Helaman 7 - 12

[00:00:15] Speaker A: Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the add on Education network. The podcast where we take a look at the weekly come follow me discussion and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here in the studio with our friend and this show's producer, Nate Pfeiffer. [00:00:31] Speaker B: What's up? [00:00:33] Speaker A: Hey, Nate. [00:00:34] Speaker B: How are you doing, buddy? [00:00:34] Speaker A: Dude, fantastic. Happy Labor Day weekend as we're recovering from a three day break. [00:00:40] Speaker B: Recovering from. That's right. Those of us with kids are. Yes, but they're back in school today. [00:00:46] Speaker A: When you have to have a vacation from the vacation. [00:00:48] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I mean, my favorite part of vacation is the chance to get to hang out with my kids and force myself not to work. So, yeah, my vacation was good at that, so it was good. I'm glad you're still here in the country. Back actually in the studio. We got this week and one more week with you, right? [00:01:09] Speaker A: One more week. [00:01:09] Speaker B: Yep. [00:01:10] Speaker A: Two weeks from here. [00:01:11] Speaker B: All right. And then we're back on the international call. [00:01:14] Speaker A: Back, back. Doing it from the distance. [00:01:16] Speaker B: All right, what do we got this week? [00:01:18] Speaker A: This week we're talking really focusing on Nephi. And this is one of the stories I think most of us are very familiar with when we would talk about Nephi's discouragement at the wickedness of the people praying on the tower. And then you have the murder of the chief judge and some of the chaos that ensues there, and the sealing power of the priesthood really is what this week's. Okay. [00:01:41] Speaker B: Yeah, let's do it. I don't know if this one's going to be a super long episode, but let's just go. Let's go meet in potatoes and let our listeners move on with their lives. [00:01:49] Speaker A: Let's do it. You know, it's interesting rolling into this week, you know, of course. Of course Nephi is going to be calling out the murder of a chief judge because we didn't have enough of that happening in the last ten years. I mean, you had Pahoran, right? And then you can't really say his next son was. He was murdered, but it wasn't for the same reasons. But then you have Helaman. He's okay. He. But there's a plot to kill him. And you have all of these assassination attempts. Who is it? Caesar takes the seat because Nephi actually steps down. And maybe Nephi is saving his life from this. Right? He's pulling an Alma and stepping away from the chief judge position, gives it to Caesar. And what happens to Caesar? He gets murdered. And then Alma's going to call out another person getting murmured, murdered. And what is the state of the country where you're continually killing your chief judge? What's the right way to put it? Your figurehead, the person that stands at the head of your country, if you're constantly trying to kill that guy, shows a lot of decay, erosion. But I think you see a lot of dissatisfaction with the people, the general, the masses. And I think even with the Gadianton robbers, you see a grassroots movement of, and maybe even going through a lot of the Book of Mormon with the king men versus the free men. Ever since you have this judgment seat, taking over the monarchy, you continually have this grassroots movement grasping, trying to take power, trying to take matters into their own hand. And if they can't, at the very least trying to undermine the power that is. So there's a little bit of that going on, and I don't know if there's a commentary for that today. It's just interesting to see the decay of this nation. [00:04:04] Speaker B: My thought on that is, who would want that job if everybody just keeps getting, like, killed? It's like, who wants to continue to step up to that plate? And maybe that's where there's kind of an interesting parallel to not even just like our country, but the world at large, right? Is that who's willing to risk their life to go do that job? Unless. I think it's one of two things. One, they're the most moral, amazing, truly inspired to try to save the world, or they're a person that likes and enjoys power and is willing to risk their life to try to attain some sort of authority or power. And I don't know. I don't know if the former can even be possible anymore in the world. And maybe that's just a pessimistic way of looking at it. This is an interesting illustration in this story where it's like, if you're knowingly going, yeah, the last few dudes have all been killed, why would you want to go do that job? And maybe I need to not be as pessimistic, but at a certain point I'm like, man, maybe that's why I just don't trust politicians. Cause on a certain level, we've had politicians in this country that seem fairly milquetoast and don't have a lot of controversy surrounding them. And in political seasons, those people are basically demonized by the other side. And we're told that they're actually terrible humans and their families are attacked. And we, you know, we watch those politicians try to get character assassinated, and you're going like, this is the most boring, normal person in the entire world. Like, why are we trying to make this person out to be, like, a terrible person? And then you go, like, why would any just normal, good person ever want to go through this and ever want to actually put their family through this? So I don't know. It's kind of a sad, scary thing to think about. But if I'm drawing any modern parallels, it is that which is just like, I don't. It's hard to know. It's hard to know how to actually change the world for the better on a big picture. Sometimes it feels like other than just try to be a really good influence in your home and in your communities, and I guess where you can, but it's like, dude, would you want to go be the chief judge after this? If all of your predecessors are knocked off, do you want to go do that job? [00:06:47] Speaker A: Yeah. No, not so much, right? No. [00:06:49] Speaker B: Unless what? Unless you're like, well, it's worth the risk because it's such an appealing position of power. It's a. I don't know. Or, hey, man, maybe I'll be the lucky one. And I really do