D&C 102 - 105 (2020 repost)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the Add On Education Network. The podcast where we explore the weekly Come follow me discussion and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here in the studio with my friend and this show's producer, Nate. What is up, Pifer? [00:00:31] Speaker B: What is up? What is up? [00:00:33] Speaker A: How you doing, Nate? [00:00:35] Speaker B: Great, man. [00:00:36] Speaker A: Nice recording this. [00:00:39] Speaker B: A little late this week, but what do you do? [00:00:41] Speaker A: Better late than never. [00:00:42] Speaker B: Better late than never. We want to be consistent. We're getting it to you. [00:00:45] Speaker A: There we go. So in this section, we're going to be covering Doctrine Covenants 102 through 105. But before we dive into this section, there's a few things I think I wanted to just wrap up, hit and talk about. One, there was a question asked last week, what does it mean in doctrine and Covenants 95? 4 where it says that I may proceed to bring, to pass my act, my strange act, and perform my work, my strange work, that men may discern between the righteous and the wicked, saith your God. And the question was, why is he calling his work a strange work? And there were some thoughts there. You know, LDS people tend to be really strange or we're just kind of weirdos. I don't think that's. I don't think that's what he was hitting on. So go ahead. [00:01:33] Speaker B: That's what you were suggesting. I was like, I don't know if that's what he meant. [00:01:37] Speaker A: No, yeah, I don't. I don't think so either. It's a direct quote from Isaiah 28:21. In Isaiah 28:21, he's talking about a strange act and a strange work. So I went back to the Old Testament. I was reading this verse in Hebrew, and the word strange comes from the Hebrew zur, which means to turn aside. And particularly it comes to mean strange because you have to turn aside for lodging or turn aside for housing. As you're traveling, you're looking for somewhere to stay. So it applies to a foreigner or a stranger. As an active participle, this word is used to refer to an adulterer in the sense that they are turning aside from their house, they're turning aside from their spouse, their partner, into a relationship with someone else is how this is used, which I think it's interesting because Israel has always been referred to as the Lord's wife and this relationship. And when Israel is unfaithful, they say she is playing the harlot or she is playing the whore in the sense that she is Turning aside and sleeping with strange men or worshiping strange gods. And so when the Lord is saying, this is my strange act, it is his act of turning aside an apostate people and bringing them from their worshiping of other gods, their adulterous relationship with other gods, and turning them aside to come back to him to be part of his house. This idea of this wedding feast. So his strange act has nothing to do with Latter Day Saints being weird about drinking a Coke. It has more to do with the Lord is turning aside Israel back to being faithful with him, which is very strange indeed. Looking at your ancient cultures, the idea that if a woman was unfaithful or a partner was. It was kind of a death sentence. That was the end of it, right? There is none of this forgiveness. I will take them back. But the Lord talks about this all the time. This idea that he will take Israel back, they will be his bride and they will have this wedding feast. And this relationship was always meant to be. [00:03:53] Speaker B: So two questions. [00:03:54] Speaker A: Yes. [00:03:55] Speaker B: Does this have anything to do with like the strangers in a strange land situation in the New Testament? Wasn't it. Wasn't it the. I'm trying to remember if it was. Was it Abraham? [00:04:08] Speaker A: Huh? Strangers in a strange. [00:04:11] Speaker B: Landed to be strange. A stranger in a strange land. I'm just wondering if that has anything to do with that. And if. And if not, or if it's going to take too long to talk about. We don't need to. But I'm just wondering if there's any direct. Like what, what that had to do with that. [00:04:23] Speaker A: I think so, because he left his dad's house. He was in the city of Ur, right? The Chaldeans. [00:04:29] Speaker B: Yes. [00:04:30] Speaker A: So he leaves this Babylonia, if you will, to come into the Canaanites. And he is a stranger in a strange land. But he has promised this inheritance. And as soon as he has given this inheritance, I mean, what happens down the road? They now have to go down to Egypt, where they are strangers in a strange land. This idea that they are never quite comfortable where they are at, that they are turning aside in these areas that are along the way, but not there yet. That idea of turning aside to be strange and we are headed towards a promised land. This idea of paradise, paradise restored, this idea of getting back to being with God is our ultimate destination. This land of promise being a symbol of something greater, a symbol of our return to heaven, our return to the presence of God. In the meantime, where your sojourners here on earth, we're traveling and this is our way. This is our. We're not quite comfortable. We're not home. We're not there yet. We're. We're pushing for when we get to. To that paradise. Awesome. [00:05:35] Speaker B: And then second question is, is that you said, did you say that it was a, like a parallel participle? What did you say? [00:05:43] Speaker A: Active participle. [00:05:44] Speaker B: