Ether 1 - 11

[00:00:16] Speaker A: Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the Add On Education Network. The podcast where we take a look at the weekly Come follow me discussions and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here and the studio with our friend and the show's producer, Nate Piper. [00:00:32] Speaker B: Hello. [00:00:33] Speaker A: Hello. Hello, Nate. [00:00:34] Speaker B: Hello, friends. [00:00:37] Speaker A: How you doing? [00:00:38] Speaker B: Round two, round two of this week's podcast. Should we show him, like, the man behind the curtain a little bit? [00:00:45] Speaker A: The man behind the curtain? Yeah. [00:00:47] Speaker B: You know wizard of Oz? We tried recording this podcast a couple days ago. About halfway through the podcast, our different time zone issues actually affected us, and Jason had to go help with his family, and then I had to get to work immediately after. So thank you for everybody that's been patient with us as we've been trying to stay on top of this every week. But we are back. But this is actually round two of us trying to do this episode this week. [00:01:20] Speaker A: Round two, and. And we're excited to cover this one. We're. We're gonna do a little bit of a merge again. We're. We're gonna go ether one through all of olive. Yeah. [00:01:33] Speaker B: I mean, isn't it pretty much most of ether that we're going through tonight? [00:01:36] Speaker A: No, we get to stop before, like, ether12 is going to be fantastic. [00:01:42] Speaker B: So that gets to be its own thing. [00:01:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Let's see, let's. Let's see, let's see. Let's see. Because now. Now I'm. Now I'm all hesitant about this. Give me. Give me one second. Give me one second. [00:01:55] Speaker B: Don't worry about it. Let's get going. We're good. The people will find out when they find out. The good. The good citizens of this podcast listenership. [00:02:06] Speaker A: All right, boy. Can you fill it, Nate? Oh, yeah. [00:02:13] Speaker B: We're back. [00:02:15] Speaker A: Even more than just us being back, there's something in the air. The restoration is coming. Restoration has been coming for a long time, but it feels like the Lord is pouring out his spirit. He is hastening the work, as President Nelson says so often. It's just. I don't know, it feels like there's something in the air. There's a lot of exciting things happening. [00:02:43] Speaker B: I'm with you. [00:02:46] Speaker A: Last week in Spain, we had two more baptisms. We've got another baptism. That's awesome. [00:02:51] Speaker B: Hey, congrats. [00:02:54] Speaker A: The Stake presidency is coming to meet with us on Sunday to discuss the splitting of the ward. We're going to be splitting it, creating another stake out here. Just the work is rolling forth. [00:03:05] Speaker B: It's awesome. It's getting done. [00:03:07] Speaker A: It's getting done. And I don't know, it just feels. It feels like I keep seeing more and more stories about people coming back, or maybe not even just people coming back, but also people genuinely interested in finding out more about Christ. It feels like we're almost going through another revival. I don't know if you're seeing the same thing or feeling the same thing. It just feels like there's a general shift towards coming to Christ the world over. [00:03:36] Speaker B: Admittedly, I'm kind of locked in a bubble all day, every day, so I don't know if I get to see that boots to the ground nearly as much as you do, but I am happy to hear the report. [00:03:50] Speaker A: Well, it feels that way. You know how 9, 11, there was definitely a shift towards people going back to church. Coming to church. It felt like there was a lot. I mean, even my wife Janessa, she served her mission in Costa Rica and her father's not a member of the church, wasn't a member of the church. And even him after that time wrote her a letter, which was a touching letter about how much she valued what she was doing and the importance of God. And it was just interesting seeing that come from him. But it feels a little bit like that now. But let's dive in. In the Book of Ether, chapter one. I've got a few things to get over. I think the meat of our message today is going to circle more around this incredible journey that the Jaredites take. But before we get there, we're going. [00:04:41] Speaker B: To talk about the boats. [00:04:44] Speaker A: Let's talk about the boats before we get there. Verse 2. I take mine account from the 20 and 4 plates which were found by the people of Limhi, which is called the Book of ether. And these 24 plates have shown up earlier in Mosiah when they discover this. And it's caused me a little bit of curiosity. I always thought of them as like 24 separate sets of records. And I think it was my son actually, and come follow me that suggested that maybe they were actually just 24 pages in a single book. Which got me thinking, you know, I've never thought of it that way, but as I read 24 plates, it could just as easily be 24 plates in a single book. I don't think that's the case, but I appreciate thinking about something in a way that I hadn't considered it before. It led to an interesting discussion. And in the journal of discourse, volume 19, they've got some interesting discussions and quotes about Cumorah and the records that it contains. And I think this is kind of lived on in the legends of our church. Right. The idea that in a vision they saw the hill open up. And inside the hill was not just a plate, but as it was described. In fact, maybe I should just quote this real quick. When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the hill Cumorah, which he did. Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened and they walked into a cave in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think at the time whether they had light of the sun or artificial light, but there was as it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table. It was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as 2ft high. And they were all together in this room, more plates than probably many wagon loads. And they were piled up in the corners and along the walls. The first time they went in there, the sword of Laban hung on the wall. But when they went in again, it had been taken down and laid upon the table. Across the gold plates, it was unsheathed. And on it was written these words. This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ. I tell you, this is coming not only from all over Cowrie, but others who were familiar with it and who understood it just as well as we understand coming to this meeting, enjoying the day. And by and by we separate and we go away forgetting most of what was said. Kind of got a little interesting story if there's 24 plates, you know, and. And the reason I go down this. And I'm going to promise I'm going to not go down this super long. It gets me excited for things to come. And I think this is a teaser that the Book of Mormon does ever since the very first chapter. And we've been down this road in the first chapter when the Lord saw, or excuse me, Lehi saw and heard much. And we get this one word description for this marvelous vision. And yet things were kept out. And what was kept out? He saw the coming of the Savior. He saw the redemption of the world and all of these beautiful things. 3rd Nephi we just came out of there and we saw all of these things that Christ taught when he pulled all the kids together. And he taught them glorious things. The eye hasn't seen and ear hasn't heard. They can't be written and described, and they keep telling us these teasers. And it would be unfair if you're telling us all these things and saying. And you'll never get to see what it is. But what I appreciate is in all of these instances, it's always that little follow up, like asking, you shall receive knock and it shall be opened. And the Lord saying this because he genuinely wants our buy in. He wants us to feel that excitement, that attachment, to be curious about what he's up to, to ask him the questions when we're curious enough to want to know more. And that's what it keeps saying. These great things are going to be withheld until the people want to know. And what does it mean to want to know in ether? It's going to talk about these things not coming forth until they have the faith and to repent. The Gentiles will leave behind their wickedness and choose the right and be a righteous people. Then they will come forth when they say faith to see the greater things. My last point on this is faith is the action word. It's the principle of action. When we believe that we can, or we believe that the Lord will reveal things to us, we behave differently. We pray, we cry out to Him. We try to change our lives to be in line with what he would have us do. And he inspires us. And I think in a large part we start receiving some of the greater things. Something that I've kind of been slow to adopt but have appreciated recently, okay, is the digital scriptures. I am an analog kind of guy. You've seen me. [00:10:08] Speaker B: Oh yeah, you carry them around. You've left them at my studio many a night. [00:10:14] Speaker A: I like having the physical scriptures. I like reading. And I do too. And my scripture is kind of old. I like writing in the margins. I used to, as a younger, I used to highlight the heck out of things. I don't highlight so much anymore, but I write notes and it starts to look like the Talmud. Lee we got all these little writings on the side and the top. But what I've started doing is adapting, like pulling up the digital because when you sign in, you can have that on your phone, on your computer, whatever. And it's nice because you don't have just a short amount of space and you start to write down some of the things that matter to you. And it's good because you can capture more your thoughts, but also perhaps these thoughts can be easier shared with other people. And as you start collecting these thoughts and these inspirations and these, it's almost like you start the book of more Scripture, in a sense, you're adding greater things that were not there in the first place. [00:11:14] Speaker B: I like that. I have an app that does that. Luckily it reminds me each night. I'm not good about remembering it each night, but each night it just says, take a second to reflect on the day and write down some things. And I'm like, you know what? That's a great idea. [00:11:32] Speaker A: It is a great idea. It is a great idea, dude. [00:11:35] Speaker B: I think that, you know, I've probably said it a million times and so I don't need to, but I'm a big fan of the ponder part of search, ponder and pray, preparing lessons and things like that. I just, I think that so much of the big picture revelations and breakthroughs we have is by us, kind of like you just said, showing the faith of keeping that as the thing that's on our mind. And so I just, I such a big believer in pondering. But I also believe, I wish reflect. But I guess it is because remember is a big word right in the scriptures. But man, the things when you, when you just sit down to deliberately spend a second to go, what did I learn today? And it could be something dumb like, oh, yeah, that if you try to go through the, drive through it in and out at the wrong time, you're hosed or whatever it is. You know what I mean? But dude, there's times where I look back through some of these things that I read where I'm just like, man, my son today helped teach me to have grace in losing