Mormon 7 - 9

[00:00:16] Speaker A: Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the Add On Education Network. I am your host. Oh, man, did I just skip it? [00:00:23] Speaker B: I skipped it. What? [00:00:25] Speaker A: The podcast where we take a look at the weekly Come follow me discussion and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here with our friend and this show's producer, Nate Piper. [00:00:39] Speaker B: Yes, it is me. It is your friend and this show's producer. [00:00:45] Speaker A: That is correct. [00:00:46] Speaker B: What's up, buddy? [00:00:47] Speaker A: Y'all. The. Your plural, y'all. [00:00:50] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. [00:00:52] Speaker A: Should. We should adapt a U all to separate between the U singular and the U plural? There's a few things they get right in the South, I think you all. [00:01:01] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. [00:01:03] Speaker A: I don't know. That's not a bill. I want to die. [00:01:06] Speaker B: I was born in Houston. Houston. I am Texas born. And occasionally still get the chance to go back and visit for work and things. But I will say this about that. You know how sometimes you're watching those, like, do you ever have the thing where it's like you have insomnia or you're just having a hard time sleeping, or you're just sick and you're kind of. Or you have a child that's sick, you're up in the middle of the night and you turn on Cold Case? Do you ever watch Cold Case or like. Or like the Forensic Files? Have you ever heard of Forensic Files? [00:01:41] Speaker A: I've heard of it. I've heard of it. [00:01:42] Speaker B: So basically, it's like, it's a. You know, it looks so old. It looks. The production of it honestly looks like it's mid-90s. And I do think that they made them in, like 2000, so it shouldn't look as terrible. But every case is like, so and so went home and didn't realize that what they would find would be the last or whatever. And they get killed by something, and then they. And then the. The. The deputies have to use forensic evidence to put them away. And I swear, man, I swear the sheriff is always from somewhere in, like, Louisiana. And they're always just like, sheriff, Sheriff Billy. Sheriff Billy Bobob with his, like, three doctorate degrees and whatever. And you're just like, oh, yeah. And this dude gets on. He's like, yeah, well, we took a look at the evidence and kind of realized something wasn't going on quite right here. And I think to myself, I can't. It's just. There's a disconnect here, man. Like, I'm looking at this dude and I'm like, he looks insanely intelligent. Clearly he has three master's degree and solved this thing because they found, you know, the dude's chapstick underneath a bush out in the front yard and used the forensic evidence to kill this dude. But then when I hear that dude talk, I'm like, there's just a disconnect there at times, man. That's all I'm saying. I can say that I'm from the South. Ish. Houston's. Technically, the south, right? Is Houston. [00:03:12] Speaker A: But how long, how long did you actually stay there, being born there and raised two different things? [00:03:17] Speaker B: Listen, I don't want to get into that because it kind of blows up the point that I'm trying to make. Here's what's crazy is like when women have like the Southern bell accent, it's like a dog. Adorable, man. It's charming. It's just, it's like, it's just. It's cute as a button, man. But then when Sheriff Billy Bob talks with that accent, I go, bro, what's. What's up, man? Feel like you should be commentating on college football game day or something like that. But definitely not the one that's out doing forensic research and trying to discover who it was that killed somebody because you found a water ballooned that once bounced off the side of their head and ended up under a motorcycle tire or whatever. [00:04:07] Speaker A: That's interesting. The prejudices that we kind of build. [00:04:10] Speaker B: I know that's my bad, but dude, I'm, I'm. I was born in Houston and Houston is technically part of the South. Let's just leave it at that. Jason, what are we talking about tonight, buddy? [00:04:21] Speaker A: We're finishing the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon. That sounds funny. [00:04:24] Speaker B: It's been blowing my kids mind. This whole time we've been trying to figure this out. The Book of Mormon in the Book of Mormon. [00:04:30] Speaker A: But yes, yeah, we're finishing the Book of Mormon, but not the Book of Mormon. Big. The Book of Mormon. Little. The little Book of Mormon Little. Little Book the seven through nine. And you know, Mormon is, is kind of concluding things and putting some serious wisdom out there. And he's. He's. He's speaking through the ages to us. And he intentionally phrases it that way, like, hey, I. This is a lost cause. My people are gone. They're. To take the words from Mission Impossible. They're dead. They're all dead. He. He can't be talking just to them. He has focused his attention to what do I think they will appreciate down the road and, and you know, I guess breaking the fourth Wall, if you will, in the Book of Mormon to, to try to give us some advice. And so these are powerful chapter can read it and we can try to take a lot of meaning from it. Chapter nine. It's where we're going to end today and where we're going to land really goes into is God dead? And miracles. And when I say is God dead? I think a lot of questions people have had is a lot of religion. I think for a long time taught that the seven the heavens are sealed. God's already said everything he's going to say, he's done everything he's going to do that the clock has been wound and we're just running things out and we've got to go and read his word, but don't believe that he actually talks to us or interacts with us and miracles aren't happening. And we see from a reformation to a restoration to where we are today. You know the song that the day dawn is breaking and the sun's coming up and the earth is starting to thaw and miracles are starting to happen. And Mormon is seeing and describing and talking about some really powerful things that on a global scale we can resonate with. But on a personal scale in our own life, I think often we start to doubt that God is their individual. On a personal level, does he really hear my prayers? I mean we've got a song about that. Are you really there? And do you hear and answer every child's prayer? [00:06:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:57] Speaker A: And so I think when we, when we go to the dismount of this week's Come Follow me lesson, we get to talk about some really important things that are going to resonate with us on a global level, on a national level, and on a very personal, individual level is where I, where I think we end. But rather than start from the end and work to the beginning, I think I want to dive into chapter seven. Just look at a few things that Mormon says when he starts speaking to us. Right in verse one. And now behold, I speak somewhat unto the remnant of this people who are spared, if it so be, that God may give them my words, that they may know of the things of their fathers. I speak unto you a remnant of the House of Israel. And these are the words which I speak. And the very first thing that he is going to say to us, to the survivors, to whoever's left, to who gets the Book of Mormon and reads it today, know ye that you are of the House of Israel. And, and that's important of all the things he could say and lead off first, know that Christ lives. Know that he's been resurrected. Know this. He starts with, know your roots, where you came from and the covenant that you've made with God. And, and I think that's a powerful place to start. He. He says in verse 5, Know ye that you must come to the knowledge of your fathers. And, and so when I, when I look at that, it can be taken one of two ways, and maybe it's exactly both. When you're saying, come