Ephesians

[00:00:15] Speaker A: Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the add on Education network. The podcast where we take a look at the weekly come follow me discussions and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here in the studio with our friend and the show's producer, Nate Pfeiffer. [00:00:34] Speaker B: Let's hear it for elder Reinlein. [00:00:35] Speaker A: Let's. You're ready to dive right in. [00:00:40] Speaker B: Let's just take it. Let's just take a yes moment here. Preach. [00:00:50] Speaker A: I'm ready. Let's hear it. [00:00:51] Speaker B: I mean, anybody listening to this podcast that's listened to this it all over the past two months, no's knew that I was gonna be coming in hot with that one, but just, yes, that's all. You know, if you heard the talk and you know, then you know, but yes, that's all I'm saying. [00:01:12] Speaker A: I also want to bring up. I don't know if it's just because it was on my mind, but Saturday afternoon session, it's the first time I recall hearing the phrase spiritual dissonance in conference. And when I heard that, boy, my lights went on. I was like, wow, I love this talk. [00:01:33] Speaker B: It was nice. It was nice hearing. It was nice. It was nice receiving some validation on some things that we've been thinking about and talking about. But just yes. [00:01:46] Speaker A: Do you want me to ask, like, your favorite conference moment, aside from Renlyn's talk, or was it Renly's talk that. [00:01:54] Speaker B: Did it for you, or, you know, that was my favorite. You know that. But the thing is, there was a lot of other really great talks that were solid, but you knew that. You knew that. I mean, I saw the text on my phone just start popping up, not just from you, but from everybody else. Like, hey, man, isn't this what you've been obsessing over over the past little while? And I'm like, yes, yes, thank you. Thank you. I was doing the gift, the baby, the baby doing, like, the hand waving, like, at the pentecostal church. I was just like, preach, preach. Anyways, come on. If you've listened to this podcast at all over the past two months, you knew I was coming in hot with that. You did. You knew it was. [00:02:37] Speaker A: I knew it was coming. [00:02:38] Speaker B: We were having dinner with my parents, and I just came upstairs, and my dad was just like, you know, you liking this one? And I'm like, oh, you know I am. You know, I'm loving this. Anyways, what was your favorite, other than the moments of validation? [00:02:55] Speaker A: You know, honestly, for me, the one I liked, the most was actually probably sister Wright's Saturday morning. And she, unless I heard this wrong, I could be putting this on me. But she talks about the parable of the ten virgins. And then she says that she actually misquotes the scripture when she says, depart. You knew me not. And that made me take pause and like, wait, what? That's a very small difference, but it's actually a huge difference. You knew me not, I know you not. And so I had to go back in the scriptures and check afterwards. And I'm like, oh, yeah, she changed that a little bit. But that change in perception changed so much for me to think. The other scripture that says, how knoweth the man, the master he hasn't served. And she goes on and talks about the oil and the lamps and how you build it with all of these different moments and inspiration that you have when you feel the spirit. And I feel like most of us have had these talks and we've been there and we understand what filling the oil in the lamp is. But by her changing that one little phrase, all of a sudden it got my mind thinking, wait a second. It doesn't matter if you had all the oil in your lamp. If you never bothered to light it and follow that light to the wedding feast. It's not enough to have oil in the lamp. And then she read it herself as she quoted the scripture. You have to take the spirit as your guide if you don't do what the spirit prompts you to do. And so for me, it just, I don't know, it was hitting, I'd have to say hers. And then maybe even President Oaks. President Oaks really hit hard for me, too. Those are the ones that I really appreciated. [00:04:47] Speaker B: Solid. So good. [00:04:49] Speaker A: It was a good conference. [00:04:51] Speaker B: It was. It was great. Got to hang out with the family and enjoy, you know, seeing, seeing family in between sessions and doing the whole thing. And my kids are finally starting to get old enough to where they can kind of, they can kind of hang. And so that's fun, too. Awesome. Well, anything else you want to talk about that, or should we get into what's going on this week? [00:05:12] Speaker A: I think we're ready to get on. Well, maybe not quite this week. There's just a few things last week I wanted to kind of revisit quickly, briefly. But if any of you had any conference thoughts, too, we'd love to. We'd love to hear your thoughts and feel free to share those. But last week, something that really stood out to me, and I've been thinking about, we talked about that straight and narrow path and hitting the extremes on either end. And as I was thinking about this and hashing this over in my mind this last week, even one example, and it was kind of emphasized a bit in conference that I really appreciated, is in revelation and agency. On the one hand, we want to feel that spirit. We want to do what the Lord wants us to do, and it's important to seek his spirit and to act on promptings. But on the other hand, if we're expecting God to give us a script of everything we're supposed to act out, that was a very different plan in the beginning and praying for God to tell us every little thing that we should do. Be prepared to experience unanswered prayers. Be prepared to be kind of left hanging there on the one extreme. And as I'm thinking about, you know, as we're talking about this path, and maybe you have to go back last week to understand what I'm talking about a little bit better, but. But you go through these moments of maybe you're not getting answers to your prayers or you're getting these moments where you're just feeling that spirit strong and you're getting those answers really quick. And we talked about this. It was, I think, how we talked about it was the David Peter scale, right? [00:06:47] Speaker B: Trademark. [00:06:48] Speaker A: Trademark. And. And on that scale, like, sometimes we need to pick me up, and sometimes we need a little bit of a humbling. And I guess the last point I just want. Wanted to drive home on this is because that path is so straight and narrow. And remember, this is straight, s t r a I t. It's not the GH. It's constricting narrow, because that path is so narrow, I think it's reasonable to expect that you would hit both extremes in a short amount