Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the Add on Education Network.
The podcast where we explore the weekly Come follow me discussion and try to add a little insight and unique perspective.
I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here back in the studio with my friend and the show's producer, Nate. Sorta sick. Pifer.
[00:00:33] Speaker B: Oh, sorta sick, sorta healthy. Glass half full, half empty. But we are back in the studio on the men's. On the men's. I'm. I'm gonna try just not to cough through in this. It's not Covid cough, congestion cough. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna try not to. I won't be doing a lot of talking today, I'm sure, much to the ship chagrin of everybody listening or much to the delight of everybody listening. It's one way or the other.
[00:00:58] Speaker A: Hey, I'm happy to have you back, Nate.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: Thanks, buddy.
[00:01:01] Speaker A: All right, this week we're going to dive into Doctrine and covenants. Sections 129, 132, 129, 131, 31 are unique from, I think, every other revelation in Doctrine and Covenants in that they're not revelations.
It's kind of a neat little story. See, doctrine and covenants 129 in particular has always kind of bothered me a little bit, but understanding the context of what it is helps me come to grips with it and understand it a lot better. Here is what I'm talking about.
Orson Pratt, Parley P. Pratt are guests in the Smith's home. And they're just having casual conversation.
And as they're conversing with William Clayton and Willard Richards, make some notes about the conversation.
And their notes are what becomes doctrine and covenants 129, 130, 131. So it's not Thus saith the Lord or here are the directions. It's really just excerpts from casual conversation where Joseph Smith is kind of taking a deeper dive, if you will, going into some things that maybe he normally wouldn't talk about to the general church or to in part of a sermon or a revelation or instruction.
And so here's what seemed weird about doctrine and covenants 1:29, if I were to read it.
Joseph Smith talks about the two different types of beings that exist in heaven. And he says that the angels, some are resurrected men with bodies and some are spirits that are appearing in their glory.
And he says, if you want to know whether or not it's an angel of God or if it's a devil trying to deceive like an angel of light, if you will.
[00:02:55] Speaker B: Is this the handshake thing?
[00:02:56] Speaker A: This is the handshake thing.
[00:02:59] Speaker B: One of the few random, bizarre things I remember from learning about this in my childhood.
[00:03:05] Speaker A: Yeah, it is kind of a little random and bizarre, dope though it is. And see.
Maybe I'll just read a few verses.
It says, for instance, Jesus says, okay, I'll start with verse one. There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely angels who are resurrected personages having bodies of flesh and bones. For instance, Jesus said, handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have.
Secondly, the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory. When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you. If he be an angel, he will do so and you will fill his hand. If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect, he will come in his glory, for that is the only way he can appear. Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive. But he will still deliver his message.
If he be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands, he will offer you his hand and you will not feel anything that you may therefore detect him.
[00:04:14] Speaker B: And then what?
[00:04:15] Speaker A: And then what? See to me, I looked at this and said, well, jeez, if Joseph Smith has just said, hey, here's how you can tell.
Are the devils bound by rules that they always have to go deceive? Like if everybody understands that this is the case, wouldn't they just change their behavior?
Yeah, that's, that's why it seems so weird to me and understanding that this was not a revelation, if you will, given to the church for everybody to understand more. This is Joseph Smith talking about his personal experience with angelic visitations as he's passing on his wisdom to his friends in close confidence.
That, that makes far more sense to me.
And boy, Joseph Smith was very well acquainted with heavenly visitors. Then I wanted to just take a few minutes to talk about that if that is ok.
George Q. Cannon says he was visited constantly by angels. And so I am going to give you a list of people that visited him.
We have got Adam, Eve, Abraham, Seth, Enoch, Isaac, Jacob, Raphael, Gabriel, Moses, Elias, Elijah, John the Baptist, Peter, James, John, Paul, Nephi, Mormon, Alma, the three Nephites, and Moroni.
[00:05:43] Speaker B: Wasn't, wasn't he also at least like seen visions of like the Founding Fathers or something, too. Or were they not. Were they not actual visitations?
[00:05:52] Speaker A: I think the Founding Fathers, unless you're thinking of a different instance, came to Wilford Woodruff.
[00:05:56] Speaker B: Oh, that's what I'm thinking of. You're right. Dang it.
Because that's awesome that he got the spiritual guys and the Founding Fathers.
[00:06:03] Speaker A: But that is a cool story.
[00:06:04] Speaker B: That is a cool story. I'm thinking of Wilford Woodruff.
[00:06:07] Speaker A: Yeah, Morone visited him at least 22 times that we have record of.
And see these names. These are just the names that we know of that have been written. Right.
So this is what Lucy Mack Smith wrote.
And I find this fascinating every time quote, from this time forth, Joseph continued to receive instructions from the Lord. And pausing for a second when she says, from this time forth, this is after he goes to get the plates and he's told he can't get them. And so he's receiving instruction, but before he gets plates, that's the time that she's describing.
So going back from this time forth, Joseph continued to receive instructions from the Lord. And we continued to get the children together every evening for the purpose of listening while he gave us a relation of the same. I presume our family presented an aspect as singular as any there ever lived upon the face of the earth. All seated in a circle, father, mother, sons and daughters, and giving the most profound attention to a boy 18 years of age.