to the knowledge of your fathers in context of, know that you are the house of Israel. It's the hearts of the children turning to the fathers, the hearts of the fathers turning the children. It's looking back from the pit, from once you're dug, to Abraham, your father, to the covenant that God established with him, to what it means to actually be called Israel. Thinking about the wrestle that Jacob had with God and understanding the context of what it actually means to follow God. Because God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, God wrestled with Jacob the entire night. What does it mean to be Israel? And sometimes it means that it feels like God is your enemy, that he has forsaken you, that things are not always going your way, and yet you still find something within you to hold on to, believe, to make it through that. And God shows you the light, and God delivers you, and like the end with Job, validates your belief. Those who wait on the Lord blessed and go to the book of Revelation, and all the blessings pronounced are for those that one, overcome the importance of overcoming and two, waiting on the Lord, waiting for him to. To validate that it was worth holding on to. So in one sense, I see the knowledge of your fathers in looking back to the past and understanding what it means to be his people. But in another sense, the knowledge of your fathers, not knowing them, but knowing what they knew, the knowledge of your fathers in what they believed, the covenants they made. And I think that's the bridge is verse five, because it's almost chiastic in this. Chiastic's not the right word, Janus, in that it's looking back to where you came, who they were, your history, but it's also bridging it to what they knew, what was in their minds. Repent of all your sins and believe that Jesus is the Christ, he is the son of God, that he was slain by the Jews, and the power of the Father hath risen again. That's what they knew. The knowledge of your fathers know what they knew. And so it's taking it from this familiarity with Them and what it means to be that to what they understood, you need to understand as well. And I think understanding our forefathers, to best understand them, I think we need context. What did they understand? Why did they do what they did? Why were they willing? Why was Jacob willing to hold on when his thigh was dislocated? He was in extreme pain. Why was Abraham willing to take his son and sacrifice him when we know what they know? I think that arms us with the ability to act like they acted. So I think Mormon starts this off with a lot of power behind what he's saying. [00:11:44] Speaker B: Love it. [00:11:47] Speaker A: There's something in here, too, that I wanted to kind of pull up with you right after he says, know that you were the House of Israel. And we talked about what it means, kind of thinking about your roots. He also says in verse four, know that you must lay down your weapons of war and delight no more in the shedding of blood, and take them not up again. Save it, beast, that God shall command you. And I think we look at this and we see Ammon and his people, the Lamanites, when they were converted, and they dig the massive hole and they throw their weapons in and they bury it and they move on. And it's a powerful story. And when we look at what he's saying, he's coming from a time we just described the Lamanites wiping out the entire population of the Nephites. And not only that, when they ran out of Nephites to kill, Mormon says, they turned on themselves. And there was a lot of infighting and there was a lot of fighting even within the Lamanites hunting and fighting, the Lamanites descending into chaos, which is something that go back to the story of Ammon. There was a lot of bloodshed and death and wars even within the Lamanite nation that we don't necessarily read about, understand. We. We look at the history of peoples throughout the world, and there's a lot of wars. So when he says, you need to put down your weapons and stop fighting each other or stop fighting, period, we might look at that and say, okay, that. That doesn't apply so much now, because now they're not man. I'm not saying this right either. Where's the application in that for me today? And maybe I look at this and say, well, I'm not like the Lamanites and picking up my sword and running out and slaying somebody. And I don't feel like we're all forced into an army. And annually we do this exercise where we go out and we kill everyone. And so we look at this and say, man, Mormon, what were you talking about? Because the time the Book of Mormon comes out and we start reading about this, that doesn't feel like it's the same time that you're living where you're constantly being hunted by the Lamanites and killing them. Yet you're telling us today, in our time, we need to lay down our weapons of war and we can look at this as a global scale. Yes. Wouldn't we like to see a lot more peace in the world? And what happens if we stop fighting? Does that not mean somebody else is going to take advantage? And so I need to. And then, I don't know, we start getting into politics and the global and the national level. What does this mean? But when we're talking about this, I think Mormon is talking deeply on a personal level, we need to give up our weapons of war. And so as I read this verse and I started thinking about what's Mormon talking about? Why is it important enough for him to mention it? What does it mean to me? The key phrase or the word that stood out to me is actually the right after the comma and delight no more in the shedding of blood. And you're like, wait a second, it's not just taking your weapons of war. The delight that's happening in there and our instruments of war today have changed for the common person, for people living all over the world. Most of the time our weapons of war, I would say, is not going to be the scimitar, the sword, the bow, the arrow, the ax, the, whatever the case may be, but the words that we use to hurt people. And when he talks about delighting no more in the shedding of blood, I think that there are people that cannot wait to take that shot at somebody else to try to rub it in and say this is, or this is, or I don't know, stoke that division that hates. And in a, in a violent narrative, am I, am I wandering in some weird space on this? [00:16:05] Speaker B: Okay, look, I'm Only taking a 24 hour victory lap on social media. I'll calm down by tomorrow. [00:16:17] Speaker A: I'm not, I'm, I'm not pointing at. [00:16:18] Speaker B: You name and I deserve it. And I deserve it. Yes, you are, and I deserve it. But I'm taking a 24 hour victory lap and then I will calm back down and put away my weapons of war and stop delighting in the shedding of social blood. But I'm going to take the full 24 hours is all I'm saying. I'm going to take the full 24 hours, Jason, and then I will repent. [00:16:54] Speaker A: I didn't want to. [00:16:56] Speaker B: I do want to repent. I think I'll repent. Look, okay, I might have extended it to 48 hours, but I'm. As soon as I'm done, I'm going to calm back down. I'm going to be nice. But I will say this about that there is something. First of all, I understand that this scripture applies very, yes, very aptly to a lot of things, especially in a modern world. But also, there's been times that we're told to pick up our weapons and go to war, too, man. I don't know. I'm just saying, like, I think that it is. You nailed it. When it's the delighting of the shedding of blood is what is the definer there, right? That is the key. And yes, I absolutely find myself guilty of that on a regular basis, and I need to repent of that and be better about that. But what I will say is that there are times where I think, and you see this as well in the public sphere where it's like you were told, hey, you need to go build a bridge at whatever the cost. I'm like, well, no, I don't believe that. I don't think that we're told to go hold hands with evil ideas or with