and I think there's even significance to that setting, to the fact that they're going to be there at the temple when this happens. And maybe we should even just check if it mentions what time of year that's happening. I don't know that it does. [00:40:42] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't, off the top of my head, remember, but I may be wrong. [00:40:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm reading verse one right now. And now it came to pass that there were gathered a great multitude together, the people of Nephi, round about the temple, which was in the bountiful. And they were marveling and wondering, one with another, at the change that had been taking place. And they're conversing about Christ and the sign of his death. So I don't see that. But I'm wondering, and maybe I should dive into this a little bit more and see if I can find something to add to my personal study. When you have a group of people gathered at the temple, is this corresponding with one of the feasts? With one of the jewish holidays? What are they doing gathered there at the temple? Is it just rebuilding the temple? Or is this actually for a purpose, like King Benjamin? They gathered there for a harvest feast? Or is this like a Passover feast? So it, it is curious, and I wonder what the setting is for, for them coming. But. But soon there's this voice, and, and not everybody. Well, they hear it, but not, no one understands it. And I want to talk about that voice for a second, because I don't know that this happens very often in scriptures where you actually have Christ the Son and God the Father both present, making it, making an entrance. And as far as ancient scripture goes, the only other time I can think of. And correct me if I'm wrong, Nate, correct me if I, if I'm missing an example, maybe we could take a second to think about this. But where God speaks and, and Christ is there only happens one other time, right? That is the baptism of Christ, when John the Baptist is baptizing him and the heavens open, and this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased. Does it. Does it happen? [00:42:36] Speaker B: I mean, Garden of Eden, but. Right. Do we, do we, do we think that there's anywhere in the Garden of Eden? It would be my only other question. I don't, I don't. I'm not saying there is. I'm asking. [00:42:46] Speaker A: Right, in that case. And God said. And God said, and we have the presence of God. And in which case is that, is that God the father? I don't know. [00:42:54] Speaker B: That's why I'm saying. I'm literally just brainstorming with you to see if I can kind of think of any of the other ones off the top of my head. [00:43:01] Speaker A: But we have instances where Stephen sees God sitting on the right hand of God. Yes, you have visions, and Lehi sees a vision where God is seated on his throne and he sees Christ descending from there. So you have visions of this. And I think in all these experiences, they're personal visions. You even have Joseph Smith, who's going to have his first vision where he sees God and the son Jesus Christ. It doesn't happen very often that we hear about this, but I think this is a rare occurrence because not only do you hear the voice of God the father and see the son Jesus Christ, but you're also, a large multitude of people is seeing and witnessing this as well. And I think the rarity of it begs us to kind of pay attention. It's God himself who's putting this emphasis and driving this. And the other thing that I liked about this and the voice, not just that, it's God the father speaking. And we introduce this character here that we don't typically see, but the fact that everybody hears it and that he's talking to everyone, but not everybody listens. And I think that is, again, just as relevant today as it is then. I think God speaks to all of his children today just as he spoke to them. Then the question is, are we listening? The difference is. So I think it's, here you have God, who created the world, who clearly could have announced the coming of his son with a large trumpet and made sure everyone was focused and looking at him before he even began speaking. But he doesn't. He speaks in a quiet, soft, easily missed voice. And you're like, why? Why God, if you have the power to address everyone? And do we want to be critical of God and say, man, God should have done this a little bit different. Maybe he should have announced this like a thunder to where no one could mistake what he was saying. And now we're all paying attention and nobody missed it. But I love that God does it in such a way that requires us to have buy in, requires that we go and meet him. He's come to save us, but he's laid his expectation, he's laid his line. He's going to come up to this point and it's our responsibility to meet him the rest of the way. And it's. Yeah, it's not until they strain their, their, their ears, they look at the source of where it's coming, they hush and stop talking to each other. And those actions that they're taking shows their investment, their buy in, in their salvation and their understanding of their hearing. The word of God. And so I think we can take that and apply it to us very much today. When, when people say, God doesn't speak to me, which, which reminds me of Laman Lemuel, God doesn't say that to us. And Nephi asked the question, well, have you asked, there's Nephi pulling in that same buy in. Have you stopped the noise? Have you focused on the source of where it should be coming? Have you strained your ears to try to hear? If not, then you'll never understand that he's what he's saying or how he's saying it. And so when you go to the example that Nephi is laying out, God spoke to them through Lehi's dream. And what is Lehi's dream? To me, there are comparisons with Lehi's dream and the voice of God here, that they could hear it, they just couldn't understand it. And so, if I were to make a comparison for us today, God