Active. Is there a dangling participle as part of this too, or No, I don't. [00:05:49] Speaker A: Think there was any dangling participles there. [00:05:51] Speaker B: Cool. Let's move on. [00:05:52] Speaker A: All right. Thank you for asking. All right. There's a few things I wanted to talk about last week that we just didn't quite run into or have enough time. And I'm just going to slowly insert them. Quickly insert them. I'm just going to insert them right here at the beginning. The one being. I thought it was fascinating. In the sections from last week, it said, the hearts of the fathers shall turn to, or the hearts of the children shall turn to the fathers. This is a verse we're very familiar with in the Restoration. It's a quoting from Malachi and Moroni spoke it to Joseph Smith when he came and visited him in a vision. We see it in the Book of Mormon. We see it throughout Doctrine and Covenants. It's an idea that's very prevalent in our culture today in Latter Day Saints, this idea of genealogy that we're turning the hearts of the children to the fathers through genealogy work. But here in this section in Doctrine and Covenants, Joseph Smith defined it very differently than what we typically do. He says, or in other words, that the Jews may turn to the words of the prophets. And so the hearts of the children turning to the fathers was this idea that modern Israel would turn back to the words of the prophets in the Bible. Because throughout the time in the Bible, at the time the prophets were speaking, they were very unpopular at times. They were rejected. And you cast out the prophets, you stoned them, you slayed them, and you said, oh, if it was my day, I wouldn't have done that. And yet they put Jesus to death. Right. And this idea that Israel is constantly rejecting the people that went out to lead them. But the hearts of the children turning to the fathers, in a sense is today Israel is going to be turning to the prophets in the Old Testament, the prophets in the New Testament, the writings, and not reject them, but embrace their words, love their words. And a big part of that is that today Israel will be studying the Bible, studying the Scriptures and loving them. Our hearts will turn to our fathers in the sense of loving and appreciating the words that are written in Scripture. [00:08:06] Speaker B: Cool. That's great. [00:08:08] Speaker A: Okay. And then the other thing we were talking about, the parable of the. The Lord's vineyard that he had planted, that's going to actually play a prominent role in today. So we will roll into that. But that was the last thing I just wanted to talk about. So I'll put that on pause as we dive into 102, and then we'll see that with Zion's camp in 104. Excuse me, 103 and 105. So kicking us off Doctrine Covenant, Section 102. This is the beginning of the High Council. The first High Council is formed and. And the purpose of the High Council is established to settle important difficulties. The president of the Church is. It says here that the president of the Church is appointed by Revelation, and he's got his two counselors. And then you've got this quorum of the 12 that acts as a standing high council. But then also you have obviously, high councils throughout, distributed in the sense that you have three presidents or the stake presidency, and. And 12 high priests that work as a high council. And they said that the president, speaking of the president of the Church, the prophet, they say, is appointed by Revelation. And I thought that was an important point to bring out, because we. See. I don't know. I don't know where I'm going with this. The idea when a president, a prophet, dies and they replace him, we take the senior apostle and the other apostles lay their hands and anoint him. [00:09:33] Speaker B: And. [00:09:33] Speaker A: And an apostle is called by Revelation, and it would make sense that they are called. They are put in there, and it is left up to the Lord's work to find out who the next one is. It is not that we have these elections. It is not that we are holding this. We are going to decide who it is. And that is actually going to be a theme throughout this discussion on the High Council is the idea that we are not trying to influence or control this. We are going to leave that up to God as much as possible. And makes you wish some other things were maybe run this way as we were talking last week. But let's go into this High Council, because as it talks about it, verse 12, it says it shall be the duty of the 12 counselors to cast lots by numbers and thereby ascertain who of the twelve shall speak first. [00:10:22] Speaker B: Oh, interesting. [00:10:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Casting lots of. And there are some scholars that think that the Urim and Thummim was like a Magic 8 ball where it would answer yes or no questions and you would ask a question and then shake the Urim and Thummim and kind of roll it out there and then it would say yes or no. I don't think that's the Urim and thummim. We look at Urim and Thummim in modern day revelation. It gives us different context. Just saying that. There are some scholars that have taken that because there is a strong. How do I say this? Throughout the ancient world, the idea of chance or drawing lots was the way that God would reveal his will to people because people could not influence the outcomes. If you take you out of the equation so you're not deciding anymore, then the inference is God will make that decision for you. [00:11:23] Speaker B: Yeah, it must have been