During our evening conversations, conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travel, the animals upon which they rode, their cities, their buildings with every particular, their mode of warfare, and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly as if he had spent his whole life with them.
So, yeah, he received a lot of angelic visitations. Orson Pratt said that these angels that ministered to him before he received the plates were Book of Mormon personalities with whom he spoke face to face with.
So as we are talking about his experience with angelic visitations, boy, the guy had quite a bit of experience.
And he's passing on some of the wisdom to his friends and close confidence. This is not something.
I don't see this as something, hey, the whole church should be aware. This is what you need to do. And this is going to be the case in every instance. This is more of a private, casual conversation as he's passing on some wisdom from the experiences that he's had. And in that context, it makes a lot More sense to me.
All right, that's 129. Let's go to Doctrine and Covenants. 130. Again, these are notes from casual conversations, but 130 and 131 are just loaded with powerful statements, starting with verse one, when the Savior shall appear, we shall see that he is a man like unto ourselves.
And what a powerful statement for people that had very differing thoughts about God at that time.
Joseph Smith, as he stated in the King Follett discourse around the same time period, as God is. Excuse me, as man is God once was. As God is now, man may become.
And I believe that this is a doctrine that has really set the Church of Jesus Christ apart from many other religions in this idea that we can become like God.
And as much grief as we've gotten for it, and as much as it seems like we're singular or unique in this. We've read from the Testament of Adam in at least two different episodes before that, talked about how the early church at least had documents stating that man could be like God. But I wanted to just take a little step back in time. Athanasius, who lived from 298 to 373 AD stated, God became man, that man might become God.
St. Augustine shortly before 1100 AD in a sermon delivered, he said, God became man so that man might become God.
And even in the Westminster Dictionary of Christian Faith Theology in the early 1900s, it defines deification as this deification, the Greek theosis is for Orthodoxy the goal of every Christian and understand that deification means to be made into a God according to them. It states, the goal of every Christian man, according to the Bible, is made in the image and likeness of God. It is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become God by grace.
This doctrine is based on many passages of both Old Testament and New Testament and is essentially the teaching both of St. Paul. Though he tends to use the language of filial adoption and the fourth gospel, the language of second Peter is taken up by St. Irenaeus in his famous phrase, if the word has been made man, it is so that men might be made gods and become the standard in Greek theology. In the 4th century, Saint Athanes and atheist excuse me, Saint Athanasius, who we quoted already repeats Irenaeus almost word for word. In the 5th century, Saint Cyril of Alexandria says that we shall become sons by participation. Deification is the central idea in the spirituality of Saint Maximus the Confessor, for whom the doctrine is the corollary of the Incarnation Deification, briefly, is the encompassing and fulfillment of all times and ages.
And St. Simeon, the new theologian at the end of the 10th century, writes, he who is God by nature converses with those whom he had made gods by grace, as a friend converses with his friend face to face.
And that's Alan Richardson, who was from 1905 to 1975, and Anglican priest who wrote that dictionary entry.
So, yeah, it is kind of a unique doctrine that sets us apart.
But the thing is, there are threads of this doctrine all throughout Christianity. And to me, it is not so amazing or surprising that the church of Jesus Christ believes that we can become gods.
It is more surprising to me that the rest of the Christian world has strayed from that belief or no longer buys into that.
What's the purpose of having a Christ, a God come and atone for us if it's not to exalt us, if it's not to lift us up?
And I guess my last point on this, this is something we talked about, the divine name Jehovah as we talk about the Lord as you read in the Old Testament, and you see Lord in all caps.
They did that because you're not supposed to say his name out loud.
And in English, you put Lord in all caps to say this is the divine name that they're referencing. You're supposed to say Adonai in the Hebrew, which means Lord. And to remind them of that, when they came across the letters of his name, they would replace the vows, they would vow it with the vows from Lord Adonai, which is where you get the Jehovah, those vowels getting placed into that name, so that they would look at it and say, all right, right, Adonai, which is why we have the capital Lord. But if you take that name and replace the vowels with what they believe the original was, it's a Hebrew word which means he will cause to be. He is the Creator.
But when you take his full name in connection with Elohim, Lord God, it's He will cause the gods to be one God Maker. Yes, he is the God Maker in the Old Testament.
So Joseph Smith doctrine and Covenants 131 starts off, God is a man just as ourselves. And this idea that we can be like him. And it's great to see this restoration, these threads of Christianity being pulled from the truth source, that they are restored in all of its glory. But 131 also hits all sorts of powerful things. He says the same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there.
And that to Me, I don't know how you define sociality, and I don't know if you have any thoughts on this, Nate. I know you're trying to keep your voice a little bit quiet and mend up for next week.
[00:14:39] Speaker B: And I also just don't know.
[00:14:42] Speaker A: What does it mean by the same sociality.
And in some respect, I think it does refer to the idea of families, the idea that we are children of God and our purpose is to grow up and advance to the point where we become like God, but also to have children and to keep this same society of. Of a continuation.
This idea that you inherit, I always think it's fascinating that it says eternal lives and it's plural. And you're, why do I need more than one? If one lasts forever, what am I going to do with more than one?