of time. Sometimes we can feel like we're on the top of the world, and within an hour after having that experience, can be feeling pretty low. Or sometimes we feel like God's not listening or was not answering our prayers. And the next moment, all of a sudden, we feel like we're getting all of this revelation. And sometimes because the narrowness of the path, it doesn't take much for us to bump against those extremes on either end. I guess that's what I just wanted to wrap up from last week. Great. All right, let's dive into Ephesians, unless there's anything else you wanted to hit before we. [00:07:47] Speaker B: Eldorenlan, dude. [00:07:49] Speaker A: Elder Renlundae, if you're wondering what Nate's talking about, maybe I'll just provide a little bit of. [00:07:56] Speaker B: Go ahead. Go ahead. [00:07:59] Speaker A: This was something, even a few weeks back, as we were looking at this and talking about the ordinances and what it means, and we felt like talking about even baptism, the idea that it's like taking a bath and you're washed and you're clean, perfectly clean, after coming out of that water, and then you have to go and take the sacrament to cleanse yourself every time. And maybe this takes us. Renlyn describes this. [00:08:26] Speaker B: We were saying, we don't agree with that, what you just said. [00:08:28] Speaker A: Right, right. We were looking at this and saying, there's more to this. Right. This is even baptism itself is a symbol of death and resurrection, a promise of the future, of what happens if we follow Christ and what we can be. And I like taking what Renland said and actually even combining it with what Oaks said, when Oaks is saying, you're not going to be judged on the weight of your deeds and what you did, but rather who you become, and talk about that in light with what Renlund's saying. Renlund said, as he's a little boy, and he was about to walk in front of that truck, his dad pulled him back. And part of that, I don't know how he even said this little troublemaker, part of him or this devious. He said it better than that, didn't he? But he said part of him, maybe mischievous is the word he used, was almost hoping that that truck would have hit him because he had recently been baptized, and then therefore, he would have been clean and perfect and saved. And I think that's why we were calling this out back when we were talking about this, is if we truly believe that the act of being baptized, that the act of taking the sacrament is what saves us, rather than the relationship with the savior, remembering the savior, becoming like the savior, that it's much more than just the physical acts of what we're doing, then we would want the last rite before we die to cleanse and purify us, or maybe hold off and baptizing me until I'm ready to die. And as I'm breathing, taking my last breath, dunk me in the water so that I'm pure and safe. It's not about that. And I think that was what we were trying to hit. And to hear Renlyn kind of talk about that and say that that idea of a mischievous mind was a mistaken idea, I think, is where we're going with the validation. [00:10:11] Speaker B: And it's just so nice to hear from the top down phrases that we've heard so many times, like renewing our baptismal covenants or renewing whatever covenants. It's just we're moving away from those words, we're moving away from that language. And it was awesome today to hear him talk about the sacrament in relationship to the temple more than even baptism. But even then when he talked about it, it wasn't a renewing. It was a chance to reflect on ways that we can, that we can follow the covenants that we've made and not be necessarily, well, not even necessarily, but not be renewing the covenants that we've made. I was just like, I'm glad that we're changing the way that we talk about this from the top down so that we can start being way more deliberate with how we understand this. [00:11:04] Speaker A: And I still look at this as room to, to renew in the sense that if we're remembering that covenant and we feel in ourselves a renewed dedication to be like him, in a sense, we're renewing those covenants that we make pushback against that. But, okay. And I look at your pushback in the same sense of you've explained this to me and I think this visual works really well in the sense that we're not limiting the power of the atonement of Christ like it's a library card or, excuse me, book that you check out that it's going to expire and we have to renew it because all of a sudden the power is waning or Christ's atonement doesn't have that power to reach us. It's not that the covenant needs to be renewed because the atonement is limited in its ability to save us. But this is a whole discussion. I think we can go down, we get in our bonus episode. [00:12:01] Speaker B: Needless to say, thank you. Thank you for conference today. Thank you, elder inland, for nothing, renewing any covenants in your talk today. Thank you for making. Thank you for being deliberate with the words that you use for me, and I appreciate it. [00:12:17] Speaker A: And it was really awesome to see him taking that from maybe the surface level that oftentimes in the church kind of gets glossed over, how many talks about the baptism and taking the pennies and making them clean. And if you ever sin again, don't worry, you can take the sacrament. It's going to renew everything. To be able to take that pause and actually redirect it to even the temple and deepening the ordinances and becoming more like Christ, that's where he's awesome. [00:12:43] Speaker B: It's great. [00:12:44] Speaker A: All right. [00:12:45] Speaker B: All right. Now let's for sure get into it. [00:12:46] Speaker A: Ephesians. [00:12:47] Speaker B: Ephesians. [00:12:48] Speaker A: Okay. Ephesians is a whole book here, and there's a lot I actually want to talk about. So we'll see where we go and if there's a lot left on the table, I apologize. Guys. We try to do this in an hour, and it never works. We try. [00:13:02] Speaker B: All right. [00:13:02] Speaker A: I'm. I don't even know if I can use the word try in this case. [00:13:05] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, we've stopped trying a while ago. We're conscious of it. [00:13:09] Speaker A: We try to keep this at a reasonable time. [00:13:11] Speaker B: We're conscious of the time that it's taking and apologize for how long it goes at times. [00:13:15] Speaker A: And I'm actually going to break this down in verse one. I'm sorry. I'm just going to slow this down right off the bat. Verse one. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the will of God, to the saints, which are at. Ephesus. Ephesus. And to the faithful in Christ Jesus. Now, going back to verse one, there is a phrase here I really want to key in on, and I think it's an important distinction between the church of Jesus Christ versus the church of. Fill in the blank. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ. By the will of God. That's it. By the will of God. How important is that phrase? And you think about it, how did Paul get called to be an apostle? Because I'll tell you, he was not on the short list that Peter had or that any of the other apostles had. Paul was out there persecuting, potentially murdering christians, at the very least consenting to their death and holding coats while. While they were being killed. I don't think when the apostles got together, they looked and said, you know what? Paul would make a really good choice. And they were probably a little bit skeptical with his conversion. Paul was a little bit hesitant to be approaching Peter, and Peter was a little bit hesitant with Paul. Why was he called to be an apostle? Not because it sounded like a good idea. Not because they had a council and got together and said, you know, Paul is the right choice for this, but because the Lord Jesus Christ appeared to Paul and called him to be an apostle. And that's why it is the church of Jesus Christ. And even how we prefaced this with last week and a bit in this episode tonight, with balancing that agency, I don't feel like the Lord comes in and tells his leaders of the church, I am going to give you a script that you have to follow. No, he respects their agency. He allows them to make choices. But he is calling his apostles by his revelation, his inspiration. And I think it's important that we see that, that we recognize that what makes the church, the church of Jesus Christ, as opposed to the church of anyone else is who is called. And by what power are they called? Who's calling them to that position? That's it. That's where I wanted to go with verse one. Fast forward. Now Paul's going to get in some interesting things right here. He's going to talk about the plan of salvation. And I want to pick this up in verse four. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame, and before him in love. Now this is going to get into a discussion about predestination. In fact, even read on verse five. Having predestined us unto the adoption of the children of Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will, fast forward to verse eleven, in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined, predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. So here comes the discussion. This is a debate that I think has raged in Christianity for a while. Are people predestined to be saved or to be damned? Does it matter what we do? Because we're already decided is where does agency fit in this discussion? And here, I don't think this is what Paul is saying at all. Let's back up a little bit and really understand verse four to understand what we mean by predestination. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame, before him in love. Okay, they were chosen to be holy and without blame. If they were predestined to be holy and without blame, then they failed. All of us, like sheep, have gone astray. Paul. Paul's the one writing here. You can't tell me that Paul lived a perfect life and didn't screw up. Paul's the first to admit that he is screwed up. Paul's living with a very heavy burden from the way he treated christians early on. He is certainly not claiming that he is holy without blemish. So when he says he has chosen us before to stand before him spotless, what was predestined? Not that they would be perfect, but there would be a means by where they could stand before him what was predestined. And we look at the word predestined in Greek. This word means to be decided beforehand. What was decided beforehand. The way in which we could stand before God blameless. So if we read these verses carefully, what this is saying is, before the foundation of the world, God said, who shall I send to save my children, to make it so that my children can come back and stand before me blameless? Through the power of the atonement, what was predestined, not predestined, what was decided beforehand? The atonement, who he shall send that Christ would come. This is not talking about who was chosen to be perfect and saved in the end and who was chosen to be damned. This is talking about what is the way by which people can be saved. That was determined beforehand. That's what Paul is talking about. I think that changes the discussion a little bit. And shifting that focus to understand helps us. Helps us understand. The atonement was never a plan b. When you read about the garden of Eden and you see Adam and Eve fall, you almost think like, God is scrambling and trying to call an audible. [00:19:36] Speaker B: Well, I mean, there's a lot of christian denominations that talk about it, framed that way. For whatever it's worth, I've told you about that prayer breakfast that we went to when I was in Oakland, and the sermon at the prayer breakfast started. You know, it's very. It's a lot of people from a lot of different denominations, a lot of, you know, like, you know, preachers and missionaries and things. And the discussion. The sermon started out where even us at the table, we were kind of like, amen, brother. Yeah, let's go verbalizing, like, yeah, baby, we're doing this because it started out as in the garden. We're all called to be gods. And me and the rest of the three missionaries that I was with were looking around, were like, wait, did we just hear that right? We're like, yeah, all right. It's like, you know, but it was funny because he's like, little g, though, not big g, like small guys, like, you know, around here. Like little G's, not big G's. And we're just, like, laughing. We're just like, this is great. Fine, whatever. We'll take. We'll take what we can. But then he's like, but then the plan got screwed up. We were like, wait, what? Uh oh. Uh oh. That went a little sideways from where we started. [00:20:55] Speaker A: We were tracking. We were. [00:20:57] Speaker B: I know we were about ready to stand up again. Like we were the meme, dude, the baby, the gift, the baby waving their arm in the air, just, like, eyes closed, like, preach but it's like everything was going good and then God's plan got screwed up. And because of that, we had to have, you know, he had to send a son because we couldn't, you know, whatever. And it was like, well, we started out at a good place, but we're like, we appreciate what we can and understand that, you know, we're all trying to figure this out, but we were shocked at the idea was just like, oh, wait, we're being taught that we needed Jesus because, well, and even then, even when Jesus was here, the rest of the sermon was like. And we couldn't even get that right. And instead of following him, we killed him. And