God's will that they shook out like this. [00:11:27] Speaker A: Yes. And so go back to Nephi when they draw lots to decide who is going to go in and get the plates and the lot falls on the oldest, the firstborn layman to go and see what he's going to do. God is going to give him the chance as the firstborn to earn that title, to earn that position, to show that he's the firstborn. And when he doesn't follow through, he's not successful. Ultimately, Nephi steps up and kind of earns that firstborn. He takes care of, takes matters in his own hands and makes it happen. But they start by this idea of drawing lots to see who's going to go, who's not. And this idea that chance, where you're not influencing it, is allowing space for God to exist. And it takes me almost the idea of gambling. If gambling is a game of chance and a game of who knows, right? Just depends. You're drawing lots almost, in a sense. Is that God's game? And if so, why is God so hard on gambling? If we're saying this is God's deal, Right. [00:12:35] Speaker B: I love gambling. [00:12:37] Speaker A: So, so I. [00:12:40] Speaker B: You're giving me a good excuse now. The next time we cruise the face to be like, hey, look, all of the ancient. Jason told me all of the ancient people used to cast lots all the time. And it was totally like God's will, man. In fact, we got to play this slot machine in this beat up gas station. [00:12:56] Speaker A: What does it mean to be lucky? Where does luck come from? [00:13:00] Speaker B: I don't know, but heaven knows I have it. [00:13:04] Speaker A: A Greek God. [00:13:06] Speaker B: Okay. [00:13:07] Speaker A: And fortune, where does fortune? You're fortunate, that's good fortune. Where does that come from? [00:13:12] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:13:12] Speaker A: Roman God. [00:13:13] Speaker B: Okay. [00:13:14] Speaker A: So this idea, I mean, we even say it all the time to be lucky, really means that the God, luck is blessing. You have favor with the God. [00:13:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:24] Speaker A: If you say you're fortunate, then you're saying you have favor with the God of fortune. [00:13:31] Speaker B: Which would be solid, by the way, if you also love gambling. [00:13:36] Speaker A: Which would be solid if you believed in paganism. [00:13:38] Speaker B: Okay, whatever, man. Details, details. [00:13:41] Speaker A: So it's almost like gambling, you're taking God's game. Not God's game. I shouldn't say it as game, but this idea of deciding by chance, deciding lot, drawing lots, leaving the decision to God, but instead, it's almost like you're worshiping the God of luck or you're worshiping the God of fortune. You're worshiping because if God's saying, I don't want you to be playing with. With my power to decide or who's going to, and you're taking that in your own hands to try to benefit not other people, but try to benefit yourself. [00:14:14] Speaker B: That's a good point. [00:14:17] Speaker A: It's almost like idolatry. [00:14:19] Speaker B: Dang it, dude. Don't come in Sunday morning trying to make me feel bad for my compulsive gambling and total addiction to gambling that I have to just fight every single time I'm driving through Vegas on the way down to la. [00:14:37] Speaker A: Fight it, Nate. Fight it. [00:14:38] Speaker B: I do. I fight it. I fight it. But I will say, the last time I won money gambling, I used it to help pay for gas for the tour that I was on. So it wasn't just for my benefit. You know, it helped kind of everybody else out for a minute. Yeah, this is just justification. I'm not. Don't listen to anything I'm saying right now, Jason. I'm just trying to make myself feel better. [00:15:03] Speaker A: Well, I just think it is interesting you've got this idea that God is saying chance the lots. That's where you're not controlling it. And whether God is actively influencing the outcome, I don't know. That's the case. As much as you're pulling yourself out of the decision, you're not going to influence the outcome. And in this case, when you're talking about high counsel, you're talking about deciding legal matters. [00:15:29] Speaker B: But didn't it say, though, that it just decided who spoke first? [00:15:33] Speaker A: It does decide who speaks first. [00:15:35] Speaker B: So it's not necessarily. It's not like they're saying, well, what should happen with this person? And they're like, rolling some dice and being right. Well, the bones say that this is what it is. They're only doing that just to decide who speaks first. [00:15:46] Speaker A: Yes. [00:15:46] Speaker B: Am I misunderstanding this? [00:15:47] Speaker A: No, you're 100% right. [00:15:48] Speaker B: Because still they need to be relying on, like, inspiration to know the decisions that they need to be making to resolve things, I'm assuming. [00:15:55] Speaker A: Yeah. It's not like Monty Python and we're going to see if she weighs less than a duck, Right? We're not going that far. The Lord's not saying let's decide their fate and flip a coin and see whether or not we should stone something. [00:16:09] Speaker B: I was just making sure we were being clear about that. Because again, like you said, though, in the ancient times, you read about them casting lots all the time. But that's to, like, decide. That's to, like, break a tie or a decision or to make a decision. And I just want to make sure that we're not saying that that's what the early apostles were doing. [00:16:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's interesting because I like that you