And maybe the idea is that continuation, you know, as you get married in the ceiling room and you look at the mirrors and you see that continue forever and ever. And it's not just you, it's your posterity or going back, it's the generations that came before you. So the continuation or the eternal life is not just eternal life for you, but eternal lives for your children and your children's children. And as Brigham Young put it, if we are going to be a God of gods or a king of kings, it is because we are going to be a father of fathers. And that. That continuation or that sociality, it could definitely mean that.
I'm not 100% sure, but society is important.
The church is commanded to meet together often to support each other. In the very beginning, the idea that they had to sell whatever they had and congregate together and find strength in numbers. And now as we gather, we gather where we are, but the important idea that you're not saved in isolation on your own, but we do branch together, hold together. And that society does play a key role, not only here on earth, but in heaven afterwards as well, I think is what the prophet is referring to.
And Joseph Smith did say something, and I'm going to paraphrase it, I'm not going to quote it word for word, maybe because I'm lazy, I don't know. But it was super interesting. He said he did not care whether he went to heaven or hell, as long as he went to wherever the saints went. And he said, if it's heaven, fantastic, right? We arrived.
But if it's hell, then we will cast out the demons and make it a heaven.
And how many times did they do that with Kirtland, with independence With Nauvoo, with the Rocky Mountains, this idea that they went where no one else wanted them, no one else wanted to be, and they turned it into a paradise. They made the best out of a bad situation. They bound together. That society does have an impact.
So something to be said about that.
Another thing I get From Doctrine Covenants 131 is Joseph Smith's perspective on knowledge and how much he knew. For being an uneducated farm boy, he is incredibly insightful.
And the statements he makes here when he talks about in 131 that spirit is matter, he says all spirit is matter. It's just more fine and pure than you can see with your eyes. But when we get to the point to see it, we'll see that everything is made out of matter.
That's a very scientific statement coming from a religious boy who wasn't very scientifically educated, if you will.
And he makes all sorts of statements here. When he talks about the time, he says, in answer to the question, this is 134. In answer to the question is not the reckoning of God's time angels, time prophet's time and man's time according to the planet on which they reside? I answer, yes.
This idea of the revolutions and how that takes in time can be different based on where you're at.
Just a reminder, this is over 100 years before Einstein comes up with his theory of relativity and the idea that as we learn with Einstein's theory of relativity, as you move faster, time passes slower to the point where if you're going the speed of light, time stops, which gets you into the whole weird.
Well, if time goes slower to the point of the speed of light, it stops. Could it go backwards if you were going faster than the speed of light?
[00:19:19] Speaker B: Right.
[00:19:19] Speaker A: The whole theoretical time travel. But all of this is going to be coming about in the 1900s. Joseph Smith in the 1800s saying that time is relative to your motion to moving around the planets.
And here he is, not speaking off of any education, but things that he's learned through the spirit.
Extremely insightful.
And he talks about matter not being able to be created or destroyed. And he says that's co eternal with God, that matter has always existed.
Looking at a statement that he made, I'm going to quote when he's talking about the translation of the Bible, he says, now the word create, and this is Genesis, chapter one, verse one. Now, the word create came from the word barak, which does not mean to create out of nothing. It means to organize the same as a Man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos. Chaotic matter, which is element and which dwells all.
Oh, I'm sorry, I got lost a little bit.
And which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time he had.
The pure principles of element are principle which can never be destroyed. They may be organized and reorganized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning and they can have no end.
That's from the teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith, the law of conservation of mass, that you cannot destroy matter. And for a long time, people thought that if you were to burn a log, for example, you were destroying it.
Or that flies came and showed up out of nowhere. If you set meat on a table, then flies would come in. This idea that God would create out of nothing. He would just create life and flies would exist. But when you put meat in a vacuum chamber and seal it, then the flies didn't show up anymore. And they realized, oh, the flies were coming and laying eggs, and the maggots would show up and the turn of the flies. And this idea that things did not get created out of nothing.
And the science community takes a while to catch up with Joseph Smith's perspective on this eternal nature of material, that it was never created. And he says.
He says something very interesting here. The pure principles of element are principle which can never be destroyed. They may be organized and reorganized, but not destroyed. They have no beginning and they have no end. And this idea that they can be organized and reorganized, or that they can change from a state of matter, or going into, even, if you will, energy, and then being reorganized. We talk about the creation, the idea that at the very beginning there's this large explosion, if you will, or enormous amount of energy, so much energy that there couldn't be matter, but then that energy converts into matter.
And we're talking more modern theories. We get to Einstein as we were talking about his theory of relativity.
He has the famous equation E equals MC squared, which is energy equals mass times the constant squared of the speed of light squared. This idea that if you were to take matter, you cannot destroy it, but you can convert it to energy by splitting atoms. You are releasing energy by converting that mass into energy. And we can calculate how much energy is created. And that's where you get the atomic bombs from Hiroshima, Nagasaki, all of those is matter being converted into energy. And we're talking about reorganizing it from one state to another.