evil thoughts in an attempt to build a bridge with that. I think that there are certain ideas and that there are certain people that we need to reject outright and at least if they are unwilling to move off of things that are destructive and evil and that we should. And ideas that we should absolutely fight against and fortify our families against. And so, yeah, if you look through the scriptures, there were times where people were told to put their weapons down, and then there were times where people were told that, I mean, look at Captain Moroni. I mean, that it's like whenever I feel like if I'm. If I am fighting in a situation I shouldn't be fighting at, I look at what was written on that title of liberty, and I'm like, that's a fairly. That's a fairly comprehensive list of the things that I still think are worth fighting for and are worth picking up our weapons for. And so, yeah, it is. No, I'm just saying you're right. It's the, hey, we need to chill and stop delighting in the shedding of blood. And yes, that does apply. And yes, I am absolutely guilty of that. And after 48 hours, I'm going to repent and not be. [00:19:44] Speaker A: Let me, let me ask you this question. Does it hit different given the context of who's saying it? And here's what I mean by that. If this was written by one of the anti Nephi Lehis, who literally buried their sword and would not fight to protect themselves, their wives, their children, when the other Lamanites came to destroy them, they prostrated themselves on the earth and prayed as a pacifist and watched their friends, family, and people around them die by the sword, and yet they continued to pray and the Lord delivered them. Would it hit different having someone like that come out and give this message to us today? As opposed to Mormon who literally picked up his sword at an extremely young age to fight for a people that weren't even a righteous people, and the idea that their cause in his mind was not just, but he was willing to kill for them and for him. I mean, does it hit different given that context? How does that context, the Lord chose Mormon to say that to us today as opposed to someone else? What's the difference there? [00:21:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I do think that there is something there. Again, it just is kind of tough, man, because I don't think that this is. I don't think it's black and white other than the qualifier that you put on this, which is if you're delighting in the shed of blood. And by the way, I think that, that, I think that that would apply to people that God has told to go and pick up arms, right? It's like, you know, again, you look at the title of liberty is, you know, for our freedom and our family and our religion, right? And you look at that and you're like, that is a worthy cause to pick up a sword and defend. And I can imagine that even somebody in one of those armies, if they were just getting stoked every time they got to kill somebody, and that was just the excuse. God knows their heart. And, you know, I'm sure they were being judged. They will be judged by God, you know, whatever that means. But I think that the qualifier there is the most important part of this because I also think that there are absolutely things worth standing up for and worth defending and worth speaking up for. And I don't get the impression from this scripture that it says surrender to all bad ideas that are attacking you and coming at you. That's not what I read from that scripture. I do read the personal, hey, if, if you're using, if you're using your, you know, Your defense of. Of God and that message, if you're using that as an excuse to go and out of pleasure, fight with people, you know, and out of your own pride and ego, go and fight with people, that's a sin. And you need to figure out a better way of approaching that. That's what I get from it. [00:23:10] Speaker A: Right. And I think if we were to take the approach and say that this scripture applied to everybody needs to stop attacking and no more violence and we don't ever do anything, then we're painting Mormon as a hypocrite. A man who is willing to take his sword and fight to ultimately his death would be telling us not to do that. If that's what he was saying, then I think it breaks. I don't think we can take that interpretation. I think the context of this being said from Mormon, I think specifically he's referring to a people that as he has put together the Book of Mormon, and he has looked at their history from 400 years before Christ, 600 years before Christ, all the way down to where he is now, they've always been trying to attack. They've always been trying to shed blood. They've delighted in it. They've delighted in their wars, their wickedness. The Nephites keep trying to retire away and find distance that would be safe from them. And now even that the people are all dead, that they were trying to kill and they turn on themselves and they're killing themselves. And he looks at these people forward in time to when the Book of Mormon is going to come back. And a lot of the native inhabitants of this continent were plagued with infighting and violence. And so I think he's looking at them and applying the lessons learned from Ammon and saying, you specifically need to lay down your weapons of war. You need to stop fighting, you need to get past this, you need to change and to try to take that message in saying that you don't take up the sword to defend yourselves. When he was doing that himself, and that's how he died. And that was an important part of Nephi history for the whole time. I think we would be wrestling the scriptures and trying to interpret it the wrong way to say that's what he's saying to everybody today. I think the context of who he's addressing and what he's talking about helps fit that in there. Still, I think there's lessons that we can learn, and I think that delighting in there is key, as you've pointed out. I think having that context of Mormon and seeing how he's referring to that. And you said it beautifully in there's context to delighting in that even those who are forced to take up the sword and are out there and have to kill people for a living, that's their profession, for their country, for their duty, for whatever reason, don't take delight in that. You should never delight in destroying someone else. But it doesn't mean we shouldn't defend ourselves. And I don't think that's what Mormon's saying. And to take that and translate it back into the world today and the weapons of war that we use, I don't think we need to excuse ourselves from the dialogue. I don't think that we need to not have a voice online. And in fact, I appreciate the online community that exists. I appreciate that there are people out there willing to put their names in front of the world to defend the faith and in a sense pick up the weapons of war to try to correct misunderstandings or to try to introduce people to light and truth. If it's done in a way that I am trying to defend what's most important to me, or I am trying to bless your life and help, you know, something that has brought so much joy to my life, I think that becomes a valid thing that we use. But when it's I delight in absolutely slaying you and I'm looking for my next victim and I'm going to war over this, not because I'm defending the truth, but I'm using defending the truth as a justification to feed the delight I'm taking in slapping someone else. Then I think we can kind of cross some lines. And I'm not sitting here to try to point fingers or say this is what you're doing or who's doing what. I'm just saying, how do we take the words of Mormon knowing that he was who he was and what he lived through, and how can that apply to us today and our behavior and what we're doing and what are our weapons of warfare? If I. Yep, I like it. Let's keep going, let's move on. You know, when we talk about. Know that you're remnant of the seed of Jacob is the last verse. We've talked so much about the covenant