and whatever in this thing, and I need to be more patient with myself. And you know, I mean, it's like if you actually spend the time to try to go, hey, I actually want to not just think about this, but actually reflect upon it. I, I, you, you almost said it, and I was wondering if you were going to say it, but it's like you almost start like your own scripture. But I, I know what you mean. I know what you mean by that. And I actually think that there you're, it's, it's close, you know, Like, I would you never want to be like, oh yeah, these reflections that I have are scripture. But I will just say, like, yeah, man, there are, there are definitely times where I look through that stuff and I'm like, man, this feels inspired like this, this doesn't, this feels absolutely like profound kind of revelation being given to me. So then, and then in that case, then what is it? You know, is it scripture at that point? [00:13:30] Speaker A: I don't 100%, you know, what? [00:13:32] Speaker B: I mean, it's like, we always want to walk that fine line of not being sacrilegious, But I don't know. [00:13:38] Speaker A: I'll take that line and I'll stomp on it. Please do go back to the Book of Mormon. Lehi was what? He's not some guy that was part of the priesthood, operating in the temple, or someone that was set apart to be the prophet, to lead the people. He was a merchant. He was going about his business, doing his thing, and he's keeping records for his family. And Nephi was, what if Lehi was less than that? What was the Son of the less than that? Right. Everything that we're reading and appreciating today started because a guy and his son felt it important to write down the thoughts and the impressions that they had. I think that's exactly what scripture is. We look at something that's sanctioned today, but what we forget is back then, it was not a sanctioned. I am clearly writing scripture for this. In the Book of Mormon, we get a little bit of that for this intent. I'm writing this, and the Lord instructed me to write it. And maybe that's. Maybe it's unfair to just dismiss that part of it, but in my patriarchal blessing, it tells me to make a record of the things that I experience, and it will be as scripture for my kids. So I don't think it's sacrilegious. [00:14:52] Speaker B: You know, it's like I always just want to be. I always just want to be very careful about how, you know, like you said. I'm glad that you're willing to stomp all over that line, because I do think that you're right. I just think that sometimes we get. You know, personally, even me, I can sometimes get a little carried away, and I'm always just. I'm trying to be a little bit better about that. But you would, I guess, fundamentally, anything that testifies of Christ is. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know, isn't a testimony, Scripture something that. Something that testifies of truth? Is that not scripture? Now, I'm not saying scripture is in adopted church canon, but even if it's just for you, like, yeah, I don't think that you and I are being called to deliver scripture for the entire church. But, yeah, man, like, it's just hard for me to think that if you're. If you're writing down revelation or inspiration or, you know, these very spiritual breakthroughs that you've had from studying or, you know what I mean? It's like, isn't that, I guess by definition, scripture? It's an interesting thought. I'm glad you stomped all over that line so that I don't have to feel bad about it. [00:16:09] Speaker A: Don't feel bad about it. And as you were saying that the thought that came to my mind was the Liahona. It contained writings, it contained direction to help them get through the wilderness. And I would say that was definitely scripture for that people. But I will also say that that scripture meant nothing to the rest of the people in Jerusalem and means nothing to us now. Right. I mean, just because it's scripture, we've got to take that in context. Right? Like you said, what I'm writing and recording is not scripture for the church. And what's spoken policy or whatever. [00:16:49] Speaker B: Right? Like policy or. Yeah, something that the church needs to adopt as. Yeah, like functioning policy, I guess, is really the word that I am looking for. So cool. Interesting. I do. There is something beautiful about getting the chance to read through old journals and things like that of even grandparents and stuff. I remember. Not that, I mean, maybe kisses, like, I don't know, eight to 10 years ago, my grandma or grandpa maybe published. Not published, but made available for us, my great grandpa's journals. And it talks all about him going to like Samoa on his mission and just like the boat right over there. And we've talked about this before, but there are so many times where like the hearts of the children to the fathers really starts meaning something when you really discover who you come from. So in your patriarchal blessing, like you said that it will be. Ask scripture towards the kid is like, what's scripture supposed to do? Testify of godly things? You would think, right? Give, give, give examples of God's goodness. I mean, maybe I hate to belabor the point, but what is scripture other than that? And therefore it's like, oh, okay, cool. If. I mean, the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ. And so it's like, if that's what you're. If that's what your journals are doing is testifying of that, then it's like, yeah, I can see how incredible that would be for your future generations as well. [00:18:27] Speaker A: And it's a great point to touch on because the next thing I wanted to hit is, I mean, going to ether, chapter one, verses six, all the way down to 32. Is this line right? This is the beginning that we got so excited about. Doctrine covenant, Doctrine covenants, old doctrine covenants. We were ramping up for it. [00:18:46] Speaker B: We were ramping up. Yeah. [00:18:49] Speaker A: And you have this long line of Ether, who is the son of Coriander, the son of Moron, the son of Etham. So, you know, it just goes all the way down the list until you get to Jared. And in a short. In a. In a short takeaway, it starts with Jared, not the brother of Jared. And you think, well, isn't the brother of Jared the one who's kind of the hero of the tale? The one who's. Who's doing the praying, the one who's saving everyone? Why not have him come through? Because Ether is also this. This prophet at the end of times, right? Why not have him come through? But there's parallels with this, and there's parallels with Nephi, who. Who has Jacob be the spiritual line, be the high priest. And so in the ancient world, you always had this dual leadership. It was the priest and the king, and the king was the political governor, the one that ruled over. And then you had the high priest or the spiritual leader over the people, kind of like the prophet that guides the church, if you will. And this dual leadership, I mean, it's a thing. Go back. And Jared is the one who tells the brother of Jared what to pray for. Jared's the one who's making the decisions and taking them to his brother to have him take them to the Lord. Right. And the story, it's super interesting how it centers around Jared, but it also centers around the brother of Jared. And I say it centers around Jared because the brother of Jared doesn't even have a name. Right. [00:20:18] Speaker B: I beg to differ. [00:20:20] Speaker A: Okay, he has a name, but it's not mentioned in the record. [00:20:23] Speaker B: Isn't it Mahan Rai Mori Ankumar? [00:20:25] Speaker A: It is. [00:20:26] Speaker B: All right, then he's got a name that we know, bro. [00:20:29] Speaker A: But where do you read that in the Book of Ether? [00:20:31] Speaker B: I don't think you read it anywhere in the Book of Ether, but you definitely read it on the roster of a BYU football team at least once every three or four years. [00:20:44] Speaker A: You know I'm right. [00:20:48] Speaker B: Dude, you're not making me edit this, by the way. [00:20:50] Speaker A: That's hilarious. [00:20:51] Speaker B: Because it is hilarious. But you know I'm right. [00:20:54] Speaker A: No, you are right. [00:20:55] Speaker B: All right. [00:20:58] Speaker A: I think the quick win on this is this is the king's line and Ether to make that connection. I think this is. It's important when we get to the end of the record and Ether is watching two different people battle for the kingdom down to where the entire kingdom is destroyed. I think it changes the narrative when you realize the guy in the cave who's writing everything down is actually the rightful heir to the throne. The guy that. I mean politically, shouldn't he be in charge? And the people turning away and rejecting that leadership and what happens. It's interesting. [00:21:35] Speaker B: I like it. [00:21:37] Speaker A: But to kind of marry this to what we were talking about before. Look at how long that list is. I mean, going all the way down to 32, just looking at the page. That's an impressive list. How far back in your family tree does your line go? If you're to jump into Ancestry.com and start looking up the family history? Do you have that many generations in your tree? I don't think I do. And the crazy thing is, if you were to ask me the question of, do you think they kept records better today in a digital world where everything is on the computer versus thousands of years ago? Instinctually, I think that today in the digital world, we have a much better job of keeping all of these records because it doesn't take near as much space. I don't have to have a cave full of plates that you would load into a wagon to keep track of things. It sits on my computer or it sits somewhere in the. In the cloud, in this. You know, it doesn't. It doesn't feel like there's a lot of work that goes into, or at least physical space that goes into storing this. It's a lot easier to just capture these things digitally. But my family record does not go near as deep as Ethers does. And I don't think most of us do. We kind of came. I mean, if there is anything that points to apostasy, could it not be how disconnected we are? And we refer to this time? And there's been a lot of pushback from scholars and people saying that we shouldn't call it the Dark ages because it's really just dark because of our understanding. It's not that they were savages, or even using the word savages has a bunch of connotations there, but there is something dark about it. And I like the comparison, using the words dark in contrast to light. And our records, we didn't keep track of it like they did. And I don't think everybody is able to go. I mean, part of this is it's the king's line. If we go back to a king's line today, that line goes forever and forever. Sure. So I think there's one more significant takeaway from this, Nate. And the takeaway I'm going to take from this is God says that he wants a nation of kings and priests, not one King and one priest. And go back to Moses when somebody complains to him about somebody prophesying who wasn't there when they were called because he was outside of the camp. And Moses said, what are you complaining about? I wish that everybody was a prophet. How much easier would my life be if everyone was a prophet and knew what they were supposed to do and I didn't have to sit there and tell them over and over again, Right? God wants all of us. And see Moses. God said, take the congregation, prepare them, wash them, make them clean, and prepare them to bring them into my presence. And this is temple