These are things that did not belong in religious conversation yet. Joseph Smith is talking about how matter can be reorganized and organized, but not destroyed. And yet it fits with scientific conversation even hundreds of years later.
Yeah, I've got one more.
Give it to us.
Joseph Smith also said, this is from Doctrine and Covenant, Sections 88.
Light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fulfill the immensity of space.
The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed. Even the power of God, who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.
And I just wanted to focus on this phrase because to me it makes zero sense.
And he's talking about the light which proceeds forth to all things, giveth life to all things. And you're like, really? Light? Light gives life to all things?
I'm not sure, but it keeps going.
Which is the law by which all things are governed?
Even the power of God, who sitteth upon his throne, who is the bosom of eternity. You're like, really? Light is the power or the law by which all things are governed?
That's, to me, a weird statement. How is light the law by which all things are governed?
And I read those statements on light from the prophet Joseph Smith, and they strike me as profound, but I have a hard time understanding them in and of itself.
You go, you fast forward to physics and quantum mechanics.
According to.
It says matter is governed by light and condensed, normalized light vectors are the basic functions of quantum mechanics instead of probability distribution functions based on Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.
So what governs matter?
Light.
Light is the law by which all matter is governed according to quantum mechanics today.
[00:25:30] Speaker B: Because that the whole. The whole thing, correct me if I'm wrong with the quantum mechanics side of it, is that that if you split.
If you split a particle through two different lenses or whatever, it won't exist unless you see it.
[00:25:49] Speaker A: Yeah, that gets to be part of it. This idea that light has dual characteristics. Is it a particle or is it energy?
What is light and this wave, does it behave like a wave or does it behave like a little photon packet of matter, or is it a packet of energy?
And it has this dual properties, both physical and energy.
And the weird thing about quantum mechanics is that it's not just light that has this dual characteristic, but all of matter has these dual characteristics. And the dual slit experiment that you're talking about is this idea that if you're shooting photons individually or coming back to electrons, if you will, going to these splits there, these two slits.
If it goes through one slit, then it's going to hit the wall behind it. Right where that slit is. Just like trying to think of what that would be like.
[00:26:52] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:52] Speaker A: If you're, if you're traveling in a straight line, you're either going to get blocked by the wall or you're going to pass through the slit. If you pass the slit, you should hit right behind that slit on the wall behind it.
[00:27:01] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:27:02] Speaker A: So there should be two lines of photons hitting it.
However, what they get on the backside is a wave pattern which shows that these particles, these electrons, are spreading out in waves. And it's more of a probability statement that it could exist here or it could exist over there. What's the probability that it went here versus there? Which gets you to this Heisenberg's uncertainty principle of the more certain you are about where it is, the less I don't know, maybe I don't explain this very well.
Let me take it back to this, this experiment as they're going through and noticing this wave, this probability of where it could be showing up on the back wall when it's passing through these two slits.
The problem with this is that they were only sending one particle in through at a time, one electron.
And so as a wave goes through one slit and then another wave goes through another slit, they interfere with each other and it creates this interference pattern which puts that probability on the back wall.
If it's only one electron going through, it can't interfere with anything because there's nothing else for it to interfere with. So you should never get that wave pattern that they're getting.
That that created some problems. So they put detectors on the slits to try to see which slit it was going through. If the particle was splitting into two particles and interfering with itself and that was causing this wave pattern, well, as soon as they detected where the particle was going, which slit it was passing through, the wave disappeared, the wave pattern on the back disappeared, and instead you just had the two lines. So by observing it, by observing it, then it behaved differently, which is the.
[00:28:59] Speaker B: Wildest thing to me in the entire world.
[00:29:02] Speaker A: It's pretty crazy.
The simple act of observation would change the behavior of this particle going through the slits. And it gets even stranger as we're talking quantum entanglement, or separating particles and one being up and the other one being down and communication over long distances, instantaneous. Just weird stuff happening with quantum mechanics.
And as Einstein would look at this, he refused to believe that something didn't exist. Unless it was observed.
And the way he stated it, like, I refuse to believe that the moon ceases to exist if no one's looking at it. It's always there.
This really drove him nuts.
But as Heisenberg was developing this idea that a lot of these things, a lot of these properties really didn't.
They didn't exist until they were measured. I don't know, it gets kind of weird, but this isn't going to be a whole class on quantum mechanics. But the underlying principle of where they come is that matter itself is governed by light. And go back to a statement that Joseph Smith made in Doctrine and covenants, section 88, that this light proceedeth forth from the presence of God, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed. This is a statement well before his time.
[00:30:27] Speaker B: Cool.
[00:30:27] Speaker A: He makes a lot of interesting statements.
And the reason I'm talking so much about these statements that he's making is doctrine, covenants 1, 30, 18, 19. He says, whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.
And talking about someone who did not have a lot of advantages in respect to education, yet he was very highly educated. He understood beyond what people should have understood at that time. He was visited by a lot of angelic visitors. He sought every opportunity to learn what he could and to converse with people and to really glory in knowledge.
He believed that the reason why God was God was because he knew everything and that allowed God to subject all things below his feet. And that we could not gain salvation without gaining knowledge, that we were saved ourselves as fast as we learned, and we could not be saved in ignorance.
