Revelation 1 - 5

[00:00:15] Speaker A: Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the Add on Education Network, the podcast where we take a look at the weekly come follow me discussion and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here in this studio with our friend and this show's producer, Nate Piper. [00:00:31] Speaker B: Hello, My. Hello. [00:00:32] Speaker A: Hello, Nate. [00:00:34] Speaker B: Hello. [00:00:35] Speaker A: How are you? [00:00:36] Speaker B: This we've only got a few episodes left, man. For the year. [00:00:40] Speaker A: For the year. We're about closing it out. And this is the book of Revelation. I think it's always been looming back there. I don't know. I'm excited to get here. [00:00:50] Speaker B: Revelation, you love this one. [00:00:52] Speaker A: I do. [00:00:52] Speaker B: You've been waiting for this one. [00:00:54] Speaker A: I'm excited. [00:00:56] Speaker B: I was very much waiting to get into the Gospels when we were in the Old Testament. [00:01:01] Speaker A: That's because your heart's in the right place. [00:01:03] Speaker B: Oh, my look, you want the end. [00:01:05] Speaker A: Of the I don't. [00:01:08] Speaker B: I do. Please, Jesus, come back. We're ready. Jesus, take the wheel. Jesus, take the wheel. [00:01:19] Speaker A: Also. [00:01:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:20] Speaker A: Just think. I mean, it is this time of the year. Bumpity, bump, bump, bumpity, bump. We have a bump to put in there for an upcoming episode. Not episode, podcast. Whole series. [00:01:35] Speaker B: Yes. We will play that bump at the end of the podcast to remind you, but it's going to be a good one. Inevitable. Art coming january 2024. [00:01:48] Speaker A: Yes. I'm excited for it. [00:01:51] Speaker B: Me, too, man. Dude, I had this discussion the other day, and I have a question. Let me throw this out to you. [00:01:56] Speaker A: Oh, dear. [00:01:57] Speaker B: I know this is not where you wanted to start, but I thought about this the other day, the word reverence or revere. [00:02:04] Speaker A: Okay. [00:02:06] Speaker B: I think that sometimes we use it maybe inappropriately, because maybe we don't understand, but to revere something, it has to be different than just, like, having a high respect for something, right? [00:02:21] Speaker A: It's like worshipping. [00:02:22] Speaker B: That's what I mean. Right. So are you in the camp of it's kind of like God? And that's the end of the list of things that we revere? Because, again, I have a reverence for I would say very few things in my life, but as I was thinking about because the other day, I was just like, I feel like I have a reverence for, obviously, God. I don't know if I would use reverence when it comes to my family, you know what I mean? I don't think I would use that word reverence in that context. But it is interesting because I would use the word reverence when it comes to art or creation, because that, to me, is just so synonymous with God. Right. But I was like, I might need to ask Jason about this. I might need to check myself on this one. [00:03:15] Speaker A: No, I would absolutely use it for that. In fact, I would use it outside of art, even in a respect for life, but also a reverence for things that could take life away. [00:03:28] Speaker B: Oh, interesting. [00:03:29] Speaker A: Right? Because it kind of goes into the same idea terrible and terrific, yet it's the same thing. It inspires terror. Awesome and awful both inspire awe. Right? And it's this idea of fearing God. And it's not fearing, but it is, in a sense of this reverence or this revering of something that's more powerful than you or that could end your life. And in a sense that maybe I have reverence for a rattlesnake, knowing that if I get too close to that thing, it's going to bite, and maybe that's the end of it for me. [00:04:02] Speaker B: Would you use the word reverence in that case? That's my only question, in a sense. [00:04:07] Speaker A: That I try to respect it. I try not to go and stick my hand in it. [00:04:11] Speaker B: I agree with you on do. When I was in California, there was a lesson one time about reverence in Sunday school, and people started listing off, like, my kids, my this, my this, my talents, my stuff. And I remember thinking the whole time, like, man, I don't know, those all. [00:04:30] Speaker A: Feel a little off, too. [00:04:31] Speaker B: It feels a little off for me. Right. And so that's why, again, to me, it's like all and I haven't thought this one through enough yet to make an argument. I'm throwing it out there to you as something to think about, because, again, in a conversation I was having with a friend, explaining to them how I have, for the last year and a half, considered myself a disciple of art just as much as a disciple of God. Because those two things god is the ultimate artist, and what is art other than a tool of communication? Now, that doesn't mean I respect or would revere or it's the process more than it is the actual medium or output. Does that make sense? I revere the process of creation, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. But I don't know if that's exactly how I feel yet. I was just tossing it out there. And the only reason I'm bringing it up now is because what I've loved about this podcast and producing this podcast with Emily and Kirk is in so many of these discussions of the creative process of art, I just find so many parallels to my spirituality. I find so many parallels to how I am trying to be a better friend and neighbor and how I'm trying to be a better husband and father. And all of these things so directly coincide with the processes of creation that it's hard for me to not look at that as a parallel of Godliness at the same time. And so I don't think I felt too bad saying that I revere art, but I think I should have been clear that it's the processes, maybe, that I revere more than anything, because I see in the processes so much. Godliness, yeah, I think you can revere. [00:06:30] Speaker A: The art and the processes and thinking about a powerful storm. Right. Sure, you can respect the processes that come and make that storm happen, but at the same time, to be inspired and to be in the presence of this massive thing that's just creating, it strikes you with awe, it strikes you with reverence, it strikes you with a deep respect for something more profound than you. And I think that's important. Why? God says in the beginning, thou shalt have no other gods before me. Not necessarily saying that