of Abraham, I feel like it would be beating a dead horse to go over all of that again. But you know where we stand with the covenants and what God's made. I just, I just say there's a lot of value in that and I'm going to move on. I'm going to move into chapter eight. Moroni is kind of taking. Taking here with the, with the record that his fathers left him. He says he doesn't have a lot of record. Let's see. I'm trying not to sum this up. Bad verse five. Behold, my Father hath made this record and he hath written the intent thereof. And behold, I would write it also if I had room upon the plates, but I have not and or I have none, for I am alone. My Father hath been slain in battle all my kinsfolk and I have not friends nor with it to go. And how long the Lord will suffer that I might live, I know not. And, and it felt like Moroni, this was his end. We weren't going to hear much more from him. And I think he really thought this was the end of him. His dad died like you said, his friends died, the Lamanites were hunting him. He didn't think he would be alive another 10 years, 20 years, whatever long that he was going to live for. And he's wrapping it up. But all of a sudden he's able to survive this. He's able to get some time and he's able to take the record of the Jaredites and put it in there. And he's able to write even his little capstone Moroni. And thank goodness he does. And the second ending that he gives us in Moroni, beautiful scriptures, but. But it feels like here he's kind of copping out and done. And so my kids were asking me, they're like, wait a second, he's saying that he's got no. Or why doesn't he just go make some. Or why didn't he make some more plates? Or why didn't he? And ultimately he does, right? He's able to do quite a bit more. But what I helped them understand and are. Come, follow me. As we're talking about this man, we look at these guys and think their only responsibility is to create these records, write in it and whatever this guy is doing everything he can to stay alive. And when we talk about where are you going to get ore from to create plates to make this and the time that that takes. In our world today, when we look through a modern lens, I can go to the store and purchase my food, I can go and get my clothes, I can go and whatever, whatever, whatever. I don't think we understand what it's like to live in a world with no society, with no trade, with no one else helping you, no one to cook a meal for you. No one to help you with anything. This guy's number one concern is how do I stay alive? How do I keep these records from falling into the hands of the Lamanites and just trying to survive? What we're seeing are the words of a prophet in survival mode. And in survival mode, he's not able to write a lot. But then think about how valuable what he is writing is if he has no time to do it. But he still takes the time to send this message. I think understanding the context of him in survival mode and not having the time to try to make more plates or put this together or do all of these things, he's just trying to live and figure out, where do I get my clothes from, where do I get my food from, how do I avoid detection, how do I cook my food where they're not going to find me because I lit a fire, how do I just survive and where do I go and how do I live and yet still take time to write? This, I think, adds. Adds layer of understanding and value to what he's saying. Love it. We do get. I am son of the Son of Mormon. My father was a descendant of Nephi. The continuity that he does descend from Nephi, one of the beautiful things. Verse 16. Blessed is he that shall bring this delight, for it shall be brought out of darkness unto light according to the word of God. Yea, it shall be brought out of the earth, and it shall shine forth out of darkness and come unto the knowledge of the people, and it shall be done by the power of God. And if there be false, they be the faults of a man. But behold, we know no faults. Nevertheless, God knoweth all things. Therefore he that condemneth, let him be aware, lest he be in danger of hellfire. Those are powerful words. When you're looking at the record and you're like, I don't know if this is enough. You're thinking that God is saying that this is going to be important to convert people to the truth. In the latter days, it's going to be bringing millions of people to the gospel. And you're looking at this and saying, I hope it's enough. I hope that this does what the Lord wants it to do. And how much can we relate to that? When the Lord's asking us to do something and we're trying our best and we say, I hope this is enough, I know it's not perfect, and I hope that my imperfections aren't an impediment to other people coming to Christ. And he's trying his best. And he's talking about something. The faults in the Book of Mormon. We aren't aware of any, but be very careful about how you condemn it. And we've seen since the Book of Mormon's come forth, people have always been willing to point fingers and find fault in a book that otherwise is very genuine, is very sincere and honestly seeks to connect people to their roots, the covenants that they made with God, and bring people to Christ. And so reading these words to me hits hard. I appreciate them, I love them. And he cautions them. And he said, show unto me. Or if a person says show unto me or you shall be smitten, let him beware, lest he commands that which is forbidden of the Lord. For behold, the same that judgeth rashly shall be judged rashly again. For according to his word shall the wages his wages be. Therefore he that smiteth shall be smiteth again. Talking about, you know, show me the plates. If you don't show me the plates, I don't believe you. Show me that this is true. If you don't, what are we demanding from God? And I think this is going to kind of feed the discussion when we get into miracles in the next chapter. In fact, maybe let's just get to our miracles. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I don't know, maybe it's worth reading some of these things here at the end, too. [00:34:03] Speaker B: Okay, let's do it. [00:34:07] Speaker A: Here we go. I'm gonna. I'm just gonna read the end of this chapter because it's more Moroni now, speaking right through the time he's seeing the people, doubting, attacking the Book of Mormon for perceived imperfections, claiming that they need to see that this is prove that it's true. If there's no plates, then you're liars and I don't believe you. But here he's going to speak across time to us. Behold, the Lord has shown unto me great marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come at the day when these things shall come among you. Behold, I speak unto you as if you were present, and yet ye are not. For behold, Jesus Christ has shown unto me. And I know your doing. I know that you walk in the pride of your hearts. And there are none, save few only, who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts. And the wearing a very fine apparel unto envyings and strifes and malice and persecutions and all manner of iniquities. And your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts. For we hold you to love money and your substance and your fine apparel in the adorning of your churches more than you love the poor and the needy and the sick and the afflicted. O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers who sell yourselves for that which will canker. Why have you polluted the holy church of God, man? He just reaches. So when we talk about Mormons saying, don't lift your weapons of war and bury those, and we talk about words being a weapon of war, and then Moroni follows it up with this message right here is Moroni lifting a weapon of war in the modern world and saying, you guys are a bunch of hypocrites. You're prideful. Your churches are corrupt. You don't take care of the poor and censoring and condemning. And maybe this draws a much finer point on what Mormon was saying than even what you and I were trying