D&C 111 – 114 (2020 repost)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the Add on Education Network. The podcast where we take a look at the weekly Come follow me discussion and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, and here with me in the studio, my friend and this show's producer, Nate Pifer. [00:00:31] Speaker B: What's up, Nate? [00:00:33] Speaker A: Good to be back. [00:00:34] Speaker B: Good to be back as always. [00:00:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:00:37] Speaker B: Glad to have you back safely home from your big weekend soccer trip. [00:00:42] Speaker A: It was. It was nice. We went to Phoenix and I know some of you listening to the show are down there. Phoenix. Sorry we didn't have a chance to say hi. [00:00:51] Speaker B: What's up, Phoenix? [00:00:52] Speaker A: What's up, Phoenix? It was a great weekend. I was expecting the worst with Phoenix being super hot day and night. [00:01:00] Speaker B: But enough in the year, right? [00:01:02] Speaker A: It was. It was raining. [00:01:03] Speaker B: Oh, okay. [00:01:04] Speaker A: We got some clouds. It was a little bit cooler. It was. It was fairly pleasant weather for. For soccer. [00:01:10] Speaker B: Sweet. So that's dope. [00:01:12] Speaker A: It was a fun trip. It's good to be back and safe and good to be back doing another episode. [00:01:18] Speaker B: Sweet. Let's do it. [00:01:19] Speaker A: So this week we are talking about Doctrine and Covenants, Sections 111, 114. And starting off, we are going to go into some treasure hunting. We are going to talk about Thomas B. Marsh, some counsel that he gets from the Lord, and a little bit about Isaiah interpreting what Isaiah is saying, and finish up with some wise counsel about our importance in the gospel. [00:01:46] Speaker B: I'm ready. [00:01:46] Speaker A: So one question that I've had for a while that I want to answer, and I feel confident that we can provide a satisfactory answer to this question is why is it that back in the day people had such a hard time believing Joseph Smith when he said he saw God and they didn't believe just about anything he said, but they had no doubt that he found gold plates. They had no doubt that Joseph Smith had found gold plates. Why is it they didn't question that? Why is it people were willing to hound him and follow him and search for the plates and dig about? Why did they have no problems believing that Joseph Smith had found gold when they doubted everything else that he had said? Have you ever wondered that or thought about that? [00:02:43] Speaker B: I guess I never knew that people didn't doubt that he had found gold plates because there's definitely people now that doubt that. [00:02:51] Speaker A: Yeah, there's definitely people now, but back in the day, I mean, when he goes to retrieve the plates, there's people waiting for him, Right. And he gets in a scuffle with them. [00:03:01] Speaker B: Okay. [00:03:02] Speaker A: And not only that, but when they're relocating, right, and they search the wagon and they're searching for the grain, or they go break into the house and they ransack everything, why would they. Why would they be searching his home? Why would they be searching the wagon? Why would they be constantly chasing him down and looking for these plates if they didn't believe that he had them? It seems like that is one thing that they might not have doubted, even though they did not believe anything else he said. So why is it they put so much weight in him having gold plates? That just seemed weird. And I think I have an answer to that. But let's. Before we get into that, Doctrine and Covenants 1, 11. The Lord says, I, the Lord your God, am not displeased with your coming this journey, notwithstanding your follies. And so the journey that they're talking about, they're traveling to Salem, Massachusetts. And the Lord says, I am not displeased. Even though it's almost like there's a lot of follies involved with this trip. And what is the follies involved with this trip? I have a Doctrine and Covenants commentary written by Shodal, and in there he states that the folly would be going to preach the gospel to a people that aren't going to listen. That's the folly. If you are going to go preaching gospel and nobody cares, it is almost like a waste of time. And the Lord saying it is, okay, I am not displeased. It might seem like folly, but it is important that you do it anyways. That was the interpretation back then when he wrote his commentary. But I have to give props to the church. When you go into the come follow me and you read the historical context. They've done such a great job providing historical context into these revelations and what was going on. The church shows us that the reason they were going to Salem, Massachusetts, wasn't just so they could go preach the gospel to a people that weren't going to listen. It's because somebody told them that he knew there was a house there that was loaded it up with silver or gold or money. I don't remember exactly what currency it was, but it was, if I remember right, a widow or someone who had a home, that she had a lot of money that was there. And now she's passed away and the money is there waiting for somebody to go and claim it. So now Joseph Smith and company are headed with this guy who they trust to go find the treasure. And so you've got this little Bit of treasure seeking. And I know Joseph Smith gets kind of a bad rap as being a treasure seeker back in the day, and it seems like folly. The Lord here is calling it folly. Notwithstanding your follies and going and seeking after treasure and gold and whatnot, I still am not mad about you doing this. So why is it not such a bad thing that Joseph Smith is seeking after money? And that's going to hopefully spill into the answer of why do people not doubt Joseph Smith found gold? Why were they so eager to chase and find the plates that he had found? The time period here, 1830s. Let's take a look historically at the context. The golden age of pirates. Sixteen, let's see, 1650 to 1720. And the pirates are doing their thing. They're raiding, they're looting. You have pirates that work for the state, the privateers working for the English or the privateers working for the Spanish. And you had a pirate, let's see, what's his name? William Kidd, the captain. He buries his treasure up in Maine. And so you've got all of this happening in the end of the 1600s, the, the beginning of the 1700s. And then towards the middle of the 1700s, the golden age of pirates is kind of waning to a close. They are no longer as intimidating or as much as they used to be. Order and law and order on the seas is starting to prevail. And a lot of these pirates are dying off. And what are they leaving behind? Treasure. So in American history, from 1780 to 1830, that 50 year gap of time, a ton of people were looking for pirate treasure constantly. And they would dig as far in as 80 miles in off the coast, digging around, looking for buried treasure. It was something that was. Would calling it a fad be appropriate? It was, yeah. The thing of the time, and that's one of the fascinating things to me is that the Lord chooses a time period right after piracy when people are searching for buried treasure all over the world to reveal golden plates to a boy out of the ground. It fits with the time. I don't know, it's kind of cool. So with that, I wanted to share a story. Yeah, a little story time. [00:08:21] Speaker B: I'm ready, dude. I love story time. [00:08:23] Speaker A: Story time it is, dude. [00:08:25] Speaker B: I should get some like, production for story time. [00:08:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:28] Speaker B: When we're talking about, like, we're bringing up like some ancient Greek stuff or whatever, I need like a cool like production bump. I'm not doing a very good job as a producer. I'm mostly just hanging out. I'M gonna do better when we get into the Old Testament. I'm gonna have all of the drops ready. [00:08:44] Speaker A: Get your blankets, get your pillows, get your snacks. [00:08:46] Speaker B: I'm gonna get everything ready so that whenever you. So that when we have some reoccurring themes, I'll be ready for it next time. [00:08:52] Speaker A: All right? 