mentioned that this is just because there's a part that God plays in this or a part that we do not play in this maybe is a better way of stating that. Doesn't mean that we don't play a part at all. Right. Just the casting of the lots, decide who speaks first. And just in a legal proceeding, you don't want to say the cards are stacked in one favor or another, where we are going to work this to the advantage, that we want these people to speak so that the person representing the accused has an advantage, or the person representing the church has an advantage, or whatever the case may be, on how you draw those lines. We are not stacking the deck. We are not trying to prove one thing or another. We want to be fair about this. We want to take our prejudices out of this and try to. To remove us as much as possible and finding out how to best handle this in a fair sort of way. So they would. And it's interesting how this works out. You've got, if it's a very simple case, two people speaking up to. If it's a very complicated case, six people. And you draw these lines, half of them are going to be representing or the accused. Well, you have. I mean, you have two parties. The one that's been offended or the one that's kind of a victim versus the one that's caused the offense. And you want to make sure you fairly represent them. And it goes through the whole appellate process. How do you appeal it? There's a lot of order and sense to this. And just because you have one Part that you're saying, we don't want to be involved in this doesn't mean that you're excused entirely. Like you say, the casting of the lots isn't to decide the fate. You still need to be involved in and figure out and do the best you can to represent the parties and to discuss it and make sure that everybody is in agreement with how it should be handled. All right. That's a lot of. Of discussion for not a lot of content. Let's, let's roll into Zion's camp next. Or yeah, they do have a little bit of a side note on measure here. Measure plays a role where it says, I will pour out my wrath without measurement, that they might fill up the measure of their iniquities, that their cup may be full. We've talked enough about measure, though, that I just thought it was interesting to point that out. Let's. Let's go into Zion's camp. So in order to understand the context of Zion's camp, I'm going to step back into the parable last week, just, just read it again real quickly. And then we're going to go to Sidney Sperry's interpretation of the parable, and then we're going to talk about the camp, how it went, how, how that played out, and see what we can learn from there and probably just wrap up at that point. Okay, so here we go. Verse 43. Going back to section I believe it was 101. It was 101. And now I show unto you a parable that you may know my will concerning the redemption of Zion. A certain nobleman had a spot of land very choice, and he said unto his servants, go ye unto my vineyard, even unto the very choice piece of land, and plant 12 olive trees and set a watchman round about them, and build a tower, that one may overlook the land round about to be a watchman upon the tower, that mine olive trees might not be broken down. And when the enemy shall come to spoil and take upon themselves the fruit of my vineyard. Now the servant of the nobleman went and did as the Lord commanded them, and planted the olive tree, and built a hedge round about, and set watchmen and began to build a tower. And while they were yet laying the foundation thereof, they began to say among themselves, where? And what need hath my lord for this tower? And consulting for a long time people for a long time, saying among themselves, what need hath my lord of this tower? Seeing this is a time of peace, might not this money be given to the exchangers? For there is no need for these things. And while they were yet at variance with one another, they became very slothful. And they hearkened not to the commandments of their lord. And the enemy came by night and broke down the hedge. And the servants of the noblemen arose and were affrighted and fled, and. And the enemy destroyed their works and broke down the olive trees. Now behold, the nobleman, the lord of the vineyard called upon his servants and said unto them, why, what is the cause of this great evil? Ought ye not to have done as I commanded you? And after ye had planted the vineyard and had built the hedge round about and set watchmen upon the walls thereof, built the tower also, and set a watchman upon the tower and watched for my vineyard, and not have fallen asleep, lest the enemy should come upon you. And behold, the watchman of the tower would have seen the enemy while he was yet afar off. And then ye could have made ready and kept the enemy from breaking down the hedge thereof and saved my vineyard from the hands of the destroyer. And the Lord of the vineyard said unto one of his servants, go and gather together the residue of my servants and take all the strength of mine house, which are my warriors, my young men, and they that are middle aged also among all my servants, who are the strength of mine house, save only those whom I have appointed to tarry. And go ye straightway into the land of my vineyard and redeem my vineyard, for it is mine, I have bought it with money. Therefore get ye straightway unto my land, break down the walls of mine enemies and throw down their tower and scatter their watchmen. And inasmuch as they are gathered together against you, avenge me of mine enemies, that by and by I may come with the