to say, that laying down your weapon of war does not mean you don't say what you're supposed to say. And you don't shy away from helping people realize the truth. The truth needs to be established. The word needs to be out there, and we don't shy away from stating the truth. The truth must prevail, and it must come out. And I totally agree. [00:36:33] Speaker B: And I think. And I think that even then, the caveat still remains. Don't delight in the shed of blood. Take that for whatever it's worth. I'm with you. Because even in doing righteous, that's the way. Look, we talk about. You know, this is. It's good that we're having this conversation from a big picture to not just me confessing my unrighteousness about this, but we talk about how Satan, one of his best tricks is he tries to use people's good intentions to kind of wedge himself in there and then get us distracted. We talk about this with a lot of social movements, right? Of like, hey, we need to be looking out for, you know, marginalized communities and marginalized groups. And that's true. Like, we should be. You know, we're taught to. To find the needy and the poor among us and do all these things, right? But then what happens is a lot of times these causes begin to become so distracting in our lives that they almost get. They almost become the thing that removes our focus from where it should be and where sometimes our social or political causes become so much more of a guiding force for us than our faith or we become anchored in those things. And a lot of times that's How a lot of people, really good people, kind of lose their faith is that with the best of intentions, they just. Their social causes take over their focus. If we're going to talk about the reality of that, you're right. Then we also have to talk about the reality of people in their want to defend their faith or in their want to defend what they believe is right. If they use that as an excuse to become contentious and if they use that as an excuse to lose focus of what they are actually representing and instead becoming more focused on the idea of the argument involved or the debate involved, or like you said, just like kind of taking potshots and delighting in the conflict or the actions, the reactions. Right. It's like that. That can also be incredibly distracting. And that's how, just yet another way that I do think that the adversary can kind of wedge himself in and try to slowly and carefully lead people away from the focus where their focus should be. [00:39:12] Speaker A: As I was listening to what you were saying, the verse that came into my mind, the scripture was Isaiah, when he talks about beating your swords into plowshares and your weapons of war into pruning hooks. And as we're talking about words being weapons of war, it doesn't. If we take Isaiah's approach, how do we use our words as instruments of cultivation, harvest, rather than. And it's funny, because even the word harvest means to kill, right? And where's the line on that? Right. But the same instruments of war, we turn them into tools for conversion or truth, Right. When we look at what's happening out there, fake news has become such a buzzword. But it's more than a buzzword because it's rampant in both sides, everywhere, right? Someone's going to tell part of the story and they're going to leave the rest out. And because that's what's going to get the reactions. That's what's going to be more incendiary, or that's what's going to get the attention that they're looking for. How do we complete that story? Or how do we help provide context or different perspective? Or how, you know, how do we turn it from. From an echo chamber where we're just hearing one thing to did we think about this? Or how do we add to the conversation? Add to the discussion. Nate, you've been one of the biggest proponents I know of free speech and the power of freedom of speech. When somebody's out there and able to express what they think, right, wrong or other, just put it out there and Say, this is what I think it at least allows for others to be able to respond, add what they think, or add perspective or be able to build on that conversation to where maybe somebody's able to look at that and say, you know, I didn't consider that the right way, or I seeing something I didn't see before, to where we're able to arrive at a point different from where we started. And those words are not weapons of war when we're out there speaking and establishing, but they become instruments of the harvest, of cultivation. [00:41:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I think a lot of it too, has to rely on the maturity of realizing when there's really not a conversation to be had. Right. Like, I mean, that's the other thing too, is that I think that if we were to be. I'm speaking myself, but as society as well, if we were to be probably more honest with ourselves, we know when we're diving into a conversation that is only going to be contentious and argumentative and that there's no minds that are going to be changed. And I think that the real maturity that I need to develop is the, like, the restraint to not want to jump in and say something even when, you know, even when you feel like you're right and you probably are, or that you might have the perfect argument or you might have the perfect thing to say. I think a lot of times, like, you know, you hear it say, like, how many minds are actually changed by arguing with somebody you know, on Facebook? I would say that there's. The percentages are probably pretty low. I would say the times that minds have usually been changed, at least mine, or that we've. I've had discussions with people that have been, you know, healthy and constructive. It's usually over lunch, you know, one on one with a person because you kind of have to see the other human being across the table from you, where social media makes it really easy to just see a picture and hurtful words or, you know, incendiary words or provocative ideas. I feel like the more we actually talk to people one on one as human beings, you. You have a much better chance of actually listening and, and having somebody actually listen to you. So, you know, again, back to this idea that, yeah, it is fun sometimes to kind of roll around in the mud a little bit on social media, but that's. You're. You're not changing anybody's mind by doing that, and certainly nobody's changing yours. And so therefore, where are our intentions? Mine need to be better. [00:43:55] Speaker A: Okay, let's go into chapter nine. I Think this is where we've been wanting to get to. I mean, the miracles. [00:44:00] Speaker B: Okay. [00:44:03] Speaker A: This to me is, I don't know, powerful. The heavens are open. It's a message of love, it's a message of hope. And it's a message for all of those who feel like God is not there to say, he's here, he's here. He is the same God yesterday, today, forever. There is no change in him. If he isn't doing miracles, it's not because he's left us. It's because we've left him. And an invitation. Come to Christ. Come to know this God, Come to see the miracles. It's exciting. It's really exciting. And as I was reading it, there was actually something that stood out to me before I dive into miracles. Because when he talks about how wonderful it is and Christ and bringing us back into the presence of God and judgment, he says one thing about judgment I wanted to touch on. And then I want to finish up with back into this miracles and this message of excitement. Verse 14. And this is chapter nine. And then come with the judgment of the Holy One upon them. And then come at the time that he that is filthy shall be filthy still. He that is righteous shall be righteous still. He that is happy shall be happy still. He that is unhappy shall be unhappy still. And that's that last line. He that is happy shall be happy still. He that is unhappy shall be unhappy still. And this hit for me, and I was thinking about this, how many times in my life, or do I