Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Welcome to the what?
[00:00:18] Speaker B: Welcome to the what?
[00:00:19] Speaker A: Welcome to the Weekly Dive.
[00:00:21] Speaker B: What?
[00:00:21] Speaker A: A weekly Deep Dive podcast on the Add On Education Network. The podcast where we explore the weekly Come Follow me discussion and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here with my friend and this show's producer, Nate Pifer.
[00:00:34] Speaker B: What's up?
[00:00:35] Speaker A: Hey. Yeah. Before we dive too much into this episode, we've kind of been looking around at our audience and just kind of blown away at how this thing's taken off. I mean, we're. We're coming up on two months here on March 10th that we've been publishing episodes of the show.
And we noticed that there are these cities, like in Nigeria, in India, that just really started listening to the show and building these audiences, these small groups. And I was a little confused at what was going on out there. Where are we attracting these people? How are they finding us? Where are they coming from? And so as I was typing some of these cities in and then trying to make the connection, I'd put LDS in the Google search next to the name of the city. Sure enough, there are cities where we've announced temples are going to be built, and there are little strongholds of faith that, you know, it's. To me, it's fascinating to see the thirst or the interest and people out there that are just searching because I don't think our podcast is necessarily the easiest to find right now. It's a new show, but so thirsty or so wanting to know more or learn more that they're finding and discovering these obscure sources and tuning in. So it's very cool.
[00:01:44] Speaker B: It's very cool.
And for those of you listening in those cities, thank you. That's awesome. And like Jason said, we're really blown away with kind of like the legs that this podcast has already started getting. And when we see cool, unique places around the world pop up and not just like the cities that our parents live in, you know, whatever. It's. It's nice that more than just. I mean, I don't even know. Maybe my parents don't even listen to this. Who knows? I probably should give them the heads up. But it's. It's cool. It's cool when you see places like Nepal, you know, like a little branch in Nepal has started listening. And like you said, some. Some cities in various countries in the Middle east and things like that, it's just like, oh, that' that's amazing. And thank you for listening.
For those of you, for all of you, thank you for Listening, but especially those that are kind of having to probably try to find. It's probably harder for them to find it than it would be for people here in our wards or whatever kind of locally.
[00:02:41] Speaker A: Yeah. And out there in Nepal, I believe it was Kathmandu. We picked up a lot of followers out there. And I'm sorry if I'm saying this wrong. I really want to avoid saying too many cities where I'm not sure how to pronounce it and feel free to correct me on that. But as I looked it up, I found a little Facebook page of the war branch out there, and it saw little comments on the Facebook of talking about things and all out there in English. I didn't realize.
I didn't realize these communities existed or were there. And I just appreciate seeing you guys out there listening.
[00:03:13] Speaker B: It's very cool. And again, I just want to really quick also just remind everybody we have our email address set up hi. @weeklydeepdive.com for any questions or comments or anything or even if you just want to say hi from some remote place around the world you happen to be listening to this, we always appreciate any feedback. So thank you.
[00:03:38] Speaker A: Yeah, we'd love to hear your stories.
All right, starting off, we're in Doctrine and covenants, sections 23, 26, and 23 is kind of a smaller section. They're talking about a few individuals and how they're not under condemnation. And as I was reading this, verse one, behold, I speak unto you, Oliver, a few words. Behold, thou art blessed and thou art under no condemnation, but beware of pride, lest thou should enter into temptation. And condemnation was kind of an interesting word for me, and it seems like an Old Testament word like condemnation, to be damned or condemned.
And I tried to find some examples of this in the Scriptures, and I came up blank in the Old Testament. This word does not show up at all in the Old Testament. Yeah, it's a New Testament word, interesting enough. And usually we're associating the New Testament with love and kindness, but condemnation here and trying to understand cond. Meaning with damned, to be damned, with damned or condemnation. It's a legal term, and it means to be found at fault. So if you're condemned, you're condemned to die, you're condemned of six months hard labor, whatever you're condemned to. It's typically speaking in legal terms. And they're saying here that you have no condemnation or there's nothing that you have been judged of and found guilty of, if you will. And these legal terms, there is some connection in The Old Testament, because the word Satan is the Hebrew word for prosecuting attorney. And we refer to this guy as our adversary. And you've got this idea that the prosecuting attorney is looking for things to condemn you with. And it's the judge who's going to condemn you, and he's looking for fault and trying to accuse you of your faults, trying to get you to commit faults or bring these faults and accusations up against the Lord and saying, he can't be one of yours. He's not following you. These are some of the things that he's doing. And so that the Lord will condemn or judge you. So if you've got a prosecuting attorney and you've got God, then who's on your side? You've got Christ almost acting as your advocate or your defense attorney, who's looking for examples where. Where those actions have been mitigated. And, I don't know, for whatever reason, it was just kind of neat for me to see all of these legal terms and how this all plays out and put perspective on what are we doing to come out innocent in the end in a case where Satan is the accuser. And in these cases, they've got to be feeling pretty good because it's saying you are under no condemnation. There is nothing that would convict you in a court of law of not being worthy of receiving my inheritance. It's got to be a good feeling as he's talking to them. First he's talking to Oliver, says you're under no condemnation. Then he speaks unto Hyrum. He says he's under no condemnation. Thy heart is open, thy tongue is loosed, and thy calling and exhortations to strengthen the church continually. And there's something interesting here that they say in the verses of Hyrum and Joseph Smith Sr. That they don't say in the other verses. And they say, wherefore thy duty is unto the Church for forever, and this because of thy family. So it's not something that you're saying to Oliver. It's not something that you're saying to even Samuel Smith. If we go into verse four, behold, I speak few words unto you, Samuel, for thou art also under no condemnation, and thy calling is exhortation and to strengthen the church. And thou art not as yet called to preach before the world. Amen. So why does Hyrum get it? Why does Joseph Smith Sr. Get it? But why is Samuel not given that same exhortation? He's part of the same family. He's Joseph Smith's younger brother. Why Is the Lord saying, your calling is unto the church and this because of your family forever for those two.