you're just like, oh, man, we're framing this all as we keep foiling God's way. That's the thing, is, we're better than. [00:21:49] Speaker A: God because we can ruin what he's saying. [00:21:51] Speaker B: That was unfortunately, kind of the framework of the discussion. And we were just like, well, and so to your point, like, we don't just talk about this, but you're right. What you're perceiving is sadly a very, like, more common than not idea that it's like we needed Jesus because at, like, the last minute, we threw in a whammy and kind of messed things up. And it's just like, well, that's a tough framework to work within, but from what we believe. But, you know, whatever. [00:22:23] Speaker A: And I think if we read Paul here, at least how I'm reading Paul when he talks about this being chosen before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame, I can't look at that. And suppose that God expected that we would be perfect through life. God, who knows everything from the beginning to the end, couldn't see that we were going to screw up. What kind of God is that? You can't say he's all knowing and yet he had no idea we were going to be this way. It doesn't work. And so you can't suppose that he chose a couple people to be perfect, in which case, predestination only applies to one person, because there's only one person that I know of that lived a perfect life. Right. And God didn't create a plan so he could pick his one favorite child and throw the rest in the garbage. No. If I read this, and the way I understand it, and I admit I could be wrong, I don't have perfect knowledge here, but I'm reading what Paul's saying. He chose before the foundation of the world and determined beforehand the means by which men could stand blameless for him and go back to that garden of Eden and how Christ has not been the substitute or the alternative, but the main plan. And I think we get to what Paul's saying here. Now, there's something interesting about this, too. If we were involved before the laying of the foundation of the world, and if God was saying, how am I going to help these to stand before me at the end, then we had to have existed before the world was created. And if we're having this discussion, who am I going to send? And this right here is evidence to an existence before the world was created. Paul's talking about this, and that's something that Christianity has rejected and pushed against for a long time. Until you get the restoration of the gospel through the prophet Joseph Smith. And he starts talking about this idea that we are spirit children of our father in heaven. This, however, was not something new and invented by Joseph Smith. I mean, you read it right here in Paul, and it's very clear not only that, but an early father in the church. Origen also said, by looking at Romans, by looking at Jeremiah, he said, the scriptures make it abundantly clear that the spirit of man was created by the father before the world was even created. We get that. And Origen says, not only that, I'm not the first person to teach this, but my teacher. And we're assuming he's talking about Philo, a jewish teacher, also taught that God created man before the world was created. So this was a teaching that early Christianity had, in fact, a large mainstream. I say mainstream. I probably need to correct that a large group of Christians believed this. The people who followed Origen clearly believed this. But what happened is it was the second council of Constantinople. When they get together and they decree this as a heresy, because other branches of Christianity wanted to stamp out these branches of Christianity. What happens is when Christianity gets accepted by Constantine in Rome and now becomes a political power instead of just a religious power, and the political power has the teeth to enforce its rules, its doctrines, or whatever the case may be, by political means. In other words, if you don't agree with what we're saying, the penalty is death. That's heresy. We start to see the introduction of heresy in the church. And these councils are getting together, not by revelation of God. Go back to what we see in verse one. How was Paul called of God? And soon after, the church strays from God, revealing the truth to ecclesiastical councils, where certain groups or bands of Christianity are going to force politically their mindset on the other minority groups of Christianity stamping out what was originally believed. We see this with baptism for the dead, which was commonly practiced in Christianity by one group. Two other groups ganged up to stamp out that third group and said, no. From here on out, baptism for the dead is now branded as a heresy. A group of Christianity firmly believed that we were alive before we came here on this earth, and politically they stamped that out. That's kind of the history of these doctrines and where it's come and really the need, the essence for a restoration. And Paul's going to get there, too, with this. Let's go to verse ten, that in the dispensation of the fulness of times, he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth, even to him. And we're going to see this pop up a couple times in the New Testament. Here, Paul uses the word that's translated as dispensation. This word in the Greek means an organization, a household, an administration, a ruling, if you will. And so you start looking at this. Paul is teaching that there is going to be another administration, a house set up, an organization, a church created at the fullness of times. When he's talking about the fullness of times, he's talking about the end of times. You look at the glass as it fills up. The fullness is towards the top as it's finishing its deal. So Paul is saying that towards the end of times, there is going to be another administration, a dispensation. By saying dispensation, he's not referring to his current dispensation, but he's saying there's going to be another organization in order for another organization to happen. We'll see this plainly in other parts. Where Paul's talking about, there has to be a crumbling or a falling away of the current dispensation to where the house is going to be reorganized, reset, and the Lord is going to send his hand out again to gather his people, to call prophets, to call apostles. And so we starting to see some of these prophecies, these chapters, when we're talking about the Ephesians, are so beautiful because it's going to lay out the entire plan of salvation. It's talking about premortal. When a plan is laid out and a savior is decided upon the way by which we can return to God spotless despite our sins. We're going to talk about times when the Lord is going to establish his church here on the earth, when we're going to go through kind of a darkness and apostasy. And