speaks to us through the scriptures. And we can read the scriptures, but just like the voice of God, we might not clearly understand what the scriptures are saying to us. It might not make a lot of sense. We might not get it at all. In which point we have an opportunity to. To block out some time, to block out the noise, to try to focus and strain ourselves, to try to understand what's happening and how this speaks. And then the sound, the voice of God, will become clear through the scriptures as he speaks to our heart. Or we can just ignore it, and he'll speak to those who are willing to put in the effort to try to understand. So for any who's struggling and saying, the Lord just doesn't speak to me like he does to other people. I don't have these visions or these wonderful experiences or the whatever. The whatever. The whatever. Well, he's speaking, I think, to everybody. What are we doing to try to meet him on that? And maybe we expect something glorious or massive or whatever, when it's a small, simple voice to begin with, maybe that little prompting that we had to go stop by and see somebody, or that little prompting that we had to write something down or to pick something up or to not forget it, that we don't think is a big deal is the same volume of voice that he's speaking to somebody else to go drop everything and do a massive miracle. Maybe we have unproper expectations and how the Lord's speaking to us and need to realize that those small, simple things are just as powerful and potent as the Lord speaking to Daniel in the lion's den or Abraham to go sacrifice his son. Which makes those stories all the more impressive to me. If they were willing to follow such a small, simple voice that wasn't so clear and obvious that they had to put in their own interpretation and they had to try to understand it as best they could. And they're doing the best with what they feel like they're supposed to do. But it's not as clear as God just gave them a stone tablet written on them telling them what to do. [00:49:03] Speaker B: Awesome. [00:49:07] Speaker A: The other thought I had as I was reading here, I get obviously to the part where Christ is inviting the people to touch the marks in his hands and his feet and to thrust their hands into his side to know that he is Christ because they talked about him being crucified, they talked about him dying for the people, and now he could see the proof. I like that Christ is tying things up. He's a man of his promise and it's important that he's a man of his word because if he says something and he follows through in it and we can trust him, then we can trust him on the invisible that we can't see him. Validating these things physically to the people is important for us to have faith that we will resurrect from the dead, that we can become like him, that we can be with our families forever. Right? He needs to do this in a way that we can believe. But at the same time, as much as I respect and I love that he is fulfilling it by every jot and every tittle and coming through with that. As I read those verses, I had thoughts similar to what Bruce R. McConkie said. I don't feel like I have to see Christ and put my hand into his side to know that he's Christ for me. I look at my life and where I was, who I was and where I've come and who I am today and the changes that have been made and the progress that I've been, that I've had, the miracles that the Lord has shown and the redemptive power of the atonement and how it is saving me on a continual basis and continues to save and transform and improve and make me a better person. And all because I trusted in him. And to me that is much more significant proof of the nature of the savior than ever having to put my hand in his side to know that he did what he did. I know he is who he is because I can see his work through the entirety of my life and his signature and I can see how I've changed, and I can see the atonement work through me to where I can't but help believe that he is who he is. More than that. Know that he is who he is through the works that he's manifest throughout my life. Love it. [00:51:47] Speaker B: I'm with you. The nice payoff of this is, though, is that eventually they do get to see him. So I do appreciate the timeline of this. Right. It starts out with faith, and then you get a voice, and then eventually you get the savior, which is funny, because that's kind of the reverse of how a lot of people want. A lot of people want to see something first, be told something over and over, and then have faith and believe without seeing. And this. The signs of all of this follow Christ's way of helping build our faith so that we can eventually see him. It's faith first, then it's a still, small voice, and then it's. And then it's the vision. [00:52:39] Speaker A: Yeah. I love that you highlight that process. You know, it's not. It's not that they had to be perfect before they saw Christ, but it's also not. [00:52:51] Speaker B: They also had to be cleansed, though. They had to be tried. They had to be like. And then they had to have faith while doing that, too, without seeing and without hearing. [00:53:01] Speaker A: That's the thing. Like, you talk about the faith that they had, and I'm trying to think, well, what about. What about the people that didn't hear the voice that came and saw Christ the next day? Wait, wait, wait, wait. Isn't their effort to travel from wherever they were to go? And it says that they worked all that night getting their chores done so that they could be there the next day to see Christ. Isn't. Isn't that just as much the actions that we see these people taking? Early on, nobody got to see Christ without paying the price of admission. You talked about this faith and repentance, right? They. And what is faith? It is the principle of action. They had to believe to the point that they changed. They did. And that's repentance. I hate that repentance gets such a weird definition in our