Exodus 14 – 18 (Re-run)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the Add On Education Network. The podcast where we take a look at the weekly Come follow me discussion and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here in the studio with my friend and this show's producer, Nate Pfeiffer. [00:00:31] Speaker B: What's up? [00:00:32] Speaker A: Hey, Nate. [00:00:34] Speaker B: Welcome back to the country again. [00:00:36] Speaker A: Welcome back to the country again. Yeah, it's good to be in country. It's a good country to be in. [00:00:41] Speaker C: Had a fun trip again. [00:00:42] Speaker A: A fun trip. Getting a lot done. We're getting pretty close. A lot of game changers happening this week, and hopefully we get a bunch of orphans out next week. [00:00:51] Speaker B: Awesome. What are we talking about this week? [00:00:53] Speaker A: This week. Speaking of getting people out of country, [00:00:59] Speaker B: I see what you did there. Yeah. [00:01:01] Speaker A: Moses is on the run. [00:01:03] Speaker B: Moses with a group of refugees trying [00:01:07] Speaker A: to find his way. [00:01:09] Speaker B: I already know what post I'm gonna put in right here for that exact moment. [00:01:13] Speaker A: Oh, dear. [00:01:15] Speaker B: Did you hear me just exclaim a second ago? You just hit me with. Moses is coming out with a bunch of refugees? And I about fell out of my chair. I'm like, I know. In fact, I'm gonna download it right now. Go ahead. [00:01:25] Speaker A: Oh, dear. [00:01:26] Speaker C: All right. [00:01:27] Speaker A: Sounds good. [00:01:28] Speaker B: Oh, it sounds great. Trust me. [00:01:31] Speaker A: So we did get a. Now this gone. What I just could say. So somebody commented saying that for whatever reason, the show, when they tried listening to it, kept stopping for them. And I was curious, is that. Is that an experience that other listeners has had? Is that a unique one off, or is there something that we need to do to address that? [00:01:55] Speaker B: I don't know. I don't know what we would have done on our end. So, no, I don't know. I'm sorry that that is happening because I know how obnoxious and frustrating that can be. [00:02:02] Speaker A: Yep. Hopefully that's one off. You keep having problems. Let me know if you have problems. Just hit us up. Hi, weeklydeepdive. [00:02:08] Speaker B: Just hit us up. Anyways, hi. @weeklydeepdive.com. [00:02:12] Speaker A: yeah, we're like Moses. We don't want to hear your problems. Hit us up if you're happy, I imagine. [00:02:18] Speaker C: All right, let's go. [00:02:19] Speaker A: All right, I'm sorry. [00:02:22] Speaker B: No, you don't need to be sorry. All right, let's do it. [00:02:25] Speaker A: So one quick Note from Exodus 12:13 right before we dive into this lesson today, something I feel like is a missed opportunity we really could hit. When the Lord took the firstborn of all of Egypt and their families, their cattle, their flocks, whatever the case may be, and Israel was able to be passed over by this plague with the blood marked on the post. The Lord tells Israel that because the firstborn were redeemed of him, that they need to redeem the firstborn. That was something that should have been given to the Lord. And in order to keep their firstborn, they had to redeem the firstborn by sacrificing a lamb offering, an offering in the place of the firstborn that didn't die. And you look at the priesthood and where this is going to come, because the Levites, when they take the place of the firstborn for Israel, and they become consecrated to the Lord to serve with the priesthood in place of the firstborn, that is their offering. But you look here in particular with Moses and Israel coming out. Moses is not the firstborn son. Aaron is the firstborn son. Aaron is the one that is going to be consecrated as a high priest. And it is Aaron's line that retains the priesthood. The priesthood is not going to go through Moses, but through the firstborn. I find it kind of interesting, and I love that image of the sacrifice, redeeming the firstborn, especially in light of what we've been talking about when we talked about the firstborn not getting it, almost kind of being sacrificed so that someone else could become the firstborn, and Christ ultimately being the firstborn who was sacrificed, who gave his life as a lamb, so that we could be redeemed as a firstborn and inherit all that God has. So I. I like that imagery. [00:04:19] Speaker B: It's killer. [00:04:20] Speaker A: Let's go Into Exodus, chapter 14. Moses takes the people, and rather than just going anywhere, he follows the directions that the Lord gives him. In fact, the Lord is very specific on where to take them. And he tells them right at the end of 13 to avoid the land of the Philistines. And the reason that he gives is lest the Israelites see the war and they decide to go back to Egypt. So this is not a people that is ready to go in and fight and establish themselves in the land and be willing to fight with their neighbors for their existence. They are more willing to rely on the Egyptians to do that for them or their more powerful neighbors. They are a little bit shy about this. They do leave. It says as they leave, they are harnessed. And that is a weird way of translating that word into the English. When it says that Israel leaves harnessed, it doesn't mean that they're all wearing horse gear or whatever. It means that they're in battle array. That's what that Word is, so they do come out prepared for battle, but the Lord is. Is avoiding any major battle sites lest they lose their will. And. And you can tell from the beginning that there is a long ways that these people have to go through to become who they are going to be. And the Lord tells them specifically to go to the Sea of Reeds, which has been translated this Dead Sea. And they come to the border here, and it is surrounded by wilderness. And why that is significant, they have got. Not only do they have close to a million people with them, or potentially over a million people with them, 600,000 men with their families, but they have flocks, they have their cattle. And if they're surrounded by large swaths of wilderness, crossing through that wilderness with that many people logistically is impossible. They have hemmed themselves in by wilderness and Pharaoh who told them to leave. And all of the people eager to get them out after the death of the firstborn and worried that the rest of them would be doomed as well. They're paying the Israelites money, telling them to go immediately, so fast that the whole unleavened bread, you don't have time for your bread to rise. Just get out. When Pharaoh