1804. So this is actually the year that Joseph Smith is born. In 1804. Daniel Lambert's neighbors in the rural town of Canaan, Maine, of the upper Kennebec river valley were impressed by his apparent new wealth. According to the traveler, Edward Augustus Kendall Lambert. Excuse me. According to the traveler, Edward Augustus Kendall Lambert, like most of his neighbors, had been a poor farmer and logger in a very abject condition of life. So it attracted intense and widespread interest when Lambert and his two grown sons suddenly appeared in public, mounted on good horses and wearing expensive clothes. Twin marks of successful gentlemen. They ceased working on their homestead and idled their days away in the taverns of Canaan and adjoining Norwich Walk. Daniel Lambert added immeasurably to his local popularity by buying round after round for his neighbors, who gathered there to drink and gape at his fine apparel. He increased their consternation by ostentatiously lighting his pipe with burning banknotes. [00:10:08] Speaker B: No way. Yeah. [00:10:10] Speaker A: Yeah. So he shows up in fine clothes, riding nice horses, spends all of his day in the taverns, buys drinks regularly for anyone that's around, and lights his pipe with banknotes. Lacking any other apparent explanation, his neighbors attributed Daniel Lambert's sudden wealth to the discovery of buried pirate treasure. Of course, despite Canaan's location dozens of miles from navigation, the inhabitants readily believed that Lambert had found treasure chests because, as Kendall explained, the settlers of Maine, like all other settlers in New England, indulge in unconquerable expectation of finding money buried in the earth. That was the expectation of the time. Let's see. Indeed, backcountry folk insisted that troves of pirate treasure guarded by evil spirits pockmarked the New England countryside even in locales far from the coast. Daniel Lambert's reputed occult skills in handling divining rods further encouraged his neighbor's suspicions. Initially, the Lamberts remained guardedly mum. But in time, hints of discovered treasure escaped from Daniel's lips. He needed to say no more, for rapid word of mouth fleshed out the remaining details. Lambert was pronounced to be one of those fortunate persons who, born under a certain planetary aspect, are endowed with various and extraordinary powers. And he was soon found to possess enchanted mineral rods through which had been grown in the mystic form and had been cut at the proper age of the moon. Soon nothing was talked of but Lambert and his gold. And every day gave birth to new histories of the chest that had been found and its immeasurable contents. Lambert confirmed the reports by publicly demonstrating his divining ability to locate a gold coin buried in a test field. Lambert's apparent good fortunes inspired his neighbors fervent hopes of discovering and intense efforts to secure their own treasure chests. Kendall quoted an eyewitness. In the intense excitement all hands are digging in search of money to the neglect of tilling their lands and securing their crops. Days and nights are spent by many persons in digging up old swamps and deserts 60 and 70 and 80 miles from navigation. Lambert encouraged this emulation by assisting several digging parties in 1851, John W. Hanson recalled, gradually he inoculated the entire population of the Kennebec Valley with a treasure seeking mania. And people in all conditions of life were found digging from Anson to Seguin and all along the coast even to Rhode Island. Hansen concluded, the excitement so universal and intense can hardly be realized at the present day. It ended in June 1804, when Lambert's sudden disappearance revealed that he had discovered no chest, but had led his neighbors on in order to obtain their livestock on undeserved credit got him. But that I don't know. For me, it's fascinating. We take Joseph Smith's story and we try to put it in terms of today's world, what we're experiencing or what we think, and we fail to put it in context with what was really happening in the world then. We fail to remember that less than 100 years ago the pirate golden age was going on and that treasure seeking was a mania, a huge thing happening in America at this place at this time. And that Joseph Smith is a product of his times and that things, you know, the divining rods and all of these different instruments and methodologies are being invented and coming about this time period. And who is it that wrote it? Robert Louis Stevenson. Do I have that right? Treasure Island. [00:14:30] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah. I don't know. [00:14:32] Speaker A: 1880. [00:14:33] Speaker B: Right. [00:14:34] Speaker A: And he bases his story on Treasure island on earlier books and stories that are written about pirates and treasures dating back to 1824. So this is that time period which is kind of cool. And that's only part of the context, that's only part of the story. And I want to take that part of the story and look at this guy that had fooled everybody. And I almost see today modern treasure hunting a little bit Differently. And maybe this is an unfair potshot on my part. I don't know. [00:15:12] Speaker B: I'm ready. Hold on. This is another time I need that bump of like, here we go. When it's clearly like, here we go. [00:15:19] Speaker A: Buckle up, buckle up. [00:15:20] Speaker B: What do we got? [00:15:22] Speaker A: I think today God says that man might have joy and he wants us to be happy. But so many times we try to find that happiness somewhere else. We've talked about this in previous episodes when we were talking about finding a shortcut. Adam and Eve, right? What would have happened had that played out differently? Or is this in there just not being willing to wait on the Lord to find out how that was going to play out? We try to find the shortcut. And what I'm talking about here, as I look at this modern version of treasure hunting, is the get rich quick schemes that you can just go. And you don't have to work, you don't have to do anything. You can just get rich now. And not only to get rich quick in a financial sense, but in emotional happiness or state. These self help books, if you will, or self help. And maybe they have their place. And maybe I'm being a little bit unfair, but in my point of view, it almost feels like it's not so much about self help. The person who's writing it is actually trying to help anyone but themselves. Like, here's what you need to do, here's what you need to do, here's what everybody else needs to do. And the way in which they are helping themselves is everybody paying them for that advice on how to fix their lives. And everyone is trying to chase for that silver bullet or that magic whatever, that treasure, that chest that is going to bring them happiness or joy outside of the ways that the Lord has already