there's going to be a reorganization towards the last times. And not only that, but when he talks about this reorganization, verse ten, again, we're going to read this, that he might gather together in all, in one, all things in Christ. Both are which are in heaven and which are on earth. So this last dispensation when Christ is going to return to call prophets and apostles again. So already we should be expecting, if we listen to Paul and we follow his teachings, that there should be a reorganization with prophets and apostles, just like the church in his time, and that there should be, in this dispensation towards the last times, a gathering of things on heaven and things in earth. And so think about this for a second. What other dispensation is there? What other group, organization, order of God exists that is not only trying to collect all of Israel and the Gentiles together into one house, into one body, both here on earth, physically and in the heavens as well, spiritually? Where else do you see baptisms for the dead? Where else do you see the children being sealed to the parents? And where else do you see parents being sealed to each other so that all things in heaven are gathered together and all things in earth are gathered together? I'm reading Paul. Where else do you see that? And how else do you understand that if that's not what Paul's referring to? And so with these chapters, it's just beautiful, the clarity of what he's saying. And it just, I don't know, it sounds, it rings true. [00:31:16] Speaker B: Beautiful, the clarity of what he's saying when you understand, you know what I mean? Like, we're lucky from this perspective. From this perspective. Like, we're lucky. And it's, it also raises a good point, though, is like, how frustrating it would be to try to understand this if you don't have our, you know, the frame of reference, at least, that we're kind of working under. Right. And it is another, you know, I guess, pitch for the idea that it's like there's so much amazing information in the scriptures that we probably still don't even understand yet. Right. [00:31:50] Speaker A: Where's that perspective to get us there? [00:31:52] Speaker B: And that's, and that's why I, you know, one of our biggest pitches over the last few months has been, like, put in the work to be receiving personal revelation, be putting in the work to be discovering some of the, you know, the mysteries and the secrets and the depth of things in the scripture that we might not understand. Paul has been a wealth of examples of this, right, where it's like when you read it on its surface, sometimes it not only does it not make sense, it goes against really kind of what we believe in a lot of cases. And having been doing kind of some of my own kind of reading of opinions and things of Paul outside of our religious framework, it's interesting to read at least of a lot of people going, well, Paul just got this one wrong. Or Pauldin, like, even religious voices and religious opinions, instead of really addressing, instead of really trying to understand why, there's a lot of concession of, well, Paul probably just didn't have this one right. And sometimes even dismissing Paul a lot is like, well, he wasn't necessarily called when Jesus was here. So we need to definitely side with the apostles that were with Jesus when he was on earth. And we have to take Paul's writings for what they are, which is just opinions being written to different people and stuff like that. And I'm like, wow, that's totally, I can understand why, if you can't understand what's being said here, that's really kind of the only way you can get out of some of these things is by just dismissing them. Right? As like, oh, he just didn't understand. And to be fair, you and I have pushed back against some of the ideas too, as well, to go, you know, hey, Paul doesn't have to be perfect for us to still follow this, but the idea would be, instead of starting there with, well, he just must be wrong. The better place to start with. Is it me? Is, is it me? Like, how can I understand this better? And what work do I need to put in so that I can understand this? But to your point, and the point that I'm trying to make with all of this is imagine what would happen if, if people who, by the way, with the purest of intentions, striving to get closer to God through reading the scriptures and understanding the Bible that's maybe outside of our religious framework, were to go, what does he mean by this? Right. What if that is a question that could potentially spur the wanting to know of, like, what does this mean? What does he, why are we talking about these things that are being done both in heaven and on earth and trying to understand that? Because this is what we should be doing, which is if we don't understand something, think of the life changing personal revelation we could receive by not just saying, well, I don't understand, so I'm moving on, but instead saying, I want to dig into this and try to understand so that by the way maybe when a couple missionaries come along, or for us, when something maybe starts pushing back against our testimonies or what we believe. We've been building these roots, we've been receiving revelation, we've been learning the processes of finding truth in things we don't understand or using things we don't understand as a catalyst to motivate us to find the answers to these things. [00:35:36] Speaker A: One of the most powerful things we can have is a question to ask. Once we have that question, then the quest begins to find the answer. Then we can begin the journey. Then we're moving at least in the right direction. And that spiritual dissonance, if you want a good discussion on that, go back to our discussion of one corinthians 14, through whatever it was, right, that lack of harmony that we feel that gets us what's going on, that leads us to humility, leads us to asking God, to having that conversation starter and opens us up to a conversation with him. And what you were saying, I mean, it was beautiful. I almost want to take it one step further with an authority figure within the catholic church who made the news recently in challenging not what Paul was saying, but what Jesus Christ himself was saying. [00:36:28] Speaker B: Whoa. [00:36:29] Speaker A: To say, christ got it wrong. [00:36:32] Speaker B: Oh, no. [00:36:33] Speaker A: And it was on, on the Lord's prayer. And it says, father, when he said, we know the Lord's prayer. Right. Father, give us this day our daily bread, the whole. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He says, christ got it wrong and referring to him as father, because now he's applied a gender to God without God's permission, and that can be triggering. And we all know that God is not a male. We all know that God could be whatever it is, this idea or whatever. And what if we want to relate to God as a woman? Or what if we want to relate to God as so. So why do we call him Father Christ? Christ shouldn't have called him father. That's wrong. We need to correct the Lord's prayer. And so by taking the dissonance here and instead of being humble, to ask, is it me? But instead to attack the scriptures and to say, I mean, where do you draw the line? Paul got it wrong. Christ got it wrong. God got it wrong. Well, if you're saying that God got it wrong, then who are you saying got it right? Then if you think you're smarter than Goddesse, and maybe you don't think you're smarter than God, but think about what you're saying. If you're saying God got it wrong, because I know better, it puts you in dangerous footing. [00:37:56] Speaker B: And this is the thing is this is the line, though, that we need to be, when we learn the correct processes or a correct process of finding truth, it becomes we can become comfortable asking tough questions and trying to find the answers to them without feeling like that we're going to be walk because that's kind of the other side of that line, right? Is that we're supposed to be asking questions, we're supposed to be trying to find answers. But if we're doing it correctly, it should be led with the spirit or the understanding that I may get an answer back that I wasn't expecting or that maybe goes against some of my other social beliefs or that goes against some of my other preconceived religious ideas and not, well, if I'm, I'm pushing against all of this to try to try to prove why I'm smarter than fill in the blank, right? And even, and again, like, I understand that this is a fine line sometimes between those two, which is like you're saying the straight and narrow, right. Which is why it can be sometimes pretty easy accidentally to move from one extreme to the other to where it starts out as a very humble quest to try to understand something deeper and push back against ideas. Jason, you and I push back. This podcast is us pushing back against a lot of very cultural, kind of like ingrained phrases and ideas to try to just understand why. But I always feel like at least, you know, from our conversations, it very much is with the intent not to try to like discredit our faith or to try to prove anything wrong. It's to just really hopefully enhance it and sink deeper the roots right in what it is that we believe. And at the same time, I can also see how there's just a fine line there where it starts as that and becomes a, well, somebody must have got it wrong then. Cause as I know, it couldn't possibly be fill in the blank, right. But really, I can understand why that's scary a lot of times for people. I mean, we've talked about a lot in church history. It was very scary and was discouraged a lot of like go get information and learn and become educated and whatever. And like that. The idea of that started getting pushed against because of how easy it is to slip into, well, now that I have information, I now know better than church leaders, Paul, Jesus, God, like, it's like, oh my goodness, I can see how, why that would be scary. And unfortunately, instead of teaching, we're going to teach you how to do processes to where you can still rely on the spirit and listen to the dissonance inside you or the harmony inside of you and use that as a guide instead. It's just like, well, just don't ask questions. Just don't do that. Instead. Like, just avoid that whole thing in general. [00:41:02] Speaker A: It's like, oh, no, that's the opposite extreme. [00:41:04] Speaker B: That's like, that's like, that's not right either. Right. And so anyways, again, like I bring that up to say, this has been a theme of ours, which is encouraging, like, ask questions, but do so with the correct intentions, I guess. Right? And relying and knowing who to turn to to still ultimately receive the answer from. [00:41:29] Speaker A: I think Paul even described this really well, and it was echoed again in conference this weekend when Paul talks about prophecy and charity, and he says, seek you the best gifts, but then he says, but seek better charity. Though I were a prophet and could prophesy, I am nothing without charity. And then the very next chapter, he goes back and says, and seek charity, but even more importantly, seek prophecy. And you're like, wait, what? And he's saying that both of these are so important that they're more important than each other, but yet they're both singularly important. I mean, they're married. They go together. And Paul does this, by the way, by talking about a relationship between a man and a woman, where in one hand it almost seems like he's putting the man ahead of the woman, but then he reverses course. He says, neither is the man without the woman because he can't be alive as a man if you weren't born. And from a woman, she created you. So ultimately she is superior than you in that she gave you life like a God. But wait, woman came from Adam, so wait, is man. So which one's more important? And he keeps putting them both on top of each other. To say each independently is the most important. And together they're married. Go back to what we're saying with this again, and take, instead of prophecy, replace that with knowledge or revelation, because that's what prophecy is, right? Is a testimony of Christ. It's understanding, it's learning knowledge. And then take charity and replace it with love. And to know is one thing, but to do so in a loving way is what's going to make that work. Because if you love Paul, are you going to be hating on him? Are you going to try to twist what he's saying out of context because you hate him so much? It's the love. If you love Christ, are you not going to take the time to understand what he is saying from his point of view. It's not enough just to have that knowledge and to have that information and that learning, but also to love enough the perspective and where it's coming from, to love them so much that you're trying to understand them. And when you marry the concept of love with revelation and knowledge, that's when. That's when we become Christ. [00:43:47] Speaker B: Like really. That's when Christ is the ultimate example of those two things. Yeah, that's, that's. I'm with you. It's awesome. Anything else you wanted to say about this before we move on? [00:43:57] Speaker A: No, let's. Let's keep going. And there's one more thing I'm telling you. Chapter one was just, for me, powerful. And. And this is chapter one, verse 13, in whom ye also trusted. After that, you heard the word of truth, that the gospel of your salvation, in whom also after that ye believed ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. And that Holy Spirit, spirit of promise, sealing