And I feel like the response here is that the patriarchal order or that Joseph Smith Sr. Was a patriarch and the patriarch, being a patriarch was a lifetime calling.
And after Joseph Smith Sr. Was done being the patriarch, well, then Hyrum Smith became the patriarch. And then you had this line of patriarchs that for the most part came from Hyrum Smith's line. And being a patriarch usually involved the firstborn son or the eldest son would become the next patriarch. And it's because of their family that this was going to be a standing position, almost kind of like the Aaronic priesthood or the Levitical priesthood.
So it's kind of neat that they mention that there. This is even before they are called to those callings. But the Lord is demonstrating here his knowledge, his foreknowledge of what's to come and what their position is going to be even before they know what it's going to be.
And interesting enough on this, I wonder, do you guys realize that the church did have a presiding patriarch for a while?
So not just the stake patriarch and not someone who just gives you your patriarchal blessing, but the church itself had a presiding patriarch. And the presiding patriarch was sustained as a prophet, seer and revelator, just like the apostles. And the prophet was.
Yeah, this was the case all the way up until 1979. For the most part, it came from Hyrum Smith's line, but there were a few interruptions in there. There were a few times they didn't have somebody in that line filling that position or temporarily acting in that position. But then it came to a part where the church said, you know, this is not a. This is not a position that we need anymore. They let the patriarch still be patriarch, but they stopped sustaining him as prophet, seer and revelator. And then they didn't call a new patriarch to fill his spot.
So a little interesting history there.
Next, Samuel.
There's not a lot of mention of Samuel in the Doctrine Covenants or anything that we hear of. We've heard of Hyrum Smith, we've heard of Joseph Smith, and we even know a little bit about Alvin, him being the oldest brother that died early. But I don't know that we hear a ton about Samuel. And he was a pretty interesting guy. He was a very faithful guy. And in fact, he was with the saints after they were delivered by a snowstorm that saved them from their enemies. Thick cloud rolled in. They were able to escape. But as they were escaping and running and hiding, they were out of food. They didn't have any provisions. And they looked to Samuel as a leader and said, samuel, prophesy tell us some words of comfort. And he prophesied that their families were well. And he also prophesied that they would be able to find food the very next day and that they would be fed. Just like the Lord provided food for Israel, he would provide food for them. And at this point in time, these guys were living off of tree bark and flower blossoms, right? They were starving. And the very next day, his prophecy came true as they stumbled into a camp of Native Americans that took him in and fed them bread and. And made sure they were doing okay. So he was an interesting guy. And he died within a month of Joseph and Hyrum. It's got to be pretty hard for. For his mother, Lucy Smacks. Lucy Mack Smith, who survived all three of her sons, she, you know, to lose Joseph and Hyrum at Carthage jail, and then less than a month later, Samuel Smith to contract the fever and get sick and end up dying as well. But he was an interesting guy. And the Lord does speak that he's under no condemnation, and he's called to exhort and strengthen the church. He was at this point, not yet called to preach before the world, but he does preach later on.
Then we have a little bit of words to Joseph Smith Sr. And as we said, giving him this duty as to the exhortation and to strengthen the church, and also that that is his duty from henceforth and forever.
Joseph Knight. Now, this is something I do find a little bit interesting. He says, by these words, let's see. Behold, I manifest unto you, Joseph Knight, by these words that you must take up your cross.
And that's something we hear in the New Testament all the time. Take up your cross and come follow me. And it.
What does it mean to take up your cross? And we don't have a lot of elaboration. We don't have Jesus saying, here, let me explain to you what it means by take up your cross and come follow me. He just says, take up your cross, and kind of leaves it to our imagination. But in this Revelation, we do get a peek when he says, by these words that you must take up your cross in the which or in this way, you must pray vocally before the world as well as in secret.
[00:12:16] Speaker B: Hmm.
[00:12:17] Speaker A: And I think that's something that's interesting. We. We pray very well in our minds and. And quietly. We pray all the time. I think. But I think it does give us a little bit of embarrassment or a little bit of hesitancy to pray publicly.
And you think about what it means to pick up your cross and Christ, as he's picking up his cross, is walking through crowded streets and being shamed publicly.
So do we feel shame when we're praying in public? I don't think we feel a lot of shame when we're praying in public in, like a sacrament meeting, if someone asks us to pray or if we're praying at a meeting where we've been asked to pray, but where I think we might feel a little bit of shame, like the world's looking at us and judging us, is if we're sitting down at a restaurant about ready to eat dinner and we stop and pray publicly. Is that what he's talking about here? I don't know, Nate. I'd be.
[00:13:10] Speaker B: I think that. That I feel like that that's maybe.
Maybe part of it, but might feel a kind of. Very kind of on the nose and literal for what I feel like it's trying to say in this, which is like you said, like, when Christ was. Was carrying his cross, like you just said, you know, going through, you know, crowded streets of people spitting at him and yelling him and stuff, and. And him. Him eventually, you know, carrying the thing that he was going to die on, you know, for all of those people spitting on him and such, by the way. You know, it's intense. But I think that. That it's more than just like, oh, he. What he means is to go and pray in public. And it just feels like it means more, hey, don't be afraid to. Don't be afraid of your testimony. Don't be. Don't be afraid to live the type of life that a, you know, somebody that has taken upon themselves the name of Christ would. Would, you know, live or whatever. Right. And so I think it's more than just, hey, I'm going to pray in front of people at a restaurant to show them whatever. And more than anything, it is, don't be afraid to. In this world where you might be nervous that people are going to judge you or shame you for, you know, your faith or your religious beliefs. Like, don't be afraid to.
You know what I mean? Don't be afraid to wear your heart on your sleeve or your testimony on your sleeve, I guess.
[00:14:39] Speaker A: Yeah. And it says here and among your friends and in all places, and I think among your friends. Right.
Sometimes as you're all together, maybe it would be hard to Say, you know what, do you mind if we have a prayer guys before we do this? And you don't want to be.
You don't want to be criticized as being like a Pharisee or somebody who's doing this for show, but how do you balance that? How do you find a comfortable moment? Or maybe comfort's not. Maybe that's the point. It's not comfortable to carry your cross in front of a crowd of people.