hears that they actually did leave, and here I have to think that this is a little bit of an economic repercussion, if that's the right way to put it. He tells them to leave, but when he realizes that they actually did, I almost think that maybe Pharaoh didn't think they would do it. He tells Moses and Aaron to go, but will the people really follow him? They are comfortable, they are established. Where are they going to go? Who is this Moses guy? Is he really proven? Are they going to follow him? And when they tell Pharaoh that the people actually did leave, and he sees the fallout from it, what is the fallout? You have a large working class who is providing all of your bricks, who is doing all of the jobs that you don't particularly want to do. All of a sudden, a million of those people leave. Okay, so can you imagine if we had a million people just up and quit their jobs, jobs that people don't particularly want to do? What kind of impact is that gonna have on the economy? [00:07:49] Speaker B: Sure. [00:07:50] Speaker A: And I feel like we're experiencing that to a small degree even now with our economy. As you talk about the great walkout. Okay, so when they. They see this happening already, they've been devastated by the plagues, and now they have their working class quit. And when Pharaoh looks, he says, these people, and it says in the English are entangled so by entangled, it means confused. They're testing the leadership of Moses and not that he is. As they go out to where they go, he's taking them onto an island. But they can't cross the sea, they can't cross over, because the wilderness has hemmed them all in. It looks like terrible leadership. They're in a position where there is nothing that they can do. And Pharaoh is saying they are confused. They don't have a good leader. They are going to run out of resources, exhaust what they have on this little oasis, and this people are going to die or wish they had come back to Egypt. He might even be looking at this from a humanitarian role. What do we need to do to pull these back in and rescue these ungrateful people and give them security, give them somewhere to go and make them feel bad about having left. So he wrestles together his chariots, his horses, his men, and he says, look, let's go rescue these confused people and pull them back out. The only thing I want to say about that is again, this message that President Monson would say over and over again that the wisdom of God often appears as foolishness to man. But the single greatest lesson that we can learn is that when man listen, that when God speaks and a man listens, that man will always be right. [00:09:36] Speaker C: Yep. [00:09:38] Speaker A: So as bad as a decision as it seemed for Moses to go where he was, and as foolish as it seemed to Pharaoh and as foolish as it seemed to the Israelites when Pharaoh shows up, we know the story. God parts the sea. And this is pretty interesting. I dare say that the miracle was not the parting of the sea. [00:10:00] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:10:01] Speaker A: Okay. We've seen, in fact, there was a scientific paper published on this a few years ago that said that all it would take is a wind 65 miles an hour to separate the sea of reeds, and that this is something that's happened. And not only that, we have a journal record from Major General Alexander Tulloch of the British army in 1882. From his journal, he writes, a gale of wind from the eastward set in and became so strong that I had to cease work. Next morning on going out, I found the Lake Menzela, which had been situated on the west side of the Suez Canal, had totally disappeared. The effect of the high wind on the shallow water having actually driven it away beyond the horizon. The natives were walking about on the mud where they before had been fishing boats, now aground, had been floating. So this miracle is not something that's necessarily an isolated event. It's not Something that's scientifically impossible. It's something that has happened that can happen. I don't know that the miracle is the parting of the sea. [00:11:12] Speaker B: I'm literally trying to find a video on this right now, because if that's. [00:11:15] Speaker A: I. [00:11:17] Speaker C: Look, I'm not saying that I don't [00:11:18] Speaker B: believe that, but I'm just saying, like, is that true? [00:11:21] Speaker C: With the wind? [00:11:22] Speaker A: Yes. [00:11:24] Speaker C: How deep is this sea? [00:11:28] Speaker A: It's a great question because, like, it's. [00:11:30] Speaker C: It's. [00:11:30] Speaker A: If. [00:11:30] Speaker C: It's. That if it can be blown that easy, it's got to be pretty shallow, right? [00:11:34] Speaker A: Shallow, but still deep enough. Like, in this case, the guy had fishing boats floating on there. I mean, you've got boats. [00:11:42] Speaker B: All right, I'm going to find you. [00:11:43] Speaker C: Keep going. But I'm definitely. I'm. [00:11:45] Speaker B: I'm. I believe you. I would like to see some video explanation on this, because that seems insane to me. [00:11:52] Speaker A: And, and, and perhaps it's. It's a bigger deal than. Than what I'm saying. It is. I wasn't there. [00:11:56] Speaker C: Maybe it's just not like the movie, because, again, it's hard to imagine that. It's just hard to imagine. Yeah. Because, see, I'm pulling up the pictures [00:12:02] Speaker B: of, like, the Ten Commandments, right where it's like Moses. Yeah. [00:12:07] Speaker C: It's like the wall of water on [00:12:08] Speaker B: both sides, and it's being. It's being separated down the middle. [00:12:12] Speaker A: And they do say that there was a wall of water on the right hand. A wall of water on the left hand. I don't want to take anything away from the miracle itself and the parting of the sea. [00:12:20] Speaker B: All right. [00:12:20] Speaker A: But the Egyptians didn't seem overly concerned about it. For them to follow right in with it. [00:12:26] Speaker B: That's true. [00:12:28] Speaker A: But here, what I. Here's what I think the great miracle is. Tell me the fact that Moses was in the right place at the right time to take advantage of. That's. [00:12:37] Speaker B: That is a. [00:12:38] Speaker A: That is fantastic perspective, because you already have this pillar of fire, this cloud. There's some weather events that are happening here, some wind that's blowing, some things that are happening for Moses to be at the right place at the right time, because that's what the Lord told him to do. That to me, is the miracle. [00:13:00] Speaker B: Amen, brother. That's a great. That is fantastic perspective because he. There's a lot to learn from