lined up or that science or medical professionals, whatever the case may be. I mean, I don't know how far do I want to go down this road? [00:17:05] Speaker B: But there's a ton of stuff like that. I don't think it's even just self help stuff because like, anytime you jump on YouTube, it's like, I'm gonna teach you how to start your YouTube business that's gonna make you a millionaire within the first year. Or like, I'm gonna teach you all of the secrets of my investing tools and techniques. Like, all you gotta do is subscribe to this thing and pay me X amount of money. You know what I mean? Like Trump University or anything. I'm just, it's like, I see what you're saying and I feel like I Completely accept the point that you're making, which is at any given time, there is always the appeal of the shortcut, like you said, right? Like, I'm going to teach you the secrets of how to day trade in this thing and whatever. Or whatever it is, right? And again, the thing is, truth of the matter is, there is money to be made in all of these other types of things and stuff, but the way that it's sold to you is like, oh, it's basically free money, man. It's basically all you got to do is just listen to what I tell you to do. And if you do that and pay me some money, I'm going to make you a bunch of money and you're just like. [00:18:16] Speaker A: And to take it full circle. It's not that it's a waste of time. I mean, the Lord here tells Joseph Smith, notwithstanding your follies, I am not displeased with your coming on this journey. And I think the same thing, like, maybe we go down that journey, maybe we go down that rabbit hole and maybe we come to find out in the end that the guy that was selling us this bill of goods ended up being not who we thought they were or that whatever they were selling wasn't what we thought it was. It's not that it was a waste of time because now you've gained experience or now you've learned something or now you've come away. So I don't, I don't want to be overly harsh, but I do want to say, yeah, don't take shortcuts. I mean, there are smart things to do and there are ways to do it. But if you're trying to get rich quick or trying to find a way to lose weight overnight or be happy all of a sudden, and it doesn't involve the hard work or the steps or a fair way to get it, is it even worth it when you reach it at the end? Because part of the value in it is the price that you paid to get there, the work that it took to get you to that point. [00:19:25] Speaker B: I think that what you're saying is perfectly like. I think how you're saying it too is perfectly stated. And therefore I just want to reinforce that what you're saying is, and correct me if I'm wrong, anything that is worth something in the long run requires work and sacrifice. Yeah, and, and by the way, like, dude, I'm trying to learn how to be better about investing money in various things and in real estate and in stocks and things like that. And there is some really healthy failing and learning that comes along with that too, right? [00:20:04] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:20:05] Speaker B: So I think that I just want to make sure to like, I just want to make sure that our point, because I agree with you is super clear, which is there is a lot of really great information and things that can be gained by learning how to better yourself. Right. But the thing is like, I do know that unfortunately there is kind of a culture and you see it on like the Instagram posts that some accounts will post every day, that it's like the inspirational thought and the self help thing and it's like, oh man, I'm more worried that your life is a mess if this has consumed all of your, you know what I mean? Like your whole Persona. Like, how about I take you out to lunch and we just talk? Because like this is. There's a difference between posting things that sound good as like an Instagram re, you know, repost, and then things that are like, I don't, I don't. I'm with you. It's like, I just, I get a nervous sometimes that some people spend their entire life reading the self help book instead of just actually like doing proven things to just feel better or help themselves, you know, be happier or whatever that is. Right. And that you can sometimes almost rely on those things or look to those things to find answers where so much of the answers can actually be found by like, go to bed on time and eat healthier and surround yourself with supportive people and eliminate people in your life that are a drag. You know, like, I, like, I mean, whatever, again, like, I'm with you. I don't think that, I don't think that there is no value to those things. But I think that what we're saying is, is that, that sometimes we get so caught up in all of the gazillion ways that this person thinks that you can be a better parent or a better spouse or just a better person or whatever. And, and, and you can, you can kind of like strangely get, I don't know, caught up in a lot of noise. And I think that that's where it can kind of become dangerous is when. Is when you're looking for the shortcuts, when it's like, no. Oh, and by the way, being happy is not always the easiest thing to do in the entire world. No matter how much a book can give you the list of 10 things that are guaranteed to make you happier. Right? Like, those things are hard to do. Anything that's worth something in the long run requires sacrifice and work. That's It, I think, is that fair? [00:22:41] Speaker A: Yeah. And I'm glad that you brought up the point of even Instagram, you mentioned as you were talking about that, because looking at this guy who deceived everyone into thinking that he was rich when he hadn't found treasure at all, he was just borrowing from people on the perception that he was rich. How many times on social media do we create this perception of, of happiness, of well being, of, hey, I'm on this vacation and you are always posting your best self. You're always posting everything that's great and wonderful about life. And I almost want to say, and I don't want to be, I know this is a generalization. I don't want to say this is the case with everybody. But I want to say sometimes we might make a correlation with what this guy did here in the 1800s with, with an influencer that is trying to put a message out there, that is trying to. [00:23:33] Speaker B: Just say it. [00:23:34] Speaker A: It's Tony Robbins. [00:23:35] Speaker B: Just say it. I'll say it. It's Tony Robbins. Okay, now keep going. [00:23:42] Speaker A: I wasn't even thinking, oh, I will. [00:23:44] Speaker B: I'll say it. I'm not scared. [00:23:47] Speaker A: But I think these influencers who are always trying to touch up the photos or make themselves look more beautiful are trying to do something and trick people into thinking that they are happier, more successful or doing better. And, and then to come to find out it's just an empty shell that they sold you on. [00:24:03] Speaker B: Or they post these like, nonsense quotes that again, like, might look good on an Instagram header for a minute, but then when you actually stop to think about it, you're like, that doesn't even mean anything. That's nonsense, Tony Robbins. [00:24:19] Speaker A: And if you get caught up in this, don't feel bad. You're not in bad company. Look, here we are, Joseph Smith & Co. Heading to Salem, Massachusetts to find money. And why is it that Joseph bought this hook, line and sinker? Why was he so desperate that he was treasure hunting in Massachusetts with church members there trying to find money that