And how do you do it in a way in a setting that's going to be appropriate and it's going to convey the response that it wants to convey, and yet still finding a way to bury your cross.
[00:15:26] Speaker B: Sure, I guess that's. And to that point, I just. I agree with you, but I also just feel like it's probably using. Using, you know, your prayer or praying is kind of like a. As like a symbolism of a much bigger thing. Right? And. And I get. I guess I just. I don't know, Like, I don't know if I'm necessarily going to start openly praying in a room full of. Of crowded people at a restaurant only because, like, I also don't want to be. Like you said, it's hard finding that balance of, like, okay, cool, is this. Is this using something that should be sacred and, and turning it into, hey, look at me. Look how righteous I am at the table with my family. You know what I mean? Like, and part of it is too, is like, obviously you probably wouldn't be, like, yelling your prayer across the restaurant, but. But we shouldn't be doing this. I guess if at any point it's. It's losing the purpose of it and the sincereness of it, that's probably where. Whatever.
I don't know. I don't know the right answer to this. I guess I'm just saying it's like, I look at this and I see, you know, pray, and I'm like, okay, that's probably part of what the bigger thing is, which is just like, don't be afraid to. You know what I mean? Don't be afraid to talk about your beliefs. Don't be afraid to sing about your beliefs, which is also a prayer. Don't be afraid to. You know what I mean? There's just so many things that I feel like are. I don't know. I just feel like it's bigger than.
[00:16:59] Speaker A: Just, hey, pray in restaurants and maybe some settings. Just because he says pray in public doesn't mean he's saying pray all the time in public before you eat or all the time Right. Maybe there's settings where you're not afraid to say a prayer because you're in a tough situation. You're stuck in an elevator with a bunch of people and you're worried that you're going to be getting out and saying, do you mind if I say a prayer or something? You're praying in public or. And I'm always intrigued by the instances where you have somebody score a touchdown in the end zone and then take a quiet moment or take a knee or pray. You got your Tim Tebow or whatnot. And there's a balance there. Right? Is the purpose for praying there to really show gratitude to the Lord or to really try to turn people to the Lord, or is it to say, look at me, I'm an amazing.
A lot of it does have to do with the attitude that you're bringing into it. And I can't help but think, what if Christ carrying his cross, doing this in public when he gets to the hill, spikes the cross and celebratory.
[00:17:53] Speaker B: See, and it's funny because, again, like. And, and. And here's. I guess this is the great point. It's funny because, like, I see the dudes that take a knee and, and. And do that in the end zone. And like you said, like, I never think to myself, like, oh, they're doing this to prove something. And so that's what's funny, is like, you and I see. Which is the point, right, is that you and I see both of those things very differently. Or maybe we don't. I don't know. But, like, I agree that, that anything, anytime you're doing it to, like, pump yourself up. You know what I mean? I think you've kind of lost the purpose of it. And I also have no problem with an athlete, especially playing football, who is on the brink of being paralyzed at any given moment. You know what I mean? Taking a moment to be. To give thanks.
[00:18:38] Speaker A: I love to see it.
[00:18:39] Speaker B: And the thing is, but it's so funny because, like, in the music world, when I'm watching these music awards and somebody goes up there and thanks God for, like, some heinous tune that they just wrote, I'm like, well, okay. Like, I don't know. I don't know if Jesus is going like, hey, can you. Can you leave me out of this one? You know what I mean? So, I don't know. But whatever. I guess maybe the bigger point is that we need to do what we feel is appropriate to, you know, let our proverbial light so shine. And. And I Guess this is probably a good chance to always remind myself I probably shouldn't be too quick to judge anybody how they choose to do that, I guess.
[00:19:19] Speaker A: Absolutely. And it comes down to don't be afraid or embarrassed of the gospel that we have, or to show that gospel, but do it appropriately and make sure the reason why you're doing it isn't necessarily calling attention to yourself. In fact, we're going to talk about this in next week's episode. When we're talking about the sacrament. It says you can use any kind of bread or water or whatever the case may be, as long as you're doing it with an eye single to God. And I think that's the same point here.
You can do it in all places, it's okay. In fact, don't be ashamed of it, don't be afraid of it. Feel free to acknowledge God. But when we do acknowledge God, I think we need to do it in the sense that we are single to his glory, that we're doing it for us. We're doing it because we love him and we're trying to praise him or honestly give thanks or appreciation to him and not to try to ingrandize ourselves, but because we do have that focus on Him.
[00:20:18] Speaker B: I'm with you, sweet.
[00:20:19] Speaker A: Next we're going to talk about a little bit of guidance on miracles. In section 24. When they're talking about going out and serving missions and they talk about the miracles that they're going to be seeing and the miracles that they're going to be doing, the Lord gives them a few little bit of counsels he says in verse 13 require not miracles.
And just pausing right there. I think we've always, we've heard the stories of like the missionaries that ran out of gas and then they prayed that the Lord would convert water into gasoline and pour it into the gas.
[00:20:52] Speaker B: It's totally just a myth, by the way. Nobody did that.
[00:20:54] Speaker A: Right, right, right. The urban legends that go circling around. But the point of it is, don't be putting yourself in a situation that you require miracles or requiring that God do things for certain reasons. He's giving us a little bit of counsel here. Right. Require not miracles except I command you, I shall command you. And then he gives a few exceptions to that, except casting out devils, healing the sick and against poisonous serpents, against deadly poisons, so you can cast out devils, heal the sick and heal people. Against poisonous serpents and against deadly poisons.
[00:21:28] Speaker B: What about poisonous spiders?
[00:21:31] Speaker A: Yep, I think that qualifies.
[00:21:32] Speaker B: All right, keep going.
I just want to make sure that that's in there.
[00:21:36] Speaker A: He says, those you don't have to wait for him to command you to do, right? So when he's talking about the miracles that you don't require, except I shall command you, this, I think, is talking about, like, moving mountains or doing things with faith. Like, I don't know, have you ever thought, like, as a kid, maybe because the priesthood or faith, like, if the Lord says you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you can move a mountain. You're like, man, do I have Jedi powers? Can I fly?