that, too. Like, I don't. I don't think we need to just blow by that. Right. Like, that's. That's maybe one of the first and initial, like, fantastic Lessons that we can kind of learn from this week is that you, you, you said, and I just kind of want to just put a bow on it a little bit. And that is when we sometimes feel prompted to do something that might seem crazy or that might seem strange. But we feel deeply that we're being asked to do it, not be afraid to do it. Because again, like you just, you never know. Be in the right place at the right time. Fantastic. Yeah. [00:13:41] Speaker A: And the Egyptians also tried to cross over, right? [00:13:44] Speaker B: They were at the wrong place at [00:13:45] Speaker A: the wrong time, but they're, but their timing wasn't. [00:13:50] Speaker B: It's a little bit too late, Pharaoh, [00:13:51] Speaker A: a little bit too late. And their preparation. And sometimes you show up to something thinking that you're extremely prepared, right. You look at how the Egyptians were pursuing the Hebrews. The Egyptians had chariots, the Hebrews were on foot. But we all know when you're going in a chariot wheel, crossing an area that used to be underwater, it's going [00:14:16] Speaker B: to be pretty muddy, right? [00:14:17] Speaker A: It's going to be absolutely pretty muddy. Those wheels, you think of the weight, right? You've got your foot which is somewhat spread out to support your weight and you're taking how many pounds per square inch on your foot? But now chariot, and you look at that wheel, as big as that wheel is going to be, you've got what, a couple inches period to support the entire weight. And you have one, two, couple people standing in that chariot. Now you have their weight not distributed over several inches. You've got lots of weight over a small area. And it sinks, it sinks right into the ground. And you know what? This story, well, let me get to this story. A few years back I had the opportunity to go with a group of young men down to Moab on an adventure. And we brought bicycles very similar to these chariot, you know, if you will, the wheels that's supporting our weight as we're going. And what we thought we got on the trail about five in the morning. The idea that this was going to be maybe a five mile trail with our bikes that we would go get done off of it by 8am, have breakfast, find our camp out. The reason we did it this way is so that we would be in the early hours of the morning where it wasn't super hot so we wouldn't be dehydrating the boys or anything. Then we would find some shade, some water activities in the day and then just plan our bike trips to morning, evening. However, as well prepared as we thought we were, it did not go out that, well, this trail, what we thought was five miles, was actually a loop that we didn't take. And we were extending it all the way down to some other area. [00:16:01] Speaker B: Oh man. [00:16:01] Speaker A: And we hit sand, heavy sand. And if you've ever tried to bike in sand before, I felt like Pharaoh going through and chariot wheels with this mud, the wheels sank and you could not ride your bikes through that. We had to get off and try to push it. So that's what the Lord. And here it's saying that the Lord caused their wheels to be coming off and it was pulling heavy and they were stuck. They were getting stuck in the mud. So as Israel comes out and these guys are delayed again back to the preparation here, chariots, they're thinking that they're prepared. If you take it before the crossing of the sea. What group is better prepared? The wheels and the horses to catch up to the Hebrews or the Hebrews on foot. The wisdom of God appearing like foolishness. It seemed like the Egyptians were much better equipped. Little did they know they would be crossing a lake bed. And now all of a sudden, the foolishness of God. Yeah, we got them. And as they're stuck almost like a mouse on a glue trap, the wind stops blowing, the sea returns and they're done. I've anyways, I probably spent too much time. [00:17:12] Speaker B: That's great. [00:17:13] Speaker C: Let's keep going. [00:17:14] Speaker A: Let's move on. I do find it interesting that they say that the wind comes from the east. The east wind is something that we see throughout the Bible in several places. And when we say east wind, it means it's coming from the east to the west. Which interesting enough is again the direction of the temple as it faces the east. And the idea that you have to approach Eden back from the east, headed towards the west. The idea that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, that it's coming from God, that that is a divine wind, but usually associated with destruction. When Joseph interprets the dream of Pharaoh that there would be seven years of famine in the dream, he says that the east wind is going to come and cause the famine and bring it. When the plagues happen. It's the locusts that are brought in on the east wind. And it talks about the east wind. You see it in the Book of Mormon. You see about its destruction. Look at the creation, the breath of God upon the wind. The spirit of God moving upon there. This idea that chaos is going to be doomed, the dragon is going to be slain. So there's this idea of destruction to the Chaos, but also the sense that order is going to be coming from it. That something is being destroyed so that something else can be created, so something else can be born. It's an interesting concept, one that does not escape literature. One of my favorite books, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes. [00:18:44] Speaker B: Love Sherlock Holmes. I love them. [00:18:46] Speaker A: Yes. So we're gonna bring in a Sherlock Holmes reference. This is his last bow. Is it bow or bo? Pro. My bad. [00:18:59] Speaker B: Is it on a boat? I don't know what you're talking about. [00:19:01] Speaker A: The book. His last bow. [00:19:03] Speaker B: B O, W. Bow. [00:19:04] Speaker A: Bow. [00:19:05] Speaker B: It's spelled B O W. I think it's bo, but it might be bow. Okay, okay, keep going. [00:19:11] Speaker A: Anyhow, this is what Sherlock Holmes says. There's an east wind coming, Watson. Watson replies. I think not, Holmes. It is very warm. Good old Watson. You are the one fixed point in a changing age. There's an east wind coming all the same. Such a wind as never blew on England yet. It will be cold and bitter, Watson. And a good many of us may wither before its blast, but it's God's own wind nonetheless. And a cleaner, better, stronger land will lie in the sunshine when the storm has cleared. [00:19:45] Speaker B: Love reminds me a lot of the dualities that we speak about, right? Where