Ezra & Nehemia

Speaker 1 00:00:15 Welcome Speaker 2 00:00:15 To the weekly deep dive podcast on the add on education network, the podcast where we take a look at the weekly, come follow me this discussion and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd here in the studio, back with Nate Piper from Alaska. Speaker 1 00:00:31 Yeah, baby. I'm back. Speaker 2 00:00:32 How were the, uh, woods up there? Nate Speaker 1 00:00:34 Healing. Speaker 2 00:00:36 I like it. Speaker 1 00:00:37 It was incredible. Speaker 2 00:00:38 Hey, healing is very appropriate for the lesson this week. Speaker 1 00:00:41 Let's talk about it. Speaker 2 00:00:42 Yeah. We're gonna get into Ezra and NA NAIA. Speaker 1 00:00:47 That's just such an uncomfortable word to hear you say Speaker 2 00:00:49 It's a terrible it's. Uh, so <laugh> it in Hebrew you have four guts. Speaker 1 00:00:57 Okay. That Speaker 2 00:00:59 Is one of the four guts. Yep. And it, and it has kind of this sound to it. Speaker 1 00:01:03 Yep. Speaker 2 00:01:04 So the H is, is pronounced with a little bit of a, kinda like the C H in Bach. Speaker 1 00:01:08 Oh yep. Speaker 2 00:01:10 Illa, Speaker 1 00:01:10 Just keep saying it as much as we can just so that everyone Speaker 2 00:01:13 Just makes it stops even more uncomfortable Speaker 1 00:01:15 Within two and a half minutes of this podcast. All right. Let's keep going. Well, Speaker 2 00:01:20 Welcome to the weekly deep dive. Speaker 1 00:01:22 Okay. So NHE Speaker 2 00:01:24 NAIA and Ezra and, uh, it's fitting because we're, I mean, we're skipping through a little bit of history here. Last week, we talked about the, the utter destruction of Israel and it, it, if you've noticed reading the Bible, when we say Israel in the Bible, in the old Testament, it oftentimes refers to the Northern 10 kingdoms. And Judah refers to the Southern two kingdoms and, and technically two and a half, 10 and a half cuz Manassas split between the two. But any anyhow Israel gets scattered to the as Syrians and, and as Syria brings all sorts of nations back in there, juah gets car carted off into Babylon. And it, this is not chronological order because what's happening in between where we left off last week. And what we're covering this week is Esther, which we're gonna talk about next week. Uh, hers is kind of the, the time period of when the Jews are captive inside of Babylon mm-hmm <affirmative> and Daniel, Daniel also happening after, after they get deported into Babylon. Speaker 2 00:02:30 So we're, we're, we're, we're missing a few stories. It's not gonna exactly be chronological order, but it is the order in which the Bible is, is written. So we're gonna be talking about the return of Israel. Eh, I said it the return of Israel, but technically more, it's the return of Judah, the Southern kingdom from Babylon back into Jerusalem, the rebuilding of the temple. This is a very healing time for the Jews. And, and so that's why I, I, I say it's fitting that it was a very healing adventure for you. Yep. Ezra is Hebrew for help. NAIA is, is Hebrew for, uh, the, the comfort of Jehovah. So comforting help this, this idea of bringing him back, restoring him taking care of him. But before we dive down to this rabbit hole too much, there there's a few thoughts. So for, for, for those of you who missed when we talked about Elijah and Elijah taking it back two and, and three lessons ago, those, those are some of my favorite lessons we've covered in, in the entire old Testament, Genesis, Elijah, Elijah, some of my favorites, but something I, I just wanted to throw in a few more snippets if that's okay from that, from that yeah. Speaker 2 00:03:45 Section let's do it. We talked about Elijah, meaning my God is Jehovah and, and Elijah's purpose and role coming in there and stating, you know, how long are you gonna walk between two worlds and convincing the people that Jehovah is God versus Elijah's role and their names are so similar, but his name, Ellie, my God, um, Yeshi salvation, my God is salvation showing the different ways of salvation. And as we were talking about the acts head floating and the water's kind of symbolic of tribulation and trouble as drowning in the depths death. And, and so the guy has pretty much sold himself into slavery because he can't repay the, the loss of this borrowed acts and Elisha the profit cuts off a branch and throws the branch in the water and causes this head to float. As I was thinking about that story, some more something that kind of stood out to me as we talked about that branch being symbolic of Christ is that the story also says that Elisha took the extra effort to cut the branch. Speaker 2 00:04:51 And it's not just a branch branch that's broken off, but he cuts the branch. And, and I love that imagery because Christ was wounded for our transgressions. He was cut by the nails piercing his, his hands, his feet, and the, the spear being thrust into his side. He was cut for our transgressions. This branch was cut so that he could be delivered from the, the waters. And, and water's also symbolic of, of the grave death. You look at the waters of baptism, this idea of it being ground level and being buried into the waters, symbolic of death, being raised from death, floating up to the top of the waters, resurrection because Christ was wounded. So I, I just loved that imagery. And, and I wanted to kind of go back and hit that real quick. I love that. I'm glad we hit that. And, and maybe one more point worth mentioning. Speaker 2 00:05:38 And, and then I promise I'll move on Yeshi. The, the Yesha the Hebrew for salvation. That word should be semi-familiar because that Hebrew word translated into Greek is Jesus. So it, it's kind of cool that you have Elijah and Elijah and their name's so very similar and back to back the way you do, because it's almost an old Testament, new Testament type reference. My God is Jehovah. My God is Jesus. And that parallel saying Jehovah is Jesus. They, they are the same person. So it's, it's kind of interesting the role, those two prophets and their names have in how they're placed together in the, in the historical record and the testimony that they bear, even, even in that small, subtle detail that gets missed. It's beautiful. Thank