there are no other objects of reverence, but maybe nothing that you revere more than what you revere God, but there's still a place for reverencing creation, reverencing art, reverencing things that inspire awe in us and that make us wonder and that oftentimes do point us to God. But at the end, he's the one that we reverence above all of it. It's not to say we can't have it, it's just we reverence them all, but we reverence him more. [00:07:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. I appreciate you letting me take a mini detour to get start with. This is one of the things that I do think a lot of the people that listen to our podcast are really going to enjoy this other podcast because again, yes, it is a dive into art and processes and understanding of the communication, the language that art is. But like me, I just think that there are so many deeper, incredible lessons that you can draw from better understanding creation just through a different medium. [00:08:09] Speaker A: And it's cool to get different perspectives from people that are living it, right? Totally. To gain kind of an appreciation through their eyes. [00:08:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that stuff. All right, what are we talking about tonight? [00:08:19] Speaker A: The book of Revelation. And you know what? There's a few things about the Book of Revelation. This is going to be chapters one through five that I feel like we almost need to kind of address. Correct hit right here at the start. [00:08:31] Speaker B: Let's do it, baby. [00:08:32] Speaker A: And one of those is I often hear revelations, plural instead of revelation. And it's interesting, right, because it is the book of Revelation. And even the introduction, it says the revelation, referring to it as not a collection of revelations that John receives, but a single revelation. And then that's another I just put out another, maybe misnomer in how I even said that often we believe this is the revelation that John receives. This is John's Revelation. And I just called it that. We talk about John being out on the island of Patmos, right, and he receives this revelation. But look again at how this introduces itself. Verse one, the revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave unto him. [00:09:25] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:09:25] Speaker A: Yeah, right. This is a revelation that Christ received, that God gave to him. And then Christ is giving this to John to make known that this is the revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him. So it's kind of interesting, maybe just a few things that we've kind of taken for granted or repeated and not really taken time to think. [00:09:45] Speaker B: That is an important distinction, though. I don't think I've ever even thought about that. So I'm glad you brought that up because that's a different premise. [00:09:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:57] Speaker B: Okay, I'm ready now. [00:09:59] Speaker A: And it's important to note also John right. The setting of this, and legend has it John ended up in the Coliseum in Rome. Things weren't going great for him, as they weren't for most of the other. [00:10:16] Speaker B: Apostles that ended up in the. [00:10:21] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I believe he's the only apostle. I think they say that wasn't martyred, but it's not for lack of trying. Yes, exactly. They say that the Romans had a boiling pot of oil in the Coliseum. They threw John into and for whatever reason, it didn't phase John and they realized they couldn't kill him. So instead of executing him, they exiled him. They sent him out to the Isle of Patmos. And I like the legend. I like the story. I mean, there's some questions to whether or not it happened, what really happened in John's life, but for me, it's just one more validation and going with the idea that John was going to live forever. And not everybody believes that. In fact, most scholars believe that he died somewhere around 98 to 100 Ad. So he had to have been the youngest apostle in order to have lived that long. Unless you believe that John really was promised that he would be able to remain here on the land and things wouldn't be affecting him the same as what he would normal people. Yeah, I think John lived. I side with Doctrine Covenants when Joseph Smith asked what was the fate of John, and he he remained, he stayed here on the earth. And so I think John was out there for a long time, maybe still is. It's interesting. [00:11:52] Speaker B: Old John, old John, that's never a more appropriate the oldest of us all, old John. [00:12:02] Speaker A: And he stops writing around here. This is 98 Ad. For whatever reason, he kind of phases out and we don't hear from him anymore. He's given us the Gospel of John, three epistles and now the Book of Revelation. And this revelation. It's interesting. John's talking with in here. He's going to reference seven churches in Asia and they list them all out by name. And John is out here on this aisle. And it's important to understand that he's in exile for the reason that when Christ appears to him and he's going to talk to him and give him specific guidance and instructions for each of these seven churches, he's going to be calling out some of the churches in both positive ways and negative ways. And Christ is going to say, look, these are some of the things that I like about you. This is something that I have against you, and you better figure it out before I snuff you out. And he literally says snuff you out because he's referring to them almost as like a flame on a candle. And to give this context, john would not be privy to this information if he's in exile on an isle in Patmos. So I feel like for Christ to be able to come into John and say, this is what these people are doing in this church and this is what this people are doing in this church. And for John to send this message out to the various churches and say, hey, I know what's happening even though I'm in exile is going to be the further evidence. It needs to know that this is coming from Jesus Christ, not John. [00:13:38] Speaker B: And this isn't the last book that John wrote, right? This isn't the last writings that we have of John. Like Revelations wasn't the last thing that John wrote. It just made for the better ending of the compilation of books, certainly not. [00:13:52] Speaker A: The last book written in the New Testament, although it's put at the very end of the New Testament. [00:13:57] Speaker B: But didn't