something, where something that can create, can destroy. And you kind of even brought it up too of like the idea of the east wind being the idea of destruction. And in this case it is also a destruction, right? But it's like the saving. It's the breath of life for the children of Israel, but it's also basically the word of condemnation for the, for the, the chariots and people following Moses out. [00:20:17] Speaker A: I absolutely love it because how many times in the scripture does it talk about the word of God being like a two edged sword? [00:20:24] Speaker C: Preach, baby. [00:20:26] Speaker A: And what is word except for the wind or breath coming out of his mouth? And if you've got two edges, one being to save and the other being to destroy. And through destruction he is allowed to create or save. [00:20:42] Speaker B: And also too, we're told that by our words we will either be what? Saved or condemned or what? You know what I mean? Like by, by. [00:20:51] Speaker A: And you're judged by the words. [00:20:52] Speaker B: That's what it is. We're judged. Yeah, exactly. And that's. I mean, I do love, I do love the idea that the. Throughout our lives, those things that we say will either be the things that save us or condemn us, or the things that we do will either be the things that save us or condemn us. [00:21:08] Speaker A: And the things that we read. [00:21:09] Speaker B: Right. [00:21:09] Speaker A: If we're reading the scriptures and we know, but we still reject it, then that'll stand as a witness against it. But yet reading those words enables us, empowers us, and we're saved. [00:21:20] Speaker B: We can't be saved in ignorance. Right? [00:21:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:23] Speaker B: And so it's like we're basically reading the way to eternal life. But like you said, we're also responsible for those things that we know and understand. The two edged sword. I like that. I like the east wind. [00:21:34] Speaker A: Well, where we are talking about duality, maybe we should get to the duality of water as well. [00:21:39] Speaker B: Okay, all right, fantastic. Let's do it. [00:21:41] Speaker A: Because here we have a sea that is being parted, talking about the saving of Israel, but it is going to be flooding in and destroying them as they wander. What is one of the first things they happen is they get to an area where, where there is no fresh water to drink. They come to the waters of Marah. Right, okay. And Mara, interestingly enough, is the same Hebrew word from which we get the name of Jesus, Mother Mary. It means bitter. [00:22:12] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:22:12] Speaker A: It's kind of weird, huh? So this water is called Mara because it is bitter. They can't drink it. It cannot sustain life. And we're talking about duality of water. And like the sea, chaos, destruction, but then the life giving water of providing life. Okay, so what they do, Moses is commanded by the Lord to take a tree and put it in the water and it purifies the water and makes it fresh. The tree, we've talked about this before, is an image of Christ. Look at the menorah that's in the temple. We see it in the book of Revelation when he's on this guided tour. And he looks, the Lord calls him and he looks and he beholds the menorah and then he sees the Lord in the midst of the menorah. This idea, this imagery which we also saw in the Book of Mormon when Nephi asks to understand the vision of the tree of life, and instead he sees the birth of our Savior and says, now do you understand the tree whose fruit is atonement, salvation everlasting? [00:23:20] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly, yeah. [00:23:21] Speaker A: His whole purpose, his role, his life was to provide salvation through this fruit. So this tree as a symbol of Christ who goes into the bitter waters and life, or the water becomes fresh, the water becomes this different kind of water to where it can save. And I look at this image of the water and the tree and I can't help but think of Mary and Jesus and the condition of mankind before Christ was Born is a condition of bitterness. And yet from that bitterness is born Christ, who was prepared from before the foundation of the world to heal the waters so that our life is no longer condemnation, but this blessing that we can be born again, that there can be living, there can be life and life sustaining from the waters. [00:24:19] Speaker B: I wonder how this ties back into Christ being given vinegar instead of water even at the very end. Like, I wonder if it's just the completion of a cycle. Right? Okay, Like, Christ came, like you said, from a world of bitterness to redeem the world, and even at the end, still had to, like, descend below at all or something. I guess I'm wondering where that ties back in. [00:24:47] Speaker A: And maybe mankind offered him bitterness, but what did he return in exchange when his spear was thrust in the side? [00:24:53] Speaker B: Water. Blood and water. [00:24:56] Speaker A: So again, you have. [00:24:57] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:24:58] Speaker A: Again, you have this bitterness and yet this fresh water that we might offer bitterness, but he returns it and makes it sweet. [00:25:06] Speaker B: I love you, Jason. [00:25:07] Speaker A: And maybe he consecrates our bitterness, the experiences. So this is a sign that, you know, Israel is going to go through and they're going to have a very bitter experience. They're going to not have as they [00:25:17] Speaker B: deserve, by the way. [00:25:19] Speaker A: Let's talk about that, too. [00:25:21] Speaker B: Let's talk about it, baby. [00:25:23] Speaker A: They're not going to have food. They're going to be wandering for a long time and they're going to have to fight. They're going to have to go through a lot. They're going to. It's going to be bitter. And he's going to consecrate that bitterness, that trial, that proving and refine a nation that can represent him for thousands of years afterwards. He's going to take that bitterness and make something of it. [00:25:46] Speaker B: Yeah, because they were bitter. [00:25:48] Speaker A: They were bitter. [00:25:48] Speaker B: It's hard to read some of these stories without just being like, everybody out of the pool. Just kill them all. Leave them. Moses, you did your best, buddy. [00:25:58] Speaker A: Moses was pretty, pretty patient. [00:26:00] Speaker B: Moses is awesome. All right, let's keep going. [00:26:03] Speaker A: He gets stuck in a hard place. Do you want to talk about their complaining? Yes. [00:26:08] Speaker C: So that at least nobody misunderstands whatsoever [00:26:11] Speaker B: why I have such an issue with the children of Israel throughout the next few weeks of podcasting. [00:26:16] Speaker A: All right, let's hear it. [00:26:20] Speaker C: They're the worst, man. [00:26:24] Speaker A: They. Okay, let's. Let's. I'll play the devil's advocate. [00:26:28] Speaker B: I. [00:26:29] Speaker C: Which you probably should do, because, like, for me, I'm legitimately just like, see [00:26:33] Speaker A: you guys, you've got a million people. [00:26:35] Speaker B: Okay, wait. [00:26:37] Speaker A: A million six hundred thousand men. And remember, all right, Pharaoh was trying to limit the birth of men. [00:26:45] Speaker C: He killed a bunch of the men. Okay, so. Okay, so, fine, let's say a million people. You got a million people, and you're [00:26:51] Speaker A: taking them with their flocks. And he says, God wants us to leave this land. Okay, we're going out on prayer here. We're going to follow you. What? Now? [00:27:01] Speaker C: Instead of being slaves and just trodden down in this land where other people [00:27:07] Speaker B: just abuse us and disrespect us. Yeah. [00:27:09] Speaker C: Okay, cool. [00:27:09] Speaker A: Okay, I'll take. This is an excellent point. Do we exchange freedom for security? [00:27:17] Speaker C: See, this is why. Dude, that's my point, man. And by the way, this is the point that drives 99% of my politics. I'm just telling you, the answer is no. I do not trade in safety for lack of freedom. [00:27:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:38] Speaker C: So I am judging them through that lens. Give me liberty or give me death, baby. Proud to be an American. [00:27:48] Speaker A: It's an excellent question. [00:27:49] Speaker C: No, I mean, it is, but I don't know. For me, there's an answer to that question. That's all I'm saying. That's all I'm saying is that these dudes, the first thing they start doing is whine about, oh, we should just go back. [00:28:00] Speaker A: I would rather be a slave. [00:28:01] Speaker C: I'd be like, send them back, Moses. [00:28:03] Speaker A: Because at least as a slave, I was getting three square meals a day. [00:28:07] Speaker C: Send them back, Moses. [00:28:09] Speaker A: And a place to sleep. [00:28:10] Speaker C: I'd be like, peace, Even part the sea for you to get back across. Take the staff with you. I don't need it anymore. It's just gonna get me in trouble. [00:28:21] Speaker A: At this point, the staff turns into the beating rod. Spare the rod, spoil the chad. [00:28:28] Speaker C: Here, take the. Take the rod. [00:28:29] Speaker B: Have fun. [00:28:33] Speaker A: Okay, continue. Devil's advocate, I'm not doing a very good job. [00:28:37] Speaker C: No, you're not convincing me of anything. [00:28:40] Speaker A: Okay. [00:28:40] Speaker B: I know. God loved them. [00:28:42] Speaker A: So you're on a camping trip, okay. With a million other people. [00:28:45] Speaker B: Okay. It sounds like a party to me. I love camping. [00:28:49] Speaker A: And God says, hey, come, follow me. [00:28:51] Speaker C: Yep. [00:28:52] Speaker A: And you get in the wilderness, and you're like, you know what? I'm getting kind of hungry. And you're looking around. There's not a lot of great options. [00:29:00] Speaker C: Here's a great option. [00:29:01] Speaker A: What is it? [00:29:02] Speaker C: You've got a million people. [00:29:03] Speaker A: Are you saying you eat them? [00:29:05] Speaker C: No, you go conquer somebody. [00:29:09] Speaker A: Weaponize your army, bro. [00:29:12] Speaker C: You're that hungry. Hey, Moses, can we just go, like, murder these other people and take all their stuff? [00:29:17] Speaker A: Sure. [00:29:17] Speaker C: You Got an army. [00:29:19] Speaker A: Okay, then, then, then what do you do? Because you're not in charge. And. And the guy that is in charge has you camping right here, not fighting other people. [00:29:27] Speaker B: All right? [00:29:28] Speaker C: I mean, I guess that's why they're mad at Moses. [00:29:31] Speaker A: They say, moses, what now? Like, you're supposed to be this amazing leader. [00:29:36] Speaker B: Oh, man, we don't have food. I guess hindsight's 20 20. I find that's your best point, by the way. [00:29:42] Speaker C: That's your best point. [00:29:43] Speaker B: As devil's advocate. [00:29:44] Speaker C: I'm making your best point for you, [00:29:46] Speaker B: Jason, as devil's advocate is that hindsight is 20 20. [00:29:50] Speaker C: Is that it's easy for us to look back and go, like, dudes. Like, come on. [00:29:54] Speaker A: Here's where I sympathize with them. And by the way, for the record, I'm with you on security, freedom. Anyways, that can be a whole political discussion that would take us down a rabbit hole. I don't want to go down. Let me sum this up in another story from the New Testament, if I may. Please, Master. The tempest is raging. Carest thou not that we perish? Are they not doing the same thing as Christ's disciples? They are sitting on a boat in a storm and they think we are going to die. If you don't have fresh food and water, you are going to die in the wilderness. And you can even look at this from a faithful perspective in the sense that God promised Abraham seed. And if we sit here and die, carest thou not that we perish? What about the covenant with Abraham? What are we supposed to do? Are we supposed to accept God and die? Are we willing to be the Isaac that the Lord is asking us to be? Are we willing to sacrifice ourselves so that this nation can be established and still somehow believe in the impossible? That this nation will be established if we die as a people? That's a hard ask. Can you blame them for waking the master when they say, hey, this storm is going crazy? [00:31:23] Speaker C: The thing is, if it was a one time thing. No, no. If it's a one time thing. No, if it's, hey, we're pretty hungry. What are we gonna do? I'm like, okay, I get that. But it's just the constant, constant complaining. [00:31:41] Speaker A: Well, and let me turn this back. [00:31:43] Speaker C: We should just go back to Egypt. Fine, go back. It's just the constant complaining and words that I'm not gonna say on this [00:31:50] Speaker B: podcast, but you know what I mean? [00:31:53] Speaker C: Just like, if I was Moses, at a certain point, I'd be like, leave. Fine, go back. Any of the rest of you that would like to not be in bondage and actually make it to the promised land eventually, you come with me. Everybody else, see ya. By the way, you don't need all those people, Moses. You don't need a million people. You didn't need that. Look at all of the stories that we're gonna get to in the Old Testament. You need a small