residue of mine house and possess the land. And the servant said unto the Lord, when shall these things be? And he said unto his servant, when I will go ye straightway and do all whatsoever I have commanded you. And this shall be my seal and a blessing upon you, a faithful and wise steward in the midst of my house, a ruler in my kingdom. And the servant went straightway and did all things, whichever the Lord commanded him. And after many days all things were fulfilled. So that's the parable, the context. This parable. He's saying, this is how I. I want to frame the redemption of Zion. And so I am bringing this back as we talk about Zion's camp. Because In Doctrine Covenants 103, the Lord is going to command them to go and redeem his people. He says, go and break down Their towers. Go and redeem Zion. And the context again. Jackson County, Missouri. The Lord is commanding them. This is Zion. Build up the lands. It is not going to be redeemed by blood, but by purchase. Go out and purchase all of these lands. So they buy their property. They buy the property for the temple, the temple lot. They buy their houses, they buy the printing press. And then what happens? The enemies in the land roundabout go and destroy the printing press. Chase them out of the lands and tell them you can't live here anymore. Even though they've bought the property, even though they have deeds to it, even though they're entitled to it, they're chased out of their own lands. And so the Lord is saying, okay, go and redeem it. So sorry, a lot of reading in this one. I'm going to read Sidney Sperry's interpretation of this parable. It would seem that the parable is to be interpreted in this. The nobleman is the Lord, whose choice land in his vineyard is Zion in Missouri. The places where the saints live in Zion are the olive trees. The servants are the Latter Day Saint settlers, and the watchmen are their officers in the church. While yet building in Zion, they became at variance with each other and do not build the tower or temple. The site which had been dedicated as early as August 3, 1831. So here we are, 1834, three years later. The site's been dedicated for three years and they did not build a temple. Keep going. Had they built it as directed, it would have been a spiritual refuge for them. For from it the Lord's watchman could have seen by revelation the movements of the enemy from afar. This foreknowledge would have saved them and their hard work when the enemy made his assault. But the saints in Missouri were slothful, lax and asleep. The enemy came, and the Missouri persecution were the result. The Lord's people were scattered and much of their labors wasted. The Almighty rebuked his people, as we have already seen. But he commanded one of his servants, Joseph Smith, to gather the strength of mine house and rescue his lands and possessions gathered against them. Subsequently, the prophet and his brethren in the famous Zion's camp did go to Missouri in 1834 in an attempt to carry out the terms of the parable. Before they went, additional revelation was received concerning the redemption of Zion. The brother were instructed to buy to try and buy land in Missouri, not to use force. And if the enemy came against them, they were to bring a curse upon them. Zion was not redeemed at that time. But we look at it in the not too distant future. Verily it will be redeemed when the Lord wills it. So that was Sidney Sperry's interpretation of the parable. [00:25:07] Speaker B: Okay. [00:25:10] Speaker A: So the revelation is, go out, redeem my people. Sidney Sperry, when he says this, he kind of cast the saints in Missouri in kind of a harsh light. And Doctrine Covenants is going to kind of do the same thing. There is a little bit of context for why he would say that. The Lord says a lot of the reason why they were getting persecuted, a lot of the reason why they were being chastened was part because the Lord was waiting for them to fill the cup, the wicked people to fill their cup of measure until the Lord was going to punish them. But in the other part because the saints were not righteous in all that they were supposed to do. But going into verse 30, the commandment that the Lord gives in section 103 for them to go and form this camp, it says, until they have obtained companies to go up unto the land of Zion by tens or by twenties, or by fifties, or by an hundred, until they have obtained to the number of 500 of the strength of my house. Behold, this is my will. So the Lord is saying, raise an army of 500 men from the strength of my house. And to put that number in context, the Latter Day Saint population at this time is 4300. And an average stake today is anywhere from 3000 to 5000. So if you think about your stake, if it's a typical stake, this is about an average size of a stake. So think in your stake, you're asking for 500 volunteers of men middle aged, maybe old, but not terribly too old, just men. 500 men volunteering from a stake. That's what the Lord's asking. But then get this, this is my will. Ask and ye shall receive. But men do not always do my will. So the Lord says, this is what I want. But men aren't always obedient. Therefore, because men won't always do my will. If you cannot obtain 500, seek diligently that peradventure you might obtain 300. And if you cannot obtain 300, seek diligently that peradventure YOU may obtain 100. But verily I say unto you a commandment I give unto you, that you shall not go up unto Zion until you have obtained a hundred of the strength of my house to go up with you to the land of Zion. What