you. Should we get into the restoration? Let's do it. Alright. If, if you guys read, I'm hoping you read, I hope you all read these scriptures, uh, preferably even before you listen to the podcast, cuz we don't have time to reference every little single thing from here reading, but as we start talking about it, hopefully it kind of rings a bell with you from what you've read or what you're familiar with. Speaker 2 00:06:49 And it, it makes it a little bit more rich for you. But as we're reading first, you have Cyrus king of Persia and he's come in and conquered the Babylonians. And he realizes that he, he has a special role in, in Jewish history that his role is to let these people go back to Jerusalem and build their temple. And we're gonna talk about this a little bit later in the year when we get to Isaiah, because Isaiah prophesies of Cyrus's role by name. And so as the Jews predicted this was going to happen even down to like 70 years after captivity, we are going to be, let go, we're gonna go back and it's gonna be a king that the Lord is gonna raise. And it, it just not going too deep into Isaiah's prophecies, but he does say he's going to raise them from the east and from the north. Speaker 2 00:07:43 And Cyrus is interesting because he is part Meads, the Meads M E D E S are north of Babylon, but he's also part Persian, which is east of Babylon and Cyrus unites the two kingdoms. So he is really coming from the north and the east, these two kingdoms to liberate the Jews from Babylon and at great personal expense. He, he looks at this and he looks at these people and, and he fills it his duty to restore them to their lands and have them dedicate a temple to their God. And he even goes through the Babylonian records and finds a list of all the temple instruments, ornaments and where they are and kind of a receipt of what the Babylonians took and makes sure that all of that is gathered and given back to the Jews, pays for the restoration that for them to go back and, and to make sure that they're all set up to build a temple to the Lord. Speaker 2 00:08:42 So it's a, it's a touching story and, and it was a story very much prophesied about. And, and this idea, anytime we're talking about restoration, I think is a more bright image than talking about death and destruction and getting lost that even though things seem bad, there does come a time when things will be brought back together. What, what I want to highlight in this is the restoration of Israel versus the restoration of Judah, because we don't read about a restoration of Israel as prominent or as clear as what we see with the restoration of Judah. And as we're talking about these two different kingdoms, because Israel and this is where we get the, the lost 10 tribes. And I'm, I'm sure, I'm sure all of our listeners have heard of the lost 10 tribes before these guys at the country to the north. They weren't carried away, captive into baby in the same way that Jerusalem was the same way that Judah was. Speaker 2 00:09:43 They were destroyed, uh, 120 years earlier, seven 20 BC by a Syria and, and they're deported, but they're never brought back into the land instead. And, and this is gonna come up very clear. In fact, maybe we read this in Ezra when they start writing letters back and forth. Um, they, they write a letter to the king of, of Persia. Give me half a second. As I open this up. And in this letter, they cite all of the different kingdoms where they come from. So this is, uh, Ezra chapter four, verse nine, then wrote re whom the, the chancellor and shim shy the scribe and the rest of their companions, the D uh, the D Knights, the Afra. Um, this is, this is a little be fun to read. This is your baguette's. Uh, favorite part, Nate watching people butcher these names. This is my favorite part. Speaker 2 00:10:44 <laugh> the, the Afra Seth, Seth kites, the tartes and the Afro sights and the archivy and the Babylonians and the, um, the Susan kites and the decoys and the mites and the rest of the nations, whom the great and noble Aspar talking about the king of a Syria brought over and set in the cities of Samaria. So we talked about this last week, when a Syria deported Israel, they didn't just deport them, but they brought all of these different nations that were reading about in this week's lesson and planted them into Israel so that you don't have one single cohesive nation anymore. You have all sorts of different ethnic groups that, that can't really unite very well on a United front, against the kingdom to revolt. They, they, they're kind of, everyone's a little bit shy and kind of holding to themselves, and they don't, they don't unite to form a good, strong rebellion in doing this. Speaker 2 00:11:48 Lions came outta the woods and was eating everybody up and, and the king of a serious with his counselors. And they say, what's happened is you've offended the Lord of that land. If they're going to be prosperous, you have to teach them how to worship the Lord of that land. So they took Levis and brought them from where they had deported them back into Israel to teach them how to worship Jehovah. This is where the Samaritans came from. But I wonder if, as we're talking about the restoration of Judah and you never see these 10 tribes of Israel coming back, if the restoration of Israel isn't, isn't so much the 10 tribes coming from wherever they were taken back, as much as the Gentiles being grafted in to the house of Israel and the restoration of, of Israel, the restoration of the 10 tribes is really go, go to that parable of the olive tree and Jacob five that you see in the book of Mormon, when that tree gets scattered and branches go to all these various different parts, that's exactly what happened to the Northern kingdom. Speaker 2 00:12:54 With the, as Syrians, all of these were taken to different lands, some more fertile than others, and some different whatever. And nation Gentiles were brought into this tree to try to save this tree. And this was Israel. And so I think the restoration of Israel preceded the restoration of Judah in that it wasn't a restoration in the, in, in, in the sense that the 10 tribes were brought in as much as it was a restoration in that all of these nations adopted Jehovah and