And so many times the statement ignorance is blissful. This idea that if I don't know or if I don't understand, then I can't be held accountable at that. And maybe we shirk trying to learn or trying to know because we don't want to be held responsible or we don't want that higher level of accountability.
But on the flip side, here Joseph Smith is teaching us, you cannot be saved in ignorance. Ignorance is not bliss.
You'll never get to where you need to if you don't.
If you are not willing to learn, if you are not willing to gather as much as you can. Knowledge is power. And that is something that he really embodied and something that you can see Made a difference. When you listen to his revelations and you listen to him speak even in these private conversations, the man cared deeply about learning and about knowledge and learned things beyond his age and beyond his educational level, if that makes sense. Yep, all right. Doctrine Covenants 130. Another thing that he states here that we've kind of talked about a little bit before is the idea of the celestial kingdom. So let's, let's. Let's pull a few verses out of this, see what it says when he says, the earth in its sanctified and immortal state will be made like unto crystal, and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom or all kingdoms of a lower order will be manifest to those who dwell on it. And this earth will be Christ's.
And when he talks about.
He says, I'll keep going. Verse 10. Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17 will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known. And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he receive it. The new name is the key word.
So that's. To me, it's interesting because he talks about this white stone, and he talks about the place or the people that received the white stone are those that are going to the celestial kingdom and not just the celestial kingdom. He talks about the highest kingdom of the celestial kingdom, and they receive a stone. But he says the place that he resides, the great Urim and Thummim. And you look down if you look in verse nine, the earth and its sanctified and immortal state will be made like unto crystal, and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom or all kingdoms of a lower order will be manifest to those who dwell thereon.
So those who are dwelling in the celestial kingdom will be able to look into the earth and see things pertaining to lower kingdoms play out before them below their feet. But also those who are in the celestial kingdom, this being the highest kingdom, are given a white stone, whereby they are seeing things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms.
And that to me, has always fascinated me. If you are in the celestial kingdom, what higher kingdoms are you peering into with the stone? Or what more is waiting for us that we don't know, because we are told to focus on our existence right here. We are not told a whole lot about what happened before we got here. We are not told a whole lot about what is going to happen after we go. Because so much needs to focus on our decisions and the now. This is our story. This is where we come from. This is where we are headed. But focus on what we need to do in this existence. But we get this peek into this next existence that maybe there is a higher order of kingdoms even than the celestial.
And maybe that is like looking into the mirrors in the ceiling room. As you look in the mirrors going one way of the generations are lower than you, maybe literally your descendants or their descendants, the father of fathers, the God of gods. And then looking the other direction, seeing things higher than you would be those that came before you. Maybe that's what it is talking about is higher orders. I don't know, but I find it kind of a fascinating statement here.
Ok, moving on.
I kind of skipped over verse three, but I want to go back and hit it real quick. When he says the appearance of the Father and the Son in that verse, Talking about John 14:23, there is a personal appearance. And the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man's heart is an old sectarian notion and is false. Here he is saying again, God and Christ can appear to man.
So this idea that oh, God's just going to be with you in your heart, it's not just about that. You can actually see God, seek to see God. That's something that he said in many of his revelations leading up to this point.
Don't kid yourself. You can obtain the presence of God and you should seek to see God. It is possible.
Okay.
He prophesies, verse 12. I prophesy in the name of the Lord that the commencement of difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of man. So as we talk about what happens before the Second Coming, what's going to kick it off? He says the commencement of those things are going to happen in South Carolina. It may probably arise through the slave question. This is the voice declared to me while I was praying earnestly on the subject. December 25, 1832, Christmas Day. He's praying about this subject and that's what's going to kick it off when we've said so much about the Civil War and the destructions that followed. I'm not saying anything more about it now, but it is kind of an interesting statement. I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man. When I heard a voice repeat the following Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou are 85 years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man. Therefore let this suffice and trouble me no more on this matter.
Why would God tell him that?
Is it because God knew he was not going to live to 85?
And it makes me wonder, because.
[00:38:14] Speaker B: We.
[00:38:14] Speaker A: Are going to get into this.
We are at the end of the year. We have got the death of the prophet Joseph Smith coming up in one of these episodes and we are going to talk about how he saw a way out of it. And he was the one that was going to come to Utah and the saints were going to travel over west and join him in Utah. And it makes me wonder if he had continued like in science, you look at a baby, if you were to continue growing at the rate of a baby growing, growing your entire life, you would pass up wells like monstrously large, right?
So I wonder, if Joseph Smith were to continue leading the church to the point where he was 85, would things have accelerated to the point where this would have happened? And did we just delay everything because they weren't ready at the time, like Israel, as they were headed to the promised land?
We just had to go back to the wilderness for a little while, who knows? And at this point, it is a lot of speculation. Joseph Smith himself did not understand what this meant and was not sure what to take of it. And again, this is not a revelation to the whole church.
Just a few musings with a couple friends and close company in his house.
And maybe the best comfort we can take from this.