think I will be happy if. And we start to add that qualifier, like, if I could just be able to buy a house and be able to have a car and be able to have a stable job so that I can take care of my family, then I would be happy. Or if I had enough money to pay off my house or be financially sufficient or be able to not have these concerns, then I would be happy. If we start putting qualifications on what it would take in order for us to be happy, what we soon find out is when we accomplish that, we're not happy because we keep moving the goalpost right. There's always going to be something else. And I think this is a good quality that we have as humans. And I'll take this one step further. It's a quality that we have as gods or the divine nature in us to always seek improvement, development, creation and building. And we tie a lot of our happiness to this because we find fulfillment in work right by the sweat of our brows. And we're trying to. But there's also a caution and a warning in this. If our happiness is tied to this, that I won't be happy until. And a caution. I'm not going to be happy until Christ returns to the earth and fixes everything. In which case then I'm going to be happy or I'm not going to be happy then until I die and I see God and everything's made right. If we can't learn how to find happiness in the here and now and find happiness in the situation that we're in, I don't think we will ever find happiness. I'm going back to that last line. He that is unhappy shall be unhappy. Still, if we're waiting for God to make things right and that's what our happiness depends on, we've missed something. We've missed the boat. I think part of this life is learning how to be happy in the settings and the surroundings that we are in. Because how in the world can God be happy looking down on an earth where people are killing each other, where people are lying about him being dead or gone, or people are lying about accusing his people that are following him and beating down the humble and the kind and the sincere and trashing the place. How can God be happy? And how could we handle being a God, living with this and find happiness in a hate filled world if we can't? That's the point. I think that's part of what being God is learning to be happy in the here and the now. I think the atonement offers us that or at peace. [00:48:14] Speaker B: I think that that's probably too. I don't think that. I don't think we should feel expected to be happy when our house is burning down around us. Like, I don't. I don't think that that should be a qualifier or should be an expectation is what I actually mean that it shouldn't be an expectation. It's like, no, you have to be happy in all situations. I know that word men are. That they might have joy. I think joy is peace when there's a storm about. But there's a calmness or at least rest when everything around you feels crazy. So I think I would. I would personally maybe swap that word in with, you know, happiness. I think peace or calmness would probably be what I would say is a reasonable expectation. [00:49:01] Speaker A: You hit it, Nate. I don't think. I think we need to be careful about how we define the word happy here. Because if we look at this and say happiness needs to rule over every single other emotion out there that we need to closet all of our other feelings in order to paste a smile on our face and pretend like everything is fine. That's not happiness, that's not natural, and that's not what God's expecting us to do. Does God not also get angry? Does God not also sorrow? Does God not also experience every other emotion that we as humans experience? Are we not made in his image? It's healthy to feel sad. It's healthy to feel angry. It's healthy to feel all of the different emotions. And I don't feel like that's what he's saying when you say if you're not happy, you're going to be unhappy forever. But, but there is the ability to say my happiness does not depend on X happening or not happening. My happiness is maybe, let's swap the word happy with content or peace, knowing that I don't stand condemned. And I think what the fountain of this happiness that we're talking about is hope. I have a hope that, like you say in the case of my house burning down, if my house burns down, I'm certainly, I'm not happy about it. I'm not glad my house burnt down. [00:50:15] Speaker B: Yes. [00:50:16] Speaker A: But I have a hope that if I have insurance that that's going to restore it and I'm going to be able to fix this, that I'm able to build back and take this. I have hope that I'm going to be able to get past and move past this. And I think hope is a source of that happiness, that regardless of what's happening, I am capable of dealing with it, of fixing it, of finding a way. And if not, God can help me where I'm not capable to find a way to handle this. And having those tools is what gives me happiness in the here and the now. And that is what establishes our core. [00:50:58] Speaker B: I love it. [00:50:59] Speaker A: That's what it means by happiness. [00:51:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm with you on that. I just, you know, I just think that, that that's all I meant is just, you know, how sometimes it's like, you better be happy all the time. And if you're not, that's all on you. It's like. Well, I do know that, you know, we're told not to rely on other people for happiness, but I also think that happiness shouldn't necessarily be the end goal of everything either. Like joy, peace, fulfillment, you know, I mean, there's all kinds of other things that should be like, I don't know, like sadness is kind of a crucial learning emotion. Like It's a. It's a thing that we can grow and build from. [00:51:37] Speaker A: So. [00:51:39] Speaker B: But you can be sad and be at peace as well. You know, you can mourn and also have comfort and peace inside. And I think that that's. I don't know, that's kind of where I'm at on it. [00:51:51] Speaker A: Yeah. The sadness actually, in my mind almost adds seasoning to the happiness or the contentment, the joy, right. When. When things don't go super well and we don't understand why, and then we fast forward in life and we're down five, six, seven years later and all of a sudden have the gift of hindsight and we look at how we felt and how it came together and how it was able to. And. And that almost seasons the happiness that we're feeling. Right. It adds a flavor to it, complexity and depth that. I don't know, men are. That they might have joy. Just the whole purpose that we're here. [00:52:28] Speaker B: Yep, yep. [00:52:30] Speaker A: And. And I think. Last comment on this, and I promise I'll move on there. There are some people with, with mental illness, chronic depression, that for as much as they want to be happy, right. And they look at this verse and say, well, wait a second, so I'm going to always be unhappy forever. But I think they have a hope and that they can be healed. Right? A hope that one day they're not going to be dealing with a lot of this. And when we're resurrected, I think a lot of those things are made right. If we're missing a hand or we're made whole and the resurrection is not just brought back from death, but maybe some of those things will restore the ability to feel that contentment that maybe people are missing today in a hole in some of that. But I think the true happiness that they're referring to and being able to happy forever as being anchored in God to the point that you can feel that hope. And sometimes some of the sadness seasons the happiness that we're able to experience because of it. Miracles. We ready to dive into these? [00:53:37] Speaker B: Let's do it. [00:53:39] Speaker A: Do miracles happen today? It's such an interesting thing because I can tell you, in my life, I have seen so many miracles. I've seen people healed. And it's funny because I think many of us have stories where someone has been given a blessing and they've healed quickly. And we look at it and say, man, I've. I've