John write first and second John after this as well? [00:14:01] Speaker A: I'm not sure on the timeline of. [00:14:03] Speaker B: When he wrote what I think that that's the case, but I'm willing to be wrong about that. [00:14:07] Speaker A: Could be. Very well could be. [00:14:11] Speaker B: It's not like he's getting letters in from a lot of these, like, I mean, what does exile look like at this time? [00:14:16] Speaker A: That's a good question. [00:14:17] Speaker B: I'm not sure because, you know, like Napoleon was in exile and he had like his whole doing pretty good. [00:14:23] Speaker A: He was doing all right and Paul was doing all right in Rome for a while. But I guess that's not exile, that's house arrest. [00:14:30] Speaker B: Because in theory it's like if you're out on the Isle of Patmos, it's going to be hard for people to come in and out of that place without whoever's guarding that, whoever is responsible for your exile without them knowing about it. But I do think that that's a good point to bring up is that you also have to consider the context that if he's talking about very specific things from halfway around the known world at that point, then that's miraculous in and of itself. [00:14:59] Speaker A: And I think it's an important preface to the revelation. As he starts getting into other things, as we're going to be talking about maybe heavier things, of what's going to happen, what's going on, what to expect. To have the context that it's not he himself, that he wouldn't have privy to that information adds validity to understand the rest of it. Understanding that this is coming from God? Not necessarily. John. Which is why I think the introduction is so important too, saying this is the revelation of Jesus Christ from God that he's letting John be aware of. And it's going to begin in a temple like setting and a lot of this is actually going to go through a temple endowment, so to speak. And I'm kind of excited to get into this. Looking at chapter one, for example, in verse ten I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day and heard behind me a great voice as of a trumpet, saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. And what thou seest, write in a book and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia unto Ephesus and Smima. And I'm just going to skip past the names of all these churches right now. And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks. And that's where I want to stop. When you hear somebody saying, I am the first and the last, and he's later going to even say who was alive and died and who was alive again, he's making it very clear that this is Jesus Christ talking to him. And when he turns to look at the Savior, to address the Savior, instead of seeing the Savior, he sees the seven candlesticks, the menorah. The menorah. It's not just some candlestick that everyone keeps in their home. The menorah is housed in the holy place in the temple. That's where it belongs. That's where it is. If you're going to see the menorah, it's because you're in the temple. And so for John, it's almost as if he's being transported to a heavenly temple or it's important to understand the context of where this is taking place. It's a temple experience. Even though the temple at this time has been destroyed, and even though the temple is not in the Isle of Patmos, he is being transported, if you will, to a heavenly temple. It's also important that you're correlating Christ with the menorah, because the menorah was a symbol of the tree of life. You go back we've talked about this in Old Testament, but you go back and you read about this in Exodus and the way it's shaped with the blossoms and the flowers and the knops and the branches, and it was supposed to symbolize a tree. And going into the temple, remember, they had cherubim sewn into the veil itself, and you had to pass through the cherubim and inside is housed a tree, a tree of life. And so this is supposed to embody going back into paradise. It's supposed to be the Garden of Eden. And so here's John in paradise, and he sees this tree, and this tree he's equating with Christ. And this is very reminiscent of what we see. We're going to get into this next year with Lehi's vision when he sees a tree of life. And Nephi wants to see what his father saw, and he asks the man who was with him, the angel, the Spirit, whatever it's going to be, what is the meaning of the tree? And instead of saying, oh, let me tell you all about this tree. The angel instead shows him Mary. He shows him Mary conceiving, and then he sees the birth of the Son of God, and then he asks the question, now do you understand what the tree is? And Nephi gets it. Yes. So God so loved the world that he sent his son. Christ is the tree. And if Christ is this tree of life, then the fruit that he produces is life. And that's the case in the beginning when God said, who shall I send? When Christ said, Here am I. Send me, and volunteered. The fruit of that was the creation, was life, was the ability to be born here on Earth. And when Christ went to the cross and died and resurrected, the fruit of that is that we could all resurrect and live again in two cases. Right? So he is this tree, and what he has volunteered to come and do produces life for all of those who want to partake of it. It's a very fitting image. [00:19:46] Speaker B: Again, you're on a roll. You're saying stuff that's, again, like, I feel like I've heard it before, but it's hitting different. But I love the idea of how do you live forever? And it's through your fruits. Right? It's like that is your creation. And again, I'm connecting this kind of to my earlier point about art and things, right? Eternal life can be in so many different ways, and I love that you're just highlighting even a deeper, more nuanced way that we can already be practicing our eternal life through the same thing of trying to emulate what a tree, a good tree, does, by the way, which is have good roots, whatever. I know this isn't where you're going with, but I'm just saying the symbolism of this is great. As we are disciples of Jesus and we're trying to live his example. I love that the symbolism of a tree is such a strong image of that and that there are so many incredible things that we could probably learn from a tree if we actually took that symbol and went really, really deep with it. And maybe the most important thing is but what does it give? Right? What does it give back? How does it live forever? Right? And it's produced good fruit that can continually be passed on