talk. We've read about this in the oath and covenant of the priesthood. Bring them into the presence of God. This is a trip into the holy of holies. Not just by one priest who does it in representation of the people. It is bring all of the people into the holy of holies, the presence of God. Bring them to him. I don't want one priest. I want a nation of priests. A nation of kings and priests. And so I look at this line that's so well and carefully preserved as a kingship line throughout the book of Ether that was valuable to them. And in history, it's the king's line that is always preserved. Today, there's been a shift, and through technology and the push that the church has with ancestry and turning the hearts of the children to the fathers and the fathers to the children, is it not all of our lines that the church is researching and digging and connecting and making it so that our line appears like royalty. What a gift that is, right? That we have deep roots. And even if our physical family ancestry line doesn't go all the way back to Adam yet, you know what's cool is the priesthood line. When a young man or an older man or whatever is ordained to the priesthood, to be able to say, I received the priesthood from the hands of my father, who received it from the hands of who he got it from, to take that back to Peter, James and John, who received it under the hands of Christ. These chains, these connections, they're powerful. And seeing this here in the Book of Ether reminds me of that, makes those connections for me. [00:26:30] Speaker B: Love it. Let's keep going. [00:26:32] Speaker A: Okay, Last thing here, and then we'll turn and get to some of the. More. [00:26:37] Speaker B: I want to talk about these boats, bro. [00:26:39] Speaker A: Boats are coming. Verse 34. And the brother of Jacob. Jacob. You're killing brother of Jared. The Jacob. [00:26:48] Speaker B: I loved that. Sorry. [00:26:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm gonna. [00:26:55] Speaker B: It's early morning for you, dude. Look, it's early morning for you. I've had a long day. I'm sorry. It's like me tormenting my best friend who's just waking up. I'm sorry, Jacob. [00:27:06] Speaker A: It's great. [00:27:06] Speaker B: Jacob's doing great. Dude, let's get back to Jacob. [00:27:09] Speaker A: Let's put Jake at the side and get to Jared. We talked about stepping on some lines. Yeah. I get ready. I'm putting my boots on now. [00:27:19] Speaker B: Let's go. I better put a marker. I'm putting a marker in the. In the pro tool session. I'm ready. [00:27:26] Speaker A: The brother of Jared being a large and mighty man. [00:27:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:30] Speaker A: And being large and mighty sounds familiar. [00:27:35] Speaker B: Yes. [00:27:35] Speaker A: And intriguing. And here's why I say familiar, because this is how they describe Mormon. [00:27:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:41] Speaker A: This is how they describe Nephi. [00:27:42] Speaker B: Okay. [00:27:43] Speaker A: And there's some Old Testament parallels in this too. Right. Samson, Saul was head and shoulders above everyone else. [00:27:50] Speaker B: Okay. David, I was gonna say was smaller than Goliath, but yes. [00:27:54] Speaker A: Okay, okay, okay. So, dude, I'm glad you said that. I'm glad you said that because you were the one who talks about the miracle of the Helaman's warriors going against the. And you know, the art doesn't make it look like much of a miracle because those guys are all. [00:28:13] Speaker B: It makes it look like. It makes it look like a miracle that those dudes didn't win the war in, like, two weeks. [00:28:19] Speaker A: But, yes, I think the opposite is true with David and Goliath. I think that the art tries to portray him as a small, scraggly little guy. [00:28:28] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:28:29] Speaker A: When he shows up to fight Goliath, you have all of the armor that you can put on. Why is Saul offering him his armor? Especially when Saul is a foot taller than anyone else. [00:28:40] Speaker B: Interesting. Okay, let me throw this at you. Is that one of the reasons, though, that David took it off was because it was way too big for him and cumbersome. [00:28:51] Speaker A: Yeah. He wasn't used to wearing armor. He didn't like the way he didn't feel like he gave him the flexibility to move. Could be that it was oversized. That was. That was. [00:28:58] Speaker B: That would be my only thing that would maybe push back against that is if it's just like. It's a little. [00:29:03] Speaker A: If, you know, you're a foot taller than everyone else. [00:29:06] Speaker B: Yeah, you're right. [00:29:06] Speaker A: I'm going to throw my arm around here. [00:29:08] Speaker B: Yeah, you're right. You're right. [00:29:09] Speaker A: I don't know. Also, also, I'll say this. David was Saul's armor bearer, which is the guy that carries the armor around wherever he Goes when he's out of battle. You don't pick some small, little scraggly kid to try to like to be your. Your. I'm going to call it golf caddy, for one. [00:29:25] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. Yes. Golf caddy. Your armor caddy. That's. What. What kind of advice was his. His armor caddy giving him when he sees Goliath, he's like, I think I'm going to take a. Let's go with a small, smooth stone. Let's go bow about 100 yards. [00:29:45] Speaker A: Okay. [00:29:45] Speaker B: And then I think I'm gonna follow it up with a sword. It's a tradition like no other. What's that? What's the golf slogan? [00:29:54] Speaker A: From this distance, sir, I would recommend the spear. [00:29:56] Speaker B: That's what I'm saying. From this distance, sir, I think we should go. A spear. Yep. The caddy. [00:30:01] Speaker A: I think if you're close enough to be recommending the small sword, you're probably not getting that recommendation out. [00:30:06] Speaker B: That's exactly right. Okay, so he was big enough. All right, so David's big. [00:30:11] Speaker A: When you said stones, you're getting me on another tangent, but I think this tangent is one that I need to go on real quick. [00:30:15] Speaker B: Okay, I'm ready. [00:30:16] Speaker A: Okay. So last week's lesson, and I'm kicking myself for not even saying this, he pushes reading Isaiah again, and he tells the people, read Isaiah. And it's not the first time that this has shown up in the Book of Mormon. And I promise this relates to David in the stones. I was curious, how many times are we commanded? It's not even just like, oh, maybe you should know. Like, we're outright told to study the words of Isaiah in the Book of Mormon, and it's five times. And I thought, huh, that's interesting. Five. What would be the significance of five? And I started thinking about that, and I said, what other things are repeated five times? And as I started going down this exercise, what first stood out to me is the five fingers on your hand, right? And if you have five fingers on your hand and a hand, it's an action like, take it into your hand. Do something about it. And so that was the first connection I made. But when I said, is that connection just frivolous? Like, where else are we seeing that David picks five stones to take to battle with him, Right? Not that he uses all five, but it's this five. The significance of taking it into your hands, right? And as I'm going down this list of fives, the Ten Commandments are broken into two fives. We talked about the first five referring to spiritual, the Lord, and the next five referring to your neighbor. Love God, Love your neighbor. And it breaks into two hands, two. [00:31:57] Speaker B: Things parallel between the spiritual and physical. [00:32:00] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes, yes. The 10 virgins, you have five that acted one way and five that acted another. And so you're looking again, these five signif. Signaling. Signaling, taking these actions or what you're acting in. But if you go down this list, and I'm not going to go through the whole list and enumerate everything, now we got more things to talk about. It's just interesting. Boats. We got to get to the boats. The taking things into your hand and doing something about it. Look at what else comes in fives. And I think it'll be eye opening. Even the Pentateuch, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, the five books of Moses. Right. The law. This is how you should act. This is how you should behave. We're going to line it out. Sacrifices. There's five types of sacrifices that you can offer. It's just, you know, like the five. [00:32:53] Speaker B: Horsemen of the Apocalypse. [00:32:55] Speaker A: Just kidding. [00:32:56] Speaker B: I'm just kidding. There's only four. [00:33:00] Speaker A: Okay, keep going. All right, I'm going to get back to Brother Jared here being a large and mighty man. [00:33:05] Speaker B: No, tell me about the other five. Come on, man. I'm ready, I'm ready. [00:33:09] Speaker A: Let's go into this large and mighty man. Wait, that's really the end. That's it. No, this large and mighty man. Because this is the tangent that's pulled me off. Right? [00:33:18] Speaker B: Okay. The five deadly sins. I'm just going to start putting five on everything. So I'm going to blame you for it too, by the way. I'm going to give a talk in church the next time I'm just going to start misquoting all scripture, I'll be like, Jason told me I could do it. All right. He's a large and mighty man. [00:33:39] Speaker A: Okay, so just a quick reminder. This is Moroni, who's summing up these plates. And by the way, these 24 records of the Jaredites is taking up two thirds portion of the Book of Mormon, which is sealed, which we didn't even get. [00:33:53] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:33:55] Speaker A: And that should be a summary of the 24. And then this is a summary of the summary. Like this is summary, summary, summary style. Right. We're down to like the Cliff Notes of the Cliff Notes in the Book of Ether. But if you're trying to summarize things and remember that you're writing in gold plates and everything has a Cost. As far as space goes, what is the value of sticking being a large and mighty man in the records? Why. Why say that? If we're describing Jared, wouldn't you think the name of the guy would be worth mentioning before you mention the fact that he's large and mighty? [00:34:40] Speaker B: Yes. If his name wasn't Mahan Rai. Maury Ankumer. Because it honestly takes up about the same amount of letters as the brother of Jared. No. [00:34:48] Speaker A: Wow. [00:34:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Dang it. Yeah, yeah, it's about the same. It's about the same. I thought you were gonna say large and mighty man, but I was. I was doing the math. I was doing the quick math in my head, but I. Then I gave up. So, yes, you're taking up space. But, dude, Mahon Rai. Maury Ankumer. I'm just saying, like, I can imagine him not wanting to spell that out every time. [00:35:09] Speaker A: Corianthemer is also described in these terms, isn't he? He was just this massive guy. Like, it almost gives you the impression that Mormon and Moroni are like gym rats. Like, dude, he was swole. [00:35:22] Speaker B: He was like, there's the sacrilege I was waiting for. [00:35:26] Speaker A: Oh, it's going to get worse. [00:35:29] Speaker B: Dude. I need to. I still need to find a warning drop at some point, by the way. I just have it on a buzzer. All right, we're ready, dude. Our listeners at this point, they're either