were taught how to worship Jehovah and, and became Israel. And, and I want you, as you're thinking about this, and, and again, maybe the highlight is this is, this is a perspective. I'm not trying to put this out and say, this is exactly what the scripture means. I'm just trying to read it, understand it, and offer some perspective on how I see this. Speaker 2 00:13:50 But look at these stories, the, the loss of Israel and the deportation of Judah and the restoration of Israel and the restoration of Judah are the most prominent themes in the old Testament. And they're going to add a lot of context and coloring and flavoring to the parables that Christ shares in the new Testament. And when you have all of these nations being brought into Israel, think of Christ again, when he is talking to the Jews and they say, we have Abraham as a father, and Christ says, I can take of these stones and raise, seed up onto Abraham. And, and essentially that is what he did with the Northern kingdom is he brought all of these people and restored Israel in that sense, outside of the house of, outside of the house of Israel, outside of the seed of Abraham, he brought up new seed of Abraham and, and the Samaritans had the Bible and they had worship and, and a lot of, and a lot of, I I'd have to go maybe next week's for, for homework, I'll try to, to find some references, but the Samaritan scriptures were very accurate and provide some very interesting perspective into this, not as far off as what the, the Southern kingdom leads us to believe. Speaker 2 00:15:08 There is an animosity that exists between the Southern kingdom and the Northern kingdom, even before they split. When you look at Saul, who was from Benjamin, which is one of those two kingdoms in the south, when he is chosen as a king, a lot of the north doesn't really accept him until you have that, that moment where he unifies Israel by, by cutting up the oxygen and sending it all over just as they had done when Benjamin had offended Israel, but he unifies them against a common enemy. And eventually all of Israel, uh, anos him. But when, but when David becomes king, you have that fracturing against Saul's son is supported by the 10 tribes of Israel to the north. And David is supported by Judah and in the south, and, and he's able to unite them. Then you have Solomon Solomon son, the, the kingdom divides again, and, and it never reunites from that point on. Speaker 2 00:16:03 And, and you have this animosity between Efram the, the head of the tribes and the north and Judah, the head of the two tribes of the south. And, and that rivalry is a very sibling rivalry throughout the whole Bible. Very persistent. When we get to the Samaritans, that rivalry is taken up to a level higher than what it even was because they're blending with these other nations. But as offensive as that seems, read the Bible, that's what Judah was doing the whole time. They were told, do not mix with the Canaanites and what do they do? You're supposed to exterminate all these people and not, and, and yet they're inter marrying, they're worshiping their gods, they're bringing in their practices. So the kettle calling the pop black here, when, when Judah is very offended by Samaria coming in and all these outside nations worshiping well, that's, that's the same thing that they were doing essentially. And we see that here again, in Ezra, when the Temple's done that people start marrying inter marrying with the Canaanites again, and Ezra has to say, no, no, no, we're, we're gonna kind of go back to cleaning that vessel and, and fixing things and making ourselves a more dedicated and a better people than that. So Speaker 1 00:17:18 How does this have to do, maybe within the parable of the good Samaritan, because, because I think that when we were kind of talking about before you related you related kind of some of that, you were, you, you explaining the animosity between these two and the history between these two, I think really added a lot of detail and perspective to that parable specifically. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:17:39 Well, let's look at a few of these parables. So the first you mentioned the, the par the parable of the good Samaritan, I, I think it's a great parable, because here you have an example of, of a Levi of a priest of these guys that have these roles to, to officiate in the temple and, and stopping to cleanse this, this man that has open wounds has, has issues of blood would disqualify them from temple service. And, and so they felt like their obligation to the temple and, and their duty to God was more important than, than their duty to this. The stranger that lied their beaten on the street that was likely going to die if they didn't take care of them. And, and so rather than defile themselves, they were overly P pious to their, to their duty where the Samaritan didn't have those same reserves or, um, reserves. That's not the right way to say that is it, um, Speaker 1 00:18:35 Reservations. Speaker 2 00:18:36 Thank you. <laugh> thank you. Didn't have those same reservations. He, he, he took it upon himself to go and do this. And, and I think that you can look at that as a commentary from Christ on the Southern kingdom's overly pious look and disdain on the Samaritans to the north. And, and they would accuse them of being unclean and of not being pious enough yet they were overly pious that they were missing the point. Speaker 1 00:19:10 And this, I think you kind of even related this to the restoration that maybe Israel had had before, right. As this idea of, or the grafting of these branches is that Jesus was highlighting specifically. You, you have, you have these people that are being considered outcast from like the super pious, you know, uh, the Jews basically saying, oh, we don't wanna have anything to do with these people because they've intermingled and mixed or whatever. And Jesus is saying, once again, like, bro, they're the ones doing it, right? Yeah. Like, or at least in this situation. Speaker 2 00:19:46 Well, look at the look at the parable of the prodigal sun, right? Maybe it's not a parable of a single prodigal sun. Maybe it's a parable of two prodigal sons because you have that sun, that first goes off