seen healing. It doesn't seem like it's that big of a deal. Some people do get healed, but I'VE personally seen some incredible things happening that can't be explained by. By just everyday, normal, whatever. Miracles are happening. Miracles are happening. I don't know, Nate. [00:54:32] Speaker B: I agree. I think that. I think that maybe it would be helpful for this discussion for you to define what a miracle is to you. What is a miracle? [00:54:47] Speaker A: Boy. [00:54:53] Speaker B: We'Ve had this discussion before, like in a meeting. And it's funny because there was like, it ended up at like two extremes where it's like everything is a miracle or nothing's a miracle. And you're just like, oh, no. I remember somebody made the argument that basically it's just like, well, everything is great. So, like, what's out of the ordinary? And you know, I don't know. I guess I'm just. I guess I'm wondering. I'm wondering how you would define a miracle against just kind of your day to day, hey, I gotta wake up this morning, you know? [00:55:28] Speaker A: Yeah. I go, if I try to define miracle. And I think a lot of times when we define miracles, we try to stab at the symptom rather than the cause. A miracle is somebody being raised from the dead. Is that a miracle? I think a miracle is something that causes wonder and awe. I think a miracle is something that causes us to. To look at it in a deep sense of appreciation. And so if someone's raised from the dead, it's a miracle in the sense that, wow, I can't believe that happened. And even saying can't believe that happened isn't right. I am odd, amazed, and I am filled with wonder about this happening. A deep appreciation, I think, to me. And that's why it's so hard for me to define miracle. I don't think miracle is necessarily a set of criteria or rules or a list of things that can or can't happen. And do we classify this as a miracle or not? Miracles, to me are things that cause a sense of wonder, a sense of awe. And so someone raising from the dead is a. Is a miracle because of the wonder that it, that it, that it creates in us. I don't know, is that. [00:57:13] Speaker B: I like that. I like that. I like that. I think. I think that that's. I don't know. I think that maybe that's what's hard about seeing miracles is that maybe we really do see so many happen around us that it feels almost just commonplace or. I don't know, I just wonder sometimes if maybe there's miracles, more miracles happening around us that we're not even recognizing or seeing. I've. I have Thought, you know, what the next life will be like if we get to kind of look back at our movie is, or our life is like a big, long movie. How many times. The miracle was we couldn't find our keys. And so we were five minutes late and on the road five minutes ahead of us, some person got T boned in the middle of an intersection, and you would have totally died. And the miracle was that you couldn't find your keys that morning. But we don't see that as a miracle now. We look at that as an inconvenience and an oh, I'm running late. And I guess I'm hoping that maybe we'll be able to have a good laugh in the next life about, like, oh, my goodness, there was miracles actually happening every day that we are totally unaware of and that we may never even know about, you know, because of the political season. Maybe it's on my mind, but, like, I don't. I think that, you know, regardless of where you sit politically, dude, Trump turning his head and not having his brains blown out on CNN was a miracle. And I don't think it's a miracle because he necessarily needed to win an election. I think it's a miracle because of how dangerous and crazy could the world have become had he not turned his head at that last second? This has nothing to do with him being the president or not being the president. This could be any political leader. It's like that the unrest and just like the unraveling of society feels like it could have been very, very real. And, you know, and even now it's like, yeah, like, I don't. I'm the miracle. I don't think has anything to do with who won or didn't win an election. I think maybe the idea is, can we pray that we have perspective? Can we pray that we trust that God has an actual plan and a grip on things? And if so, we can have peace no matter how disappointed we might be or not disappointed might be or if something would have gone and the other person would have won. Can we still then feel like we can have faith that, yeah, God still got this under control, whether we were disappointed in this or not. Right. It's like, I think all of this kind of comes back to trying to have a bigger perspective on things. So to answer your question, what is a miracle? I guess to answer my question, what is a miracle? I mean, maybe it's a matter of us just better understanding God's plan. Maybe it's those times that we get to peek behind the curtain a little bit and actually see how much God truly is involved with our lives and helping us avoid pitfalls and showing us beautiful things that we may totally miss if we weren't paying attention. Maybe the miracle is when we're praying for miracles. Maybe that's more just praying that we can have better perspective and just better recognize all of the miracles that are probably taking place every single day. [01:01:30] Speaker A: It's interesting you. You mentioned time and place. Some. Sometimes the miracle is more being at the right time, at the right place, rather than something that's unexplainable. I think that's something that we have a hard time with, is we feel like a miracle must be something that's unexplainable. And if we say that these miracles are just happenstance or things that are happening, this, that really those are cheap miracles. And I don't think that's the case. I think that's a problem of poorly defining miracles. Would anyone say it wasn't a miracle when they were talking about the taxes they had to pay? And Jesus tells Peter to go to the fish and pull the coin out of the fish's mouth and use that to pay the taxes. That's a crazy miracle. To be able to all of a sudden produce a coin out of a fish's mouth just because how did he know and how to. But then you start looking at it. Is that not also just a happenstance of being at the right time, at the right place that the fish was able to do that? That. Can we not explain away a lot of the miracles? That a lot of what we think of it as an impossibility. And miracles have to be something that's impossibility. Well, really the impossibility is just our lack of understanding or our ignorance of what the circumstances were that happened to get us there. I don't think we should be qualifying miracles only as something that can be unexplainable. And I don't think that being able to explain a miracle takes away or cheapens by any degree the fact that a miracle is there. We talk about the creation of man as a miracle, but if God does it scientifically, is it any less of a miracle because he's using the science at the time to do it or his understanding, his infinite understanding of how things work? Right. For example, years back I was scouting with some youth in Moab and we got caught unprepared on a trail 100 some odd degrees in the middle of the day, miles away from where we needed to be. Without water. We Were in a bad spot, in a bad spot, hoping that maybe search and rescue would come. And I was worrying about what happened. What do we do? Am I going to kill these boys? It's a bad place to be. And as we're walking, I'm thinking about the Bible. I'm thinking about Moses, and I'm thinking about the story when he touches the rock with the stick and the water comes out. And I have to ask myself that question. I have to go back to what Mormon's saying. Do I believe in miracles? Do I believe that God could make water come out of a rock for me? Or was that only Moses? Am I entitled to ask for that? And I start to wrestle with myself like, well, this is my fault because I wasn't prepared enough or maybe we