think I can make a change. Like, I'm just saying, it's like, what are the. What are the primary. What are the primary motivations at that point? [00:07:08] Speaker A: Yeah. The risk and reward, right? You either feel compelled because you have a sense of duty, a sense of honor. Like, you feel like this is what you have to do, and that can make you do some pretty gnarly things. Or the reward, like you say. Right? Risk versus reward. And there's an incredible amount of risk associated with this. That reward has to be pretty significant. Yeah. [00:07:31] Speaker B: For me. For me, I'm just saying I don't know the answer. [00:07:33] Speaker A: And you bring up a really good point. I remember growing up as kids, Nate, when we thought about the president of the United States, it was always, I don't know, in terms of respect. I think. I think we had a respect for the position regardless of what political party it was. Like, this was the president of the United States, and that position had a lot of power, and it commanded a lot of respect. But do we fall victim today to maybe being a little bit of Gaddianton's ourselves when we try to character assassinate whoever it is leading the country? And it's hard because we look at the characters of sometimes the people that are leading the country, and it doesn't command respect like it used to. And where's the line? Right? Are we becoming Gaddianton's in trying to put down the person in attacking? Or does that person really just deserve it? [00:08:30] Speaker B: It's an interesting, if nothing else, it's always a good question to keep yourself in check. Probably I have to do that. I obviously have very, I feel like well researched, well lived reasons for why I do and don't like certain people in the political spectrum. But it's always a really healthy thing to continue to check your own, like, biases and at a certain point go like, hey, am I, am I trying to attack or destroy something for the wrong reasons? And so I don't have an answer to your question other than everything. I mean, everything that we talk about always in the scriptures is there's always that fine line between righteous and wickedness in some of these things. And we've talked about it on a spiritual nature and how Satan always tries to just get us as close to that line as possible to where we just kind of step over to the other side. You've got to, you know, it's, it's a good thing to always keep in check, I guess, is why I'm bringing this up. And by the way, too, even though what I'm talking about, it's like, you never know. What if that line between, hey, I really do want to try to make a difference in a positive way is also baked into also a strong desire for power. And, and, you know, I mean, it's like, I don't, I'm not even suggesting that it's one or the other. I'm just saying there has to be a lot of strong, there has to be a strong motivation to do something knowingly dangerous because, because on the flip side of this, after 911, you had a bunch of amazing, heroic people say, hey, I'm stepping up knowing that I'm probably going to go into harm's way and did that with also knowing the risk to their life and health that it would take. Right? So I guess I'm just saying there is, there is, human beings are so complex that when I, when you read stories like this in the scriptures, they just feel so much more real to me when you realize there's still so much of that humanity all around us. [00:10:33] Speaker A: And I think I, at the heart of it is pride, right? Even, even if you're going in for the right reasons to serve people, does it not invoke a sense of pride that you could be a one in a position to make that difference? How does that make you feel to be, you know, to think that you could make a positive difference, that you have that kind of influence, that kind of capability, that kind of power, does that not involve a sense of pride? And maybe a lot of people go in feeling like they're going to be doing the right thing and serving the people and doing it with that sense of pride. But that same sense of pride does not, does that not also so easily turn into, I am this great person I do deserve because I am making these sacrifices. I am the only one, and you know what? Because I am the only one that can do this, I need to go to extremes to protect and make sure that I am the one that takes this. I mean, it's almost that you can see that humble beginning or that still has that seed of pride that can turn so quick. [00:11:36] Speaker B: And you just kind of highlighted, I think, the point that should be made here, in my opinion, which is, and if we can so easily see all of this in somebody else, are we seeing this in ourselves? Because, by the way, you don't have to be running for Congress to fall into this trap. I mean, this is, and we're told and talked about this and warned against this even within the church, in church callings and in ways, I mean, you have an entire section of the doctrine and covenants that warns priesthood holders, be very careful, be very careful with where you're at with God and the priesthood, because it is the nature of mankind to, once they get a little bit of power, once they get a taste of that, to start exercising unrighteous dominion like this. All, this all comes full circle. Not about looking at the world around us and pointing fingers. This should hopefully, and for me, as we're kind of having this discussion, this definitely comes way more back around to what is the reason that is motivating us to do even what it is that we're doing in our service. What is it? Do we need? Do we need people giving us shoutouts over the pulpit because of service projects we're doing for him, or do we need, you know, I don't know. There's a fine line between, you know, I, when especially, like, when I'm teaching, I always try to do the best job I can to prepare a lesson that hopefully means something. And you would hope, though, that it's like, that never becomes something where you're like, hey, I want to teach a good lesson so that people will think that I teach a good lesson. You know what I mean? It's like there's, there's even those types of fine lines where you just have to be. I just think that there is, it's so easy to slip into the, what am I gonna get out of this? And that's, I feel like just the easiest first steps to start