to the world and, and think of this parable now, in context of what we know about Israel being scattered versus Judah being scattered, Israel's the first to go in the north and they're going out into the world like this, this young man. And they're going out into the world in a very humbling circumstance. They're being bitten, beaten down defiled, defiled, humiliated he's out there eating with the pigs. And it's significant that he's eating with the pigs because pigs were considered unclean unclean, right? So he is in with the Gentiles, unclean. Israel is being scattered out there and, and the re the restoration of Israel, it's not this clear, clean sending the people back into Jerusalem. Speaker 2 00:20:43 It's this gathering of these Gentiles in to Israel to worship the Lord. That's bringing these outsiders in. Think back again on the story of Elijah, who was a prophet in the north and, and the widow that was taking care of him. Think of the story of Ruth who's brought into Israel because of her marriage in Boaz and find strength in unity, in Israel, coming from the outside, uh, think of rehab from Jericho. This theme is a very prominent theme. And as this outsider finds healing, being brought back into the land of Israel and finds the Lord and discovers him. Now you have a jealous brother to the south. Who's looking at it and cannot accept him because of where he's been and what he's done. And so you Speaker 1 00:21:28 Have, doesn't realize that in, in that moment, he is rebelling himself to Speaker 2 00:21:34 Yes, Speaker 1 00:21:36 And he himself is sinning by not taking the example of the father and opening with welcome arms, the restoration. Speaker 2 00:21:47 And the way he's lost is very different from the way that the first one is lost. I, I don't know. I, I wonder if you take a look at some of Christ's parables, if you don't see a different perspective, just based on the history of Israel, themselves, and, and this kind of sibling rivalry, you see it play out so well here in Israel, because when the Jews come back, the, the Samaritans in the north are excited to see them and reunite with them. Now, all along in Israel history, the north is fearful that they'll reunite with the south. So they create the, the golden calves in Bethel to create their own worship outside of the temple so that the people don't go down to Jerusalem and worship. And the Jews constantly cite that in the Bible as a stumbling block, in an air, they say he was a good king, but he caused the people to sin in the way of his father talking specifically about this, this, this worship in Bethel with the golden calves. Speaker 2 00:22:47 So they keep saying they can't get over the fact that they, they, they kept worshiping falsely in Bethel. They kept worshiping falsely in Bethel. They kept worshiping falsely in Bethel. Now the Jews come back and here comes the north, and they're willing to throw aside that worshiping in Bethel and, and get behind the Jews to worship correctly in Jerusalem. Like we, we will leave our ways and join with you. Let's reunite with you. Isn't that what the entire Bible you're hoping to see? Yes. Is this reuniting not only is the restoration of Judah into Jerusalem, but the reuniting of the fractured north and the fractured south into one whole house of Israel. It's what you want to see. And they come and they say, let us help you let us build a temple. And the Jews say, no, we don't want you. We don't want your help. And, and you see that, Speaker 1 00:23:38 Well, look at that parable again. Then now look at the parable of the good Samaritan again, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>, it's like you have, you have the humble repentant son coming back, the prodigal son. Yes. It's prodigal son. I mean, coming back and saying, I'm in I've, I've fixed. I've been humbled. I, and, and the father's going sweet and the other brother's going well, we don't really, I don't really want, I don't really want this party. Speaker 2 00:24:05 <laugh> you don't deserve this. Speaker 1 00:24:06 You don't deserve why, why would they deserve this party? Why would they deserve all the things that I am entitled to? Speaker 2 00:24:13 And, and I know, I know, I know we're gonna get a lot of kickback on this and push back. I mean, this is my perspective, as I'm reading this, I'm not trying to state this as as fact, this is how I see it. And, and I know that people are gonna look at that and say, well, but the Bible writers are saying, these people were wicked in the north, but I want you to remember who wrote Speaker 1 00:24:32 Yes. Who wrote the Speaker 2 00:24:33 Bible? And, and this is, and how Speaker 1 00:24:35 Did Jesus feel about them while he was on earth? Speaker 2 00:24:37 These are the scribes, these are the scribes. And, and he calls out the scribes, right? And, and he calls him out, cuz even hundreds of years later, when Christ comes the same idea, like you scribes, you Pharisees, you think you're better than everybody else, but you at excluding, everybody else are missing the point. Like you think you're more righteous, but you're, you're, you're, you're missing something. Speaker 1 00:25:05 I think that that's, I think that that's so important that it's worth stating again, is that yes. The old Testament that we read was written by people and we know how those people felt about the, the other houses up in the north. And you have to at least consider that bias when you read these scriptures. Speaker 2 00:25:27 Yeah. Understand the scriptures and the context in which they are given and understand that these same scribes that are recording these scriptures and are the same scribes here. We're talking about the Christ was calling out yes. In the new Testament. Okay. It's not that these people are perfect. And I love how Brigham young says it when he is talking about the Bible and they ask it, do you believe every word, the Bible? And he says, I believe that the word of Bible contains or excuse me, the, I believe that the Bible contains the word of God. The words of devil, the words of strange men, IOUs man, wicked man. And the words of an ass when he's correcting a prophet down the, down the road. <laugh> so Speaker 1 00:26:00 <laugh>, that's right. That's Speaker 