does that sound like? Per adventure, you can't get 500, get 300. [00:27:41] Speaker B: Do you want to know what it sounds like to me? [00:27:42] Speaker A: What does it sound like to you? [00:27:43] Speaker B: Just go do your best, buddy. [00:27:45] Speaker A: Just go do your best. [00:27:47] Speaker B: Get what you can, man. [00:27:49] Speaker A: You know what it sounds like to me, Abraham? When the angels come and say, we're going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. And he says, well, what if peradventure, I find, like, 100 good people? Yeah, 100 good people. And they're like, okay, we'll save it for 100 per adventure. [00:28:07] Speaker B: What about one good person? [00:28:09] Speaker A: One good person. So the Lord's saying, Yeah, I want 500. But I know you. You're not going to get 500. Maybe you get 300. [00:28:19] Speaker B: That's what I'm saying, man. [00:28:20] Speaker A: But I know you. [00:28:21] Speaker B: It's just the Lord telling Joseph Smith, like, look, I know I'm giving you a hard job. And to be totally honest with you, like I told Nephi, I won't tell you to do anything that I know you can't do. And in this, I know you can't do what I really want you to do. So just go do your best, bud. Go get a hundred people, man. [00:28:38] Speaker A: And that per adventure, it's almost like, per adventure, I find only five righteous men. It's this idea that I know these people are not willing. I know these people are not doing per adventure, I can only find a hundred willing people. That, to me, kind of describes the same idea, concept that Sidney Sperry is saying that at this time, the church and the Lord says he is upset not at individuals, but the church as a whole. And when he says the church of the whole, he says, not Joseph Smith as a prophet, not my leaders, but as a whole. When you look at the people, how come I can't get 500 out of you to come up? How come I can't get 500 to rally to the cause? So how many does he actually get? And he barely gets 100. And that might even include 25 women and children that went with them. It was anything he could DO to get 100 volunteers to even start. So if the prophet today were to say, I've had enough with these people, we are going to form an armed resistance and we are going in there to raise heck. How many people would stand with the prophet today? [00:30:03] Speaker B: Wait, raise heck? As far as what? [00:30:06] Speaker A: As far as we are going to go fight injustice. [00:30:12] Speaker B: Against, like, a tyrannical government? [00:30:14] Speaker A: Against. It could be a tyrannical government. I guess in this case it was more mob violence. [00:30:20] Speaker B: Okay, so mob violence against. I mean, just basically injustice against the Saints, Right. [00:30:26] Speaker A: Injustice against the Saints. So say if a government were to require something that was not right, and they said, look, you can't be pushing us around anymore. The prophet says, I need some armed men willing to come and fight. I don't think finding 500 men would be a problem. [00:30:43] Speaker B: How many people did we decide live in the state of Utah? [00:30:47] Speaker A: 3 million round. [00:30:49] Speaker B: I think that there would be 11 million people because I think that you would also have Texas, Florida, probably the majority of Idaho, Arizona, Nevada, maybe a little bit of New Mexico, Oklahoma, Kansas, and pretty much every other Midwest state all going, wait, I hear that. I hear that the Mormons are taking up their ars that they've been stockpiling for whatever. Well, good news. I've also been stockpiling ammo for the last 20 years for just this moment. That's what I think would happen. [00:31:28] Speaker A: I think. I think you're right. I think a lot of people. [00:31:30] Speaker B: Finding 500 people would be too hard, Jason. [00:31:33] Speaker A: I. I think there's a lot of people that would be like, I've waited my whole life for this moment. Right. [00:31:40] Speaker B: The thing is, is they kept telling themselves that it was for the zombie apocalypse, but deep down they knew that there was never going to be any such thing as a zombie apocalypse. And this would be the chance that like, their heart would be set aflutter. They have been waiting for this their whole life, Jason. [00:31:56] Speaker A: We would have a lot of people, not necessarily members of the church. [00:31:59] Speaker B: That's exactly. That's what I'm saying. I don't think it has anything to do with the church at that point. [00:32:02] Speaker A: Dude, let's go get your land back. Let's. [00:32:05] Speaker B: Let's go. [00:32:08] Speaker A: Dude. [00:32:08] Speaker B: Where do I sign up for this, by the way? Jason? [00:32:12] Speaker A: So yet at the same time, I would say this. How many moves have you been a part of, Nate, where the elders quorum president reaches out and asks you to help or whatnot and you are the only one there, or there's only a. [00:32:29] Speaker B: Couple people there, dude, because those are boring. Boring. [00:32:38] Speaker A: I need. How many times is the elders corn president standing up and saying, I need 20 men. 20 men to help me out with this. But per adventure, I can't find 20. [00:32:49] Speaker B: Here's the thing, man. You've just. [00:32:50] Speaker A: I need five. [00:32:51] Speaker B: Okay, here's the thing, dude. [00:32:53] Speaker A: Per adventure. [00:32:54] Speaker B: Per adventure for each menture. Listen to this. Per adventure, all you've done is now just told me exactly what every elders quorum president ever needs to hear. Dude, if