weren't, or. And we start going through the list of why we don't deserve it or why this wouldn't happen or why God won't, and we start trying to disqualify, qualify ourselves from the miracle, right? And in that moment, I prayed and I asked for a miracle and I called in the name of Jesus Christ and said, you helped Moses and you made water come out of the rock for him. And that's the miracle I need today. Will you please help water come out of the rock? And I kid you not. We went around the bend and came up the next part of the trail and water was coming right out of the rock and, and I had a water purifier in my backpack. We pulled it out. We were able to take the stream of water and, and fill up water bottles and, and refresh and, and save us. It saved our lives. I. I saw water come from a rock and saved our lives, just like Moses. Was that stream always there? I don't know. I don't know how long. I don't know the history of the area. Was the miracle really that water came out of the rock and saved our whole lives just because miraculously God split the rock and made that happen in that moment? Or was the miracle more the setting, the time, the place, the prayer, and the fact that that happened after I asked for it and that we were in the situation that we were in, right? When we start talking about miracles, I think we can explain a lot of these away in different ways. The miracle to me is the sense of awe and wonder and so many times happens because the circumstances in which we find ourselves, if that makes any sense. [01:06:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, it does. I think you kind of bring up a good point again. I think I was trying to Say a similar thing, which is, yeah, maybe there was already water coming out of that rock. Maybe you got the chance to see behind the curtain. Right. Maybe you praying about it and praying for that made it so that you had the chance to really see how many times God is already prepared to save us and help us. And it just can continue to strengthen our faith and we can continue to rely on Him. And I'm. I love it. I think perspective is a big part of this. Anything else you want to hit? [01:07:21] Speaker A: Dude, you've. You've. You've seen some massive miracles. The fact that you're even alive today. [01:07:26] Speaker B: Yep. It's true. [01:07:27] Speaker A: Over and over again, right? [01:07:29] Speaker B: Yep. True that. Yeah. [01:07:39] Speaker A: I don't know. As I kind of wrestle with this in my mind, there, there. There are. There. There are the explainable, and yet still there are the unexplainable and. And things that I haven't been able to explain. I. I guess not going into a lot of details, it's not make the. The show longer than it. I don't know, man. I don't know why I'm struggling so much with this. I set the stage to set the table right at the beginning because I was so excited to talk about miracles. And then we get here and I'm almost incoherent and kind of babbling like an idiot on this. I can't even get to where I want to say. Like, if I were to try to start talking about the things I've seen in my life, and here's the craziest thing about it, right? Seeing. Seeing demons cast out of people, seeing water coming from a rock, hearing. Hearing the Lord instruct me or to do something and showing up and being where I needed to be when I needed to be there, and the list goes on, and being healed and not having certain things happen and having promises that were fulfilled and going. And just keeping a record in my journal and looking back at all of the incredible, amazing miracles I've seen, I will tell you that today. Today, even with all of the evidence that stacks in there in the favor of this, I still second guess and I still wonder, and I still ask myself, will this happen? And am I worthy of having something like this happen? And I still at times doubt in the miraculous and that a miracle can happen. And why is it. Is that human nature? Like, what's. I guess what I'm trying to say is as many times as the Lord has answered my prayer, which is a miraculous. Even in and of itself, the incredible things that I've seen I still doubt sometimes that miracles will happen. And I still wonder, and why is it that we still doubt that miracles will happen? And. And maybe it's because it's outside of our control. You know, growing up as a kid and I read about, if your faith was the size of a mustard seed, you could. You could move mountains, you could do all sorts of mighty things, right? And. And, come on, Nate, tell me, tell me as a kid, you didn't also, like, try to move mountains or force move things or force lift, like. [01:10:23] Speaker B: Of course we did. [01:10:25] Speaker A: Did you. Did you try to fly in your mind? Like, if I just jump and I could just take off and like, we. [01:10:30] Speaker B: Luckily I didn't jump out of anything. [01:10:32] Speaker A: But yes, we. We. We want to control it so desperately, right? We want the power to be within ourselves for the miracle. And. And maybe that's the most beautiful thing that we can learn about miracles when we're reading this chapter, is that the miracle is something that comes from God and our dependence and our faith and our hope and our leaning on Him. And we don't necessarily have the ability to control those miracles. We can ask for miracles and we can lean on God, but because it's outside of our control, it's not. I snap my fingers and this happens, and it's like Mary Poppins type here, I'm going to clean the room, and it's done. We, because it's outside of our control, we have a hard time depending on them, a hard time thinking that they can happen to us, and a hard time believing in them. But it's important that we do because that belief puts in us, instills in us a dependence on God. It helps turn us to God and it helps us rely on God. And that relationship with God is what makes the miracles happen. [01:11:43] Speaker B: Well said. [01:11:46] Speaker A: I don't know if it was well said, but I think it's well said. [01:11:49] Speaker B: I think that everybody listening will understand what it is you're saying and feel it, because we've all felt it before and know that it isn't the easiest thing to always put in words. But when you accept that these things aren't just coincidences, we all know it's kind of like the unspoken. You know, we all get it. Anything else you want to hit this week before we wrap up? We're going pretty late. [01:12:19] Speaker A: Oh, shoot. Yeah. Edit, Edit, Edit. Half this episode out. [01:12:23] Speaker B: No, I'm not editing it. Half of it out. Anything else you want to hit? [01:12:27] Speaker A: No, no, I'm good. I just. Last, last. I say I'm good. If a miracle really is a sense of wonder, a sense of awe. As kids, I think we're odd and wondered. Nature can wow us and wonder. Maybe we should get in touch with being inspired and being. I don't know. As we grow older, sometimes we lose that sense of wonder and that sense of awe. And it's worth taking a break, get outside, go camping, or go look at something that's just incredible and appreciate. I think maybe if we want to understand miracles and see miracles, foster and develop that sense of wonder and awe, that's. That's all I got left. I'm sorry, I'm out of gas. Done. [01:13:12] Speaker B: We appreciate everybody that is listening. We appreciate the support we get. Thanks for sharing with your friends, family, acquaintances, enemies. I don't even know who you're sharing it with at this point, but we appreciate it. We. You can get a hold of us at the email address. Hi eeekly, deep dive.com if you would like to send us any feedback, any thoughts, questions, insights of your own. [01:13:41] Speaker A: We love hearing it. We love reading it. [01:13:43] Speaker B: Oh, excuse me. It's really early at Jason's time and it's really late at my time. Sorry, I didn't mean to yawn there right in the middle of that, but. But we love you. We appreciate you. That's all we have right now for this week. So until next week.