taking towards pride, which eventually turns into all of the other destructive, disastrous things. [00:13:46] Speaker A: Well, even, I mean, as you're saying that I'm thinking on a deeply personal level, when having a conversation or engaging with somebody, do I get so caught up in thinking about what I am going to say and how important it is that I am not even giving the other person the space or room or opportunity to think that I'm not actually taking in what they're saying or listening to them? Because in my mind, what I have is so much more important that I've got to, like, formulate how. And I'm just speaking over or saying this because that's, and I'm guilty of. [00:14:19] Speaker B: That so much, but it's a lot of it is because, and I'm learning this about myself is that I'm just anxious all the time. Like, my brain is so preoccupied with kind of all of, it's just lists and lists. I feel like in my head of things that I'm, like, worried about trying to get done that sometimes when I'm, you know, when I'm locked into a conversation with somebody, I feel like it's a lot easier. But there are times where it's just, like, my brain is just going through the list and people are, like, talking to me and I realize, like, oh, my goodness, I, especially with my children or something, I'm just like, oh, no. Like, hopefully they can't just totally tell that my brain is in a different place. And I have to almost consciously, like, so anyways, I fall victim to that all the time, too. [00:15:03] Speaker A: And the one I fall victim to really bad as I'm thinking about this and as I'm trying to internalize this in my home and as a family, because you bring up the family and that hits with a chord for me. We've always. Getting a degree, starting off life in ancient near eastern studies doesn't necessarily set you up for financial success as a father. And so we've always somewhat struggled trying to make sure to provide for a family. And in my particular house, we felt it really important for my wife to stay at home and be with the kids. In today's day and age, having a one income family, it's hard to keep up. [00:15:48] Speaker B: Correct. [00:15:49] Speaker A: It's hard to afford life and then making the decision to have six kids on a single income with ancient near eastern studies as your plan to take you into battle. Right. My desire to provide for my family, to provide for their needs, has. Has led me to where I'm so focused on that, that maybe I am trying so hard to make ends meet that I am missing connecting with my kids. And what haunts me is that message. No amount of success will ever compensate for failure in the home. And it scares me. Do I prioritize that so much and struggle and wrestle with that so much that I'm not spending the time to do the simple things, playing games with the kids or connecting with them or having conversations. Do they feel like they can even come and approach me? I. I hear you, Nate, talking about your kids. [00:16:48] Speaker B: I know. I feel personally attacked by this. Jason. I'm just kidding. It's myself. It's myself. Because what you're saying is every single time is every word. I'm just like, yep. Oh, yeah. No, like, oh, yeah, oh, yeah. I. Yep, that's exactly right. [00:17:03] Speaker A: No, I'm flipping the tables. I hear you talk about the kids coming to you and expressing their fears and their thoughts, and I look at this and like, man, Nate's nailing it. What am I doing? [00:17:14] Speaker B: I'm nailing it, bro. My whole point is. My whole point is that, dude. But this is the fine balance, though. Cause you and I are in the exact same situation there. I have four children, right. And my wife, again, stays at home and tends to. I decided to be self employed in the music industry, so good luck. But, um. But that's the. But the. But we can't stop doing that either. You know what I mean? It's like we can't stop providing. And this is where it's. That's. It's tricky. So, anyways, it's tricky, man. [00:17:49] Speaker A: It's so easy for us to follow. We look at these gaddiantons, we look at what's happening here, and so many people trying to. I don't know. I think the motivations start off in a good place, and it's just so easy to go off on there. And one last thought along this. We've been applying this personally and family and looking at it, even politically, I feel like I can't move past this without taking at least one swipe or applying this better said religiously to our church as a whole, because I feel like we have an awesome responsibility, a terrible responsibility, an incredible responsibility as the Church of Jesus Christ, where Jesus Christ has commissioned us and given us priesthood and authority to make covenants with the children of men and bring them into his presence again to make that known to the whole world. And so go back to where we started with this conversation and that responsibility that we feel like we uniquely have in this world. We are the only ones with that responsibility. We are the ones that have to save the world. And I think it starts off from a very altruistic position. But how easy does that altruistic position start to twist or change to? Because we're the right ones. We are the only ones that we start to attack or stab or put down or. Your church is not like our church is the point of pride. Again, is there not a sense of pride that comes with, this is the Church of Jesus Christ, and it's a humble responsibility to be a servant to the world. But does that not also instill a sense of pride that we are the only ones and we have this, and how much can we start to churn and change? [00:19:47] Speaker B: It's that fine line, man. It's that fine line, and it leads. [00:19:52] Speaker A: To fights and arguments and. And not a spirit of peace, not a spirit of, you know, character assassinations and. [00:20:02] Speaker B: Well, everybody's getting killed in the Book of Mormon. So let's keep going. [00:20:06] Speaker A: Let's keep going. Let's. Let's take in last week. I think there's some important context when we see Nephi stepping down and doing his missionary work. He goes to the north. He doesn't have a ton of success, and he runs into the Lamanites. And this is kind of the second real time that we hear the details of a missionary effort to try to go in and reclaim the Lamanites. And I