Could I do some great miracle? Could I look at that mountain and have it move and try to test your faith? And I think these are the kind of miracles that God's saying, those miracles don't happen unless I tell you.
[00:22:18] Speaker B: And what is usually the common theme with all of those mighty miracles is that they're to serve God's purpose and give glory to him and help his work move along. You know what I mean? It's. It's to your point. And I'm just emphasizing the. The thing with all of those miracles is that they're not there to do it, to prove to us individually, like, oh, cool. I. Yeah, I guess. I guess it almost be real because I just moved that mountain. Like, things like that, you know, Moses, part of the Red Sea. Why?
[00:22:44] Speaker A: Because God told him.
[00:22:45] Speaker B: That's. Exactly. And it was to save his people from getting killed. You know, I mean, it's like, it's always to serve the great, the greater purpose.
And I don't think missionaries getting stranded in a car without gas is. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't know. I mean, I. I know that it's just an urban legend, but again, like, all of those things, it kind of comes back to. Once again, is this to serve your. You know the story of Moses, you know, whacking the rock or whatever, to get the water come out, right?
[00:23:12] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:23:12] Speaker B: It's like. Like, one, was he commanded to do that? I don't know. It doesn't sound like it. And two, for what purpose was it to serve?
[00:23:20] Speaker A: And going back to intentions, even as we're talking about prayer, right?
If Moses ends up at the borders of the Red Sea because God told him to go that direction is very different than if Moses says, hey, I want to see a miracle. Today, we're going this way. We're going to see what God does to get us out of this situation.
So those are those miracles, but there's another type of miracles, and these are the miracles where if you look at what these have in common, casting out devils, healing the sick, poisonous serpents or deadly poisons, they are all to the benefit of somebody who is afflicted.
[00:23:55] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:23:56] Speaker A: And in those cases, God is not going to sit there and say, well, let me say, yes, you should. No, let me command you to do that. Wait for me to tell. No, he is saying, you don't need to wait for my permission to be doing these miracles. But he does say in verse 14, and these things ye shall not do. So wait a second, I thought he said you could do these without waiting for him to command you. He says, these things you shall not do except it be required of you by them who desire it that the scriptures might be fulfilled.
So it is based a lot of times on the faith of the person, and the person believing that God can do it and believing that you are authorized to perform that action to the point where they desire that of you. You need a little bit of faith for the miracle to take place.
And this could take us to a whole discussion on why miracles happen or what miracles and what happens when miracles work.
[00:24:48] Speaker B: You know what I mean? Like what is even the boundaries of a miracle versus you know.
[00:24:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. But to keep it clean for now, I'm just saying I think the Lord is providing here some general instructions. You have different types of miracles. Some miracles you shouldn't be performing unless the Lord is commanding you to do it. Other miracles you should freely be performing, but it should be at the request of the person. You shouldn't be forcing these on people. It should be based the other way around. And a lot of these, again, going back to intention.
Are we doing this to serve ourselves? Are we doing this to have people think that we're great because we can do this? Or are we doing this because we care about the person? We want to heal them, we want to help them, and we want to turn them to God and realize that this is where the source of the power of the miracle comes from.
Good counsel on miracles. Moving to the dusting off of the feet.
[00:25:37] Speaker B: Here we go. Oh, boy, I need to make that bumper. I need to make a little bumper so that every time we come to one of these places, I just can push a button and this thing goes wah, wah, wah, wah, or something like that.
[00:25:49] Speaker A: Well, it's an interesting one because verse 15, in whatsoever place you shall enter and they receive you not in my name you shall leave a cursing instead of a blessing. That seems a little harsh. By casting off the dust of your feet, against them is a testimony and cleansing your feet by the wayside. So you've got two different things here. Not just the casting of the dust of your feet, but the cleansing of the feet. And I think both of these things kind of tie in together.
We talked about this in a previous episode when we talked about the rod of God being the word of God to bless us. But then he says, I'm going to smite you with my rod being like the beating stick. And this idea of this dichotomy, you've got the apostles, Christ who's washing the feet of the disciples, and then you've got somebody as a form of cursing, who's washing their feet or dusting the feet off as a sign that they should be cursed. So it does present another interesting dichotomy. And I wanted to look kind of like the history of this. Where does it come from? And in the New Testament, a lot of the times, the Jews, when they would go and visit Gentile cities or be in a Gentile area, this idea that they were the Lord's people and there's this separation. And according to the Jews, they were very orderly. There was a lot of separation. And the example is looking at the temple. You have a court of the Gentiles, you have a court of the women, you have a court for people that can go on to. You have a court that is only for the priests. Then as you get closer and closer, it gets more and more restrictive about who can come in or who cannot come in. Then you get to the Holy of Holies, and only the high priest can go in there once a year on the Day of Atonement. Right. So you have got this separation.
And they would discuss, like, well, what about this? What part of the door is holy? And how does that separate.
It is kind of interesting how this all worked.
[00:27:41] Speaker B: Which part is just the inside?
[00:27:44] Speaker A: Well, you would have to read. I mean, they've got a whole. In fact, Donald Berry wrote, I believe his dissertation was on this, the different degrees of holiness and how the Jews would all separate it in the temple, how everything associated with whether this was clean or not clean. And you had your cleansing rights, what you needed to do if you weren't. So this idea of them dusting off their feet was. This was Gentile dirt.
And so going back into Israel and Holy Land, they would be dusting themselves off so that they would have that separation, so that they wouldn't be bringing the Gentile back in with themselves. So this idea of shaking off what belonged to them and Keeping what belonged to you and separating it out was. Was kind of how it was viewed as in the New Testament.
[00:28:28] Speaker B: That's awesome. That's great insight on that.
[00:28:29] Speaker A: But if you take it back to the Old Testament, it's a little bit different.