you is something that we talk about. It's important, but Paul's going to put this in slightly different terms that I really like. Verse 14, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession unto the praise of his glory. Now, now Paul's going to be talking about an adoption here. And this is something we've talked about before. He's saying, and believe what you want about man and our relationship with Goddesse. Paul is going to say that Christ is the only son of God. We are like the Gentiles. We're not the children. But through obedience, through the covenant, through the atonement, we become adopted into the children of God. And because we become adopted into the children of God, then we become co heirs with Christ. This is the plan. This is how man can stand blameless and holy before God. At the end, it's through the atonement. This is Paul lining out the plan of salvation. He's doing a masterful job of this. But as part of that, he says the Holy Spirit of promise is the earnest of this. And to say the earnest money, if you will. So the inheritance that we receive, when you're saying that there's earnest money, it's saying that you're paying a small portion of what you would for the full price in advance to show that you're genuine, that you're serious about doing this. So when we talk about the Holy Spirit of promise sealing us up, and the gift of the Holy Ghost and those feelings that the Lord sends to us, to guide us, to prompt us, and to help us know we're in the right path. That's just a down payment. It's earnest money to saying that you can feel like this all the time, you can be empowered all the time. You can be my children. This is just me showing you that I am serious about what I'm saying. This is how you gain a testimony. And that's what he's doing. He's not giving us everything that we know. He's giving us enough that we believe and we always want the full payment. And what relationship do you not wish that the whole payment would just come to you at one time. But just as much as he is required to put a down payment on his end to show earnestness, we are also required to be earnest on our end for this deal to work, to also exchange that in our choice to follow him, to be like him, and to take that earnest money and invest it and make more of it and do what we can with it. So I like the reference of the holy spirit of promise, and I find it fascinating to have it referred to as earnest payment. All right, I'm going to flip the page here. Chapter two and chapter three, we're going to talk about that relationship of being brought in the fold. And for all intents and purposes, these guys are gentiles. And he's talking to gentiles. He's going to talk about how they're on the outside and being brought in. But like we said here just recently, not only that, but aren't we all Gentiles, even those who consider themselves the house of Israel? Because think about what Paul's saying about the adoption of God and becoming his heir. Even Israel was not the literal son of God. Christ was the only son of God, the only one that was holy and blameless before goddess. So in a sense, even Israel has to become, through Christ, an insider, a people of the covenant. The abrahamic covenant isn't just a blanket save everyone for nothing. So even Israel, even whoever, the most righteous, whatever, can put themselves in the shoes of the Gentiles. Because what he's describing here really is the plan of salvation. Verse twelve, that at the time that you were out, you were without Christ, being aliens from the Commonwealth of Israel. So this is Ephesians, chapter two, by the way. Verse twelve, being aliens from the Commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus, ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace. Who hath made both one and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us. Now think about this for a second. The middle wall of partition that he has broken down between us. Who is he talking about? Who are we alienated from? And in a sense, you can almost read this and look at this and saying, oh, the Gentiles and the Jews, and there's this partition that's separating them. And now that's broken, you can become common with Israel. Yes, in a sense. But where was the literal wall of partition actually broken? It wasn't between Gentiles and Jews when Christ died on the cross, it was the veil that separated the holy of holies from the rest of the temple, from the rest of the world, if you will. And what's happening is that veil being rent before only the high priest, only Christ, because the high priest was supposed to be someone without blemish, was supposed to symbolize Christ himself. Only Christ himself could enter into the presence of God until after the atonement, in which time the veil is rent. And now we, who were strangers, who were aliens, who were on the outside, can enter into his presence because the partition was torn in the middle. And go on to read about this partition that's torn in the middle. Verse 15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances for to make in himself of twain new man, so making peace. And I think for a second when I read this, making in himself in twain, and I think about that veil, and what does that veil represent? And we're going to read this in another place in the New Testament, the veil in the temple was a symbol of Christ. What was rent? It's not just that the partition was rent, it's that Christ himself was rent. It was that he had to be torn, he had to be slain in order for us to enter into the presence of God. He was the veil that was rent so that we could become part of this. And where does this all happen? As Paul said, this was all determined long before the world was created. And think about that for a second. Why create an earth? Why go forward with any of this if you had no hope of seeing your children again? You wouldn't. You could not create the world, you could not create earth. There would be no purpose in any of this unless there was hope of being able to bring all of your children back to you through this plan. The plan had to be laid first and Christ had to be destroyed so that we could reunite to the presence of God and the image of gentiles joining the house of Israel is the same image of all the children of God being unified to Christ, because Israel is a type of Christ and the gentiles is a type of the rest of us. And through Christ, we can now enter into the holy of holies with Goddesse. And temple work expands, and it's going to go on. Verse 20. Well, actually, let's go back to 19 and read the beautiful of all of this. Now, therefore, ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints in the house of God. The veil has been rent. You can join us now. We're no strangers. We're not out in the cold. We are children