don't know why we don't see this one as. I don't know. It's definitely bigger and more impactful, I think, than when Ammon goes and does it. But when I think of converting the Lamanites, I still go back to Ammon, and I don't know why, because this I do. [00:20:44] Speaker B: How many arms did Nephi chop off? [00:20:49] Speaker A: Touche. That's a good point. [00:20:50] Speaker B: All right. [00:20:52] Speaker A: But what he does eclipses it absolutely, because not only does he convert, it's not a small group of Lamanites. He converts a large amount of Lamanites. And not only that, maybe, perhaps for the first time, what we're seeing is actual success in converting a lot of the centers as well. I don't think they get enough credit for how good they were as missionaries to be able to be converting to centers. Converting the Lamanites to the degree that the Lamanites gave back the land of Zarahemlet, gave back the land of Nephi, all of the possession of the Nephites, they turned back over to the Nephites. That's never happened before. In fact, when Ammon goes years back, it stokes a massive war that leads to all of these war chapters in Alma. In this case, when they goes, it leads to a massive amount of peace. That's kind of an interesting thought. [00:21:50] Speaker B: Okay. [00:21:52] Speaker A: If you've got two comings down into the people of the Lamanites, when the first one leads into destruction, and then the second one leads into peace, just. Just interesting. [00:22:04] Speaker B: Okay. [00:22:05] Speaker A: Just interesting. [00:22:06] Speaker B: Okay. Just interesting. [00:22:07] Speaker A: Just interesting. Just. Just something to think about. [00:22:12] Speaker B: All right, I'll think about it. [00:22:14] Speaker A: I'm gonna keep rolling, though. [00:22:15] Speaker B: All right. [00:22:16] Speaker A: Sorry, sorry. Just. Just dots connecting in my head that I hadn't connected before. That just kind of seemed interesting to me. Anyhow, going back to the lamanite, seeding the lands, what happens is a free market, right, starts to take over where the Lamanites are free to go anywhere within the land of the Nephites, because they showed an incredible amount of goodwill. Here's your land back. Oh, well, you had it fair and square. So a lot opens up, and not only does a lot open up, but because they're able to go wherever they want and trade however they want, and there's a lot of commerce happening between them. Inevitably, what follows is an enormous amount of wealth. This is the most prosperous the Lamanites have been. This is potentially one of the most prosperous times for the Nephites. And I find it kind of interesting because early on in the Book of Mormon, you've got these massive hundred year patterns where not a lot is happening, and it takes a hundred years for something to develop or to roll out. And now, all of a sudden, you're seeing things happen in a short amount of time. And I looked at this critically, like, really, four years of prosperity was enough to cause them to, like, trip and fall. Is four years enough for a policy to really take root and make that big of a difference to where you see that much of a change. But I look at our society today, and sometimes four years actually has an enormous impact. And looking at the Book of Mormon and seeing these small gaps of time and the difference that it can make, it doesn't seem nearly as unrealistic to me as it once did. And so you see this shift, and you would think the Lamanites have converted, the dissenters have converted, and the Nephites at one time believed, like, wouldn't this be the golden age, the happy time? How did this nothing last forever, right? [00:24:14] Speaker B: How did it not last forever? [00:24:17] Speaker A: And it. And it comes down to the Gaddianton robbers, the secret combinations. And that's what it says, right? It starts small, the secret combinations. And. And the more wicked part. Where was the more wicked part of the Gadianton robbers? It was the Lamanites. But the Lamanites were embarrassed by it. They were ashamed of it. And they went to extremes to try to stamp it out among them. The Nephites embraced it. They looked at it, and they tried to be a part of it. They tried to grow it. They tried to. To where it starts to penetrate into all levels of government. You're not just assassinating the kings. You are the kings. You're making all sorts of deals and trades. And it's interesting because it starts to go into the signs that they show each other and the reason why. These combinations were part of the early records, but they were kept hidden and not revealed. And now, all of a sudden, they're being revealed again and shown. And we talked about this a little bit last week, Nate, the similarities between these secret combinations and the temple. And it almost seems like one grows out of the other. They understood something, and yet they used it for evil. They're taking divine knowledge and trying to see not how they can serve their brothers or how they can become more like God, but how they can become self serving and how they become their own gods. And when they look at that and say, how can I get gain? Or how can I do this in this system? So this is actually going to play into Nephi. I think we all know the story. It's not worth doing much more than just a recap here. He goes on to the tower and prays the people see him, and he gathers a crowd, and then he prophesies about their chief judge being murdered, and they think that he's conspiring and all of this crazy story, right? And when he's finally vindicated through the spirit of prophecy, and prophecy is typically like, oh, we're going to see this down the road, or, oh, we're going to see this. But to actually play out in the details of the blood on his garments and the guy murdered on the judgment seat, like instantaneous prophecy, I don't think we see it that often at this level. How does he not convert everybody at that point? In fact, when we get to the scripture, after all of this happens and he's finally vindicated, this is chapter ten. Verse one. And it came to pass that there alone there arose a division among the people insomuch that they divided hither and thither and went their ways, leaving Nephi alone. And as he was standing in the midst of them, and it came to pass that Nephi went his way