with us or they're not. All right, here we go. [00:35:43] Speaker A: Okay, so they're swole. [00:35:45] Speaker B: The thing is, by the way, like, that. I would be proud of that. I don't think that's sacrilegious at all. [00:35:50] Speaker A: No, that's okay. So this got me thinking. I started thinking about the undescribed characters of the scriptures that don't have physical descriptions. Isaiah. Even though he's not described physically, you have a description of Isaiah in your mind, do you not? [00:36:13] Speaker B: For sure, I do. [00:36:14] Speaker A: And Abinadi. [00:36:16] Speaker B: Totally. I do. But it's also because of Friedberg. [00:36:20] Speaker A: But yes, yes, yes. When we start talking about these undescribed prophets, let me ask you this question. Which of the prophets in your mind in the Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon, do you imagine as, like, a short, squat guy sitting in the corner, like, not. Not great hygiene or scraggly, not healthy, tall, narrow, you know, how do we picture them? And in my mind's eye, every one of these guys is like a freebird version of whoever they were, for better or for worse. [00:36:55] Speaker B: Totally. [00:36:55] Speaker A: Yep. [00:36:55] Speaker B: 100. That's such a great Point. [00:37:00] Speaker A: Okay, I'm going to say this, and I'm not going to try to be sacrilegious, but the sacrilege is part of my point. I don't know anyone out there in the world today who's worshiping fat Jesus. [00:37:12] Speaker B: It's true. No, that's true. But the thing is, do you think that, though there's historical precedent for that? I mean, were there a lot of fat people previous to 1965? [00:37:28] Speaker A: A lot fewer. [00:37:30] Speaker B: That's what I mean. I guess. [00:37:31] Speaker A: I think there's a lot fewer. [00:37:32] Speaker B: I do under. [00:37:32] Speaker A: You lived in a world where scarcity. [00:37:36] Speaker B: Okay, hold on. [00:37:36] Speaker A: Walking around. [00:37:38] Speaker B: I'm with you. I know I'm with you, but I'm with you. And I understand the point. Because you remember they tried to do some recreation, like, AI. Recreation of like, well, this is what Jesus might have looked like. And you know what I mean? It was just some scraggly kind of whatever. And a lot of people, I mean, maybe justifiably were very upset by this. Like, oh, hey, you're doing this to try to. You're doing this to try to. Yeah. But then you go, well, the scriptures say that it's not like he was, you know, the only physical prescription is. [00:38:17] Speaker A: Isaiah, which telling us that he's not beautiful. [00:38:20] Speaker B: That's exactly right. And so then you just go, like, would that change anything if he looked like that? [00:38:26] Speaker A: So, I mean, that's where I'm trying to hit. [00:38:28] Speaker B: Okay, well, good. [00:38:28] Speaker A: That's where I'm trying to hit. Sorry. [00:38:29] Speaker B: Then keep going. But I don't think that that's sacrilegious because I think I'm with you so far on the point you're making. [00:38:37] Speaker A: But why is it sacrilegious? If I say, you're right, why is that sacrilegious? And why would that change if he was. Would that change the atonement? [00:38:46] Speaker B: That's a great point. [00:38:47] Speaker A: And if he was, does it shatter my. My following of him? And then. And then here's the other thing. Why do we associate fat, which is a physical description, which inherently doesn't say good, bad or other, but yet we have so much negative connotation to. It becomes sacrilegious to even say. If I say fat Jesus, all of a sudden I'm making fun of him, or I'm saying something that's sacrilegious when it's a. It's a neutral physical description applied to a person that it's. It's shocking. Why do we have. [00:39:17] Speaker B: Well, not only that too, but in. In Certain cultures in the past, like, being large meant. Yeah, that's what I'm saying is by being large was a sign of, like, actual, like, abundance or wealth or like, you know what I mean? Like, it was, it was kind of the opposite of how our culture may or may not look on it right now. So, yeah, I, I, I, I'm happy that you're having this discussion. I'm interested in how this has to do with the brother of Jared being a beefcake. [00:39:47] Speaker A: I think, I think we look for heroes. [00:39:50] Speaker B: I agree. [00:39:52] Speaker A: And when we're looking for heroes, what it comes down to in my mind is ideals. We try to ascribe our ideals to the people that we want to follow. We're looking, I think it's human nature. We are wired and set to try to follow. [00:40:09] Speaker B: Yes. [00:40:10] Speaker A: And is that not the whole reason we're here? And Christ coming to set the example in the pattern? It's all wired in us to be able to come follow Him. And I think it creates ideals. We have ideals. And I'm not just going to say this. Physical ideals, we have spiritual ideals. We have physical ideals. We have ideals on what a family should look like. We have social, economic, socioeconomic ideals. If I'm not making this much money or if I don't have this house or if I don't have this car, then, then, then I'm not righteous. And we start to, we start to equate and correlate these ideals with righteousness to where if I say fat Jesus now, it sounds like he's an unrighteous person. Or if we say, do we look at people and if they're fired or if they're not doing well economically, do we equate that with spiritual lack of spirituality? And that's how they were viewing the people clearly in Alma 32 when they go to the Hill. And it was the, the people that were not doing so well financially, the people that weren't in certain fields of work that were looked down on because they were equating those ideals, financial ideals, with spiritual ideals as well, conflating the two and mixing that message. [00:41:44] Speaker B: And so let me ask you this, then. Why do you think, why do you think he wrote that he was a beefcake? [00:41:53] Speaker A: I don't know what his intentions were or why he included it, because you're. [00:41:58] Speaker B: Right, it takes up space. [00:42:01] Speaker A: But I mean, I can only comment on what it's done for me. Right. My reaction is I've started to think about why it's in there and what does it mean and why are these details. And for me, it almost looks like Moroni is valuing these traits, right? It looks like he's pointing it out wherever it is. I think. Here's what I think. We tear down ideals because as much as they can be good for us and something that we set to follow, they can be painful when we fall short of those ideals. When Christ comes and says, I need you to be perfect like God the Father is, he's exposed all of us for our not measuring up to those spiritual ideals. Right, we all fall short. Ideals can be painful, but that pain, and I'm going to take this back to weightlifting as we were talking about the brother's swole, the pain that you get when you're working out and the soreness that causes it, isn't that what drives the change and the progress and the making it work? And so when we say ideals can be painful because there's a lot of people that can't live up to that ideal for no fault of their own. Whether it's a physical ideal, a financial ideal. They're working their tail end off trying to make things work and they can't quite land the job or they keep getting shooken out or the economy's not been kind to them. But does that mean we erase the ideal? And I don't think so. I think the pain that we feel with those sometimes seemingly impossible goals that we set in front of us and that we're chasing, maybe the point isn't so much getting there, but how it shapes us as we're pursuing it. [00:43:53] Speaker B: I'm with you on that. [00:43:55] Speaker A: And just because not everyone can have the wife and the kids and the white picket fence and the whatever, you know, whatever we ascribe to the ideal doesn't mean it's not worthy of our trying to emulate and the impact it has on us as we try to. I don't know, Joseph Smith probably said it best in the Articles of Faith. If there's anything lovely or praiseworthy or of good report, we seek after these things. Just because that ideal doesn't seem to be manifesting itself in the way that we imagine it to in our life doesn't mean it's not the ideal that we don't still hold it up and try to follow that example. And Christ says, come follow me. And in what way was he physically perfect? Was he spiritually perfect? And I think in Christ there was a balance that he tried to balance all things. To take care of himself physically, to take care of himself spiritually, to even take care of his needs here in the world to have sufficient for his needs. I. Ideals can be painful, and it's hard and it's weird, and we have these stigmas and art flavors what we think about things. But at the same time, I think there's still a deeper layer of why these ideals are important and why we do that, and the importance of it bringing us the best version of us out of ourselves. [00:45:22] Speaker B: Do you think that. Yeah, and I don't think that. I think that it's awesome that we are told that he, you know, was a mighty person. Even if. That even if maybe we aren't physically mighty, I think that it can still be inspiring to go like, okay, but how else then can I stand tall? How else can I be a mighty person, even if it's not just, like, physically overpowering? And I also think that, like, wanting and having the desire and trying to achieve better physical health and being able to be strong in case, you know, we might need to endure hard things physically is also good advice. So I'm with you. I think that. I think that it is still. I think that it is still something to try to achieve, to live up to even the descriptions, even if, you know, I'm not saying that, like, if you're short, there's really, you know, you can't be like, well, I'm not just going to be able to be tall, but I'm just like, dude, I don't think that that's what it means to be mighty and. And big, you know, I guess so. I'm with you. I'm with you. [00:46:32] Speaker A: I'm with you, too. [00:46:33] Speaker B: Okay, let's keep going. [00:46:35] Speaker A: All right. [00:46:36] Speaker B: But it is nice being. But it is nice being 6:2 if we're told to be big. So I'm just like, well, I'm at least slightly above average height. And I didn't even have to try. [00:46:51] Speaker A: One. One last thing I wanted to hit in this chapter, and I know there's so many good things to talk about. I'm running to get there. [00:46:57] Speaker B: To the boats. [00:46:58] Speaker A: To the boats. I'm ready to get to the boats. [00:47:00] Speaker B: I'm ready for the boats. [00:47:02] Speaker A: As Ether 43,143. So much of these exchanges, when Jared tells his brother, go and pray for this. Go and pray for that. And it's like he goes to the Lord, and the Lord says, okay, I'll do it, and then just move on. And it seems like it's just such a quick man. I wish all my prayers were answered like that. God, can I have. Okay, Done. All right. Next thing. And we're just checking items off the list, and it seems so easy. 43. The Lord, in his response, says, and thus I will do unto thee, because this long time you have cried unto me. And I think that brings reality back into the conversation that he was having with the Lord, as much as it sounds like a one and done. And sometimes we're oversimplifying things. We look back in time, and we're trying to summarize what happened. Well, what happened? I asked the Lord if he would bless me with this, and