or make a new tree. So, anyways, you're blowing my mind with this. [00:21:29] Speaker A: No, I love that. And the connections that you're making right now. We've talked about this, too. The only way that we can sustain our lives is by taking other life. Right? If I eat something, whether it's bread, they required the harvesting of wheat or the harvesting of an animal, the killing of something in order to sustain myself. But you look at a tree and it's photosynthesis. It's not killing anything. All it's doing is taking light from the sun and converting that into energy to sustain itself. Right? And it's the light. [00:22:00] Speaker B: Preach. Baby, you're blowing my mind. [00:22:05] Speaker A: And I want to focus a little bit on that light because we call them candlesticks. But we have to understand, in the original temple, when you look at the menorah, it's being fueled by oil. And the oil being symbolic of the spirit. Right? It's that combination of the tree and the oil to be able to provide the light. And the light becomes the fruit. It's what's being produced by this menorah and the light that's being produced. And I think there's connections there. When you see Lehi, when he has his vision and he sees the fruit and it's this bright white pure, almost like the flame of a candle, and you've got these crossovers, right? And I'm looking forward to getting this next year when we talk about the Book of Mormon. But these are images associated with the savior and what he's come to do that are embodied in the temple. And this is what John's seeing. And he's seeing it with the Savior. But remember when we talked in the Old Testament, we asked ourselves the question, who is the shepherd? It's easy, right? Christ is the shepherd. Well, then how come he asks us to be the good shepherd? Who is the lamb? Well, Christ is the lamb. Well, yes, but didn't he also we are the lambs. [00:23:28] Speaker B: That's what I was going to say. He went and saved the lamb that had gone astray from the other 99. Yes. Keep going. [00:23:35] Speaker A: And the same thing with the lion, right? Who's the lion? Well. Judah is the lion. Oh, well, Christ is the lion. And all of these images that Christ takes on. We come to embody. And so here you see Christ speaking. Well, I guess you don't see John Hears Christ speaking. He turns to view Christ. And instead of seeing Christ, he sees the menorah. The symbol of Christ. But then Christ turns it around and makes it a symbol of the people, not him. And he says these seven candles are the seven churches. And then so if the church now becomes the tree rather than Christ, then let's look at it this way. What is the church producing? What's the church supposed to produce? And think about this from even a modern perspective. In the restored gospel the restored church of Jesus Christ Jesus Christ has given his authority, his priesthood in order to make covenants, to be able to save the children, in order to provide light life. And so the church becomes Christ. The church becomes this image of him. And the product of the church or the fruit of the church is salvation is life. Through the church, through baptism, through covenants. We partake of that fruit and we can now live forever. He says here's the seven candles are the seven churches. And the flames on them are the people, the leaders, the servants of the churches that I have called. They are the offspring, the product of the church. And you see this we talked about this even in the epistle of John, the second one, when he talks about the elect lady being the church and the offspring. And so it's this image where Christ again takes something that's very uniquely Him and applies it back down to us. And I like that. And it's something I've kind of been struggling with. I think that I trust God. And I believe God. But then when God asks me to do something and I expect an outcome or a result, I sometimes have doubt in the result or the outcome. And I look at this almost as a mathematical equation, right? God plus me is going to equal something, and is that something going to work? And I doubt that that something's going to work, but yet I don't doubt God. So if it's not that I doubt God, then what is it? It's, well, I doubt myself in that equation. Am I up to the task? Am I going to do this? Or am I just crazy? Is this just the foolish imaginations of my heart, as they put it in the Book of Mormon? Or am I doing what I'm supposed to be doing? And it's the imperfect me part of that equation that I look at. And because I'm imperfect, I expect the outcome to be imperfect or I wonder or I doubt that. And it's not that I doubt God, but really I start to doubt myself. But in the end, ultimately, I have to be doubting God, because he's the one that put me in that equation. [00:26:44] Speaker B: If you're doubting yourself if I'm doubting. [00:26:47] Speaker A: Myself and looking here at Revelation, that's what he's doing, right? He's putting us in that equation. He's saying, the church is me, the church is the Kent. These images that you equate with me is also you. And I'm putting my trust in you. And if I trust God, I have to trust myself too. And part of that is learning not just to trust God, but to trust myself and to trust others, even though we're imperfect, knowing that God has put us in there and that the outcome is still going to work out, even with imperfection. And isn't that how it's all been from the beginning? I mean, Adam and Eve, partaking of the fruit was an imperfection, and yet we're still getting the desired output. And if I don't think God is enough to be able to make up for my deficiencies, then really I am doubting God. [00:27:39] Speaker B: I was going to ask you, like boots to the ground, what does that mean to trust yourself and God at the same time in that equation? I think you just answered it, but I want to highlight it. And that's the trust that even though I know I am imperfect and even though I know that I'm going to blow it and make mistakes, I also know that I have a savior that has paid the price for that and redeem me. And that instead of getting frustrated and losing hope and instead of getting frustrated and losing faith, I can have the confidence to go, okay, I know what I need to fix, but I'm not damned because of this. At least that's how I hear that. [00:28:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:22] Speaker B: Because I don't think that for me. And I don't want to speak for everybody, but I feel like it's a fairly probably common thing where I don't feel like my day to