of God and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. Jesus Christ himself being the cornerstone, in whom all the building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are builded together for inhabitation of God through the spirit, and the church becomes the temple of the Lord. And at the heart of that is that veil that was rent Christ, and that's what we're built on. And if the church is not built on Christ, is not built on the rending of the veil, is not built on his apostles and his prophets and his revelation, then there is no means that we can ever enter into the presence of God. It is like the tower of Babel. And those who thought they could invade heaven by building a tower high enough that they could find a way around Christ, that's why it's so important that the church is based on him. Revelation, ordinances, priesthood, and what he says, not what we think is the best decision or who may be the best apostle to serve for us today. [00:53:53] Speaker B: Nailed it. [00:53:56] Speaker A: There's. I mean, we're only two chapters in, but we're probably close to. [00:54:00] Speaker B: Yeah, we got 510 minutes left. [00:54:03] Speaker A: Okay, let's try to hit maybe a couple highlights here at the end. And, guys, if you want to just read through this book of Ephesians, it's worth the read, it's worth the time. There's a lot of beautiful things here. Obviously, we're not able to get through all of it. In Ephesians, chapter four, and he talks about one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one father, one church, but then he's talking about all of this oneness, right? And just because there's one, even as we talk about God being one, doesn't mean that there's just a single being in this relationship. And he's going to talk about one church. But even though you're talking about one church, skip down to verse eleven. And he gave some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists and some pastors and some teachers for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come in the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect mandeh and unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. Again, what is the purpose of this? And I love how Oak said this. It's not the balance of the actions that you did, it's who you become. And so why is it so important that he's giving to some the responsibility to be teachers to some evangelists, to some prophets, to some apostles, to some something? He needs us, and we need him. And we need the opportunity to engage, to do so that we might become, we need to be ministered to, and we need to minister to others and to kind of take this and wrap this all up. I think Paul, in his letter to the Ephesians, has done a fairly decent job talking about a plan that was laid before the foundation of the world, talking about the atonement of Jesus Christ in order to bring people blameless before God and this blood being able to bring people in and the process of becoming like him. And so far, everything we've seen is almost salvation on a very individual basis. And it feels like Paul's missing maybe one thing. And to take this back to what president that Oaks said in conference on Saturday, he said that salvation is an individual thing done on an individual level, but exaltation is done at the family level. And that's something that up to this point, Paul hasn't really included. He's talking about the salvation and this atonement. So now we get into the next chapter of Paul, and this is where he's even going to roll this out when he talks about the relationship. Now that we understand Christ giving his life to the church, to bring people to Christ, to bring people to God, he says this relationship, by the way, is the relationship that's required in a husband and a wife, that the wife should be willing to give of herself all that she is to her husband. But the husband is also supposed to be giving himself, even as Christ gave himself for the church, for her. And in here, by leaning on each other and giving everything up for each other, these two being twain, unify into one, and it's almost beautiful. You look at the veil that's being rent, and yet here with the husband and wife, it's almost being put back together or sewn back up. It's this restitution. And you see the family coming in here for this reason. Should a man leave his father and cleave to his wife to take what was separated in the garden of Eden, as Adam and Eve are separated, to join them back up and to make them one? And we get this restoration and this atonement. And Paul now brings in kind of almost the cherry on top, the family, the exaltation, what, what the crowning achievement of all of this means and the ability to be a family. [00:58:04] Speaker B: Nailed it. Awesome. Good stuff. Anything else you want to put on this, Orlando? I mean, I think we're. We're probably out of time. [00:58:14] Speaker A: We've. We've. We've probably given this a good shot. I know there's a lot more in there, but I mean, that's how it. [00:58:20] Speaker B: Is with every week. There's always a lot in there and it's just like we. [00:58:24] Speaker A: We inevitably. Next week. [00:58:25] Speaker B: Well, here's the thing. We don't. We really don't have the time to try to be thorough on all of the things that are discussed in this. And hopefully, again, like that still plays into the bigger picture idea of this, which is there's still so much more in this chapter for anybody to go in and really just cruise, you know what I mean? Like, our goal each week is to highlight enough stuff that it keeps you, you know, hopefully just getting. Getting unique perspective, truly, but also hopefully inspiring you to, on your own, go in and just, you know, dig into this stuff and. And really enjoy the process of learning and of uncovering and discovering a lot of the amazing things that there is in the texts that we are reading as a church or personally or whatever that is. All right. I think that we're probably going to wrap it up then. [00:59:23] Speaker A: Sounds good to me. [00:59:24] Speaker B: Appreciate you listening. We appreciate any sort of feedback. We appreciate all of the amazing insight and perspective you guys give us through the. Through emails or comments on various websites, social media and things. Please continue to do that. We really love the interaction that we have with those that listen to the show. You can get a hold of us at the email address of hiaklydeepdive.com. if there is anything that you would like to add to the conversation or to have us take a look at or questions that you might have that we might be able to answer, please hit us up through that. We are always thrilled to read the feedback and the questions. I think that that's all that we got for this week, so until next week.