but faithful crew. [00:32:20] Speaker A: Yes. [00:32:21] Speaker C: See you guys. We're moving on without you. [00:32:26] Speaker A: So why didn't he say see you? [00:32:27] Speaker C: Because he loved him too much, man. I don't know. [00:32:30] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:32:30] Speaker C: He loved him. He loved him more than I would. And by the way, this is probably. This is probably the point that that [00:32:37] Speaker B: makes to me more than anything. [00:32:38] Speaker C: It's. It's probably why I've literally come to [00:32:41] Speaker B: think maybe Moses is the dopest of all of the guys in these things. [00:32:45] Speaker C: Because this. This prophet loved his people so much that even if the Lord's going, hey, Moses, do you want me to take care of this? Moses, Like, I love them. Remember that. You love them, too, please. I'm just like, Moses. You're literally my favorite guy. [00:33:05] Speaker A: I think it shows incredible love that regardless of how they felt, they're terrified. When Pharaoh comes after them. It says, sore afraid. And I do not think sore afraid translates very well. I think extremely terrified probably resonates a little bit more. These people were afraid, and these people wanted security. They were used to security, and they were not used to freedom. And this is a very big transition for them, and they are not sure what to do. They are looking for Moses to lead them. And it seems interesting that God would again and again put them in a situation where they would be tested, where they would not have enough, where they quite honestly questioned whether they would still be alive with what God was asking them to do. Why would God do that? Why wouldn't God lead them to a nice, fresh area? It's his people. He loves them. [00:34:02] Speaker C: Okay, but he did. [00:34:05] Speaker A: Not now. Not yet. [00:34:06] Speaker C: Not yet. But I'm saying he did, though. [00:34:08] Speaker A: Hindsight. [00:34:09] Speaker C: He leads them there. They send in the spies, and what does everybody do? [00:34:14] Speaker A: We're not there yet. [00:34:15] Speaker C: Chicken out. It's like, dude, you got a million people. It's time to. It's time to seize the palace, boys. [00:34:28] Speaker A: But we're not there yet. [00:34:29] Speaker C: Okay, but we're not there yet. But we're. [00:34:31] Speaker A: He leads them to where? He leads them to the Dead Sea. Well, that actually works out for their benefit then. [00:34:36] Speaker C: See, and this is my point, this is the whole, like, layman and Lemuel [00:34:39] Speaker A: thing, then it leads them to the bitter waters. Still ends up making it work out for them. [00:34:43] Speaker C: That's my point. This is the. You're now making my point for me. You're doing a terrible job as the devil's advocate. [00:34:51] Speaker A: I've never been a good devil. [00:34:52] Speaker C: You're doing a terrible job at it. Because the point now is, for me, miracle, miracle, you're saved. There's no problem. There's no problem. Saved. [00:35:01] Speaker A: See? [00:35:01] Speaker C: Perspective, perspective, perspective. It's the layman and Lemmon thing, dude. At a certain point with those guys, you've seen enough to know better. [00:35:07] Speaker A: But what is it easier to focus on? Is it the miracles in the past that have blessed you? Or is it the hardships that you're facing in front of you that you're not sure how you're going to get to? [00:35:16] Speaker C: I understand that. That's human nature. And again, I actually appreciate that lesson [00:35:20] Speaker B: in here, by the way, too. [00:35:22] Speaker C: And it's something that I talk about constantly because it's truly the most present thing that I have to continually learn and remind myself. And that is, in the moment, things seem overwhelming and things seem impossible. I get that that's human nature, is that no matter how much evidence we have that things are going to work out okay, if you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, being stuck in a present crisis is overwhelming and it feels like it's the only thing. And then time gives you perspective and you go, oh, yeah, that's yet another example. But I'm just saying, it's like, dude, at a certain point, when are we not responsible for keeping perspective? Like, at a certain point, when should we not be expected to have perspective on these things? Or is it just. That's the human experience. [00:36:20] Speaker A: And I think that's why it became critical for God to say to tell Moses. And the Lord said unto Moses, write this for a memorial in a book and rehearse it. It's not just that this happened. I want everyone to remember this happened because you are going to be tested. And I think. I think where we see this and God's rationale and Israel's relationship play out most significantly is in the story of the manna, when they're hungry and they don't have anything to eat, God says he's going to bless them with manna, but he also tells them that this is going to be something that he's going to use them to prove them with. [00:37:09] Speaker B: Love it. [00:37:10] Speaker A: And he sends the manna. And you know, the story Very well. He sends the manna not just by itself, but with specific instructions on how much you should gather every day. And what happens with the people when it first shows up? They hoard it. And the manna that they hoard, that is in excess of what they're commanded to gather, rots, goes bad, has worms in it, unusable. And then when it comes to the Sabbath, they say, okay, double how much you are going to get on Saturday. And the people having experienced, so now they're leaning on their own understanding, their own wisdom, their own experience, which we should to some point, right? No, I don't trust that God's right on this. Are you sure? Because last time I did this, it went wrong and it did not go good for me. I think I'm just going to gather only enough for today and go out tomorrow and gather what I want. And what happens to them, the people that gathered extra? They have plenty for the Sabbath day to get them through. And those who didn't were sorely disappointed the next morning when there's no manna for them to gather. [00:38:16] Speaker B: It's funny because like, that's the key to this being a faith driven situation, right? Is that there's a different rule for the Sabbath than it is, you know what I mean? Because then you can't logically work your way through it. Logically. It doesn't make any sense to have it be totally one way for six days and then totally a different way for the seventh or five and six days, you know what I mean? For it to be a faithful thing, it