they didn't earn? I mean, this is absolutely a shortcut, right? [00:24:51] Speaker B: Sure. Because it's human nature. And because maybe they needed money too. I don't know. Like, why do we, why do we jump on every pyramid scheme that comes along? Right? Because all of us still get that little hint of excitement when it's like, oh, man, we could really use some extra cash, man. This seems like a pretty sweet way to get. [00:25:14] Speaker A: Does well. And I don't think it helps when you see the story in the New Testament, when they're saying, hey, we need to pay, I got to remember the details on this. When they're asking him to pay the tax or whatever, the foreigner's tax, and he says, okay, if we need to pay this tax, we need to pay the tax. Go find this fish, and in the fish you'll find a coin and then go pay the tax. [00:25:38] Speaker B: Right? [00:25:39] Speaker A: So you've got stories of God providing money that they didn't necessarily earn or have on hand in order to take care of their needs. And it doesn't help that not too long ago, he translates the Book of Mormon and in the middle of this fever of people looking for treasure, what does it say in the Book of Mormon that the ancient inhabitants, who, by the way, they believed lived in the same areas that they were living, buried, buried all their treasure so that people wouldn't find it. And then the ground was cursed so that they could never find it again. [00:26:11] Speaker B: Right. [00:26:12] Speaker A: So he's thinking all of this treasure is there for the taking. Almost like Nephi going back to get these plates. Right. Maybe God has provided a way. Why does he need deliverance so bad? This is where I think context helps the discussion so much. We've looked at the piracy, we've looked at this mania going on and finding gold. But here's the other context of what's going on with Joseph Smith. They had created the United Firm, which we know now today as the United Order. But back then, the United Firm was the idea that the church had a couple of businesses that were going to support them financially. They had a mercantile in Nauvoo, or not Nauvoo, they had one in Kirtland. Excuse me. And then they had. Over in Missouri, they had a print shop and they had another store. Right. So these three businesses were the anchor for the church's financial means. And what did the Church need finances for? Well, God commanded them to build a temple. So they take out a loan to buy this property and to get all the building materials and to build this house in their poverty. So the church is saddled with debt. But it's okay because they've got these three businesses, right? No. What happened to those businesses in Missouri? The press was destroyed. [00:27:36] Speaker B: They got trashed and burnt or whatever, Right? [00:27:39] Speaker A: Yeah. How much did it cost to buy a press and to put this building together and to start this business? Huge investment. And where's their return on that investment? And then the store, they raided the store, broke the doors down, stole all the goods and ran the store out of business. So not Only are you paying for the building and the lot. But you just lost your entire inventory that you bought, not with the money that you got from selling it, because now you'll never sell it. You've gone in debt. Just like Joseph Smith's dad, who had bought a huge load of ginseng. [00:28:18] Speaker B: That's right. [00:28:18] Speaker A: And went to go trade it, and the guy stole his whole load. And then he loses his business, loses his stores, spends everything he has just to finally lease a farm and kind of in debt the rest of his life. This is what happened to the church. They are in debt with the temple, they are in debt with the press and the store and all of their inventory and stock. There is some serious financial concerns that Joseph Smith, as leader and head of the church, is terrified about. So tell me if you are in that position at that time period and this is going around and somebody comes to you and says, hey, there is a house that nobody knows about, loaded up with money. And by the way, that money is enough to pay for the store that you lost, enough to pay for the temple that God gave you. And you as prophet are thinking, here I am at this place at this time with this guy telling me this information that nobody else knows. It's got to be God sent. I'm going to go get these plates. And just like Nephi. [00:29:29] Speaker B: You can think. [00:29:29] Speaker A: Of Nephi who said, we left all of our gold and our silver and our precious things behind. Why did we leave them behind if it wasn't to go and buy these plates? This is what God wants us to do. Let's go and get it. It's going to work out. It's going to take care of itself. And so we think this is the answer. We think this is the solution. And God encourages us to think for ourselves. He encourages us to find solutions. He encourages us to be active. So looking at the context, I'm not so quick to be critical of Joseph Smith, nor am I sure I would do anything different in this situation than what he did. [00:30:11] Speaker B: We still do it now, is all I'm saying. [00:30:13] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:30:14] Speaker B: We. We still do it now, even if it's wrapped up in something. You know what I mean? Like you said, just if. If it's packaged different, we totally do it. We still all do it. What? Why? Because we all could use some extra cash and we all don't have necessarily a ton of time to go and. You know what I mean? Like, put it in. Yeah, I'm just saying, like, I'm totally with you. And I think that again, like, there's two great lessons here. One, things rarely, if ever, come easy or without a lot of work and sacrifice. And two, that's human nature, like we said. And I'm glad you put it that it's like God can kind of laugh and shake his head and be like, well, some point maybe you'll learn. But maybe this is just part of the flaw of humanity. But I still love you and you're good. [00:31:12] Speaker A: Yeah. And the Lord, he follows it up here with a couple verses that kind of just validate what he's doing, what he's experiencing, and tells him, don't worry about it. He says in verse 4, and it shall come to pass in due time that I will give this city unto your hands, that you shall have power over it insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts, and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours. So he's looking for financial means. And the Lord makes an interesting promise here when he says, they shall not discover your secret parts. And this is something that we have seen in scriptures over and over again. And I think the meaning is a little bit lost, but I think we've talked about this. When they're talking about Zion as a daughter being embarrassed that her secret parts are discovered, she is sitting naked versus when the restoration happens, she puts on her garments and she is clothed. And we talked about this in context of the Garden of Eden. When they sin, they become naked, and it is embarrassing. They don't want the Lord to discover their secret parts, so they try to cover themselves. And the Lord's form of atonement is to cover it, to tone, cover their nakedness with coats of skin. And the Lord is saying, they will not discover your naked parts or your secret parts. I will cover for you. I will clothe you. You were looking for gold and silver. You were worried about it. You are worried about redeeming Zion. These things are good worries. But don't worry so much about that. Worry about some of