towards his own house, pondering upon these things which the Lord had shown unto him. And it came to pass that he was pondering, being much cast down because of the wickedness of the people, their secret words and the darkness and the murderings and their plunderings and all manner of iniquities. And it came to pass that as he was pondering, behold, a voice came to him. Blessed art thou. And it's going to get into this power. It's going to get into the sealing power that's revealed. But going back into verse one in so much that they divided hither and thither, leaving Nephi alone. It's a powerful imagery, like, they were all there. He vindicated himself through the spirit. No one could deny that he's a prophet of God, and they all kind of go their ways, and yet they don't change. So what if he's a prophet and he goes out, and after the Lord speaks to him and he receives this, he goes out with even more vigor to try to teach the word, and the people are rejecting him. And this is the guy that could convert lamanites. This is the guy that could convert dissenters. This is the guy that could have all the success as a missionary, and yet people didn't listen to him. And it doesn't. Sometimes if you go into a mission where you don't have a lot of baptism or you feel like nobody's listening to you, you might judge yourself as a poor, a poor missionary or not having the spirit or not having the power. But even the most powerful of missionaries can run into a time when nobody listens to them. It's not so much just the missionary as much as the audience as well. And how does an audience reject him when they see this? And then you're going to have the war. And he prophesied, he prays to God to replace the war with famine, and then the famine comes to the earth, and everything this guy is prophesying is saying is coming true. Why do they have such a hard time listening to him? And I think that's where I want to land on this episode. Nate, why do we have such a hard time listening to the prophets when it becomes so clear that they're a prophet, when they can prove to us when we can feel the power of what they're saying, when, when we know yet why do we have such a hard time listening? Or at least in this case, why did they have such a hard time listening? Because I think a lot of us do follow the prophets. Why are they so blinded to what he's saying? [00:29:34] Speaker B: I mean, I think it's worth asking the question in the bigger picture, with which is Jesus Christ walked and talked with people, blessed them, healed them, and raised people from the dead, and was resurrected on the third day. So I think it's, I think it's, that's, to me, it's like, that's the ultimate example of that question. But even in, even in the New Testament, it talks about how a prophet is never accepted in their hometown. Right. There's you, you know, too much of the human being of that person that it makes it really hard to see past that. I think you said something earlier that I kind of want to gently push back on. We have the prophets prophesying things happening in real time still to this day, all of the time, in my opinion, at least, I see that play out. And you saw right before the pandemic, there was a huge shift in the way we were preparing to do church meetings, the way that we were preparing to do teaching at home. There was a renewed push on. Be prepared with your water and food. Be prepared with supplies. Things are going to get gnarlier before they get better. All of these things. I mean, how much more real time, I guess, are we expecting? I understand that the story of Nephi, he's up on, and he said, this is happening literally right now. And I. Okay, fine. Maybe it's a little bit of apples to oranges, but I don't feel. I don't feel that in the big picture of life that it's really that much different. When you have prophets now going, if you're not shoring up your testimony right now in Jesus Christ, you will fall. You will not be able to withstand what's ahead if you are not fortifying your testimonies right now. It's like, how much more, how much more clear and articulate can the profits at this point possibly be, other than saying, you will see a lot of people falling away from this, you will be one of them if you're not prepared. You see what I'm saying? I guess I'm saying, what else can we possibly want more than then those types of warnings? When, if you look at the, you know, couple hundred years that this church has been on earth. And when these warnings are given, the prophecies are paid off. It's like, what else do you need to hear at this point? So to answer your question, I don't know. I don't know. Is it, again, it just says, does it go back to human nature? Are we, because we're living in such a time of relative peace, insecurity relative to world history, that were comfortable? Was everybody comfortable at the time? I guess maybe that's the answer to the question. [00:32:27] Speaker A: Yeah, you bring up an excellent point with the prophecies. And immediately my mind went to the first proclamation that the twelve apostles and the first presidency issued to the world, that we testify that the kingdom of God has been restored here on the earth and that this is what you needed to all the kings and the nations and the whatever. The gospel has returned. And yet how well received is that in the world and more recently. [00:32:58] Speaker B: But it doesn't mean that that prophecy wasn't played out. You look at the spread of the church across the entire world, you look at how even with all odds stacked against it, from early financial. That's exactly right. From physical harm, from financial poverty, from all of these things, and it's still baited. So it's like, okay, cool. That prophecy I would look at and say was still fulfilled and is in the process of being fulfilled. But you can judge the fruits of that prophecy. [00:33:30] Speaker A: And more recently, and this is the first presidency, again, the family proclamation to the world. And I'm just going to read one line out of this. We warn. So first off, if we're warning to me, that's prophecy, right? We're warning about something that's going to happen. That's prophecy. We warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets. [00:34:08] Speaker B: Whoa. [00:34:11] Speaker A: Is that not as clear as it gets? [00:34:15] Speaker