has to defy logic. [00:38:42] Speaker A: So take this people before the example of the manna and look at their, their track record of listening to what God Sundays on the first time. [00:38:53] Speaker B: It's not a good track record. [00:38:54] Speaker A: And let me ask this question, okay? If you want a people to represent you over the next 4,000 years and you want the Passover, which you just walked away from, and we talked about this last week, how powerful the Passover is as a prophecy of Christ and his coming and his, his death and how he was going to die and standing as a testimony 2000 years even before he came. I don't know that there is any better witness to the atonement than the Passover itself. Would a people, as you see them, right, with the first manna, Would that people be able to carry that tradition for 4,000 years? Would a people that didn't go through this learning curve, that weren't forced to go in and rely on the Lord, that didn't see Those miracles that weren't tested and proven wrong over and over and over again until they get it right. What nation would have carried that tradition for thousands of years that hadn't gone through that process, that hadn't been told no? This is why you have to obey it down to the very letter. I think that right there is the reason why you see these people being led in areas where there is no water, where there is no bread, where they do have the manna, and they're taught, this is what you need to do, and this is why it's important that you do it with exactness. This is why you need to obey, and this is why you need to observe this, to train them, to discipline them. One, to become a nation, but two, to become a testimony to the world about the role of Christ and what he was going to play. [00:40:46] Speaker B: Fantastic. Let's keep going. [00:40:48] Speaker A: Speaking on the Sabbath, when we are talking about the observant there, these Jews become extremely observant, and maybe I should [00:40:56] Speaker B: say Hebrews, because we are the Jews, totally. [00:40:59] Speaker A: But yes, the Hebrew people become extremely observant to the Sabbath. To the point of if you are doing something on the Sabbath, you get killed. And I find one extreme here in the Old Testament. But in the New Testament, you see the opposite extreme. When Christ is walking with his disciples and people criticize them for gleaning some corn or doing work on the Sabbath. And Christ says that the Sabbath was created for man, not man for the Sabbath. So you have these two opposite extremes. Where do those extremes meet? And is there a balance where we say, yes, we need to be observant, and yes, we need to be a disciplined people, and yes, we need to be a faithful people, a proven people. But what's the reason? Discipline in what? Faith in what? It's not faith in the actions. It's not faith in the rights. It's faith in God. And when you replace God with the actions, with the ceremonies, with what you're doing, you've lost the point. It can never be faith in baptism. It can never be faith in a ritual. It can never be faith in. In that the waters will separate. There has to be faith in God, that he will guide you through there. And that's where I find the balance between Old Testament, New Testament, trying to pull us and center us in that [00:42:25] Speaker B: fantastic, good life lesson in there, too. [00:42:28] Speaker A: Okay, let's talk about hands. We're probably just about running out of time. Yeah. [00:42:33] Speaker B: Yep. [00:42:34] Speaker A: This, I think, is maybe the most important part of this lesson. When you see hand in the Old Testament, sometimes you can translate this word as power. And it's a symbol of the open hand, which is a direction or strength. And in here, you see it very often as the strength of the Lord, the hand of the Lord. And God is using his strength to pull his people out and to deliver them. But you also see, I'm trying to find the best way to say this hand. If we look at just the Exodus account, From Exodus chapter 2 to Exodus chapter 17, the end of where we're at with this lesson today, that the word hand has already shown up almost 70 times. That's a lot. And when you look at the miracles, yes, Moses raises a rod to part the sea, but he also stretches his hand forth. And in some instances, you don't even notice that the word hand is being used because they translated as the works. When they saw the works of God with the plagues, then they. Then they were impressed. It's not works in Hebrew, it's hand. When they saw the hand of God, this. This idea of hand and strength is being played very repetitively. You'll see it repeat itself many, many times throughout these verses, throughout these chapters. It's something significant. And in the Old Testament, when they would pray, they would often pray with outstretched hands. And lifting your hands to God was a sign of praying, was asking for help and pleading for his strength. And the story I want to end this on, as we're talking about hands and how this shows up multiple times, is at the very last chapter here, 17, when the Lord commands Moses that they're going to have to go and fight the people of Amulek, Moses holds his hands up. And as he's holding the hands up, the people of Israel are prevailing or persevering. But of course, if you hold your hands up, your hands get tired and they start to drop, they start to fall. So what does he have to happen? He's got Joshua and Caleb that come on either side as counselors. Yeah. And they support him and hold his hands up so that they can prevail. [00:44:54] Speaker B: They sustain him. [00:44:55] Speaker A: They sustain him. Lifting the hands up is one, a symbol of God's might, His power. We've talked about this dualistic nature. He is saving them with his hand by establishing him as nation, but smiting the amulets at the same time. But two, the idea of being able to prevail through prayer, as Moses has his arms stretched to heaven. And it is a sign and a symbol of prayer. And as long as Israel is willing to pray, they will persevere, Pray always That you will not faint, that you will come off, conquer. [00:45:35] Speaker B: And it's interesting because I think that it's important to acknowledge that the action of prayer is also a symbol of a lot of things too. God knows what we need. God knows the thoughts of our heart. God knows the things that we're thankful for. He knows those things. So then it begs the question, okay, well then why is praying important? Right? If God already knows those things, why is the process of that important? And is it the symbolisms in the idea of humility? Right. The pride, Pride being the thing that drives, I