the other things that you need to, and let me take care of that for you. And the silver and the gold will be yours and. And the city will be yours. Now look at it today. Back then, in Joseph Smith's time, it probably would have been hard to imagine this. But today we have the blessing of hindsight and to see where we've come and where we're at. Does the church need to beg, borrow or steal to pay any of its debts today? And how financially secure is the church today? And how has the Lord guided the church and Blessed its path to a point where we are very financially stable. Yes. And Zion, we talk about redeeming Zion. Zion is not just one city anymore. You look at Zion spread across the entire world. What is independence compared to the Zion that is today, this global society, this church that has grown and filled the earth and continues to grow. And he was worried about this little city. But that little city is nothing compared to the global Zion that exists today. [00:33:55] Speaker B: But again, to be fair, like, it's hard to not ever see past your current problems, right? Or situation, you know, And I'm just saying, I'm just adding. You're totally right. That perspective in the long run would make you go, oh, that's not a problem at all, right? I mean, it would make us do that with most of our problems. But as somebody that is self employed, I can tell you that there are times when the next month is coming up and you're like, I haven't had a paying, you know, like a paycheck in a while because I'm finishing things more than I'm starting new things. And there is definitely some sleepless nights where it's like, your present problems are the only thing, like, they're consuming, right? [00:34:37] Speaker A: Yes. [00:34:37] Speaker B: And so I also, again, it's another one of those things where I'm like, yeah, there are definitely times where I completely sympathize with the idea of, hey, here's our quick way to get some money. I'd be like, sweet, you mean I can pay all my bills next month without having to lose an entire week's worth of sleep? Like, I'm in, right? Like, that's a real thing. And by the way, every single time you step back now that I've been self employed, what, for 10 years or close to, right? If you look at the big picture of the last decade, you go, oh, yeah, man, what are you stressing out about? Like, it's gonna work out. It continues to work out, right? So again, perspective, it's a lot easier to see those things from two or three miles above Earth, right? But when you're down in the dirt and the mud, it's like, it's consuming. It's hard to see past that. So again, I also get it at the time, right? If the debt's like piling up and you're looking at this, it's like, you're not thinking about, well, in a couple hundred years, we're gonna have a billion dollars. [00:35:40] Speaker A: I could tell you stories of the stupid things I did in college for money. I mean, I got 20 bucks for doing the cinnamon challenge. And I put that spoonful of cinnamon in my mouth, and I swear that stuff was coming out of my ears and coming out of my nose. And I thought I was going to die, but I did not open my mouth and I swallowed it and I got $20, and I would never do that again. And I don't know why I'm even mentioning this, but you get these points in your life when you're right. It doesn't seem like a little thing. It seems like the biggest thing in the world. And there was a conference talk not too many years ago. Maybe you remember exactly who said it, where you take a pebble up off the beach and bring it up to your eye, and all of a sudden it fills your entire view. And that's all you can see and that's all you can focus on. But if you were to move that pebble back, it's just a matter of perspective. [00:36:38] Speaker B: I used to tell my high school kids all the time, like, if you just put your hand up in front of your face, it's the only thing you can see and it's the end of the world, right? You scoot it like you just said, you scoot it back and you're just like, oh, wait, there's an entire universe around me and my hand floating out here is the most insignificant little thing, right? It's true. But again, at the time, I totally sympathize with people that are, like, consumed by the present issues, you know? [00:37:08] Speaker A: And I'm glad you mentioned high school, because it's something that is so significant at any stage in our life. I mean, when you're a little kid and your mom says, you can't have that cookie, like your whole life has ended, everything revolved around you having that versus high school. When all of a sudden is life worth living anymore? If you. If you don't have that crush or something embarrassing happens or. Right versus newlyweds and trying to figure things out and financially trying to get through school or finding your first job where you're getting paid pennies and the housing market is so expensive, you don't feel like you can ever afford a home. And how do you get through those moments? How have you gotten through it? I mean, Nate, you brought self employment up. This is something that's been real for you and your family. What gets you through those moments? [00:37:52] Speaker B: It's funny because it is perspective, but not in the way that I think sometimes people expect it to be. Right? Like I do. I know that there's this Idea that it's like, hey, man, whenever problems come up, like, just have some perspective. It's just like, what? No, that's not how it works. Like when problems arise, it's the only thing you can freaking see. No, it's not as easy as having perspective at the time, Right? [00:38:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:24] Speaker B: But what is helpful though is, is to just look back and go, what are the proven ways that I have been able to figure out how to overcome this challenge? Right? And so, yes, it's perspective, but it's usually not in the moment, right? It's usually having these discussions right now so that I will be prepared for Christmas time, which is my least favorite time of the year, because I'm doing the least amount of work. Because everybody else is wanting to save up all their money for Christmas and not work on their record, right? So it's when I have the least amount of work and I'm self employed and spending the most amount of money recklessly, right? And so part of it is not necessarily perspective in the moment to be so Zen that you can be like, oh, it's okay, it'll all work out. But instead going right now when things are fine and things are good, going, okay, hey, how can I, how can I prepare so that I don't have to stress out, so that if things kind of do get sketchy, I can remember? You know what I mean? It's a lot of that is preparation and perspective looking back and not trying to necessarily be able to look past current issues. Which, by the way, certain amounts of like fear and anxiety aren't the worst thing in the entire world, right? Especially if it motivates you to go do something. Like hunger is the greatest motivator in the entire world, right? Or the hunger of the people that you're responsible for. It inspires you to go do great things, right? And one thing that I have been blessed with innately is a desire not to be hungry ever. That has. That has luckily helped me learn how to just hustle and not get comfortable. But again, to answer the question though, it's. I feel like it is perspective, but not in the way that everybody expects. Like this Kumbaya. Like, man, whenever you have a problem, like, don't even worry about it. It's like, that doesn't work. No, it doesn't work