he did. Okay. If we want to take the magnifying glass and go back to that experience, what was it really like? Well, you know, I was thinking about it. I was worried, is this the will of God? First, I need to make sure it's the will of God, because I don't want to ask for anything amiss. And I'm aligning myself in there and asking him and trying to find out and feeling like it is, and then just pleading with the Lord. And I don't think it's a coincidence that they're using the word here. That's translated into cried. Right? Unto me. You've cried unto me. We had the regional authority and state conference out here at Barcelona last year that sparked this whole thing for me. Talked about how in the beginning of the Book of Mormon, wetting their pillows with tears and what it means to cry unto the Lord. And this is a process. And so for anyone who looks at them and think that they had it easy or worry that you're not getting answers to your prayers, it's not just that they cried unto the Lord, but I mean, highlight the phrase, this long time, have you cried unto the Lord? And it is. It's a process, coming to know the Lord, getting the answer to your prayers. It's a process. And how many people, I think all of us at some point in our life have come across a thought or an idea that's made us wonder, is this true? Do I still believe in the Book of Mormon? Do I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet? Do I believe that God is there? Do I believe in the resurrection? Do I believe in fill in the blank? And maybe we cry to the Lord a little bit, or maybe we go through that jarring experience, and for that time, it takes us turning to the Lord, and we have that experience at that end, that resolution. We've talked about this in the New Testament, where we're talking about dissonance and resolution, but isn't that a part of the building of the faith. Isn't that part of coming to know God? And anyone who wants to know God, anyone who wants to follow him, be prepared for what that means to really follow God and what it takes to really build that testimony. And if you're going to value and appreciate that testimony, it's through this process of praying, not just once, but really thoroughly. Crying and seeking and trying to find the Lord. That's how you find him. [00:50:26] Speaker B: Let's talk about these boats. [00:50:28] Speaker A: Let's get to the boats. Yes. Should we talk about the boats? [00:50:31] Speaker B: Yes. [00:50:33] Speaker A: Tight, tight, like unto a dish. [00:50:36] Speaker B: Tight, tight, tight, tight. [00:50:38] Speaker A: Okay, to talk about the boats. For anyone who believes that the Bible is true and anyone who believes that the flood was global and wiped out life the whole world over. [00:51:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I would, I would think. [00:51:04] Speaker A: The book of Ether would be very important to you in answering some important questions, such as all the animal life died on this continent in the Americas. Then, then, then how do the animals come back to the Americas? And now you have a story about shortly after the flood where somebody takes seeds of every kind. And by the way, when we start going through this list of things, have you ever thought about what it would be like to transport Noah's ark, if you will, across, all over. Not just, I'm going to load all up in an ark. I'm going to take these guys on a journey several years all over, and then we're going to build barges, seven barges. Have you looked at the list of things they're taking? Swarms of bees. Oh, how are you doing? A 340 journey in the sea. 340 day journey in the sea with swarms of bees. [00:52:02] Speaker B: Sounds dangerous. [00:52:04] Speaker A: But if you bring all of these seeds and plants and you don't have anything to pollinate it on the other side of the world, how's that going to go for you? [00:52:11] Speaker B: It's true. Not well, no. [00:52:14] Speaker A: It's interesting that. So here's a couple funny things when we start talking about contrast and opposites. What was the purpose of building the Tower of Babel? [00:52:27] Speaker B: To take a shortcut to heaven. [00:52:29] Speaker A: To take a shortcut to heaven. And it says an interesting phrase in the Bible when we read it, that we might take a name upon ourselves and they're doing this. That they can get a new name, right? That they can get a name and come into heaven. Just some interesting things that it says about that in the Old Testament and trying to get a new name. It's funny on that one extreme, in the Old Testament they're doing it to Get a name. And yet on the other extreme here, with the brother of Jared, he's not even mentioned his name. It's almost like he's given his name up. Opposite extremes. [00:53:04] Speaker B: I like that. [00:53:10] Speaker A: And all of a sudden, I've lost the other extreme that I was going to talk about. What were we talking about before I hit that? [00:53:17] Speaker B: The boats. If you believe that there was a global flood, you would want to have some holes fixed is where you were going. Seeds, bees. You had that whole thing. [00:53:30] Speaker A: Yeah, Sorry. Nate, here's a question. [00:53:32] Speaker B: How far after the ark do you think this was? Does it say not long? It's got to be close, right? [00:53:39] Speaker A: Because Babel, the Tower of Babel was not long after that. Yeah. However you want to call it, not long after the flood. And isn't that the idea when we talked about the Tower of Babel and them building, it wasn't the idea. If God sends another flood here on the earth, we're not going to die. We're going to build something tall enough that if those waters rise, we're going to be safe. The idea that we can one up God, whatever he's going to send us, we can do better. We don't need God. We need ourselves to be able to survive. And this is. We're not going to rely on. See, that's another extreme. And I'm glad you said that. When we talk about these opposites, the idea that lean on man and not so that we can overcome God, we don't need God to get us into heaven. We're going to enter it on our own. We're not worried about God sending us floods because we have a way to save ourselves. A lot of the story about the Tower of Babel is a story about taking salvation out of the hands of Christ and putting it on themselves that they were going to save themselves. And the opposite here is we're not going to rely on society to save us. In fact, we are withdrawing from society. We're not going to rely on the markets and the stores and that we're taking our own supplies and our seeds and our. And our bees to be able to provide for ourselves. It's interesting, the opposites here that these two stories are setting up. Love it. [00:55:07] Speaker B: Let's talk about these boats. [00:55:10] Speaker A: Okay, One other thing I've got to pull in this verse two, chapter two. They did prepare. They lay snares to catch fowls of the air. They're bringing birds. They're bringing everything, man. And they also to prepare a vessel in which they did Carry with them the fish of the waters. Dude, they brought an aquarium with them. Did you. Did that thought ever? [00:55:32] Speaker B: No. [00:55:33] Speaker A: When you picture the Jaredites traveling around, did you picture them with this massive aquarium of fish? [00:55:38] Speaker B: How big are these boats? [00:55:40] Speaker A: That's the size of a tree is what it says. [00:55:42] Speaker B: I mean, like, a redwood. [00:55:45] Speaker A: That's a great question. What tree are we talking about? Because if this was a. [00:55:48] Speaker B: Or like, this terrible peach tree that I have in my backyard that I seriously just need to, like, stop being so stubborn. Dude, I gotta tell you about this sometime, but. All right, maybe we'll do it on the air one of these times. [00:55:58] Speaker A: Dude, I thought you were gonna cut that thing down. I thought you finally made up your. [00:56:01] Speaker B: Mind, dude, when you just. Dude, I've had so many, actually, other profound breakthroughs with the three trees that I have in my backyard that you. Whenever you're ready for that. Whenever you're ready for that lesson on the podcast. I've actually. Dude, I learned a lot from these three freaking trees in my backyard. But. All right, keep going. [00:56:19] Speaker A: So. [00:56:19] Speaker B: No, so it's so this. We're talking a redwood tree and not this. Not this feeble tree that I need to cut down in my backyard. Oh, I hate that peach tree. Just psychs me out every year. [00:56:31] Speaker A: Dude, they. So they're. They're carrying. They're carrying in their boat. Bees. Birds. [00:56:37] Speaker B: Birds. [00:56:38] Speaker A: Bees and fish. [00:56:39] Speaker B: Yep. Okay. [00:56:40] Speaker A: Fish in a boat. [00:56:42] Speaker B: All right. I mean, that makes sense if they're not freshwater fish or. I mean, if they're freshwater fish and they need to not be getting salt watered. [00:56:51] Speaker A: Yeah, well, a lot of these things make sense from an agricultural point of view, too, especially going over to an area that might not be prime for you to just live off the land. The land has been wasted, and no one's been cultivating it. Yeah, they came prepared, these boats. [00:57:13] Speaker B: Okay, here we go. Been waiting my whole life for this discussion. Let me ask you one question before I give you a thought. [00:57:22] Speaker A: Okay. [00:57:23] Speaker B: So we know more or less, kind of what the Ark looked like, right? Like, how accurate. How accurate do you think the depictions are in, you know, like, movies and such? I mean, did it have a sale? [00:57:42] Speaker A: That's a good question. [00:57:44] Speaker B: Did boats. Did boats this long ago have sails? [00:57:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And so when we're talking specifically about Jared and his family, it says that the wind drove them forth, and so it makes you think that maybe they have a cell. And even though they have these tight vessels, I wonder if this hole that they put on the top. I wonder if they also didn't have a hatch, and maybe they spent a lot of time above. [00:58:14] Speaker B: I do think that, by the way, when we were talking about this, I do think that, I do think that it was, I think that they were, they've had to have been at least big enough that you could still go out and get some sunlight. [00:58:24] Speaker A: And so here's, here's my thought process with this too. I agree with you. I think they've been outside for some sunlight. And you talk about sales. [00:58:32] Speaker B: Yes. [00:58:32] Speaker A: If they're up on top, maybe they do have a sale to push them and drive them. An argument against them having cells is the fact that this journey took 340 days to get to the new World. I don't, I don't know that travel normally took that long. Even then, I don't think Lehi's family takes that long to get there. [00:58:52] Speaker B: I don't, I don't think, I don't think they have sales. [00:58:54] Speaker A: But okay, they, they, if they did have cells, what did that look like when you have to bop back up? [00:59:02] Speaker B: That's my question, is, is that the idea would be, is that the shape of the boat functionally served, that in case you were, in case you were flipped over, you were okay because you had a hole on the top and on the bottom so that. You know what I mean? Even if you were getting tossed around in the sea, you weren't stuck. If you, if the boat got flipped upside down, you know, kind of like capsized and, and you, it's