If the prophet Joseph Smith wasn't afraid to say I do not know and have conversations, maybe we should take comfort in saying, you know what? I had some weird dream and I'm not sure what it means and I don't have to know what it means. Maybe I don't need to know that right now. Or maybe I read some verse and I'm trying to understand it, but you know what? It doesn't quite make sense to me. And I'll hold on to it. I'll treasure it and I'll think about it, but it's okay that I don't know.
Okay, we had this. The law irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of the world upon which all blessings are predicated, when we obtain any blessing from God is by obedience to the law from which it is predicated.
Great verse. My dad would read that a Lot. It's always stuck with me.
All right, let's move 131. We'll go over kind of quick. In the celestial glory, there are three heavens or degrees. In order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into the order of the priesthood, meaning the new and everlasting covenant. That's where we're headed with Doctrine Covenants, Sections 132. If he does not, he cannot obtain it. He can attain the other, but that is the end of his kingdom. He cannot have Increase. The more sure word of prophecy means to a man's knowledge that he is sealed up unto eternal life by revelation through the spirit of prophecy.
It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.
There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter. But it is more fine or pure and can only be discerned by pure eyes. We cannot see it, but when our bodies are purified, we shall see that it is all matter. Again, very bold statements from a prophet.
Doctrine Covenants 132. Let me preface this by, say, asking a question.
Have you ever asked a question that almost immediately you wish you could take back?
You know, this is opening Pandora's box.
[00:41:33] Speaker B: Insert the. Here we go. Bump.
[00:41:35] Speaker A: Yeah, that's what I feel like. Doctrine and Covenants 132 is like. I'll just read the start of this.
We'll see what I'm saying here. Verse 1. Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand, so Joseph, asking the question, inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord justified my servants Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines.
So Joseph asked, why. Why were these guys. Yeah, why were they righteous in doing this? How come this was okay for them?
And this is the point where you're like, maybe that's a question I shouldn't have asked.
Verse 2. Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God and will answer thee as touching this matter.
Therefore prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions of which I am about to give unto you. For all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.
For, behold, I reveal unto you a new and everlasting covenant. And if you abide not that covenant, then ye are damned. For no one can reject this.
[00:42:56] Speaker B: He regretted that right away.
[00:42:57] Speaker A: Yes. That is like, you know what? Can I have a take back on this question?
I am. Okay, let's but it does give us one of these, the most beautiful revelations. I love doctrine and covenants 1 32.
And he talks about the new and everlasting covenant.
And here it defines the new and everlasting covenant. And I think that's where I really want to go, maybe towards the end here, wrapping this up.
For behold, I reveal unto you a new and everlasting covenant. And he keeps talking about it in verse 6. And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fullness of my glory. He that receiveth the fullness must there thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned. Says that a few times.
And then here we go with the conditions and what exactly this Covenant is. Verse 7.
Verily I say unto you that the conditions of this law are these.
Here it is. Here's the new and everlasting covenant.
All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations or expectations that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity.
And that two most holy by revelation and commandment, through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on earth to hold this power, and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days. And there is never but one on earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred are of no efficacy, virtue or force in and after the resurrection from the dead. For, for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead, that is it.
If I go and I read this revelation, these are the conditions of the new and everlasting covenant. Any covenant, contract, bond, obligation, oath, vow that is not done and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise through him who is anointed by revelation through the priesthood, if it is not done through proper channels, it has an end when people die.
That's it.
That's the new and everlasting covenant. Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith God, not of confusion.
And maybe there's some comfort in this when he says verse nine, Will I accept an offering, saith the Lord, that is not made in my name, or will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed? When he talks about these connections, oaths, vows, obligations, bonds, if they are not entered through the priesthood ordinances, if they are not done through the right proper channels and sealed by the Holy Spirit, they are nullified. They are not.
How many times in desperation when we do something that maybe we shouldn't have done, or how many times does the guy going to the tavern and drink himself stupid and sick and then says, God, I promise if you help me feel better tonight, I will never drink again.
Is that not an obligation, an oath or a vow?
And sure, maybe we hold it to it in our life, but God says those are all nullified and void at the end of life.
Maybe God, there's some wisdom in God saying, no, these are the covenants, these are the vows. These are the oaths that I am going to hold you accountable to and maybe let you slide on some of these that you don't think.
You think you know what you are doing, but you are committing yourself into something that. What do they say?
You are writing checks your body cannot cash.
[00:47:10] Speaker B: Your mouth is writing checks.
[00:47:12] Speaker A: Yes, your mouth is writing checks your body cannot cash. Maybe in God's mercy, he is saying, I will define the terms of the agreement. I am the power. And it makes sense if you are going back to this idea of oaths and covenants. In the ancient world, the large country that dominates and wins sets the terms of the surrender for the smaller country. And a country that loses does not come to the larger one and say, yeah, we lost, but here you're going to be paying us reparations for it. Doesn't work that way, right? God sets these terms.
And the reason why this revelation is so beautiful is you look at these covenants that you have, and in particular, we're talking about the marriage covenant in 132 being sealed to your spouse everywhere else, anywhere else.
Nobody has authority to seal in the world to come, and no one pretends to that authority. Which is even more amazing to me.
When you go to a wedding ceremony in other religions and the sealing is done or the marriage is done until death do you part, because that is the limit to their authority.