And this is where I like to go with this, because the Lord says in the New Testament, he says, dust off your feet, and it shall be worse for that city than it shall be for Sodom and Gomorrah. Right? That's the city that they keep referencing, the cities from Sodom and Gomorrah in the Old Testament. And those cities weren't even the names of those cities back then. Sodom and Gomorrah means like a heap, pile and waste. Like, that's what they called them after they were destroyed. They never used the names of the cities from before they were destroyed. But the example of Sodom and Gomorrah we go back to right before that city was destroyed. Abraham is sitting out in the desert and strangers come to go visit him. And as they come to visit him, how does Abraham receive his guests? He tells them to go fetch water and a basin, and then he washes their feet. And these are people he didn't even know these were strangers. And you contrast what Abraham does right outside of the city and washing the feet of these guests. And then they say, we're going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. And Abraham says, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Would you destroy the city if I find. What if there's 100 righteous people in here? Whatever number, he says. And he keeps playing this game to where he gets down. No per adventure. Don't be angry at me, O Lord, but peradventure, we find one righteous person, will you save the city? Right? And so the angel says, you know, we will save the city for one man's sake, or whatever the case, they go into the city and then contrast how they received their guests in Sodom and Gomorrah versus how Abraham received his guests. They are the same people, the same messengers. Abraham receives them by washing their feet, they receive them by trying to abuse them.
And in Ezekiel 16, the Lord talks about the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah. A lot of times we associate this with sexual sin. But in Ezekiel, they say the sins were they didn't take care of the fatherless, they didn't take care of the stranger, they treated the strangers poorly. And that's what you see happen here. And yeah, they did have the family of Lot, but they pull them out now there's no righteous people left in the city. The city gets destroyed. And we have that story. And I want to use that story because that's what the Lord's referencing. It will be worse for the city than it would be for Sodom and Gomorrah if you're dusting or washing your feet off. So I look at this idea of washing your feet, and it's, you're going into this house looking for hospitality, and they don't give you any. They don't wash your feet to where you're left, to where you have to wash your feet yourself. Kind of a sign of, they didn't treat me well. I. I had to take care of myself and this idea of rejecting the city. But part of me thinks, well, first off, in the early days of the church, I think this cursing was warranted. You look at how the Saints were persecuted. You look at how people would come in to destroy the dams that they had built to be able to baptize people, to try to frustrate the work. You look at the way property was stolen. You look at the way women were treated. Forcing women and children to walk through the snow barefoot, bleeding their feet bleeding. You want to talk about washing feet or taking care of someone's feet? What are you doing when you force a family of women and children to cross the snow barefoot at night?
This was the hospitality that they were receiving from the people that were supposed to be their friends. And they were viewed as strangers among the society, Right?
They were alienated, and they were rejected by their local government, they were rejected by the state government, they were rejected by the federal government. And I think the Lord did, in turn, curse America for what happened at that time. You look at Abraham's family lot and everyone being brought out of Sodom and Gomorrah and then the city being destroyed. I look at that as. Just as soon as the Saints are excavated from the United States and pulled into Utah and the last migrants have left, the Civil War breaks out. And this nasty, huge war destroys a nation and changes it fundamentally to now the federal government has power to step in to free the slaves, to stop the mob violence, the lynching, the terrible things, the atrocities that were happening at that time period because they were rejecting strangers, because you would lynch people that you didn't know because of mob violence. And this extends much further than just the LDS faith, right? We look at the way that the blacks were treated with slavery. We look at the way anyone that differed from your opinion or strangers that you didn't like, didn't fit into your mold, or your cast were just rejected. And there was nothing the federal government could do because it was a states rights issue.
When Joseph Smith went to Martin Van Buren, the President, and said, I need your help, Martin Van Buren said, your cause is just, but I can do nothing for you. This is a states rights thing.
And so I think to an extent, a lot of this was warranted, that there was some cursing associated with the way the saints were being treated. But on the other extreme, I think that this has been carried.
You've got stories of a chieftain in Samoa that took missionaries in, and he said, you know, I don't necessarily agree with your message, but I think you guys are incredible. To be serving your God, to be doing what you believe, to be out here on a mission, I think it's commendable. I want to have a feast in your honor. We're going to invite you in and bring everybody out and kind of just celebrate what you're doing, even if I don't agree with your message. And the missionaries turned him down and said, you know what? You're rejecting our message. And they washed their feet right in front of the guy. And he was so offended, he said, don't come back.
I think in these cases, we have some excesses going in the wrong direction. I think what the Lord gave it in the original purpose has been taken out of context.
And I want to reference that with Abraham versus these missionaries. When you look at Abraham and says peradventure, I find one righteous person. Here was a guy that was willing to wash the feet of a stranger, and he was so hesitant to wash his own feet of the sins of a city that sat right next to him that he would say, what can I do to save that city?
Look at, in contrast, Jonah.
Jonah gets swallowed by the well because he doesn't want to go to Nineveh, right? He's kind of got issues with the place in the first place. But when he goes, the guy becomes the greatest missionary of all the Old Testament. He converts the king of Nineveh to the point where the king commands not just all the people to fast. So Jonah is saying, if you don't repent, you will be destroyed. Jonah goes up into the mountain, finds a nice little shade tree and sticks around because he can't wait to see the fireworks. He wants to see Sodom and Gomorrah. He wants to see this destruction happen. And the king says, we are doomed.
What if we can change the Lord's mind about us? What if we were to repent. And he doesn't just order all of the people fast as a king, but he orders that all of the animals be put in sackcloth as well.
And this guy just saved a whole city. Right? You would think that he would be rejoicing, like, hey, this is great missionary work. But he is so upset that the Lord doesn't destroy this people. He says, what gives?
He's upset about it. And I think that's like the early missionaries that were a little over anxious to dust their feet. Lord, why aren't you punishing these people? Why aren't you destroying them? Why isn't this city turning like Sodom and Gomorrah? And so the Lord smites his little shade tree and kills it. And Jonah is complaining, oh, now you've killed my shade tree.
And the Lord says, why do you care more about a tree than you do an entire city?