for anybody. [00:40:31] Speaker A: It doesn't. [00:40:32] Speaker B: So instead go, okay, maybe accept it. For me, I mean, I have simple tricks like write a list of the things that you need to do tomorrow so that you can go to sleep, right? Like all of the things that are on your mind, just write it down real quick in your phone or on a notepad. Put it off to the side, okay? Because it'll be there in the morning. And then you can stress about it when you can actually do something about it. Right? But again, it's funny because usually even then in the morning, you go, it's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay. You know? And so, I don't know. Does that kind of answer the question? [00:41:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I think so. And I think a lot of times. Well, a lot of times our biggest strengths are also our biggest weaknesses. Or our biggest weaknesses are our biggest strengths. And as you mentioned, that hunger, that need, that motivation, or even the anxiety and the stress that you feel, how do you respond to it and what do you do with it? Because if that's what's motivating you to put in the hard work, to make those changes, to not take the shortcut, then in the end it's going to pay off. In the end, you're going to be better because of it. But if it is paralyzing you and keeping you from moving anything because you can't stop focusing on it, you have got to find a way to make those weaknesses work for you, not against you. And those can be some of the best strengths that God has blessed you with to make it work for you. In the end. Then God finishes up this chapter, this section, I should say, giving them some excellent advice. Therefore, be ye as wise as serpents and yet without sin. And I will order all things for your good as fast as you're able to receive them. So he's saying, don't you know? Yeah, you went there, that's fine. Be wise. Be wise. Be able to look through some of the things that are false. Be able to understand it. Be able to learn from this experience. And there is more treasure than one. You came here looking for X and thinking that's where your treasure lied. And being able to redeem Zion. Guess what? I have. Why here waiting for you. You're going to find people. You're going to be blessing their lives. You're going to be making a difference. And you're going to find something you didn't even know you were looking for. That, by the way, is of more value than the treasure that you first sought out after. I'm going to take care of Zion. I'm going to take care of your financial needs, but you're going to be taking care of this person who is waiting for you. You're going to Be taking care of this need that you didn't know you had. Be wise, and these are going to work out for you. And you're going to be better off because of it. Love. It kind of. Kind of interesting that he would make that reference to serpents, though. I mean, in Genesis it says the serpent was the most wise of all. Right. More subtle than any other beast. [00:43:10] Speaker B: Yes. [00:43:11] Speaker A: And he says, I want you to be as wise as the serpent, yet without sin. And maybe there's some wisdom in what the serpent was trying to do, because maybe ultimately he. I mean, God's plan was in the works. But anyways, neither here nor there. Let's go to Doctrine and Covenants, Section 1 12. Now, this is counsel given to Thomas Marsh. And just going to read a few things in here. Verse 10. Be thou humble, and the Lord thy God shall lead thee by thy hand and give the answer to thy prayers. And I believe that's a hymn, right? Be thou humble. It is from the Scripture. [00:43:53] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. [00:43:55] Speaker A: Be thou humble. I know thy heart and have heard thy prayers concerning thy brethren. Be not partial towards them in love above many others, but let thy love be for them as for thyself. And let thy love abound unto all men and unto all who love thy name and pray for thy brethren of the 12. Admonish them sharply for my name's sake, and let them be admonished for all their sins and be faithful before me in my name. So pretty good counsel to Brother Marsh there. President of the quorum of the 12 at the time. If Joseph Smith had died at this point, he would have been the next prophet of the church until things didn't quite work out for him. He, I guess, was not humble in the end, but there was good counsel that could have helped him had he been something else. I want to come in on this. Is this prophecy? If you will. Verse 23. Verily, verily, I say unto you, darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people and all flesh has become corrupt before my face. Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth. A day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation. And as a whirlwind it shall come upon the face of the earth, saith the Lord. And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord. First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord. Therefore see to it that ye trouble not yourselves concerning the affairs of my church in this place, saith the Lord. Where is all of these destructions and terrible things going to start? It's going to start in his house. [00:45:57] Speaker B: Cleansing the inner vessel. [00:45:59] Speaker A: Cleansing the inner vessel. And which temple was it started on fire? Kirtland Temple. [00:46:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:10] Speaker A: Burned down. Or was it the Nauvoo? [00:46:11] Speaker B: Wait, no, no, the Kirtland Temple. [00:46:14] Speaker A: Wait, one of them, right? [00:46:15] Speaker B: Yeah, it was Nauvoo. Because the Kirtland temple basically just got repoed, didn't it? Or like, yeah, the other church kind of took possession of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Nauvoo. [00:46:26] Speaker A: Nauvoo got. Got destroyed. [00:46:29] Speaker B: One of the two did. All I know is that the Logan temple was the fourth temple constructed after the St. George Temple. [00:46:35] Speaker A: Glad you know that. The, the Saints went through a lot of persecution, but there's. [00:46:42] Speaker B: Okay, so I don't mean to stop. But there's symbolism in that too though, right? [00:46:45] Speaker A: Uh huh. [00:46:45] Speaker B: That again, like, God will purify his people before he goes out. And I mean, you see it throughout the Book of Mormon. I. Even the Moroni, Yeah, the letter to Pahoran was just like, hey, man. Like, which by the way, it's a good lesson I actually learned from my dad. Like I read, I read that story different because he was like, oh man, Pehorin's the man. He's like, he, he. He gets this letter basically from Captain Moroni, right, Saying, hey, I'm coming through. If you don't give me the support we need from like, the political side of this. I'm coming in to cleanse the inner vessel. I'm coming in to wipe out the city, including you, and pay. Horan is like, calm enough to be able to be like, listen, man, I'm working on my own thing over here. I, I have enough troubles. I'm with you. Like, like, trust me, I wish I could help you more. But we have an uprising here, whatever it is, in the city, right? So instead of, instead of just blowing up Captain Ronnie, he was like, God be with you, brother, but thanks for that lesson. Or thanks for that letter that threatened to kill me, but thanks for that. I'm glad. It's like he was like kind of the ultimate politician, right? The ultimate diplomat. Like, I love your passion. Like, he was able to kind of. [00:48:09] Speaker A: Channel that for kind of in