day is having to necessarily trust that I have to pray about every single thing that I'm going to do wait for an answer and then trust God that he's going to tell me what to be doing with my day to day life. Right. Like when we say trust God, I think that in a lot of cases that we're not applying that to, hey, you need to trust that God is going to tell you exactly what to do in every situation for the rest of your life on a day to day basis, moment to moment basis. Right. [00:29:07] Speaker A: That's almost taking yourself out of the equation, flawlessly stated. [00:29:12] Speaker B: And so I think that for me, when I hear those terms, trust God, trust God, trust God, I kind of at a certain point go, well, what does that actually mean? Because I actually trust that God has put some trust in me, you know what I mean? To make some decisions. [00:29:31] Speaker A: Right. [00:29:31] Speaker B: The me part of that equation, I trust that God has gone, has given me the tools and the upbringing and the spirit necessary to go, hey, go learn and grow and make choices and live your life. And when there's the important things, obviously, like, I'll step in as needed. But I think maybe that's what I associate with trusting. God is trusting that if I'm doing what I'm supposed to do, god will step in and make sure I don't walk off the side of a cliff. And I think that maybe that trust in God should, like you said, also just be trust in myself. Right. Maybe part of that equation, maybe that's us in that equation, too, is also trusting that your motives are correct in this world for the most part. Right. You're trying to do the right thing and therefore try to be a good person if there are the big decisions. Absolutely. I'm not suggesting you don't pray about stuff, but I guess I'm just saying maybe realize God has put a lot of trust in us as well, and take that responsibility and thrive with that responsibility. And by the way, take some bruises, blow it, and trust that God has also paid the price for that too. And so you're okay, you know what I mean? You're all right. Even when you blow it, god's told you he's given us the exact path on how to fix that. So I guess a lot of this I guess I'm. Trying to say is to highlight what you're saying. If we're putting our trust in God, then we really should be accepting that he has put a lot of trust in us at the same time. And then grabbing a hold of that and being empowered by that, I guess. [00:31:26] Speaker A: Yeah. I think learning to trust Him is just as much important also to learn how to trust ourselves. And that was it in the beginning, right. Because the alternative God's plan was, I need to enable, I need to empower, I need to allow them to choose for themselves to be my plan is to it wasn't, I'm going to take care of this. It's who will I send? I need someone else in this equation. And each of us volunteered to be in that equation with God, here am I, send me. As opposed to another plan that was put forth that says, let's get everyone out of the equation. We don't want them to mess it up. Let's force this. And everyone's going to do and we keep going back to that. We say, Tell us everything, like you say, God, tell me everything I'm going to do. I don't want to be part of this. I don't want my agency. I want you to just give me the script and I'll read it so. [00:32:23] Speaker B: That I don't blow it. [00:32:23] Speaker A: So I don't blow it. And that's going back, leaning the other way where God's trying to empower us. [00:32:30] Speaker B: That just shows you don't trust God. If you think that, though, because the thing is then that means that you're so scared, you have so much fear that if you blow it, then that's the end of it. Like, I'm not even going to say it's lazy. The idea of that would be tell me everything that I need to do so that I don't mess up. And from God's perspective, it's like, why? I've already paid the price for you messing up. Do you not trust that my grace is sufficient? Do you do not trust that I can save you from the mistakes that you make? It's like it's almost you relying 100% on tell me every single thing that I should do on a day to day basis and I'm not going to get out of bed until I receive strong revelation on what I'm supposed to eat for breakfast this morning. Right. It's almost a what's your motive? As the person asking that? And it almost screams of, well, if you tell me everything to do, then as long as I do that, then I can say, well, even if that was right or wrong, well, you told me to do it. I don't know. I guess I'm just saying there's a lot of fear. It feels like baked into that idea of there's a lack of trust in God. There's a lack of trust in the atonement that we can be redeemed for when we make mistakes. And again, as any good parent like, yes, you want your children to not walk off a cliff when they're two. My daughter is one years old now, and she's trying to navigate stairs crawling. And I'm like, yes, a bad parent lets a one year old try to navigate stairs for the first time by themselves, right? But a good parent goes, I'm going to allow you a certain amount of I'm going to allow you a certain amount of kind of bumping your head against the wall, but I'm going to make sure you don't roll down the freaking stairs, man. But that's a very different way than I parent my ten year old. My eleven year old, which is just crazy to actually think about now, is that it's like, she can make it up and down the stairs because we've already worked on those processes. But you see what I'm saying. But a good parent also goes, but other old daughter, you can trust me to know that I'm going to try to be a barrier for you spiritually. I'm going to try to help you. I'm going to allow you actually quite a bit of freedom. And I want you I want you to learn through these processes. I don't want you coming and asking me every single day, even with your homework, a lot of it's like, hey, is this answer right? I'm like, show me how you got to that process. Do you see what I'm saying? Hopefully we can see the parallels in this thing. By the way, I'm totally okay with my daughter not getting straight A's in school because I'm like, as long as you're learning from this, hey, what are the processes that you're learning that are going to help you improve? [00:35:23] Speaker A: And where are you and what are you doing based on where? [00:35:26] Speaker B: That's what I'm saying. Some of those things are insignificant in the long run, right? Dude, if you get an A on a test or a C on a test but I also am a parent that's