[00:36:41] Speaker B: That's right. It's funny because I don't think that's just like ancient missionaries, you know what I mean? Like, unfortunately, I think sometimes, just even now, missionaries in general, at least when I was doing the thing, you know, there are times where it's just like, yeah, okay, these people were jerks to us, and that's not a problem. And it sucks, but like, you know, cool, move on, you know, but it is funny because even, even you would still kind of hope, mostly jokingly, but be like, oh, man, we should. We should just dust our feet and move out. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, clearly, clearly you, you are missing the point of us being out here, and that's to love people, you know, first and foremost and, and, and help them know that we love them. And if they're not ready for that, then that's. That's life, you know, like, that doesn't. And even then, it doesn't mean they're bad people, even. Right. Of course it doesn't mean that. Right? So it is funny. It's funny you say that. It's like, yeah, the ancient, like the example you gave. But I'm like, I don't know if it's, you know, changed that much, unfortunately.
[00:37:45] Speaker A: Well, I think the dusting of the feet is more of a challenge for the missionary than it is for the city. Like, what do you learn about somebody if you're telling them, hey, it's almost like the story, you know, the story of, like, if you press the red button, somebody somewhere else is going to die, but you'll. Right. Like, who would feel justified hitting that button if The Lord's telling you it's going to be worse for these people than it was for Sodom. And Gomorrah. And Sodom and Gomorrah. They got wiped out. Fire and brimstone. Why would you ever wash your feet?
And you look at Abinadi who got rejected and cast out, and what does he do? He goes back in in disguise. Or you get Alma and Almilech.
And what happens if Abinadi doesn't go in? Think again. Peradventure. I find one righteous man because of Abinadi coming back and testifying. You get Alma, the one righteous man that all of a sudden a whole community is born, a whole seed is planted. Do you love the people enough to put up with some of this stuff and not desire for their destruction? So when the Lord is giving you a destruction button, I think it proves more about the heart and the preparation of the missionary and what his focus is. Is he there because he loves the people or is he there because he wants to damn the people, wants to condemn them?
[00:39:02] Speaker B: Well, you look at Moses and all the time I'm always just like, man, I don't know how Moses had any patience whatsoever with the whiny, complaining children of Israel. That would have. I would have just been like, you know what, nevermind. But it's funny because like we read in the Old Testament, the Lord's like, okay, Moses, it's time. I'm done with these dudes. Like, I can't even stand him anymore. And Moses is like, hold on, he does.
[00:39:24] Speaker A: He does.
[00:39:25] Speaker B: I mean like Moses. Moses is like, hold on a minute. I know, trust me. They bug me too.
[00:39:31] Speaker A: And Moses tries to intercede for him. And ultimately is that not what we're trying to do, is be like Christ. And what did Christ do when he says, I will suffer their sins, I will pay their. Because I believe that they will change. I believe I want to love them enough to help them change.
And who do we. That's why I say it's more a test for the missionary than anything.
Are we going to be putting ourselves on the line because we love these people that much, or are we just so willing to see them done and destroyed that that's the end of it?
[00:40:03] Speaker B: Well, yeah, and obviously that's just a misunderstanding of one's purpose. I mean, is what you're saying. And I totally agree.
[00:40:10] Speaker A: Yeah, let's. We're going to run out of time if I keep this going. Let's talk about Emma Smith.
[00:40:17] Speaker B: Okay?
[00:40:19] Speaker A: She's called as an elect lady it's very interesting. The poor woman, she just got baptized by Oliver Cowdery, and she has to hold off being sustained or being confirmed and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost because Joseph Smith got arrested.
He got arrested for, of all things, treasure hunting and purporting to know where treasure was. He ends up being acquitted and the case is dismissed and he's able to return. But as he returns and he writes revelation to her about, the Lord speaks to her. And what really stands out to me in verse 7, Thou shalt be ordained under his hand. Talking about Joseph Smith, and it's talking about Emma's. Shall be ordained under Joseph Smith's hand to expound the Scriptures and to exhort the church according as it shall be given thee by my spirit.
And you don't see a lot of that in these times. Ministers were always male. And here you have a female being called to expound the Scriptures and to exhort the church. It's kind of revolutionary. It's a big deal. Emma Smith was very well educated.
She was more educated than any of her siblings. She was more educated than Joseph Smith. She was called to be his scribe. Very bright, very intelligent. And the Lord is giving her responsibility to exhort and expound in the church. And not just that, but he's also going to go on to call her to put the hymn book together, right? The first hymnal. And she does. She puts not just one, but she puts three hymnals together.
The first hymnal that she puts together is about 90 hymns. And then later on, she puts a more complete hymnal together, 304 hymns in the first hymnal. She doesn't have any music. It's just. Just words. The saints can come together and sing. And I know, Nate, you're kind of more of an expert in this field than I am. What is so significant about music in the church? Why is the Lord making a big deal of this? And why is this such an important call for Emma?
[00:42:27] Speaker B: I don't know if I can speak to why this is such an important call for Emma, but I will say that we talk a lot about harmony in. In a lot of the scriptures, you see things. You see things.
Something in harmony with something else. And that's always kind of an interesting choice of words, Right? Because a lot of times when we see those things, you don't see it necessarily in. In context or relationship to music. Right. Are our lives in harmony with the teachings of the church or whatever? You know what I mean? It's like you hear that word used a lot But I think that there's something that's, that's kind of incredibly profound about the way that certain things work together.
And when we're taught that, you know, singing hymns and music is like a prayer, to me, it's like a supercharged prayer because what you're doing is you're harmonizing, you're harmonizing quite literally lyric with music in a way that you and an entire group of people can all be singing in unison and in harmony with each other. And I guess I always kind of wondered why.
For me, it always felt different to hear a prayer in the form of a song or to hear Motab singing something during conference. And that's when I'm like losing it, you know. And I think it's because there's a profound strength in a group of people being able to do something together or being able to worship together.
And it's why, you know, fasting for a purpose and having a lot of people, people all fasting for a purpose, that's a lot of people in harmony and not discord, right? Or you have people that have their name on a prayer roll at the temple. It's like anytime you find something that so many people from all different places, all different experiences can kind of come together and be on the same page. And together there's just power in that man.