2 00:26:02 Amazing. And, and, and I, I hope I paraphrase that close enough to, to Speaker 1 00:26:06 The actual Speaker 2 00:26:07 Quote. That's great. Speaker 2 00:26:08 The Bible is what it is and it doesn't purport to be some infallible. Perfect work. In fact, I can't wait till we get to Psalms and you'll see missing verses that we've been able to find and restore and understand that people are putting their, their perspective, their take you're. You're getting, like when we talked about Manasa, you're getting a very bad flavoring of who the king is, but not a lot of description as to why they feel that way or what his acts are. You're seeing a lot of judgment without a lot of reasoning or, or proof explanation or so we're having to take a lot of people's word for it. It's it's not perfect. It, we just have to understand what it is and what can we learn from it. And, and what do we learn from it is I see this pattern of Israel's restoration, preceding Judah's restoration, then Israel's restoration consisting of all of these nations being brought in. Speaker 2 00:27:04 It makes me wonder if in the last days after apostacy, again, that we shouldn't expect to see that same pattern, that the Lord is going to be bringing all of these different nations into the house of Israel first, and then following the restoration of these 10 tribes, a a as you will, Israel from the north, you're going to be getting the restoration of Judah and you don't have two separate restorations, not the idea that Judah has to become Israel or the Israel has to become Judah. There's two separate nations here being restored, maybe in two separate different ways. The, and, and after you have the restoration of all of these different nations and kingdoms coming to Christ and learning of his ways and following the, the, the Messiah and becoming his people, what do they do? They turn around and they consecrate dedicate this land of Israel for the restoration of Judah and their people. And the Jews are able to gather and restore here in this land and, and the Amity between Judah and Efram has to cease. And, and you've gotta realize the Christians and the Jews are not two different nations chasing two different gods. They are one people that need to stop hating each other and come together. Speaker 2 00:28:23 Amen, brother, it's it's good stuff. Yeah. It's a, it's a powerful thing. And, and I think we can learn. I think we can even apply what we're learning with, with Judah's hesitancy in embracing or accepting this, this new Israel in the north with today's world in, in inclusivity or accepting people that are different from us. Uh, this idea that who is us are, are we drawing lines between us and them and them and us, and, and, and trying to push people away and repel people because they're different. What are we doing? What, what, what fears are keeping us from embracing each other and, and becoming one people, because really isn't that the whole point of Zion to be of one heart and one mind not to have an us and a them. And they're wicked because of this. And they're thinking that we are wicked because of that. Speaker 2 00:29:23 And, and we just keep stoning each other and coming to this idea that, that there has to be these hard lines and you have to take a stance. And it has to be this that we, we become more and more divisive, more and more hateful, more and more divided, more and more split versus unifying and, and finding ways to include people. And, and I, and I wanna be careful with that because inclusivity, I think is, is, is being taken and taught to a very different extreme that, that maybe at some point we, we get leery of it and, and scared of it and, and wanna run away from it. But really we should be embracing it for what it is and understanding that we do need to make sure people feel welcome and, and that they have a home. And really all people are God's people. And how, how do we find a way to make this work for everyone? Sweet. Speaker 1 00:30:14 Let's keep going. Speaker 2 00:30:15 Okay. I, I do like, and you pointed this out Nate, as we were coming down here. And, and I think there's some significance to this, the order and how this restoration occurs when we're talking about Judah specifically, and how Judah comes back into their inheritance. Uh, first you have the temple that needs to be built and restored. And, and there was going back to this, this, this rift. I wonder if it would've been a lot faster, a lot easier had they worked together, but because they were so divisive and pushing away now, all of a sudden these people are going back to the king and creating the strife and it, it elongates the whole process. But to get back to the point, the process had to be concluded. First, you had to build the temple when the temple gets finished. Now you have to work on the people themselves, cuz as Ezra points out, he noticed that the people are, are starting to intermarry with the Canaanites and starting to adopt the Canaanite practices. Speaker 2 00:31:15 And isn't this, the kettle calling the pop black. Totally. It is how, how, how hypocritical and, and in, in case you're, you're thinking that that I'm being overly harsh on the scribes at this time in the south kingdom. And you say the Jews couldn't accept outside help because they're Gentiles and that would've defiled them. Why then did the Jews accept, help from Persia? Why were they okay with the king of Persia, writing the checks and, and giving them gold and giving them tribute and providing 'em with all of the financial support from these Gentile nations, but not from, from Israel, right? It's anyhow, the, the people themselves find themselves in these same similar patterns of what you see in the Northern kingdom. ASRA says, we've got to make ourselves more holy than this. And so the second stage of this restoration, as you've pointed out, Nate is restoring the people to a wholeness. First, we restored the temple. Now we're restoring the people. And when that finishes, we go into the book of Illa and he is restoring the city now as a whole building the city wall around the city. And, and as we're talking about this, Nate, um, you had some great insight on this. Maybe, maybe you want to take it from here or what do you think