I cannot state that you will with any certainty still remain married in the next life. That's beyond my scope.
But it's not beyond God's scope. And for God to call a prophet and say, hey, if you want this to last, this is my new and everlasting covenant. I will reveal the ordinance to you and give you the power whereby you can seal a spouse to each other, not just in this life, but in the life to come, and seal the children to the parents and the parents to the children, create this powerful link linking us all back through our whole generations.
This is the sealing power.
And it's such a powerful section. And I feel like 132 doesn't receive the credit that it does because of the focus on.
On polygamy. And you look at this and it's not even. Yes, the question initially was, why did they have multiple wives? But God is revealing something far more sacred or far more important. I know this was on your mind. Let me teach you what marriage is really about. Let me teach you about a power that will hold you to your family and turn your heart to your spouse and to your children far longer than this earth exists.
And not just this idea of marriage, but baptism, any covenants, any priesthood covenants that what you do here on earth will be sealed in heaven. And these verses are amazing as they talk about being sealed and becoming gods.
Because it's not just the idea of marriage, but the saving ordinances, that whole point that God became man so that man could become God, that this salvation is not just here on earth, but in the world to come. It applies and we will be exalted to a higher, holier state. This is the new and everlasting covenant. This is what it is about. Don't get lost on polygamy. Let me turn your mind to something far more important.
That is how I read doctrine and covenants 1 32.
And it is amazing to me, this sealing power.
And the one thing I guess I want to say to this, as we were talking about matter being eternal, that we can only organize or reorganize it as God states here.
Sorry, this takes me a little bit longer to. He says it in a couple different places.
Verse 15. Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me, nor by my word. And he covenant with her so long as he is in the world, and she with him. Their covenant and marriage are not a force when they are dead and when they are out of the world. Therefore they are not bound by any law when they're out of the world.
And he talks about the things of this world not lasting.
Verse 18. Again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit, a promise through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of this world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word, when they are out of the world, it cannot be received there, because the angels and Gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass. They cannot therefore inherit my glory, for my house is a house of order, saith God.
And he talks about this marriage not being able to last, and the things of this world not being able to last. And if you are doing it based on this worldly power, then as the world dies, as you die, it dies. And where I wanted to go with that matter cannot be destroyed, as Joseph Smith has talked about. It cannot be destroyed nor created. It's co eternal with God. It is only organized and reorganized. And this idea of permanence, of lasting, even though matter can last forever, organized matter, at least in our experience in this life, cannot.
Everything we build or create fails.
What do we see? We go to the ruins. And there's a reason we call it ruins because it is ruined from what it used to be from a long time ago.
The Great Pyramids are one of the few things that have lasted from thousands.
[00:53:34] Speaker B: Of years, but that is because the aliens built it.
[00:53:39] Speaker A: But even the pyramids are deteriorating.
Even those are falling apart. And if it wasn't for acts of people preserving them or doing things to try to preserve will not last. It cannot last.
And you look at the Coliseum and what's left of the Coliseum, you look at the Greek temples, these are sacred spaces. What's left of those as they crumble, as they fall apart?
What is one thing that man has created that will last forever? Nothing. We haven't figured out how to do it.
Just as we have a law that states that matter cannot be created nor destroyed, there is also a law of entropy.
That means that things go from a more organized state to a less organized state. That things are never just going to show up in a very organized sort of way, right? Over time, your bedroom is going to get messier, not cleaner, unless you put energy into it.
You're never going to get.
You're never going to get it more organized. Everything goes one direction. That's it.
Even us, as we get older, our body deteriorates, falls apart. We go one direction until we die, right?
[00:55:03] Speaker B: The band One Direction went one direction and all split up and had a bunch of different solo careers individually, there's.
[00:55:10] Speaker A: Only one direction they could go.
[00:55:11] Speaker B: That's right. There's only one direction one direction could go.
[00:55:14] Speaker A: Everything.
And that is chaos and God, that is the great juxtaposition is order and chaos.
Matter might exist forever, but not organized, unless energy is being put into it. And that's what God is doing, is putting energy into the system to organize it. If we want to exist forever. Perhaps we can exist forever. Our matter can exist forever. The atoms will exist forever. But will the atoms exist forever as us organized into an intelligent being that we are only through God's power and the resurrection, the atonement, he is putting the energy into the system to organize it.
Will our relationships last with our spouse Only through the sealing power of the Spirit, only through God, through He is ordering the matter.
So whether or not we exist as chaos or order depends on whether we subscribe to order, God's laws and following them, or whether we turn ourselves over to chaos and fall apart and get reorganized in a different way.
I don't know is that.
I don't know if I'm even stating that the best way I can feel like that.
[00:56:37] Speaker B: Stated. Great man. Let's keep going.
[00:56:39] Speaker A: Let me. Let me take one, one little random turn on this.
[00:56:43] Speaker B: Okay?
[00:56:45] Speaker A: The idea, if you were to throw your clothes into the dryer, which I do, and you're to open up the.
[00:56:52] Speaker B: Dryer, the sock always falls out.
[00:56:54] Speaker A: The sock always falls out.
The clothes are not going to be organized in the same sort of way in the dryer.