[00:44:44] Speaker A: Absolutely.
And the Lord says it in verse 12, right? For my soul delighteth in the song of the heart. There's something moving about music, something powerful that you're right, you feel strong emotions. Even if the music is not necessarily uplifting music, you can still feel strong emotions. It can stoke you up, it can create rage, it can create inspiration.
There's a reason why in war they would have soldiers that would carry drums instead of guns.
Why would you sacrifice a gun in order to just carry a drum and beat on it if, if it didn't inspire and stir up or there's just something about that.
[00:45:30] Speaker B: Well, in different music obviously inspires different emotions and things too, right?
[00:45:33] Speaker A: Uh huh.
[00:45:34] Speaker B: Like you, you wouldn't have that drummer out there going like, da da, da, da da da shoot. You know, you have that guy out there, you know, it's like, because it's like, oh cool. Like that's the, the speed of it and whatever. It's like in the end the, the energy of it's like, it gets you fired up, right? And it's funny because when you listen to something that has these gorgeous harmonies that work together and again, even that I think is kind of like the Thing that you could spend so much time really diving into the science behind that. And that is. And it's funny because I think my mission president, of all people, who I don't think was super musical, said, you know, melody is temporal and harmony is like spiritual. And I'm like, ah, that's kind of an interesting thing to say, but. But there. But the idea is, is that somebody can be singing a completely different set of notes than somebody else, but they work so seamlessly together that that adds energy and depth and power to what it is that they're doing, even if it's different notes that they're singing, right? And then it's like, if you apply this to the people that come to church on Sunday, right. If you. I'm just saying it's like if you apply it, there's so many things that you can apply that to the idea that you don't have to be doing things exactly the same way to have them work in harmony together. Right? And, and, and what we need to be most in harmony with is what the spirit.
[00:47:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:47:19] Speaker B: And so, and so again, it's like, I. I don't know, man. I just feel like there's such a profound lesson in that. Juxtapose that against discord, right? Or things that don't work together and what. What physically does that invoke in you? Right? It's like that it evokes anxiety and it invokes tension and darkness and things. Right? And again, like, there is a place for that in this world, you know, And I get it, but with God and when he talks about harmony, it's because when things work well together, scientifically, your brain does different things, right? Yes. And you feel physically different. And that is, again, like, there's just something so powerful when you see Motab with however many people they have singing, all not singing exactly the same pitch, not all singing the same notes even, right?
But singing the same words and having that all be the thing that. That builds into this thing where again, just as. For me, at least as a listener, I'm just like, cool. I might get more out of that every single conference than I do any of the talks. And I get a lot out of the talks too. But I guess I'm just saying, like, those are. Those are the moments where I'm just like, okay, we're all on the same page here.
[00:48:40] Speaker A: And when it swells and you feel it just kind of swell in yourself and you feel. I don't know, it's. You're right. It's Incredible. And I think about art, they say a picture is worth a thousand words. And I think music's the same thing. There's so much that can be communicated with a feeling that words don't quite describe or fall short of being able to actually capture it all. Some of the meaning and the symbolism and everything that can be conveyed with a little bit of art is worth more than what you can convey with a bunch of lectures or discussions on the same subject.
All right, last, we have a little bit of a section that talks about by common consent.
Well, we're not going to dive into this as much as what maybe we would hope. But even in Exodus, chapters one through eight, as the Lord is.
Let's just say this when we're talking about common consent in the church, it's not to say that we're a democracy and that we're voting in a prophet to do this and this to do that and that everybody gets a say in how this all works. Brigham Young described it saying that the prophet is called of God and so he's accountable to God. But as members of the church, they're also subject to the laws of the church. And a lot of the things, they're accountable to God for the decisions that they're making, but they're also part of this church and they're accountable to the laws of the church that are created in the order of the church. And they do bring things up for sustaining vote. And we say here it's not by unanimous consent, but by common consent. And it's okay if you have somebody that doesn't agree or someone that doesn't quite feel the same way. But by common consent, we're trying to do this, that we all have a part and a role to play. And maybe something that's interesting is to say that the plan to come here and the plan of salvation and God's plan, God didn't just say, hey guys, you're going to go do this now. He said, this is a plan that I have for you to progress. How would you like to go about doing this? And by common consent, 2/3 majority, this whole plan was created and Christ atoned and died for our sins by common consent. And the whole purpose was to not take agency away. And by common consent means that there's going to be some things in the church that maybe we don't quite agree with or we don't quite understand, or things that don't quite fit with how we see things, but we're doing things not by God dictating Every little thing that we do, but by common consent as we grow, as we learn, and as we do the best we can. And ultimately the prophet is accountable to God because he is called of God. But we are also responsible to sustain the Lord's prophet because whether it is by his voice or God's voice, it is the same. And we will be accountable to God for how we followed that prophet and how we did what God wanted us to do as we try to navigate these waters by common consent.
[00:51:46] Speaker B: I like it. I like that it's not by unanimous consent.
[00:51:50] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:51:50] Speaker B: Or democratic consent.
I mean, your point is incredibly well taken and I think it's good to be reminded of that. It's not. Again, it's not the Church's responsibility to try to meet the needs of every single person inside.
But at the same time, yeah, there are things that may take time for me to be able to understand that I don't right now, but like you said, I understand that it's not up to me to dictate the rules of the Church and that if I'm having questions or issues with something that it's a good opportunity for me to try to figure that out.
[00:52:34] Speaker A: Yes. And even looking, I guess where I was going with Moses in Exodus is even though he received the commandments from the finger of God, even though God told him everything, he brought it back to the people for the voice of the people to accept those things. And you look at King Benjamin too, right? He received these commandments from God. He's going to restructure the entire government of how these Nephites were governed. But he brings it to the people and gets their common consent as he moves forward with this plan.
[00:53:04] Speaker B: It's an interesting thing because. Where's the line? Because like Heavenly Father in the pre earth life, right, says here's the plan and I'm presenting it to you to, to you know, say yes or no. Right. But I guess that it's.