here to go, hey, if this is going to make it so that you don't graduate from high school, yes, I'm going to be a guardrail here. I will step in and make sure that that happens. Do you see what I'm saying? [00:35:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I do. And you know, it's interesting. I was talking about if you're going to God to try to give you a script and everything that you have to do, how you're almost removing yourself out of the equation. The irony is it's actually you're trying to remove God out of the equation because you're trying to say, let me do everything perfect, right? So that I don't need you anymore. [00:36:09] Speaker B: Yes. That is an absolutely thought provoking, profound comment on that. Thank you. Absolutely. That is exactly what there is the twist there's. The twist is that I don't trust your sacrifice enough to redeem me when I blow it. That's exactly right. What I love about this idea is the unknowns a little bit like the faith, the trusting, the hope, all of the things that those words that we keep hearing that we're supposed to have over and over and over and over, right? There has to be some unknown here. There has to be there has to be a, I'm going to do this, and I hope that it's right. I hope that, by the way, when it at times will not be right, have faith and hope that the atonement is enough to save me. And I'm going to do what I can to prove my faith. I'm going to live my life in a way that proves that I do have faith because I'm going to repent and I'm going to try to change. You see what I mean? I'm going to put aside my will, hopefully. And bro, this is something I'm saying this from the lowest of places when it comes to this. I'm trying to be better at this, but for me, it's the courage. It's the opposite of fear. It's the courage to go, I'm going to walk out into that mist of darkness, and I'm going to do everything I can to hold on to that iron rod. But when I let go by obvious decisions or sometimes by casualness or whatever that is, I'm going to have the faith that if I move back towards it, it'll still be there for me to grab back onto. And that, I feel like, again, ironically enough, is the way that both us and God are in the equation. Right? I used to teach at a high school, and it was shocking how when there were some kids that had a hard time either with their school or with authority or with getting things done or whatever it is, it's shocking how much me telling them exactly what to do never fixed anything. But when I gave them responsibility, when I actually gave them high expectations with the follow up of and I know you can do it, it's crazy how emboldened they were, and it's crazy how. [00:39:03] Speaker A: They would rise up. [00:39:04] Speaker B: They would rise up to the high expectations that I gave them. And it became less about, let me give them low expectations so that when they cross the finish line, I can hand them a trophy and they can be like, yay, I did it. That's not low expectations and low standards brought in low self esteem and low effort, and the higher the expectations, by the way, with support, it was just crazy to see how you could see the change inside of people, right? I think that so much of where we gain confidence is through the trial and error, but us having the courage to go, hey, I'm going to make some big life decisions. I feel like this is right. I don't feel a conflict that this is wrong. I'm going to do it, and I'm going to trust that even if it wasn't the right answer. The process was right. Which is, thank you, God, for trusting me enough to go, I'm going to make some decisions. I'm going to do something. It might be moving my family halfway around the world. Right. And by the way, it may turn out that maybe that wasn't the greatest idea in the entire world, right. But the process was correct, right? Like, God's not mad at us. God's not mad at us for maybe having the wrong answer sometimes. As long as the process was correct, which is, I'm doing this with the right motive. I'm doing this. I feel good about this inside. I don't feel the conflict, and I'm going to freaking make some decisions in this life if they end up being wrong, god, I know that you can still have my back on this. I think about this in our callings. I think about this as, by the way, we're trying to be better parents, as we're trying to be better children, right? As we're trying to be better neighbors, as we're trying to be better employers and employees. It's like this applies so directly, I feel like, to everything that we do in life, which is, look, if you trust that God's going to be a guardrail to keep you from falling off a cliff, then have the courage to try to make the world a better place, even if it's dark outside. [00:41:26] Speaker A: Yeah, spot on. [00:41:28] Speaker B: All right. Have we beat this one to no, no. [00:41:32] Speaker A: In fact, I'm just going to add one last little bit to this, please. As I was reading last night with our family the story of Saul when he goes and conquers the area, and he was instructed not to keep any of the goats or the spoils, right, the spoils. Samuel shows up and Saul's kept them, all, right? So he goes and talks to Saul and like, hey, what's going on? I thought you were supposed to destroy everything. Oh, I did. Well, then what's the bleeding that I hear? What's the sounds that's going on? And Saul says, oh, well, we did take the best because we thought we would sacrifice it to God. And then this is where Samuel drops that wisdom. It's better to be obedient than to sacrifice. Right. But this is where things take kind of a sad turn for Saul is he loses favor with the Lord and Samuel loses confidence in him, and Samuel kind of turns away from him and never comes back and in fact goes and anoints another king, right? And so I look at that lesson and I look at what we're talking about being part of that equation. And I feel like if we ever feel inadequate and we question whether or not we fit in that equation, that's actually one of our greatest strengths, to be humble enough to see that maybe we don't fit as well and that we need to work on fitting better in that equation and trusting that God and working with Him to fit in that. Because in Saul's case, he wasn't humble enough to try to change anymore or to try to be better or listen a little bit more. In his mind, he's achieved it. He was there. I don't know. Sometimes that doubt, that questioning, as much as it is a great weakness, also becomes our greatest strength because it keeps us close to the