the significance of this order is? Speaker 1 00:32:31 It's funny, cuz like I was telling you in the car I'm, I'm St I'm. I can see the, kind of the outline of how I'm seeing this in my brain, but I I'm definitely still trying to fully form the, the point. But I think that, I think that it's pretty obvious. At least if you look at those things kind of from a big picture standpoint of what in our lives, um, in what order do we need to be making things right. Or making things whole right. And I did think that it's, it's important that the first thing that they needed to make sure is that they have a place to worship and to, to do their sacred ordinances. And so that God, I guess, can be with them on earth again, right? The house of God on earth. The second house that needs to be made in order was their own personal house and their personal relationship with God, right. Speaker 1 00:33:21 Their, their personal, um, worthiness. And then at that point, moving out from there, building the walls to protect the city. And, and I guess my, my thought was, if you do that in the reverse order, it's, it's like trying to build a stable house, starting with the roof, working down towards the foundation. Right. Is that, is that it doesn't matter if you have really big, strong walls around your city, if you don't have God's protection, if you aren't right with God, if God can't be there on earth with you, you are, are putting a bandaid on, you know what I mean? Like a deep, deep wound, your, your arms been chopped off and you're trying to put a bandaid on it, right? Is that, yes, it might temporarily protect you from some outside forces, but without God's support, you will always be vulnerable to the attacks outside. Speaker 1 00:34:17 Right. And I look at this even just from a personal standpoint of like, where do we, where are we building? Where are we building our foundation? Are we starting with our covenants? Are we starting with the temple? Are we starting with the, the promises we've made to God? And from there going, okay, that, that is my starting foundation point. Now, personally, what am I doing to become sanctified or become more wholly as a person and, and not who, even as the, the word H O L Y but w H O L right. To become more holy and put together Speaker 2 00:34:57 Complete whole Speaker 1 00:34:58 Complete. That's what I'm saying. Complete, complete that. And, and then from there now, now that you've, now that you've built the correct foundation, then what am I doing to help shore up and protect those around me? And I just think that I, I don't, I don't think that there's, I don't think that that's by chance that that's the, that's the order in which things were restored. Speaker 2 00:35:18 Yeah. I, I, I love what you said there, and I don't think that can be stated enough, but you can almost see here priorities too. Like put God first, then put your fellow man and your relationship with man. And ultimately God's people will follow because if you're putting God for first and you're treating people the way you should, Zion's going to follow that. You will establish a people, you E that inevitably that's going to follow and you're gonna build that. Speaker 1 00:35:50 Yep. That's that was my thought. At least as I was kind of reading through that, I, I kind of, that was something that jumped out at me Speaker 2 00:35:57 And, and I'd say, I, I remember doing the, the life saving mirror badge as a kid and, and Scouts, Speaker 1 00:36:01 Right? Yeah, that's Speaker 2 00:36:02 Right. And, and that's one of the things they, they teach you is you you've gotta save somebody from a position of strength. You, you, don't the last thing you wanna do is jump in the water with them. Speaker 1 00:36:13 Yeah, exactly. Speaker 2 00:36:14 Because then if they're drowning and they latch onto you, then potentially now you're both Speaker 1 00:36:17 Drowning. You're both just gonna drown. Speaker 2 00:36:19 If you can, from the side, reach a pull out and get them, or what, what can you do to first save yourself? You see the same thing with airlines, right? Make sure the parents put the oxygen mask on them first, make sure they're in a good position to where they can help others because they're not gonna do anyone any good. If now all of a sudden they're, they're struggling, cuz what kid is gonna be able to help the adult. Speaker 1 00:36:38 Right. And then take that the one step further than symbolic symbolically with this story, which is, is like who, who has the ultimate power to help? Who, you know what I mean, in, in any circumstance who has the ultimate, who has the ultimate position of power to be able to help you is God, Speaker 2 00:36:56 Make sure you're anchored in him Speaker 1 00:36:57 For that's. Exactly right. Is, is make sure that make sure that you are, make sure that you are giving yourself the best chance of survival by preparing a place for God to dwell among you here on earth, whether literally in this case or, or, or metaphorically, make sure that that's, that's truly your anchor because that's the ultimate power position to save us from wherever we are. Speaker 2 00:37:21 Yeah. Could you imagine climbing a mountain and, and having a partner that you're climbing with and, and seeing them struggle or fall and, and rather than setting an anchor first to make sure you're in a good spot and anchor to that wall to be able to reach out and help them go out and help them. Now, both of you are falling, Speaker 1 00:37:38 Both of you were just falling Speaker 2 00:37:39 Off because you didn't set and, and taking that to a modern application. I mean, you see that in doctrine covenants, when it says seek first to obtain my word yes. Then you'll, you'll be called to preach my word. You're you're, you're not called to preach yet. Obtain that word first, then go out and preach. Speaker 1 00:37:55 Well, I think even just from a very modern setting too, like, and, and, and this is kind of maybe just some real world stuff that maybe is only anecdotal for me, but I feel like is pretty common in our culture and in our world. And that is we, we get so we can, and, and in some cases rightfully so we get really hurt when we have friends or family that maybe leave the church or that turn their back on the faith or whatever that is for whatever their personal reasons are. And, and, and no, I'm not gonna judge that at all. Right. Um, for their personal reasons. But if, if we truly are going, Hey, we want to be able to be there in case they, they need, they want to come back eventually or whatever that is. It's like for us to be able to be in a position to where we can truly be an example and hopefully still a lighthouse in one way or another, for those seeking to come closer to God. Speaker 1 00:38:57 It's if we, if we spend all of our time going out and trying to, I don't know, convince everybody's like, no, please stay, please stay, please stay. The reality is, is that you are going to be bombarded with a lot of the, um, information or the things that, that convinced them to leave naturally. Right. They'll wanna talk about that. And if you are not in a secure place, that can be tough and I'm speaking for personal experience. That can be tough. Yeah. And, and maybe the point in this more than anything is first and foremost, make sure you are where you need to be with God, wherever that is. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna put that on you. I'm speaking for myself here. And this is kind of what really helped me really be at peace with a lot of friends and family choosing not only to leave, you know, the faith that I deeply believe in, but then be very, um, you know, um, vocal critics of it and very, you know what I mean, like very antagonistic and that's tough. Speaker 1 00:40:12 And I, for the longest time that that could really bring me down and hurt me. And I, I had to ask myself, why is this affecting me so much when a friend or family leaves? And I had to admit, well it's because whether they're saying it or not, they're challenging your faith, man. They're, they're in they're in one way or another saying what you believe is wrong, Nate. And that's a hard thing to hear it is. And, and it was the beginning of a really incredible process for me, which then went, okay. I mean, I, I have believed these things for a long time, but have I really gone and really combed through my faith and foundation and gone get rid of the clutter, get rid of the culture, get rid of the dogma, start at the beginning. Where do I believe are you, and if there's any part of that foundation that isn't secure shore that up because, because that's first and foremost, what's, what's the most important for, for you and your personal salvation. Speaker 1 00:41:20 And from there build outward and it completely changed. I mean, truly like everything. And, and again, like I still, again, of course we all do. We have friends and family that continue to be on their own paths or wherever they are. And some again, directly challenging what I believe. And instead of getting so depressed and, and confused and worked up over that, it's just calm and peacefulness and, and love and truly like acceptance and inclusivity of which is like, Hey, wherever you are, please just be happy wherever you are on this journey. Please just be happy because I know I am, and I know where I'm at. And, and just like you probably, no matter what you say to me, isn't gonna change that at this point, because I've spent the time that I have needed to. And so, anyways, I guess I think that maybe that's why this jumped out too is just cause of how personal a lot of this really like personal interaction. I mean, this is truly what as member of the church, this is life. This is what our life is. You know, Speaker 2 00:42:28 That's a powerful message. And, and to think it comes from a section of scriptures where, where really you see a lot of bickering about the temple and can you build it and, and they start accusing 'em well, they don't have a right. And it, it gets kind of almost funny, hilarious how, how they're like, well, these guys have a history of rebellion. You should really look at the annals and, and understand that these people are, and, and, and the king of, uh, the king of Persian knows what they're up to. That's why he puts them in charge of, of, of putting a stop to it. He doesn't want to get involved. You're gonna squalor you, you get involved. I'm not gonna get dirty on this. Yeah, Speaker 1 00:43:03 Exactly. Speaker 2 00:43:04 But, but just such a weird passage of all that, but then to, to come away with that profound takeaway, Nate, thank you. I that's. Yeah, for sure. That's, that's, that's great. And, and I think it stands also, not just with what you said, but as a testimony that God is the same today, yesterday and forever. When you look at the restoration of, of Israel today, you look at God calling a prophet. Again, you look at God restoring Israel and bringing them back here in the earth. And, and what's the first thing in the restoration of the gospel that God commands them to do. And, and Joseph Smith says the, the, the purpose of any gathering is to build a temple. Speaker 1 00:43:44 That's right. That's, that's a great point. You, Speaker 2 00:43:47 You look at the history of the church and you're like, these people don't have anything. And yet they're asked to sacrifice everything to build a nav temple. Why didn't they wait until they get established as a people first and then build a temple? That's Speaker 1 00:43:59 A, this is a fantastic relation to modern. I mean, to our modern restoration. Speaker 2 00:44:04 Yeah. And their temples, they lose 'em, they lose the Navajo temple, they lose the Curtland temple. And yet God asked them to build that first to show that relationship, that dedication to build that first. And then the people went through a refining fire, and the people had to go through the, the trials that they went through, the, the crossing of the planes and all the things that, that really sealed them as a people. And, and they went through that refining fire. And then you get this Zion society that starts to rise up out of the dust and the, and, and the, the city walls, if you will, this idea of a, a nation of people, uh, uh, that, that dot the earth and that kind of grow and become a people. So you see that same pattern, Speaker 1 00:44:45 And then they, and then they eventually move out west where they can very, they can actually very physically begin to protect