One third said no. But at the end of the day like the plan wasn't going to change if 2/3 said no. Right?
[00:53:31] Speaker A: That's a good question.
[00:53:32] Speaker B: I guess, I guess I'm just saying like, because to me it's like this is. And this is where. This is where again like I think that it's healthy to have this, it's healthy to have this conversation because.
Because what if Heavenly Father wasn't presenting the plan to say, well, and then you can all vote and tell me that we're not going to do this. So even though Satan did come and present an alternative and wanted the glory and the entire thing and was and was able to persuade, I mean, a massive chunk of people, right, of the hosts of heaven, a third of the hosts of heaven to go with them.
I guess I'm just wondering, what is it? What's the difference between sustaining a plan and having a plan presented to us to sustain versus to vote on to decide whether we're going to do it or not? Because it feels like from the beginning of time, it's not a democracy and it's not something that we are given the chance to vote on necessarily of who's called to be the prophet, but we are given the opportunity to sustain who is called to be the prophet. You know what I mean? I guess where's the distinction between those two?
[00:54:44] Speaker A: That's a great question.
And where is that distinction?
I mean, we're expected to follow God and we're accountable for how we follow Him. And I guess that is what the prophet is saying is he is acting as if he is the Lord. And there is a line, right? When the Lord says, and when my people are full of iniquity, when they reach that tipping point, he doesn't allow their agency to keep going to screw up the agency of everyone else.
[00:55:14] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:55:15] Speaker A: He steps in with the flood, right? He steps in with the Canaanites getting wiped out when Israel comes back.
[00:55:21] Speaker B: So I guess I'm wondering. So I like this. And again, I'm not.
I love thinking through some of these things too because I know that for a lot of people inside or outside of the church, things like this can get people very hung up, right?
And for me, it's like I know for me, I've just changed the way that I personally look at. At even by common consent, or what is my purpose when I. Or what is the purpose of me being given the opportunity to sustain a profit? And it's interesting because it turns less about me giving my vote of approval for something and way more for a chance for me to do some self reflection and a chance for me to personally go. I'm being given the opportunity to reaffirm things that I believe in. Do I believe, do I sustain and believe that this is a called prophet of God? Not am I voting on whether, you know what I mean? Not am I voting on whether he gets to be the prophet or not? And again, and I know that this comes down to sometimes to even stake and ward callings, right? Like we've all probably been in at least one meeting where when they say, you know, all those who sustain this calling, raise your hand. All those who oppose this calling, raise their hand. And there's been times that there's been legitimate reasons that people oppose a calling.
And the process, as far as I understand, is somebody from the stake or from the ward goes and talks to that person and makes sure that they understand why that person is opposing the calling. And if it is something that jeopardizes the calling, they can address that.
But if it's just a personal beef with that person, it's not up to that person to necessarily change the outcome of that calling. It's more a chance, hopefully, maybe for a time, than to talk to that person and be like, is this about you? And not even about the person being called? You know, I mean, it's like there's so many things that I guess I look at this and I go, I just wonder some. And there are things that should. We should absolutely know where our tithing money's going. There are things. You know what I mean? There are certainly things that should be accountable or that we should be at least transparent and understand. And even then, it's like when I pay my tithing money, that is me giving my consent. That's me giving my consent at that point for the church to do with it what it is, right?
It's not me giving the money and saying, okay, now tell me what you're going to do with this before you spend it. When I give that, my wife, I should say, because she's better at it than I am when she writes that check.
That is us. That is us giving our consent to use that money in the way and in the things that the leaders of this church see fit.
I know there's a lot of talking, but I guess to me, the only reason is because I just know that this can be such a confusing thing. Where is that line between sustaining somebody and voting for somebody? And for me, I look at the chances to sustain leaders of the church and to sustain and to. And to sustain their use of our tithing money and resources and things like that. I look at that as. I've just changed the way I've looked at it. It's a chance for me to go, cool. Do I believe this? Do I. Do I have a testimony of these people that are. That are going to be using this? Because if so, I don't. I don't need to be. I don't need to be counseled every time a penny gets spent.
[00:59:05] Speaker A: And I think this is also a way of the Lord showing his people that he doesn't want us to just be blind, leading the blind, or just doing things because everyone else is doing it right. He wants us to be informed. He wants us to understand. He wants us to ultimately come to him and know that this is a relationship with Him. And I think it's important. In Doctrine and covenant, section 18, he makes a distinction between my church, my gospel, and my rock.
A rock is something that is immovable. Christ, revelation.
Those things are not going to change. And we are anchored to him and he wants us to come to Him. The church is the way that helps us to come to him, but it's not his rock.
And sometimes the church might offend people inadvertently or advertently. Christ isn't the bishop. Christ isn't the stake president. Christ isn't the one who's calling or teaching class. It's us that he's allowing to participate. And there's something beautiful about that and giving us the responsibility to do his work. But as we are imperfect, the church is much more fluid than the rock. And we've got to understand that we are anchored to the rock. We are anchored to Christ. And we know that the church is not a perfect body of Christ, but we try. We try our best and we try to sustain each other. And we, you know, maybe we turn a blind eye and not be so critical to other people as they're trying to do their best in the calling. But understand that we do that in hopes that people might not be so critical of us as we try our best. Because we might not say it right when we're. When we're doing things. We might not call the right person or say the right words as we're trying to perform an ordinance or give a blessing or, you know, maybe we don't get it right. But the thing is, there is a difference between the church and the rock. And some things change and some things don't. And at the end of the day, when things do change, we've got to understand what's still solid and what. What we're anchored to despite it all.
[01:01:08] Speaker B: Amen, brother.
[01:01:10] Speaker A: All right, well, thank you guys for listening. I hope you guys enjoyed the show.
[01:01:13] Speaker B: What are we talking about next week?
[01:01:14] Speaker A: Next week we're going to be talking doctrine covenants, sections 20. Let's see, 7 and 28. It's going to talk about sacrament and replacing the wine with water. A little bit there.
[01:01:26] Speaker B: Awesome. Well, until next week.
[01:01:28] Speaker A: See ya.