mean, almost all of the downfall of civilizations, right? And what is the opposite of that humility? What more of a humble act could you perform before God other than, yes, I know that you already know all of these things, but let me kneel before you, bow before you, plead before you. You know what I mean? And verbally thank you for these things or within your heart. I don't know. It's like, I think that that's, [00:46:43] Speaker A: I [00:46:44] Speaker B: think you're making your point, but I've always, I think, kind of tried to maybe take that a step further and go, but why, like, why is prayer important if God already knows those things? And I think that that's it though, right? That it's, that it's also a symbol, it's also a process of humbling yourself. And I say that, I think specifically I had this conversation with my friend Trey some time ago where, you know, I kind of like, yeah, I don't even ask for anything in prayers because I feel unworthy to ask for anything in prayers. I'm always like, my prayers are. My life is so awesome. And I know that it's, I don't deserve it, but please let it continue because it's awesome, right? And my friend Trey scold me, he's like, nah, he's like, you're commanded to ask for things when you pray too. You're commanded to. You're expected. God, God, that's a, that's a sign to God that you rely on him. That is a, you know, like that's, [00:47:40] Speaker C: that's part of praying too. [00:47:43] Speaker B: And it's kind of reshaped the way that I've understood or even approached praying. But I don't know, am I totally off on this? [00:47:51] Speaker A: No. That's an interesting thought. And I was thinking as you were saying that, and maybe this is a little different, but the. You look at how people do obeisance, right? When they kneel down and they're, they're laying their hands down this idea that they're surrendering. And even now, today, if somebody sticks a gun at you, I mean, what's the idea? [00:48:10] Speaker B: First thing you do is you put your hands up. [00:48:11] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, hands up. And this idea that I surrender, when you talk about humility, that I am willing to submit to your will, that I admit that you're more powerful or that I'm not going to win in this confrontation. This idea of surrendering to God in prayer, even though hand is a symbol of strength, maybe you're admitting a strength greater than yours. And by admitting that there's a strength greater than yours, going back to what you're saying, by asking him for help, you're admitting that you can't do it yourself. [00:48:42] Speaker B: Exactly right. [00:48:44] Speaker A: You don't have that means that capability. Or even if you do, you think you do, but you need his help. And that surrender is, I think, a powerful lesson that the Israelites needed to learn. [00:48:58] Speaker B: Fantastic. Great work as always. [00:49:02] Speaker A: Do you have time for me to finish my moab story in one wrap up? [00:49:07] Speaker B: Okay, quick. [00:49:08] Speaker A: Okay. This little three hour jaunt from 5am to 8am turned into too much longer than that. We actually had to get pulled out by search and rescue by 5pm and we did not have breakfast with us, we did not have lunch with us. And we ran out of water by 11:00am and these boys, it was over 100 degrees outside, extremely hot. And our group started to split up with the stronger ones trying to get out to the front and get some water and some help and some aid back, get search and rescue or whatever it was to try to turn this. It turned into a rescue mission pretty quick. As I was pushing forward with a small number of boys, I remembered the story of Moses. And you know, he touches the rock and water comes out of the rock when they were thirsty. And I prayed. Boy, I prayed really hard in my mind and I prayed to God out loud. And I said, God, if Moses could touch a rock and have water come out, we right now are in a very desperate hour of need. Can you please have water come out of a rock for us? And it seemed like a tall order, something crazy or insane to be asking for. But right after I had prayed, as we came running around the bend and up the trail a little ways, there was a stream of water that came right out of a rock across the trail in front of us. And that trail of water, it has been there for a long time. I am sure when we go back to the miracles, I don't know if the miracle was necessarily the water coming out of the rock or just being the right place at the right time. But for me, having said that prayer and having come across that source, being able to pull out a water purifier, I had the pack and get everybody situated with the water. And having that miracle happen the way it did, a powerful lesson to me. And going back to the Israelites, maybe their fault isn't so much that they were in a desperate situation and they were crying to God, but that they were crying without trying to figure out what they needed to ask for. Like you, Nate, like you say, the idea that you do ask God for help, that you do, like Nephi, try to find a solution and say, this is what I need. Or the brother of Jared that here are some stones, will you touch these? Or like we just barely read with Jacob looking at his son saying, why are you staring at each other when there's food in Egypt? Maybe we need to be looking at our situation. And yes, maybe it's desperate. Maybe we're going through some rough times. Maybe we're learning obedience ourselves and ask ourselves, what does the Lord want me to do about this? And then take that answer to the Lord and ask him, what am I supposed to learn about this situation? How can I be better because of it? How can you consecrate my efforts? Then what do I do to show the Lord that you're not just giving up and having him do it? Because he is never about just security and safety and comfort. If we remember right, his plan from the very beginning was a plan of liberty and of freedom and us being self sustaining and helping us to be able to stand on our own two feet. [00:52:25] Speaker B: Amen, brother. Couldn't agree with you more. And I think that that is a fantastic way to wrap up this episode. Thank you. Thank you for that perspective and for that thought and for your preparation. Thank you. Nate, what are we talking about next week? [00:52:36] Speaker A: Next week we are actually talking about Easter. Sorry I threw that on you a week earlier. [00:52:40] Speaker B: No, it's fine. So we got Easter next week and then we'll be back at the regular schedule podcast. [00:52:45] Speaker A: Yes, sir. [00:52:46] Speaker B: Okay. Well, until next week. [00:52:47] Speaker A: See ya.