B: Crystal. [00:34:16] Speaker A: And so we're looking at this apocalypse around us and all of these calamities that are happening to individuals, to families. We see the failing of the family all over the place, nations. And we have all of these government leaders looking at, how do we fix this? How do we fix this? And I know the solution. I have the solution. And yet, very rarely do you hear. [00:34:45] Speaker B: Any of them say that it's to fix the family. [00:34:47] Speaker A: Right? [00:34:48] Speaker B: Which, by the way, if you do hear them saying fix the family, I would suggest that those are probably people at least worth giving a shot, because you and I could probably agree fundamentally, organizations, organizations are either built from the foundation up correctly, or they're, or they are going to be flimsy and they're going to be knocked down. And foundationally, if the people of a country don't have a good anchor or a foundation in their own homes, it's hard to imagine that, that the, a body that is supposedly of the people, for the people will be able to succeed if those people are all broken and have no foundation themselves. [00:35:35] Speaker A: And I think this goes back even what we were talking about earlier. And it was a small, subtle thing when we were talking about how sometimes when we're having a conversation, we're so busy thinking about what we want to say that we don't always connect or listen to what others. I think that's the root of the problem even now, right? We're so busy caught up trying to figure out how we can solve the problem ourselves. And what are we doing when God has already given us the answer and his prophets are talking to us and they're hearing the voice? I look at these people and I think I see parallels. I think the reason why they missed the mark and they didn't listen to the prophet is because they were so busy thinking about how they themselves were going to fix the problem, or they were so busy thinking about how they themselves were going to prosper. Go back to what we were talking about. When I am so busy in this world trying to figure out how to survive, do I lose focus and put so much care and attention on that, that my family is what lays at the altar, the sacrificial altar. What are we willing to sacrifice to please ourselves? And it's so subtle and it's so easy. I think that's Satan's trick. I mean, it's in the book of Mormon. It's in the family, the proclamation of the world. It's playing out today. And what are we lying on the altar to make ourselves happy, to get that dream, to realize what it is that we are so focused on surviving, which is a good thing. Go back to the garden of Eden, knowledge to good and evil. Is that to be like God? Is that not a good thing? Here I am going to help you to be like God. That's what I want. And so we're so focused on doing the right thing and what we think is the right thing. It's a perversion of the right thing. We think we have the answers that we're not willing to actually connect and be humble. And we break the first commandment because we've created another God ourselves and put that above goddess. What he's really saying you said it. [00:37:39] Speaker B: Best when you said, we're in these desperate searches to find all of the answers when we've been told what they were in the first place. And like any prophecy, it should be able to be put to the test and judge the fruits thereof. I would say you can really see, you know, historically, especially kind of around the sixties, and it different times in our country's history, where you start seeing fundamental breakdowns in the family structure. And we now have 50 years, 60 years of evidence to go. What happens when you have a breakdown of the fabric of what a country should be built on? And it always starts in the home. And again, you just look at the evidence in a certain point. And so therefore, it's funny when you say we're trying to find all these solutions. I'm just saying you nailed it when you just said we don't need to look nearly as externally as we are instead of looking internally. And I'm so glad you reread that line again from the proclamation of the family. But I mean, talk about a prophetic document. I mean, you go back and reread through that, too, again. When it was released, I feel like probably when it was released, at least for me, I was kind of like, oh, yeah, I guess I can kind of see some of this stuff around us right now. You look at that document, what, 20 years later, and you go, oh, my goodness. It truly is so much more important, I guess, and articulate now than it was 20 years ago. Like, it actually, it actually says something so much more pointed and intense now than it does when it was originally released. And we all kind of went, yeah. Like, oh, yeah, this is good stuff to think about. Yeah, we should really, you know, we should strengthen the home, I think was kind of the takeaway right when it was first released. You read that now in context of 2024, that's a different document. You go, my goodness, this absolutely was prophetic. [00:40:04] Speaker A: And take what we're talking about today and let's ground it in what we talked about last week. [00:40:10] Speaker B: Okay. [00:40:11] Speaker A: And last week we talked so much about the need to be anchored in Christ. Your favorite scripture, Nate Helaman 512. [00:40:20] Speaker B: Yeah, no, no, I don't need to do it again. But it's my favorite one. I recited it to my kids yesterday. We were talking about it again. I'm like, it's my favorite one in the book. Found out it's my mother in law's favorite one in the book, too. Give us a build upon the rock, baby. Because the devil will send forth all of the gnarliness. [00:40:37] Speaker A: And I want to take that and go back again to the story we mentioned last week in the old Testament, when Moses had created Aaron's line to be the high priest. And remember, they're all Levites, and the Levites have the right to the priesthood. Here. They were the tribe that was sacrificed, if you will, to spare the firstborn of all of the tribes. They were the one tribe that was given that responsibility. But Aaron's line in particular was given the high priest responsibility. And as a high priest, he could go into the holy of holies, into the presence of God. And you have the other