a. [00:48:10] Speaker B: Weird sort of way with like, channel that. But, but what I'm saying is the point anyways, Bruce Lee. [00:48:15] Speaker A: Be the water. [00:48:16] Speaker B: Be the water, dude. But the point is, I mean, even the ships, there's the idea that it had the hole in the top and in the bottom so that people could have a place to go to the bathroom while they were on the boats floating across the ocean. Right. Like there was ways to cleanse the inner vessel before the outer vessel, I guess. [00:48:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:39] Speaker B: So there's a lot of symbolism even in that. Right. Like, again, nobody wants to see a temple burned down. But then when you read it in context of the scripture you just read, that's a very common theme. [00:48:53] Speaker A: It is. And I think people have latched onto this scripture to say in the last days, you are going to see some massive destruction start in Utah, and then it is going to spread out to the whole world. And perhaps that is the case. When I look at it, though, and I consider it was the Nauvoo Temple, four years within its dedication, it burned down to the ground. And you think of what energy and work the saints put into building these temples and the persecution that was chasing them out, that they had to go out to Utah before. You know, some of them weren't able to get their temple work done and had to wait years and years and to have what they went through. You know, you've got Hans Mill, you've got Jackson County, Missouri, getting pushed out. You've got the things that were happening Nauvoo, you've got ultimately them crossing the plains and coming to Utah. They were scourged, they were destroyed. They did have property destroyed. You look at Joseph Smith with the press going away and the store being destroyed. And then you look at the bank and how that failed. And then you look at the people that were tried Zion's Camp and those that left because of what happened afterwards with the bank. [00:50:09] Speaker B: They. [00:50:09] Speaker A: These guys, if anything, suffered first and when they were done, and you get this refining fire of saints and this foundation, just like the Salt Lake Temple, that the foundation wasn't ready and they had to unbury it and tear it all out and do it all over again. And you get to this 40 years of the wilderness or whatever the case to get to this new people that are ready. And then what happens when from there it spreads to where they lived, this massive civil war, and then that breaks out to a world war that envelops the whole world. And then all of these revolutions that are happening for independence all over the world and a second World War and a cold War, and the whole world is just changing. I look at it and I See prophecy fulfilled, and maybe there is dual fulfillment, and maybe we are waiting for a future time when it happens a second time around. But I can't help but look back and again, hindsight being 20 20, and just see how true it was that everything the Lord said is happening just as it seems like it said. [00:51:21] Speaker B: I like the culture around or the idea just culturally around cleansing the inner vessel always feels like it's. The terrible things are gonna happen to us first. Right. But it's interesting because I, like, think about it and you go, okay, yes. Cleansing a wound can. Can be painful. You know what I mean? And necessary. Right. Like, because you don't want it to get infected. You don't want it to fester. So it's like. Like, again, you cut your lip open and has a bunch of gravel and stuff, and it's like, yeah, you got to take that wire brush and you. You know what I mean? At the hospital, they. It's like, yeah, because we don't want this to get infected and be worse before you can put in it. Right. So I do get the idea that, like, cleansing in that way can be a painful thing. But. But there is, like, something that is. That's also so amazing about that. Right. About becoming clean and losing the weight of dirt or. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, there's also just nothing better than, like, an amazing shower after you've been up in the mountains for a week. You know what I mean? [00:52:32] Speaker A: Yes. [00:52:32] Speaker B: And you're washing off kind of that dirt and stuff like that. So I think that it's. It's sometimes easy to only look at that. Those prophecies as, like, these terrible things are going to happen. Right. But the thing is that there's also ways that you can purify things without. [00:52:49] Speaker A: Having to go through the. [00:52:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Without having to necessarily have it be a terrible thing. And therefore, like, why on earth would we not think that that prophecy is already being fulfilled? Right. Like, like, is the Lord not currently cleansing the inner vessel? You know what I mean? And. And even at the time was. Was not God giving the saints trials, yes, to help purify them, but also an abundance of blessings that nobody else on earth was receiving at the same time as well. Right. To cleanse them. And again, the temple ceremony, when we're cleaned, that's not a painful process. That's a preparatory process. [00:53:35] Speaker A: It's a beautiful process. [00:53:36] Speaker B: It's a beautiful process. And so I guess I just wonder, like, if we just need to make sure that we also keep perspective on when you see these prophecies of the cleansing of the inner vessel, that can be an amazing release of stress and of weight and of. You know what I mean? And not just like, well, I guess we're just gonna have to go through a bunch of pain for forever. And that makes us righteous. It's like, no, no, no. There are some painful, like we talked about earlier. There is sacrifice that's required, There is pain that is required. But it's not just. We're just out here begging for misery, right? [00:54:18] Speaker A: Yes. [00:54:18] Speaker B: That's not the only way that God cleanses his people or the earth, you know. Yes, fire cleanses, but guess what? So does rain. [00:54:33] Speaker A: Anyway, Excellent point. And the. The idea of before you pull the mote out of someone else's eye, take the beam out of your own. Right? Or even trying to help somebody, one of the first things they teach you in life saving in a swimming instance is if you can save somebody by not getting in the water by extending a rope or a pole, that's the best way to do it, rather than jumping in with them and exposing yourself. Yes. Putting yourself at risk and drowning. How do you financially bless the poor if you don't have financial means to where you can bless the poor and this idea of taking care of that beam in your own eye, what can you do? Not necessarily whipping yourself on the back or going through this painful process, but as you said, taking a shower or refreshing yourself in a positive way. How can you prepare yourself to be able to serve and be on solid footing to help others? What changes can we make in our lives? And maybe it's simple things. As we study the scriptures on a regular basis and we start to understand them and our minds are enlightened, and then we are in a position to where we can share what those scriptures mean to other people. Because we have been enlightened and we have cleansed that inner vessel. We have received that light, and now we are in a position to, from my house, go out and spread that light, spread that cleansing, so that others might be inspired to look a little bit deeper or put a little bit more effort or do whatever it is