themselves as a people, Speaker 2 00:44:55 The, the, the forts that they build and the that's right. And the protection that they have and the start Speaker 1 00:44:59 And the numbers begin. Exactly. Speaker 2 00:45:01 Yeah. Zion follows after you've, after you've built the temple after you've built the people, then that, that follows, Speaker 1 00:45:09 This is great. Anything else with this? Or should we keep moving? Speaker 2 00:45:12 Um, last, last point on this, when you look Atilla and you see what he's going through and the plots for his life and how he's gotta hide and kind of conceal himself. And as they're building, you know, building with one, one arm armed while the, the other one's constructing and whatnot, and, and you see this, anytime you have a big change like this, this restoration of, of Judah, you expect to see this kind of adversity, as we're talking about God being the same, and maybe even people being the same, what NAIA goes through through the restoration and, and what the, these people go through the hell they go through, could you expect it to be any different? It reminded me so much of the Christians. When you look at them having to keep the doors closed on Sunday, when they met, because of the fear for the Jews, this, this minority people that were persecuted, and, and you look at Christ being taken and crucified, and the apostles being killed, you would expect then as you see this pattern of restoration from them coming back to, to Jerusalem after Babylon, to Christ coming and bringing a restoration in his time and, and creating the apostles in the gospel. Speaker 2 00:46:30 If I were to look for a restoration in modern times, I would expect to see a minority people that they're not embraced by the world. A minority people that are, are fearful that have to shelter, that their leaders being persecuted to the point of death, where you see the martyrdom of Joseph Smith, this pattern fits so well with what you see in biblical precedence, in the new Testament and in the old Testament. So I love to see that cohesiveness play its way throughout all of history. Speaker 1 00:47:00 Amazing. Let's keep going. Speaker 2 00:47:01 Okay. I'm, I'm wondering where else we want to go with this. Speaker 1 00:47:08 I mean, those are the things for me that I got the most out of this. I, I don't think that anybody listening's gonna be like too upset if we don't, you know, blow past sixties past 60 something minutes. But I mean, if there's any other like, major, um, topics that you want to talk about, I think that, you know, we have time to do it, but also, you know, wherever you're at Jason. Speaker 2 00:47:30 Yeah. I, at, at this point in the podcast, I, I, I can see maybe one or two things small, just kind of highlight and wrap it up. Yeah. Let's do it. Uh, one being the, the, the savvy of, of the people when they're, when they're being afflicted by, by the Samaritans in the north, and, and later all these other people that are saying you can't rebuild these walls and they keep going back to the king of, of, of, um, Persia and, and saying these people can't, and, and the King's kind of waffling how they handle that pressure because they could go and they could wage more against the Samaritans, or they could go and they could push back and fight, and they could make their situation even worse. But to sit and write these letters back to the king in a very eloquent, well stated way and appeal to the powers that be, and say, look, king, I understand this perspective. Speaker 2 00:48:24 And what's being, being said, but search the records. And you'll see whats, um, Cyrus said when he ordered us and the commandments that he made and, and kind of go back and, and make a claim and, and, and be able to justify their means through the legal methods that, that existed, right? They, they, you see that with, with, with a modern day, the persecution of Joseph Smith is as they went to the governors and the local leaders and the president ultimately of the United States and wrote their letters and tried to not rebel and incite chaos or anarchy, or not say, you know what, forget all of you were God's people, and God's gonna deliver us and go to war with everyone, but try to work within the system that you have. And it, it can be a, a frustrating system, but the way they were patient and worked through that, I don't know. It was kind of impressive to me. What else? Last point, uh, the genealogies is a very Bega begats for, for, yeah, baby. Speaker 2 00:49:27 It plays a very significant role when they're coming back. And, and on the one hand, we look at this piousness and saying, I don't know, but on the other hand for priests to be able to officiate, they had to prove that they were through that line. And if there was anything wrong with the paperwork or any holes or anything missing, and they weren't careful in keeping their genealogy, they, they were, they were, they lost out on the priest, did they couldn't hold it anymore. And, and I think we can see some of the significance that genealogy had. At least in this time, it was very weighty for this people, extremely important genealogy. Isn't just something that is important in, in recent times, but this has always been something very critical. Even that's your point, Nate, going back early on Genesis five in our first Bette episode, BGAs has been, it's important to know where you came from. It's important to, to create that link and that understanding and try to unite rather than divide, even in a historical sense. Speaker 1 00:50:33 And we do care about priesthood lineage. Speaker 2 00:50:37 Absolutely. Speaker 1 00:50:37 That's that's, that's not something that a man can just take upon himself. Speaker 2 00:50:41 You don't want to falsify the records. You you've gotta be able to clearly outline where that came from. And it's got to the branch does not blossom if it's not tied to Christ. Speaker 1 00:50:53 Love it. Speaker 2 00:50:54 Okay. That's all I got. Speaker 1 00:50:55 What do we got next week? Speaker 2 00:50:57 Next week? We're gonna be talking about Speaker 1 00:50:59 Esther. Yeah, baby. We knew what we were talking about next week. Woo. All right. Well then until next week, Mordecai, Speaker 2 00:51:06 See you.