you need somebody to help them move, all you need to say is that there is tyranny and injustice involved and that they get to come armed to the teeth. That's all you got to tell them. [00:33:16] Speaker A: Just say, we're redeeming the land. [00:33:18] Speaker B: We're redeeming the land of this person. That's exactly right. [00:33:21] Speaker A: They bought this house and we're going to do everything we can to get them into their house. [00:33:26] Speaker B: We have this person moving in they paid for with their own money. It's an injustice that they would have to do this by themselves. You never know if the zombies might be around or a tyrannical government. So come armed to the teeth and we're moving these dudes in. You would have. You would have 2,000 people show up. [00:33:42] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. They would escort every piece of luggage brought into that house with an armed escort. [00:33:47] Speaker B: With an armed escort. And they. With like, the sunglasses and the freaking camo, like bandanas, dude. This is fantastic. Any elders, corn presidents listening to this right now? [00:33:59] Speaker A: We just cracked the code if you need some volunteers. [00:34:03] Speaker B: We just cracked the code for finding people. Look, you and I have both had to do this assignment in the past. And yes, I know what you mean. I wish I would have had this valuable information then. [00:34:14] Speaker A: If you would like to bring your Rambo knife or architecture, we have somebody in the ward that needs to help move their stuff. [00:34:21] Speaker B: Bring your bazookas. [00:34:26] Speaker A: So when we look at this and the Lord says, I will start blessing you and prosper you as long as you are obedient. Go get me 500 men. And you are like, I have 100 people that are thinking about it. And then we say, what happened with Zion's camp? Why didn't that work? And Joseph Smith is the one that gets the blame. Like, this is where Joseph Smith, in my eyes, is the best example of a modern day Moses. Because Moses, go and get my people and bring them out. A people that, by the way, as soon as he brings them out, say, you know, we had it better in Egypt when we were eating, like, all of the food. Why did you have to go screw things up and try to pull us out? Like, he was constantly fighting with the people he was supposed to be leading to try to get them motivated, to believe, to follow, to do what they needed to do. It was hard. And Joseph saying, okay, here's what we're going to do. You've been waiting for this for a long time. These injustices are happening. Let's go. I need 500, maybe 100 show up with some women and children. Okay, where are these people that were wanting to go where is the people that were calling for grievance? And part of the problem with Zion's camp is you have two groups of people. You have these ones that are seriously devoted and willing to do whatever the Lord asks them to do, who sign up right away and say, I'm with you, Joseph. And from here, you. You get these leaders that are called to the apostleship, that are called to guide the church and to take them as they move forward. But then you also have these violent craving people, like Sylvester. When Joseph Smith brought his guard dog with him, and his dog, protecting him, was barking at Sylvester. And Sylvester said, I'm going to kill your dog. And Joseph Smith says, you kill my dog and I'm going to whip you. And he says, if you whip me, then I'm going to defend myself. And here he is, fisticuffs with the prophet and the prophet. They're staring each other down in this awkward moment. And finally the prophet stops, walks away and says, what's with the spirit of this camp? We are all like animals. You've got these people that are ready to escalate violence at the drop of a hair, these people that would join in with these other people. And maybe this is why Gideon, when he has his army, says, you know what? There's too many people here. We are going to start filtering out anyone that is not this loyal core group of people so that God can do a miracle. So you have this interesting mix, but not only do you have this resistance, this lack of interest in doing the Lord's will from the people that the prophet is supposed to be leading, similar to Moses and Israel. But Joseph Smith reaches out to Governor Dunklund, the governor of Missouri, and says, this is what's happened. We bought the temple lot, we bought these houses. We bought the press. People came and destroyed the press. They've taken us, kicked us out of the lands. They've kicked our people out. They've treated them bad. We want to go in there and reclaim our property, what's legally and rightfully ours. Will the state stand by us? And the state says, absolutely. Duncan says, I will raise the militia and we will go in with you and we will restore you to your lands. So an army of 500 all of a sudden isn't quite as significant. If you have the entire state militia on your side, who's going to meet you in Jackson county and going to restore you to your property and make sure everyone kind of falls in line and understands that the state is siding with the saints? So he takes his 100. He gets to Missouri. And when he gets to Missouri, there's all sorts of saints that are like, yeah, this is our house. This means a lot to us. We'll stand by you. So you get another hundred volunteers. He's got about 230 at this point. And he shows up and the governor says, I changed my mind after all of this. He says, if we were to go in there and put the mob violence down, it