like, okay, you could still function, top or bottom. [00:59:31] Speaker A: Yeah. But I wonder, I might be wrong about that if. No, I think you're right. I, Well, I wonder how much rolling it did. I think clearly there's cases when, when a wave hits you and it rolls you around, you're going to be tossed and rolled. Yeah. Yes. But I don't, I don't think of it as maybe it was permanently upside down or right side up. I don't know if it was ambidextrous or if it was built in the way that one, one side's always up and one side's down, where temporarily it can be shifting, but it's going to right itself. I, I don't know. It's a good question. [01:00:07] Speaker B: I'm, I'm also just curious as to the actual, like, technique, technology of the times too, because, like, this is, this is like thousands and thousands of years ago, right? [01:00:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:00:20] Speaker B: You, you, you're the one that has the degree in this. Like, dude, just tell me if you're like, hey, man. No. They found boats with sails dating back 15,000 years. [01:00:30] Speaker A: Then it's just like, no, no, no, we don't have. So we don't have a ton going back to the time of the brother of Jared. We don't, we don't have a lot of information, a lot of this. We're going to extrapolate based off of what we, what we have in maybe periods where we have more records or. I, I don't know. I don't know that we have a lot. When we start looking at ocean travel fast forward thousands of years from when the Jaredites left, you don't have people even in the time of Lehi, typically making transatlantic voyages. There is some evidence that this might be happening, but most of the time they're, they're within sight of shore. And all you're doing is hopping along the shoreline to the next town where you resupply and then hopping along the shoreline. It's just a method to travel across the water from land to land to land. You're not making these. Okay, I'm setting off out into the unknown and hoping I land somewhere on the other side. You're, you're just following shorelines and popping in from town to town to repopulate. You didn't have the kind of vessels that, that would withstand open water, deep sea, going out anywhere. [01:01:43] Speaker B: Sure. [01:01:44] Speaker A: And so when they talk about these not being built after the MANNER OF Man, 100%, these, these actually sound a lot that the barges that they're making sound a lot more modern to what we have today than they do boats from even time periods thousands of years. [01:02:05] Speaker B: After these guys, they either sound like alien spacecraft or submarines, but yes, they do. [01:02:13] Speaker A: They do. And I also think it's an interesting point when we talk about 340 day journey and maybe their crossing is a lot longer than the crossing of Lehigh. Geographically speaking, maybe they're crossing the Pacific instead of the Atlantic or the Atlantic instead of. Maybe the path that they're taking is different than other paths. And also something else to consider. The brother of Jared and his family here. And why do I keep calling it brother of Jared? Isn't it just faster to say Jared when he's the one leading the people? Anyways, anyhow, Jared and his family made several versions of these on the way to where they are to build this last bark that's going to take them or across the ocean. They crossed many waters to get to where they were. And the idea that they're crossing so many waters and all these rivers and streams that they need to build barges for. And the idea that this ocean journey takes so long for them to complete, I think also signals that this was not long after the flood and we still have the waters receding from off the face of the earth. This was not an over the night the earth dries out experience. I think having these large bodies of water that they're having to overcome sounds like it fits, scientifically speaking, in a time when the world was a lot more wet and you had high river levels, high ocean levels, high water levels everywhere. Yeah, but let's get into the science of these boats. You talked about cells. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe just like they could be above the boat, they could set up a cell if they needed to and take it down. But where space is a premium, maybe not the length of the journey sure makes it sound like it could have been a journey without much cell assisting on the trip. Should. [01:04:15] Speaker B: Let's get into the, let's get into these. Let's get into the fish. Yeah, and, and kind of the, the way that there's like a function scientifically, I think, I think the, the reason that I enjoy this discussion because like a lot of things. How, what would, if you were, if you were Joseph Smith making this up, would you consider a lot of the scientific details of why these boats work and why functionally it makes sense to have the hole on the top and the bottom and how you could not have fires inside and the reason why you couldn't because the oxygen getting depleted and all these things and about how you needed somewhere for the waste to be going when you needed to go to the bathroom and things like that. It's like all of these things and that if you have air pressure trapped inside the boat, you could actually, you know, pull a cork out of the bottom of the boat. Yeah, but, yeah, but exactly. And, and, and so, so let's, let's kind of talk a little bit about the, the. I think that it's important to at least acknowledge how scientifically sound this is. [01:05:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I agree. When, when you start looking at the problems that they're going to have and the phrase keeps going back to is tight like unto a dish. And I think it's easy for us to imagine in a world of Tupperware we just stick the lid on and it's, it's sealed and it's tight and water doesn't come in or out or air doesn't come in or out. [01:05:47] Speaker B: I want that. [01:05:47] Speaker A: And. Yeah, but, but they don't have Tupperware back For at least to the best of our knowledge. I. I am a big fan. I'm going to. I'm going to go off on a. I'm ready. [01:05:58] Speaker B: Don't hit me. [01:06:00] Speaker A: I'm a big fan of. I feel like we apply too much bias on what they had or didn't have based on a simple thought that we are advanced because we can look at our recent history and see all of the advancements we've made and all the progress and all of the developments. And I think that we apply that to history too much. We go back and say there has always been progress. And so therefore, the further back you go, the less technology, the less what? Less sophistication. The less whatever that they had. And I think that we. What's the right word for this? But not correctly. We inappropriately or we wrongfully attribute to them limitations are based on our lack of understanding. We don't know all of how things worked, what they had, what they didn't have. Sorry, that's just my. [01:07:02] Speaker B: No, I appreciate that. Let them have it. [01:07:06] Speaker A: But. But if you have a dish and you're putting water in it or a liquid in it and it's not dripping all over the place, that's why you have the dish, to be able to keep it and retain it. I think that's what they're referring to, right, Is you have this dish that water's not coming in or out. And I imagine that they're building these out of wood. It seems like a logical assumption to be making Noah's ark is made out of wood. And in order to make it watertight so that the water didn't permeate into the wood, they had to seal it with a tar or a pitch. And they pitched it on the outside, and they pitched it on the inside. And the word for the pitch that they used is the same word in Hebrew that they use for covering or, as you know, atonement. They had to atone from the boat on the outside, and they had to atone for the boat on the inside so that water couldn't get through. And I think there's obvious symbolism with that. Even with these arcs or these barges that the brother of Jared and his family are making is they have to. They have to seal it on the outside and on the inside. And I think you make this connection, Nate, when you talk about cleansing the inner vessel, the need to think about the inside as well as the outside and keeping that sealed in a sealed. [01:08:24] Speaker B: Environment, and to have a hole so that you actually can literally cleanse the inner vessel. [01:08:29] Speaker A: And that's the problem. Right. If I seal this boat, we're in trouble. [01:08:35] Speaker B: Yes, we are in trouble. That's going to be a short trip. [01:08:39] Speaker A: It's going to be a short trip. If it's sealed, the air can't go through or come in and it's still there. You're going to get carbon dioxide. I wanted to say. Yeah, I was starting to lead with monoxide, but it's not monoxide that comes from combustion. Carbon dioxide. Right. It's what we're exhaling is going to build up of carbon dioxide and your oxygen is going to be depleted. And you brought up the point when. When they say, what do we do for light? And the Lord's like, you can't light a fire in that. [01:09:12] Speaker B: Think about. [01:09:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I think we think about it from a supplies issue. You've got tar or a flammable, sticky substance attached to wood, and you want to light a fire in that tinder box. That's a bad idea. But. But you mentioned the oxygen. If you have a boat and you only have so much air and you light a fire, what's going to happen? It's going to burn all of the oxygen and you're going to. You're going to suffocate. [01:09:37] Speaker B: Yes. [01:09:38] Speaker A: So there's got to be some scientific considerations of how do we make this work? And you talk about the holes. [01:09:45] Speaker B: Can we. Before we do that, I want to just. I want to emphasize something that you said, though, because the covering, and the symbolism of the covering, too, is so that what? So that they can be protected as they basically are swallowed up into the depths of the ocean. And it helps them survive. It protects them. So this covering that they're receiving is a protection from the elements. It's a protection whatever, because these boats are literally going to be baptized. And the covering is the thing that basically is their salvation or their safety or their saving. And one last thing that I wanted to say on this too, though, is that I feel like a lot of the times, the, the biggest. The biggest kind of thoughts and pro or not profound, maybe they were profound to me. You. You're probably already like, no, bro, I already thought of this stuff. But do we also receive a covering on the outside and the inside symbolic of these boats? I would argue yes. Right. At least, you know, those of us that have, you know, been through the temple and things like that, too. And a lot of the. A lot of the blessings and the covenants associated with that I think are at least worth thinking about. And it's not necessarily something that we need to go into detail and talk about, but there is. I do. I do really like the idea of, you know, as we partake of the sacrament. It's. This is sanctified emblems that represent a cleansing force from within, within side of our bodies and the Spirit as being a thing that cleanses us from within. Right? Baptism. Baptism is kind of like these boats, right? Like we. We die and reborn kind of in the physical sense. And then the cleansing power of the Holy Ghost is the thing that cleanses us from within. So I think there's a. As I've