one that said, we're just as good as Aaron. Why don't we have that responsibility? And Moses says, see, this is the difference. This is the crux. This is what this lies on. If Moses listens to his argument and says, no, you've got a good point, or if he lets him make that decision, then who's guiding the church at that point? Right? Is this a church of good ideas? Is this the church of man? Or is this listening to what God said? Moses did not choose his brother because he thought, you know what? My brother is probably better than everybody else. I'm going to do it. The reason why Moses chose Aaron is because God said, take Aaron and put upon, clothe him in the robes of the priesthood, anoint him and sanctify him. It's because it's God versus us instead of us versus God. We put God first. And so Moses says, all right, God's the one that made the decision. And if you want to be that, then God's going to be, have to have to be the one that makes this decision. Again, I'm going to take it out of my hands so that I'm not the one making this choice. Lest you think that it's a church led by me, let's do something that shows you that this was God's decision, not mine. Take a rod for yourself. And Aaron's going to take a rod, and we're going to lay them out, and we'll see which one actually is able to produce buds and blossom and flower and grow. Why would it? Because it's connected to Christ. And their rod withered and died, and then their whole family kind of got destroyed. Not great, but take that to what we're talking about today. We do need to struggle. That was pronounced on us in the beginning with Adam, when he says, by the sweat of thy brow, well, he. [00:43:12] Speaker B: Said he was going to curse the ground for their good, for their sakes. [00:43:17] Speaker A: It's not because we've done something wrong that we're struggling. And in that struggle, do we make time to listen to God and be connected and do what he wants us to do? Do we. Do we lay at the altar our will and sacrifice that? Or are we sacrificing our family or our opportunity to connect with God or our connection with God? Because if we sacrifice God, then we're going to wither and die, just like that line did. And if we're connected to God, when the prophet speaks, we listen, we hear, and we sacrifice the right things. If we don't have, we sacrifice everything. And it really comes down to what Christ said. If you lose your life, you will find it. But if you try to keep your life, you're going to lose it all. So I think. I think last week's lesson serves as a great place to anchor when we're talking about listening to the prophet today and why we missed the mark. Because sometimes we are struggling. We are trying to survive, and. And what do we end up sacrificing? Because like you've said before, Nate, that the equation has to balance. You're always sacrificing something. There's always a price that needs to be paid. [00:44:41] Speaker B: Amen, brother. Okay. Anything else you want to hit this week? [00:44:44] Speaker A: That's all I got. [00:44:45] Speaker B: Okay. Appreciate you. Glad that you've been able to come down and do this in the studio. Appreciate you listening. Please send us questions, comments, feedback. Last question. What's the difference between Nephi going up and praying on top of a tower and ramyamtum? [00:45:02] Speaker A: Oh, man. Such a great question. Such a great question. [00:45:08] Speaker B: You thought this was over? It's been gnawing at me. [00:45:12] Speaker A: No, Nate, like, this is something that we have been hitting for years now. The fine line between the two, right? [00:45:24] Speaker B: Yes. [00:45:26] Speaker A: The waters of destruction, yet the waters of life, right? The tree of life, yet the tree of death and the imitation and the similarities. And here you have. It's such a great connection. [00:45:46] Speaker B: It's funny that they're this close to each other in the scriptures, too, because I don't think. I don't think it highlights. I don't think it highlights the point as well if it's too far away from each other. So there's clearly some value in going closer to God and praying right in our temples. Where is the celestial room? Where's the holy of holies? Where's the sealing room? [00:46:06] Speaker A: Well, the temple itself is called the mountain of the Lord. You're supposed to go up into the mountain. Nephi, he went up into the mountain often and prayed. And so, again, talking about elevating yourself to pray versus elevating yourself to pray, it's interesting. Well, it's the heart of what we were starting this with. You know, going and doing what the Lord asked you, because you are the one that can do it. Is that not elevating yourself? Sure. To serve. But how easy. [00:46:34] Speaker B: That's what I mean, bro. [00:46:35] Speaker A: How easy does that change? [00:46:38] Speaker B: My only thought on it again is I think that when we see. I think that there's. There's a. There's two ways, usually to look at these things. And you see it a lot in people that, unfortunately are attacking the church from within or as recently removing themselves from the church, is that you see a lot of people say, look at the secret combinations. Well, then why does the church do things in secret? And you go, okay, hey, you look at these stories, Ramy emptom. Aren't you not supposed to be on top of towers praying? You go, okay, you know what I mean? It's like you see these things and you go, hold on. If you actually take the perspective switch on that and go, well, what if you are supposed to be doing those things and these other things are the perverted versions of these things? You're taking a look at it and saying, hey, look, the temple stuff is like secret combinations. And I go, no, no, no, no. Secret combinations are perverting the things of a temple. That's a very different thing. Thing. And if you say, hey, is there something wrong with going up on a tower and praying to God? I say, no, no, no, no, that's a good thing to do if your intentions and if you're doing it the way that the Lord would have you do it, this other thing is the perverted version of that. It's the imitation of that. Don't misunderstand the two. And I understand that that's an easy line of attack for somebody that's trying to find and poke holes into things that the church does or believes