could potentially kick off a civil war in the country. And we do not want to deal with the civil war right now. You guys are Christian, God loving people. Why don't you just turn the other cheek? Why don't you be the peacemakers and just sell your lands to whoever and give up and just move out? That was the governor's advice. And this isn't just your house. This is by Revelation, Zion, the Zion that God is going to build and redeem. This meant a lot to the saints. And to have the state not understand that or not care was pretty hurtful. And Joseph Smith again, like Moses, Moses tries to get the people on his side and they're who are you? We don't care. But part of them are rooting for him. He goes back to Pharaoh, Pharaoh, I need my people to go. Pharaoh says, okay, I'll do it. And then he says, never mind, don't. And then here comes another plague. God's going to show his hand and try to do something. And then Pharaoh says, all right, all right, I'll let you go. Nevermind, I'm not going to. And this waffling where you don't have any support from the government that you're working with. You don't have any support from the people you're trying to lead. What makes these men amazing in my eyes, is that going to Moses. Why didn't he just look at the situation and say, you know, I had it pretty good with Jethro. He let me marry his daughter. There's sheep out there. Forget this, I'm gone. Have fun, Israel, enjoy. You guys are meant for each other. [00:40:28] Speaker B: I love that. I'm pretty good with Jethro. [00:40:33] Speaker A: You guys are meant for each other. You deserve each other. Have fun. And at the same time, the saints, a lot of this, they didn't build the temple, they weren't doing what God asked them. And they were kind of ticking their neighbors off when they start rubbing it in and telling their neighbors, go ahead, do what you want, say what you want, but God is going to kick you out of here because this is our land. God said, by revelation that all this, this is ours. So you can say what you want, but God is going to smite you. I mean, how, as neighbors, are you going to react to things like this? There are a lot of weird things happening where Joseph Smith could almost just say, you know what? You guys deserve each other. I am going back to whatever hole I came out of. I am going to enjoy peace for the rest of my life. But these people, Joseph and Moses, were like Christ. These are the leaders that we wish we had in our country today, where they said, I know that this is going to be hell, and I'm going to have it from both ends, from people that hate us on the outside and people that hate us on the inside. Yet God's asked me to do something, and it's more important that I do what God asks me to do. And it's not even just about doing what God asked him to do, because Moses makes that intercessory prayer for Israel where he says, I know you're mad at these people, but if anything, take it out on me and let's help these people. Don't punish these people. I love these people. He stuck in it because he loved so much the people that he was trying to lead, even if they didn't always accept him as leader. And I think that's Joseph, too. And I think it kind of tears at his heartstrings. And he wanted so much to. To bless, to deliver, to establish this Israel. He cared and loved them so much that he was willing to subject himself to that, to willing to go to this march and have everybody questioning him at every move. And he goes. And it's a great experience for a lot of people. They come away with it really well. But not everybody, and even the camp itself had its issues. When the camp's done, the Lord says, never mind, we're not, you know, you did your best to follow. I am going to consecrate your efforts, but we are going to disband the camp. And then what happens to make almost the salt and the wound, the cholera outbreak within the camp itself. People start getting cholera. And Joseph Smith loving this people. He says he goes and puts his hands on the head to cure somebody from the cholera. And as he goes to rebuke the disease, the disease jumps in him. And then he's got cholera, and he's down to his bed almost to the point of death. And he says he learns at that point a valuable lesson, that he can't rebuke a righteous God's judgments. If God says this is going to happen, and he tries to put his will in front of God's for the love of his people. And kind of like Moses, the intercessory prayer, as he tries to do that. And then he gets a feel for. He gets the receiving end of God's justice and kind of learns a valuable lesson at that point as well. But anyways, this is a. It's an interesting time in church history. [00:43:55] Speaker B: It's awesome. [00:43:56] Speaker A: Sorry, I've been rambling a little bit. [00:43:59] Speaker B: Oh, it's great. [00:44:00] Speaker A: Do you have any thoughts on this Zion's camp, or the march or anything that happened? [00:44:04] Speaker B: No. I mean, I'm still just thinking about how we can form an armed militia to currently rise against tyranny if need be, but whatever. No, it's good insight. It's interesting. All right, what else you got? [00:44:20] Speaker A: I think that's about all I got. [00:44:21] Speaker B: Perfect. What are we talking about next week? [00:44:23] Speaker A: Next week we're diving into Doctrine Covenants 106 through 108. The subtitle there in the Come Follow Me manual is to have the heavens open. [00:44:32] Speaker B: Amazing. All right, well, then I guess. Guess we'll see you next week. [00:44:35] Speaker A: All right, see you.