Sometimes the shirt might be on top or underneath or in the back or in the front or however. Right.
[00:57:07] Speaker B: Except for that sock that comes flying out every time.
[00:57:10] Speaker A: That consistent sock.
[00:57:11] Speaker B: That's a consistent sock.
I can bank on that.
[00:57:16] Speaker A: The amount of order in the universe for life to exist, for us to be placed at the right distance from the sun, to have the right amount of oxygen in the atmosphere, to have the right amount of magnetic power shielding us from the radiation of the sun, for everything to be exactly balanced the way it is for us to exist, all of the conditions is similar to going to the dryer, opening it up and finding all of your clothes neatly folded and sorted.
[00:57:47] Speaker B: That would be dope. Hey, scientists, we're looking at you for this one.
Figure out a dryer that can fold our clothes for us. Okay, keep going.
[00:57:55] Speaker A: So here's the other thing too. Isn't it Murphy's law? Anything that can happen will happen.
[00:58:01] Speaker B: Anything bad that can happen will happen.
[00:58:03] Speaker A: So if it can happen, it will happen. Right. Is it possible that if you did enough loads of laundry, eventually one of them would be folded?
[00:58:14] Speaker B: No.
[00:58:16] Speaker A: And entropy to me states no, like you're saying, because that would require more energy being put into the equation to be able to order it. Yes, because entropy is pulling it apart.
But from another perspective, if everything is possible is possible happens.
[00:58:35] Speaker B: But that's not Murphy's Law. Murphy's law is anything bad that can happen, will happen. But there's like anything bad that can happen. And also, we don't know who Murphy is.
Maybe you do. I don't. I don't trust Murphy. Keep going.
[00:58:48] Speaker A: So in order for a scientific explanation to explain away the amount of order that we have here means that a multiverse has to exist. This is where the whole theory of multiverse comes through, is that there is an infinite number of universes where that order simply doesn't exist, where the laws aren't like the laws that ours has. In order for ours to exist, there has to be at least an infinite amount out there that it didn't make it.
That's where the whole theory of a multiverse comes in.
Just to explain away how much order we have here. Or simply that the reason why life exists here is because it could exist here.
Not because it was created to exist here, but because it could. It did.
[00:59:36] Speaker B: I don't buy that law.
[00:59:40] Speaker A: It takes an interesting leap of faith.
[00:59:42] Speaker B: Yeah, that is a great word to use for it, by the way.
[00:59:44] Speaker A: It almost requires more faith to believe.
[00:59:47] Speaker B: Yeah, that's why I'm saying that's why I like that use the word selection.
[00:59:52] Speaker A: But going back, I guess, to this point, doctrine and covenants132 to me is a section on order, as God said. Mine is not a house of confusion. That's key. That's critical.
It's not about chaos. It's about law. It's about priesthood. It's about priesthood, ordinances.
God has a designated person here on earth. He does have an order. He does have a system.
And if we want to continue to be organized, to have the same society that exists there as it exists here, then we must prescribe to that order. We must prescribe to that system, and we must have these eternal ordinances done, which allows us to continue to exist in an organized way in the next life.
That to me, is Doctrine Covenants 132.
[01:00:43] Speaker B: Awesome. Great job.
[01:00:45] Speaker A: All right, I can drag one more thing in here about Abraham or we can wrap it up.
[01:00:50] Speaker B: Let's wrap it up.
[01:00:51] Speaker A: All right.
That's all I got then.
[01:00:54] Speaker B: That's amazing. What are we talking about next week? We're getting close, man. We're getting close to the Old Testament, dude.
[01:00:59] Speaker A: We've only got.
[01:01:00] Speaker B: Been waiting for this a couple, I.
[01:01:02] Speaker A: Think three more Doctrine Covenants lessons next week is 133 to 134.
[01:01:07] Speaker B: Okay.
[01:01:09] Speaker A: And then we follow that up with the official declarations from the church.
[01:01:14] Speaker B: Okay. Can't wait.
[01:01:15] Speaker A: Proclamation to the world on the family love it.
[01:01:17] Speaker B: It's my favorite.
[01:01:18] Speaker A: One Christmas special.
[01:01:20] Speaker B: Don't know what that is, but great.
[01:01:21] Speaker A: And then Old Testament.
[01:01:23] Speaker B: Oh, baby.
Oh, baby. You've been waiting for this, haven't you, Jason?
[01:01:28] Speaker A: Oh, I cannot wait.
[01:01:30] Speaker B: You know I've been waiting for this.
[01:01:31] Speaker A: And you know the best part? I mean, it starts with creation. Oh, man, if you anytime you're starting with creation, that's a good place to begin.
[01:01:40] Speaker B: I feel like creation is a good place to start, if you know what I mean.
[01:01:43] Speaker A: I agree. Let the begetting begin.
[01:01:45] Speaker B: Oh, yes.
[01:01:47] Speaker A: Let the beginning begin.
[01:01:50] Speaker B: Oh, man, it makes me feel so good. I can almost just feel myself being not sick right now. Then I remember myself being sick and I'm gonna need to cough, so. So let's wrap this up until next week.
[01:02:01] Speaker A: See ya.