or we teach or read about in the scriptures. But. But this is. It's cheap, and it's. And it's an actual. It's actually a very simple discussion when you go, the thing that you're trying to say is the original is the. Is the imitation. It's the perversion. And don't. Don't confuse the two. Sacred things have been there since day one. And those are things that, yes, all are invited to come and be a part of and are not used to separate, but are actually used to seal and to bring people together and reunite them with God. That's the original. [00:48:46] Speaker A: But we've even talked about cleaving, sealing and bringing together. Is the same power that separating and dividing. [00:48:53] Speaker B: And that's right. But my point is that, again, when you do inevitably see these discussions or these things come up, it's just important to. To acknowledge and recognize. This isn't actually that confusing of a discussion. Is like you, the person arguing it is unfortunately elevating the imitation as if it was the real thing. And it's just like, no, that's the perverted version of it. And I'm sorry. It's not that much of a. This isn't that hard of an argument. [00:49:24] Speaker A: And it's so weird how something so similar can be so opposite. It's as clear as black and white, and yet it's almost the same thing. And some people don't see it right. They caught focusing on the wrong thing. I was thinking about a different similarity between the tower. Noah, for example, built a watchtower so that he could see the Lamanites. And he would be able to see if they were staging so that he could prepare for war to defend his people. But his towers were unmanned and unstaffed. And had it not been for Gideon trying to take his life away, they would have been completely caught by surprise and destroyed and ruined as it was. They were mostly destroyed. And in the scriptures, the Lord talks about having a vineyard and building a watchtower to protect it. And having somebody on the watchtower that could signal and prepare the people to be prepared. And yet they didn't man the tower. And so the enemy came and threw down the tower and threw down the walls and destroyed the vineyard. And so when we look at this story and we see the Nephites just not getting the picture. And as sad as it is, it can look as a very depressing story. But at the same time, do we not see Nephi standing in the tower? This is a guy that the tower is built overlooking his garden, overlooking his vineyard. And he is in the tower seeing a what's going to happen before it happens? And taking steps to try to prepare the people. This is actually an excellent story. And what's his reward because of it? Right. He receives the trust of God. And the sealing power that what he seals on earth will be sealed in heaven. Because he wouldn't ask anything that God wasn't prepared to do. And it's fascinating when he goes and says, prepare or to replace the war with famine. Isn't famine a natural consequence of war? Anyways? If all of your men are out there constantly fighting and no one's there to tend to the crops and the flocks, what's going to happen? Who's taking care of providing food for the people? Moroni saw this. When Moroni is engaged in war, what does he do? He stops for a time, sends everybody home so that they can prepare food, and so that they don't end up sinking into a famine after the war is over. And they were blessed in time by the Lord, because they sent the people of anti Nephi Lehi, who weren't going to engage. And what was their job in Zarahemla? To raise flocks and food, to send out supplies. And we keep reading about those supply chains that they're sending out to the fronts. These people are making sure that a famine didn't follow. And so when Nephi says, replace it with a famine, is he really coming up with anything novel or new? Or is he just in tune with the natural consequences of the disobedience of the people? So that when he says, this is the will of the Lord, he's not saying God's going to smite them with this, that or the other. He understands what's going to happen when people don't follow the Lord. And he's just pronouncing the natural consequences of their own disobedience, because he is in tune with what the Lord's saying. And I think our prophets have done that when they said, if you don't see the disintegration of the family is going to lead to this, and we could go into a whole discussion breaking down the impact that the family's disintegration has had on violence, on crime, on prison rates, totally, on gangs, on secret. [00:53:08] Speaker B: Combinations as a whole, but also just the mental health of human beings and drug use and all kinds of things, too. I mean, it's the most destructive thing that's ever happened to this country. [00:53:21] Speaker A: And you and I both coming from a single income home, having to compete with all of these other households that are in a double income home. How easy is it when we go back to economy and your willingness to pay versus that? You start looking at the supply and the demand chain and what people are willing to pay? Well, everybody else is willing to pay more because they have more to pay with. Then how do the single family homes, the single working income homes, keep up? And what's a natural consequence of all of a sudden having all of this money, all this wealth and putting all of this into you start to drown out and choke the others that can't keep up. [00:54:03] Speaker B: Yep. We've been blessed. Killer. Well, I'm glad we threw that in there at the end. It's something that was kind of gnawing at me. I'm like, I know we at least need to acknowledge this, so I'm glad you were. I'm glad you were able to add some insight into that. [00:54:20] Speaker A: I'm glad you brought it up. [00:54:21] Speaker B: Yeah, no sweat. Appreciate everybody listening. A couple dudes just talking about the scriptures. Doing our best to add a little bit of unique insight and insight and unique perspective. Hopefully, as you're listening, you are inspired and find a lot of your own connections. And hopefully, if nothing else, we can kind of give you something to think about to make your scripture study even more fulfilling. If not, we're doing our best, so we'll keep trying. Appreciate you sharing with your friends. You can get a hold of us at high at weekly.