to cleanse themselves, themselves, that light on the world and how it goes, illuminating everyone else. So I love the dichotomy. And this is something that we keep going back to. Waters that destroy versus waters that purify. This fire that cleanses and purifies versus destroying and these things. The river in Lehi's vision at one time is depicted as filthy sin versus the fountain of Living water. I mean, it's so. It's cool. I'm very glad you brought that up. [00:56:46] Speaker B: All right. [00:56:46] Speaker A: I think that's what I had for 112, 113. I'll try to make this a little bit quicker. We're going to go into Old Testament and we're going to dive into Isaiah. I love Isaiah here. We get a little bit of snippet in it. I don't think I'm going to dive too deep into it right now. Just getting through this. And 1:14 just mentioned something there. Verse one, the question is asked. So this is like that question and answers that was given earlier, that revelation, Section 77, when he's asking these questions about the Book of Revelation. This is answering questions About Isaiah, verse 1. Who is the stem of Jesse spoken of in the first, second, third, fourth, fifth verses of the 11th chapter of Isaiah? And a stem, you have to understand a stem is this sprout, this shoot, this branch that is coming up from Jesse. So you can almost think. I mean, just understanding that language and that visualization. If Jesse is the roots, and you have to remember, who is Jesse? Jesse is King David's father. So it means somebody who is going to be from the line of Jesse, David, the Davidic line is who they're speaking of. And with that in mind, you can see it in verse 2. Verily, thus saith the Lord, it is Christ. And that's why it was so important in the New Testament when you read. And they say, here is the genealogy. And it goes from King David all the way down into where Christ is born. Even though he wasn't physically a son of Joseph, he still has this Davidic descent, even through Mary in this line. Right. And so it puts in context. The story of the Old Testament is Christ's roots. And it is a story of his family tree and how he gets to be where he is. And we look at David not being perfect. We look at this line, Judah and Tamar, we look at all of these weird things that are happening in the Old Testament that we get to dive into next year, which we are super excited. Yeah. And it's showing that perfection can come from imperfection, that even though we might write ourselves off or think that we've screwed up David and Bathsheba, yet from that line, what's produced Christ, we can get there. That's the message of hope that the Old Testament brings us in connection with the stem of Jesse. So it's an excellent question. And that's kind of how this goes it talks about the root of Jesse, the stem of Jesse, and some of the understanding to Isaiah. I'm sorry, I'm passing through this kind of quick. I think we're running close to out of time. Right, so let me just go to 1:14 and finish this up. Verse 2. For verily, thus saith the Lord that inasmuch as there are those among you who deny my name, others shall be planted in their stead. And that was a big theme back then in Joseph Smith's day when people would say, if I were to leave the church, this church would fall apart. And when you're doing that, I've been a part of a lot of startups. In a startup company you wear a lot of hats and you're doing a lot of different roles and you feel like the success of the company rests on your shoulders, like you're doing so much for it and if you were to leave that all of that's going to fall. And that's how people were feeling in the early days of the church. Here's a startup religion and these people are doing so much and everything's resting on their shoulders and we might feel like, hey, the success of this church rests on me. It's good to be engaged, it's good to be making a difference. But it's also good to remember that this is God's church, not our church. It's not all resting on our soldiers shoulders. We have a wonderful opportunity to participate in this, to be a part of it and to move the dial, to push the work and make this rock fill the earth. But if ultimately we decide not to, God's work isn't foiled. He will find someone else willing and eager and happy to fill that role and take that work and move it without us. So we need to be grateful for the opportunities that we have and not feel like the whole world rests on us and that we are so important. This is at the end of the day, still not our church. [01:01:14] Speaker B: I did some, I do some work with some, you know, some fairly successful artists in some different genres and stuff like that. I remember I had a meeting one time with one of them, one of the artists who's a good friend of mine and I just remember he was just like, hey, you know, this train's moving with or without you on it. Do you want to be on this train? I was like, yes. But like, it's funny because every time I do, I remember this was, you know, we used to read these scriptures about how the Lord, the Lord is that train's moving, whether the work's moving forward with or without you, partaking of the blessings and enjoying the journey with him, you know, and it's funny when you read that, I always just think, I think of that anecdote that this train's moving. The train was going to move with or without, you know, And I remember even, I mean, even God told Joseph Smith that he's just like, you don't think I can find somebody else? You know, and it's like, yeah, I know you can. So sorry and forgive me and let me try to be better next time, right? Yep, this train's moving. The train's going to move with or without you on it. [01:02:25] Speaker A: And it's wonderful to be a part of it. [01:02:27] Speaker B: And I can just say, I can attest that both in this temporal situation that I'm referring to and in the bigger picture, it's more fun to be on the train than not on the train. I'll just throw that out there. [01:02:39] Speaker A: Absolutely. [01:02:40] Speaker B: It's better to be on the train. [01:02:43] Speaker A: Keep that train rolling. All right, that's. That's it. That's all I got. [01:02:48] Speaker B: Love it. I love it. I love it. That was a fun little discussion. Sorry. For any of you out there that just love Tony Robbins. I mean, I don't, but to each their own. And for any of those, please don't be offended. Those of you that love reading the self help books, what I would say is that I hope that you would realize that you have within you anything that you ever need to be awesome. And you are already awesome. And you are already born to be amazing and successful and hopefully you don't feel like you ever have to rely on Tony Robbins to tell you that you, to tell you what you need to do to do that. [01:03:27] Speaker A: It does say, seek your wisdom from the best books and be wise as serpents. So when you're out there looking for. [01:03:33] Speaker B: That'S the best way. Just be wise as serpents. That's it. [01:03:35] Speaker A: When you're out there looking for what's going to make you happy. Wizard of Oz, Right? What lesson did Dorothy learn? [01:03:43] Speaker B: A lot of lessons. First of all, don't trust flying monkeys. [01:03:46] Speaker A: It's a good lesson to learn. [01:03:48] Speaker B: All right, what are we talking about next week? [01:03:51] Speaker A: Next week is doctrine and covenants 115 through 120. His sacrifice shall be more sacred unto me than his increase. [01:03:59] Speaker B: Awesome. Awesome. All right, until next week. See ya. [01:04:09] Speaker A: Sa.