really started thinking about that, I really just like the. Very much the cleansing from within. Cleansing from. We talked a little bit about Pehoran when Captain Moreau and I sent him the letter, when he's basically saying, hey, the more important thing to do is to cleanse from the inside first. We're coming back to kill all y'all. If you don't support us before we can fight any of our external battles. Think of again, what did Christ first do in Third Nephi when he came to the people in America? Did he go around healing everybody's knees and backs and healing the sick and the afflicted? What did he do first? He baptized everybody, right? He set up his church. He made it possible for the cleanse from within before he started blessing and healing and all these things. So I only wanted to. Just to really highlight and drive that point home. I. You know, those of us that have made certain covenants and wear a protective, you know, garment, you know, physically, spiritually, whatever, I just. We also continue to represent both a covering from within and a covering from without as well. [01:13:10] Speaker A: I. I love. I love that. And the Lord has always had laws governing what goes on the inside as well as the protection on the outside. If we look at the first commandment that's given to Adam and Eve, the. The first commandments that they're dictate what they can and what they can't eat, and then soon after, they're out of the Garden of Eden. I mean, you look at the Jews and the laws they have regarding what's kosher, The Lord has always provided direction for the inner vessel, covering as well as the outer vessel that he provides us with. And I think there's a lot of imagery in the temple with this as well. And I'm glad that you keep taking this back to that. And the temple, we do put on ourselves a covering, an atonement that we wear to keep us shielded from the storms from the waves, from the water, that we might be safe and whole on the inside. And then we talk about what it means to have clean thoughts, to have a clean mind, and symbolically what we're taking in our body to represent that inner vessel. I love those connections. And something I feel like we should talk about in connection with this is where are they headed? And this idea of the Promised Land, because the Promised Land comes up in a lot of different discussions with Israel, who has to cross the Red Sea in order to get to the Promised Land, with Lehi and his family, who have to cross the ocean to get to the Promised Land to now Jared and his brother, who are going to be doing the same thing, crossing the sea to get to the Promised Land. And the idea is, what is the Promised Land supposed to symbolize or represent? And I think we can all say that is this not our journey back to God? And we talk about getting to heaven and going to God as the Promised Land. But something that I think is worth bringing up in context of this discussion is where was God here on Earth? Was he not already here in the beginning with Adam and Eve? In a land called paradise in the Garden of Eden? And so if we want to return, if you will, to the presence of God, where do we find God? Isn't it back in paradise is the Promised Land? So here's what I'm trying to say. We look at this linearly as we started in point A and we're going to travel to point Be, and here we are on Earth and we're going to get to. Our roadmap is to God and where we're headed. But I'm trying to take it and reflect on this in a circular. We started in the presence of God, and what we're talking about isn't a destination as much as a restoration. How do I get back to the presence of God? And so the Promised Land not as somewhere we've never been before, but how do we get back to where we were and take that back to the temple and what it is. And the temple is the journey out of Eden, the journey away from the presence of God, but it's a restoration in bringing us back to the presence of God. And you don't have the presence of God without that historical context of leaving the presence of God in order to come back to the presence of God. This is a temple trip. This is a temple journey. And the journey of the Promised Land, the story that we keep reading about in the scriptures, it is the endowment. It is the process in which we have been separated from God, we're returning to God. We talked about the Hebrew word for heavens being shamayim. There is water. And so if we believe that we left the presence of God from heaven to come here on earth, it's a journey through the waters, a separation. We left him, and so therefore the journey back to him is also passing through the waters to get back to where he was. Eden was created because water covered the earth and it receded, and it came from these waters to the beginning. If we go back to the creation story, it was water covered the face of the earth, and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters, and he had to cause that water to recede. A lot of these connections are also associated with birth. We talk about these arcs in terms of it being like a womb where the baby is safe in a sack of water, if you will. And that's where the journey begins. And we left that. And then a man must be born again. You go through this process and coming back out of this. There's a lot of symbolism and layers with these stories. And this idea of returning to the presence of God is returning to paradise. I think some people struggle with where is the modern temple in the ancient world? And I feel like when you read these stories, you see, you can't help but see the modern temple in every story of the ancient world. Yes, it's always been about, how do I get these people back to me? And the story of our life isn't one linear line. And we're headed out to God. It's a boomerang. We started with God. How do we return and be restored to him? And that's the story of the temple. [01:18:49] Speaker B: It's awesome. [01:18:51] Speaker A: Which I think fits super well. I mean, we are focusing on the boats. And let's get back to the boats. We'll talk about them. But before I do, let's talk a little bit about the mountain to getting the directions to the stones. This is temple. What's happening? He's going up into the mountain. And what's the temple called? The Mountain of the Lord. He's withdrawing. He's going up in there. And there is a veil that covers the presence of the Lord. And he is being presented at the veil. And the hand of the Lord extends itself out through the veil. And he sees this. This is. This is very much a temple experience for the brother of Jared. And he's coming to the Lord. Doing what? Asking for further light and knowledge and seeking to bring the people that he represents into the presence of the Lord, into the promised land. So there's. There's interesting connections and something that the scriptures say over and over, he that has eyes to see or ears to hear or hearts that will listen, understand, it's there. The symbolism's there, the power's there. But oftentimes, those that have not been initiated in doubt or who have not been through that process don't understand it. They don't see it. But when you start making those connections and they start falling in, it becomes a powerful experience. [01:20:25] Speaker B: Even the process in which he eventually, you know, got to enter into the presence of God was very much started out just by hearing his voice only. Right. And even the. Isn't that the process? I think that all of us kind of have to learn to go through if we do want to see the face of God is like, we're told that that's a process, line upon line, and that if we can't even have faith when we can't see right. We need to be able to have faith by hearing the word of God. We need to be able to, you know, reading the word of God and listening to that still small voice. And that as we do that and as we begin to show and exercise faith on that. I mean, in the story, it's interesting, kind of the wording of it where Christ is basically like, because of your faith, I can't hide from you. Like, I. You. There's nothing I can do to be kept from you being able to see me because of your faith. My. That's a really interesting way to phrase that. And I'm sure that there. I'm sure that that means something, you know, deeper. [01:21:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I want to drop a line here from President Nielsen from his last conference talk in October 2024. And it's easy to find because it's all italicized. Like, it's even emphasized in the talk. When you go read it, it's just isolated from the rest of the message. And he says, here is my promise to you. And it's a promise. Here's a promise from a prophet. Today, every sincere seeker of Jesus Christ will find him in the temple. [01:22:16] Speaker B: Powerful. [01:22:17] Speaker A: It's powerful. And my wife and I are preparing to go to the temple again here in December. And it feels weird to say that. Right. It's kind of cool. When we lived in Utah, it was easy to go to the temple every week. I mean, you can drive there 10 minutes, no problem. But when you're out here and you have to buy train tickets and Plan ahead and schedule where you're going to stay and schedule with the appointment or with the temple, what sessions or what work you're going to do. There's some preparation that goes into it, but it's kind of fun. I kind of like there's trade offs, right. One, it's nice. Obviously it's nice to be next to a temple and be able to go whenever you want. But there's something nice about the excitement that comes from planning a trip and thinking about it and having it on your mind and making that effort and preparing for it. It's different than oh, should we just go to the temple? Just going like it almost becomes a little bit casual when you're living next to it. And so something I've appreciated about being about here, as much as we've missed the temple, we've also found the temple in a new sort of way that the, the excitement that comes for preparing for the next trip and, and building up for that and thinking about it and what do I want to get out of it when I come there. And the cool thing is when you're, when you're visiting the temple and you're out of town, it's not like you got a bunch of other things to do. You're, you're out of your home, you don't have all the things that you normally do. You don't have your work, you don't have whatever right you, you end up spending. It's kind of cool because you, you get to know the people that are there. You go through the session or whatever and at the end of the night you like, you know, good night. And they're like, yeah, we'll see you tomorrow. Because, because everybody, it's like the same group of people that you're with and when you're there, you knock out a bunch of work that day, you go to bed and you wake up the next morning and you do it again. Like it's not like you just go and do one quick session and you're done. It becomes like this marathon of sessions. You're trying to make up for the temple work you haven't been able to do in a period of time. So it's not super convenient to not have a temple. But there are trade offs and blessings in this preparing for the temple, that these words from President Nelson come back to my mind and really weigh heavy on me every time I prepare for the temple and what can I do to find him there this next time I go and will I see him? Will finding him Be like the brother of Jared? Do I get to see the hand of the Lord? And to me, to kind of take this full circle to where we began with and talking about those