world, right? It's not that they believed, and then they had to go run and find their bishop or confession or go do this checklist to make sure that they were squared away. It's that they believed enough to. That they were willing to strain themselves to hear that they were willing to approach Christ and put their hand. What is repentance? It is the process of behaving. In a certain way because of the faith that you have, because you trust that source, because you. Now I'm acting off of the faith and that action. That is repentance because I am behaving in a way different than what I would have otherwise because of my belief. And that behavior is taking on the name of Christ, following him, doing those things. That is repentance because it's causing us to turn. What's the hebrew word for repentance? Shuv. To turn. It's causing us to turn towards Christ and follow him. And so for me, repentance isn't so much. I'm going to stop doing bad things as much as I am going to turn towards Christ and follow him. And that's what they've done here, by hearing that voice and approaching him and touching him, is, that's repentance. And that, that's how their life goes. And if they show fruits worthy of repentance, what's the next natural step? And that's Christ comes here and just lays it out without parables, without hiding anything. Faith, repentance, baptism. And what's the very first thing Christ does when he shows up? Baptize him. Right? Like, he's going to call. He's going to call Nephi, and he's going to give him the authority to baptize. He's going to say what words he uses to baptize. He's going to call others, and he's going to commission them to baptize the people. And so baptism becomes this very first process. And what is baptism? Leaving the old behind and following Christ, becoming the new one. And he says, this is my gospel. [00:56:02] Speaker B: Great stuff. Anything else you want to hit this week? [00:56:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, just, we talked about hearing the voice of God and the Son and how it doesn't happen very often, but it did happen in the baptism of Christ. So is it not fitting here that you, that you start the chapter this way and then naturally segue into baptism and what baptism is going to be? Right. It's, it's a good fit. And with you, I don't know. We've had, we've talked a lot about baptism. I loved, I loved your insight and discussion going back to the episode in the New Testament when Christ was baptized. And specifically what I'm referring to is when Christ tells John the baptism, it is. [00:56:51] Speaker B: Expedient for us that we fulfill all righteousness. Yeah. [00:56:57] Speaker A: So that maybe just a tip to that episode, if anyone. I think it. I think it pairs well with this. When we're talking about Christ showing up. Yep. [00:57:07] Speaker B: It's great. Sounds like your family's getting ready for dinner back there. [00:57:14] Speaker A: You know, they probably are. [00:57:18] Speaker B: I'm getting ready to start my day, baby. Anything else? Anything else you want to hit before we, before we dip this week? [00:57:27] Speaker A: You know, it's, it's, it's a little bit off the topic from what we were talking about, but I still think it needs to be said. And it's just one quick thing to say. I don't. I don't think the miracle is necessarily in all the massive destructions that happen. I don't think the miracle is necessarily in, in the voice or this or that or the other. Honestly. I think the miracle is in the timing of it all. Volcanoes can erupt. The signs can happen. But. But for the one who knew that the fish would swallow the coins that Peter could fish out and get to be able to pay the taxes for, the one that knows he's in control. He's in control. And at times in our life we're going to be feeling like we're going through the chapters of eight and at times of our life we're going to get to the point where we feel like we're into chapter eleven and it's a. If we trust the Lord, it'll work out. But sometimes the greatest miracle isn't that the miracle happens, it's the timing of the miracle. I think that was worth saying. And with that, I'll be done. [00:58:28] Speaker B: You just reminded me one of the other things I did want to actually talk about briefly was that we talk about the shepherd going and leaving and finding the one and bringing him back to the fold. Sometimes part of that is destroying everything in the lives of that one so that Christ can invite that person to come back to them. In chapter eight and chapter nine, one of the themes was come unto me, follow me, come back to me. Right. A lot of the people were like, man, I really wish I would have not waited so long to repent and get everything right. Sometimes Christ going out to find us, the one that's lost. I know it's a beautiful story in the parable of the shepherd going out and finding the one. Sometimes that process isn't as fun. And when we have things also that are being maybe burned down and destroyed in our lives, maybe Christ is just also giving us an opportunity to do our part to also come back to his voice and to come back to him and to use that as a. Is a chance to do our part to come back unto him as well. So I just, I thought as I was reading it, I was kind of like, oh, that's kind of a funny way of Christ going out to reclaim his people and to find his lost sheep is to basically rip the earth to pieces. [00:59:54] Speaker A: You don't have the major lift without the minor. [00:59:57] Speaker B: That's what it is. So anyways, Jason, appreciate you. Appreciate the time that you always put into preparing these. You can get ahold of us at the email address, hyaclydeepdive.com. we always appreciate hearing feedback, comments, questions, insights from you all as well. So please feel free to jump on that email and hit us up and say, what's up? Appreciate you listening and sharing with your friends, everybody out there. And yeah, until next week, see you.