ideals, to me, that's an ideal. Seeing the hand of the Lord, seeing the face of the Lord, seeing the Lord in person, to me is an ideal. And is it something that we've all done or experienced or we're all going to. Does it hurt? Because I haven't been able to, or we haven't, or we don't, or it doesn't matter. To me, that's still the ideal. Whether. Whether it's happened or whether it hasn't happened. It's something that I am actively chasing and I want. And I'm not going to be discouraged because I don't have it or if I haven't had it or whatever. It's something that still drives me forward, that I actively seek because I. It's an ideal. It's. It's. It's something I hold up as a target. And if I. If I miss the target, that's all right. I'm still shooting for it. I'm still holding it up and aiming for it because that's something I want to hit. [01:25:49] Speaker B: That's awesome. That thought terrifies me. [01:25:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:25:54] Speaker B: Because. [01:25:54] Speaker A: Terrifying thought. [01:25:55] Speaker B: Because there is. There is a. Yeah, there's a level of commitment, man, that would have to come with that. And that's why I'm like, it's one of the few things where I kind of sympathize with the children of Israel a little bit, where when Moses, like, hey, God wants to see all of you, they were like, you go. You go ahead and go do that for us. You go ahead and. You go ahead and take care of that for us. I'm like, I like the idea that President Nelson can be the one taking care of that for the rest of us. But I know that that's not a righteous way of thinking, so I will repent. I'm just being real, dog. I'm just keeping it real, dude. [01:26:36] Speaker A: You could be real. That's good that the real is right. [01:26:42] Speaker B: So there's wisdom in having two of these stones in these boats, because you can put them on the two outsides, and then you don't have shadows cast on the different parts of the boat, because if you basically had the one fire in the middle, you would still get. Get dark spaces in the corners. Most likely. You had talked a little bit about. Somebody had done a little bit of a science project where they filled a boat like this kind of general shape with smoke. And had talked about how you could actually have the hole on the top and the bottom open at the same time. Do you want to. Do you want to describe that better than I'm doing? [01:27:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I do. And I'm trying to look for this video because it's not the best done video, but it kind of is at the same time. And I can't remember the guy's name, and I wanted to give him the. Give him the credit. Here, Here it is. The guy. It's a YouTube video he posted in 2008. And he goes by the name of brother of Steve. So I don't know, maybe he's got a brother named Steve. But the guy, he does a fantastic job explaining this. He takes a Tupperware container and he takes his sink and he fills it full of water. And he says, okay, let's start with just having this door or not this door, this hole at the top that they're going to open for air. And he drills a hole in the roof of this thing. And then what he does to try to represent that, because you can't see air moving very easily, but if you fill the air with particles, then you can see the air, right? So he fills this boat, this Tupperware container full of smoke, and you've got this massive hole that he's drilled into the top of that, and he puts it out on the water, and then he shows the camera the smoke's not. I mean, it trickles out of the top, but it's not moving out of the top. And the problem with just having a single hole at the top of this boat is there's no airflow. There's no air movement. You've got to have a second hole. If air is going to be going out, it's got to have somewhere where it's coming in. If it's trying to do both in the same hole, it just kind of gets trapped and it stops. So then he drills a second hole in the bottom of the boat. And what he does, because you've got your buoyancy, right? And if the boat sits deeper in the water, the water is going to fill up in that hole, however far it goes, until it reaches that point. So what he does is he builds like a little, like a well, a wall that goes around the hole so that the water can come up that column and not flood into the boat, but you still have this space. And then. And then he puts this Tupperware container back in the water. And what's Naturally happening is that the buoyancy of this thing, it's bobbing up and down. And as it bobs, the water pushes up into that column. And what that does is it pushes the air out of the top of the hole, and it pushes the air out of the top of the hole. And then the boat kind of rises back up. The water in the column sucks back down, and now it creates a vacuum and it sucks air in. And so what you're doing is you're essentially pumping the air out and forcing fresh air in. By having two holes in the boat, you've created a very simple pump, but a mechanical feature that would keep the air fresh so that the people don't have stale air or die from too much carbon dioxide. [01:30:04] Speaker B: Joseph Smith didn't make this up. [01:30:07] Speaker A: No, no. And what you were saying, Nate, to have somewhere for the waste to go. The fact that you can shovel out the. You know, in ancient times, even. Even in Christ's time, when I talk about ancient, I'm thinking here, 4,000, but even 2,000 years ago, you have two level houses. A lot of the houses in Jerusalem are two level houses. And the rooms upstairs are where the people sleep. And they have holes in the floor that come down to the main floor. The main floor is where you kept the animals in your garage, if you will. And you filled the garage with straw because the animals go to the bathroom. But then the people who use the bathroom on the upstairs floor, it drops down into the straw. And then what you're doing is you're shoveling all the straw up that collects all this waste and you're taking it out to the dung heap. Well, if you've got straw for the animals and for you, that you're using as a bathroom, and if you're just collecting that for a year, that's not. That's a problem. But if you have. If you have an area where you've got this hole as well that you can just drop it in or dump it down into the ocean and you're not having to deal with it. You can click your. You can keep your inner vessel clean. You're keeping it clean from bad air, you're keeping it clean from waste buildup, there's more ways than one that you're keeping that inner vessel clean. And the functionality of having these two. [01:31:29] Speaker B: Holes is impressive and just like the scientific accuracy. And know how I just. Again, I have a hard time believing that a young man was making all of this up on the spot and having it be scientifically sound as it Is I think that again, just. You would expect if somebody was making it up, they would be putting sails on the boats and they would be putting rudders on the boats. And, you know, you would. You would definitely be doing. You would. You would be referencing things that you knew or understood. You wouldn't be coming up with kind of these way outside of the box things that, again, happen to be very scientifically sound, in my opinion. [01:32:12] Speaker A: Well, especially, let's look at the timeline Joseph Smith's writing. This isn't. Isn't the steam engine kind of making its way into early American history? And they're doing all these things with these canals, and if you're looking at these boats and these big wheels that are powering them or the steam and, and thinking, man, maybe they could have taken advantage of steam back then and used this process to kind of motor. Like, if you're just trying to, like, create this voyage off of what's around you and what's familiar and make this up, I don't know that you get to. Yeah, I'm going to make this watertight vessel that can go down into the ocean 60ft and Bob back up. [01:32:48] Speaker B: And that. That's an air pump that basically. But the thing is that you could also fill it up with air, with the air pressure, pull the bottom thing out to clean out the bottom without the boat singing. It's just, it's. It's shockingly more sophisticated than simply, here's a little seed pod out in the middle of the ocean floating around. [01:33:08] Speaker A: And. And what was the dang video. The girl from Australia set a record like the. One of the youngest people to circumnavigate the globe on her own. She's doing this in the sailboat. And right towards the end, like, the whole video, I think, gives me a new appreciation for the story of the brother and Jared, because as she's out there sailing, she gets to a point where there is no wind and, and she's stuck and, and she's just sitting there, you know, desperate for days, like the boat's not going anywhere and, and you might think, well, the wind's going to pick up eventually you're going to get there. But here's the thing. She has food supplies that are going to last a certain amount of time. And, and if, if the wind doesn't pick up and get her back to where she needs to be before her food supplies run out, then. Then she's dead. Even if the boat does get her to where she needs to be. Right. There's some concerns there. She. She. She has to deal with her sanity, being all alone and not having society that she's interacting with or dealing with. There's a lot of things I don't think we consider when we talk about the brother of Jared and these boats doing this journey with. With freshwater fish tanks and. And how are you cycling that? And. And the bees and the swarms and the animals and the. Just an interesting and interesting journey. But right towards the end of her journey, she gets hit with a massive wave that drives the sailboat down like 60ft underwater. And. And because the sailboat is sealed tight like a dish that it's built for things like this, it can pop back up to the surface. And it does. Right. It eventually come and float right back up to the top. But they had to build it so that it could be underwater and that it is going to be able to ride itself, but it can still be rolling around. And so when they're. Yeah, it's terrifying. It was a good movie worth watching, but it adds perspective to these stories. I don't think Joseph Smith could have envisioned these watertight sailboats that we have today and how they make these journeys and how they can survive the storms. When he's creating the story of the Jaredites and putting it into your point of what you're hitting on. [01:35:31] Speaker B: The book's true. There it is. We are at 95 minutes. Anything else we need to squeeze in, I guess, this week? [01:35:42] Speaker A: I'm sorry, I'm. I'm gonna. I'm gonna close my mouth. I mean, we go this. This week is 1 through 11, but. But really, these are the highlights. We had fun with it, and I feel like we got a lot of good content in there. I'm okay. I'm at peace. [01:35:59] Speaker B: I'm at peace. We appreciate everybody listening. We really do. We appreciate you sharing with your friends and family. Appreciate the comments, questions that you send us, the insights that you send us. We love hearing what you guys think about this. We love you. Jason loves you, me, your friend, and the show's producer, Nate. I love you. Send any questions or comments to [email protected] we've only got a few episodes left, maybe ever, maybe just till the end of the year, but I guess we'll see. Until then, I guess we will wrap it up for this week. Until next week.