Lord, is what all I'm trying to say. [00:43:46] Speaker B: Okay, well, now I have another thing I want to say too, though. Do you remember when we asked last year, we know what we are without God, but what is God without us? And it led to some really amazing thought provoking conversations, which kind of, like, maybe not culminated, but really kind of highlighted itself when Christ was baptized, right? And the words specifically he used with John when he says it is expedient for us to fulfill all right, that we might fulfill all righteousness. I think that this conversation is really kind of putting the fine point on the idea, which is God wants us to be part of the equation maybe more than wants God needs. What is his work in his glory? What is his glory is to bring to pass our eternal life? Maybe this is the answer to that question, right? Look at every covenant we make. It's like we always look at it just from our like, hey, here's where we want God in this equation for us. But are we considering God saying maybe to us what he said to John? Which is, it is expedient for us that we fulfill all righteousness? Like, maybe this is the answer. Maybe this equation really is the answer to that question we posed a year ago, right? Is what is God without us? Well, he's told us he's like, this is my work. You are my work. Together, it is expedient for us to fulfill all righteousness. He can't do that without us, right? I mean, that's what he's saying. How else can I understand that other than when we're like, hey, we shouldn't be removing God from the equation. God's like, bro, don't remove you from the equation. Do you see what I'm saying? [00:45:47] Speaker A: Yes. [00:45:51] Speaker B: This is the beauty. And the only reason I'm thinking of this again is because it's hard for me to think like, what is God without his family? Who wants to be alone? As much as you might be the most all powerful, you can do anything, see anything, whatever. It's like, what's it worth? [00:46:09] Speaker A: What? There's nothing. [00:46:10] Speaker B: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. If your loved ones aren't with you, then what is it? [00:46:18] Speaker A: And his work in his joy or his glory is to bring about our happiness, but it's also our work to bring about his happiness. His happiness depends on that's what he told us. [00:46:31] Speaker B: That's what he has told us in symbolism and quite literally through the scriptures that his work and his glory is to bring to pass the immortality, eternal life of men us. I think that we should have some reverence for that. That's the word I want to use. [00:46:51] Speaker A: I like that word. [00:46:52] Speaker B: All right, should we keep going? [00:46:54] Speaker A: We shall. And really the rest of this is really going to reinforce where we've been in the conversation that we've had. We've laid a lot of the groundwork when he starts talking about these seven churches and these seven angels and I like it. I like that he uses angels to refer to the leaders of the churches and the areas. And we need to understand that angel just means somebody who was sent to do something. And we talk about the ministration of angels, the ministration of those who are sent. The Aaronic priesthood holds the keys to the ministration of angels. The bishop holds the keys to the ironic priesthood and the ward, therefore he holds the keys to calling. And anyone who is called is sent is an angel. The angels that minister to us are the person who's called to give a talk on Sunday, the person who's called to give us a lesson in our class, the person who's called to minister to come into our home and to bring a message. It is the ministration of those who were sent. And I like that he uses angels to refer to those who are not just dead but living on earth, ministering to the people as we speak. All right? And he has a message for each of these. I don't know how much I want to get into the weeds on this. The important thing to take from this and Christ even says this when he says that he is the one that is walking among the seven angels or the seven churches, he is very much involved in his work. It's not something that some people have described as almost a watch that you wind and then you walk back and just let it go. He is very much involved in walking among his people and seeing what's going on. He's invested in this very much so, as much today as he was then. When he talks about this, he's going to address them and he says unto the church, here, write this. And he lists off some strengths, he lists off some weaknesses, but he finishes the message to all seven of them the same. And how he finishes it, it's the same but a little bit different in that he says but to him that overcomes. And I think that's important too when we're talking about us being in the equation and the doubt that we have and trying to figure out how to work in this equation with him, it's almost like we're the underdog we've got to overcome in order to make this work. The fact that he says to him that overcomes means that yes, we are down, we have some work to do, but to him that overcomes. Now, listen to these promises, and I'm going to start with the very first one. It says, to those that overcome, I will give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. And where is this happening? Where's the setting? And again, this is going to be the holy place because the tree of life as we've talked about, is embodied in the menorah. But not just that, but across the way from the menorah is the showbread altar that has bread and wine, which literally symbolize the body of Christ, the fruit of the Tree of Life. That if you partake of this, the priest would regularly eat of the fruit of the Tree of Life, symbolic of the in the old times. The reason why they did this with Moses is because Moses was preparing to bring everybody into the presence of God and they said no. They tried to pull themselves out of the equation and said, you do this for us. And so rather than being able to enter into the presence of God and partake of the sacraments, they had a priest do it for them because that was their desire. Where things have changed now and we're able to go into the temple, we're able to partake of this, let us be part of that equation. [00:50:51] Speaker B: I'm just wondering why God would have had that be the process early on, though, right? Because like you said early on, not anybody could just go into the holy place, right? And the holy of holies, was that done as a symbol of like when Christ came and rent the veil and made it so that everybody could you know what I mean, partake of those things or do those same things? I guess. I'm just saying, why would God have had that as the process before he. [00:51:29] Speaker A: Think I think we see instances of God allowing anybody who wants to come into his presence outside of the temple, outside of maybe Moses and the priesthood. And the reason I say that, I mean, look at Moses first going into the mountain and being called up into the presence of God and being giving stone with God's writing his fingers on it. And what happens there? Abraham gets his priesthood, not from his father because he's going through this apostate line, right? We see priesthood. I mean, even Moses getting it from Jethro. I guess what I'm trying to say. And even look at Doctrine Covenants 110 when it talks about who came to visit Joseph Smith and they talked about Elijah and they talked about Moses, they talked about Elias. And you're like, Elias? Who is this Elias? And it says, And Elias committed unto him the keys of the dispensation of Abraham. You're like, Wait, well, why wouldn't Abraham give him the keys of the dispensation of Abraham? Well, you got to remember, Abraham is also paying tithes to melchizedek. Melchizedek is outside of Abraham's line. Melchizedek has this melchizedek priesthood? Well, now you have this Elias, who also had keys in this dispensation. I feel like in ancient times, what we see is what we have from the Bible, which comes from this line of the Jews that's preserved to today, but it doesn't fully capture everything that was happening in ancient times. We had Melchizedek priesthood and we had people like Jethro and Abraham and Melchizedek and Elias, whoever he was, that were allowed into the presence of God, that were able to do these things for themselves. And even as we get into the Book of Mormon next year, lehi being able to have his tent and standing in the place of God and offering sacrifices. Not because he's from Judah excuse me, not from Levi or Moses or any of the priesthood lines, but he's receiving a different priesthood, the So with the children of Israel. [00:53:32] Speaker B: You're saying this is just kind of like a very specific case? Yes, and maybe it's kind of representative of, at the time, that whole situation where the children of Israel are like, hey, you go do this for us. That maybe that process was set up specifically for God to highlight, like, well, okay, fine, if you want somebody else doing this for you, then you don't get to go do this. And then maybe when Christ came, it's like, okay, now I have fulfilled this. You know what I mean? This process, I have fulfilled this situation. I guess we talk about the renting of the veil in the temple and all of the various deep symbolism of that thing. And I guess that was my question is, is one of those things the idea, though, that now it's not just the priest that can go to the temple and do these things for us, but now we take the place of the priest or we sit in I don't know. I guess I'm just wondering why it would change. [00:54:36] Speaker A: It's a good question. I mean, in either case, the priest represents the people and does it on behalf of the people. So in thought and theory, it's the people that go in and partake the sacrament. It's the people that go into the presence of God because the priest is representing them. But I wonder if there weren't other instances where people were also allowed to do it for themselves. It's a good question. And it's kind of cool the way it played out, looking at the ironic priesthood and the priests and this order and them doing it on our behalf and on our behalf. On our behalf till Christ comes and enables. US that no longer do we have to have someone do it on our behalf, but we are through him, able to do it for ourselves. Maybe, I don't know. It's interesting. [00:55:22] Speaker B: Cool. We can keep going. [00:55:23] Speaker A: All right, so when we look at this first promise to this church, I want you guys to notice a progression in here. If you're partaking of the Fruit of the Tree of Life, again, this is a reference to the Holy Place with the menorah, with the showbread, the altar. This is where it's beginning. And he goes to the next group and he talks to them about what he likes or maybe some of their issues. And he finishes up again with to he that overcometh and let's see if I can scroll through and find this promise. It's verse eleven. And he that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. And I'm trying to think, what does this second death symbolize? And if I'm trying to go back to a temple setting and the Tree of Life being in here in the Holy Place, the second death to me almost appears like the second veil. And I want to associate death with a veil because like you mentioned, when Christ died, the veil was rent, right? And if I look at death and you've got two veils and a second death being the second veil, you're passing through the second veil, well that would be separating you from the Holy Place to the Holy of Holies. And I go into the next promise to the third church. And this is where you see more of this progression. And this is going to be verse 17. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written which no man knoweth, saith he that receiveth it. So think if you go back again to a temple setting, you're going from the Holy Place to the passing through the veil, the second veil into now what's in the Holy of Holies? Well, if you look in the Ark of the Covenant, it kept manna. And it didn't just keep manna, but it also kept the stones written on by the finger of God. And I find it cool when they're talking about manna, not just manna, they refer to it as hidden manna. So manna out in the wilderness that you gather anywhere, that's fine. But the hidden manna is what was tucked away in the Ark of the Covenant, in the Holy of Holies because nobody had access to that room, nobody had access to there. It's hidden manna. So again, I'm seeing here a progression from where you've gone to the Holy Place to the veil, to now you're into the Holy of Holies. And so then I go to the next promise to the next church and it says verse 26 and to he that overcometh and keepeth my works unto the end, to Him will I give power over the nations and he shall rule them with the rod of iron. As the vessel of the potters, they shall be broken to shivers even as I have received of my father. And so remember, if you're in the Holy of Holies and inside you have the manna and the stone, but the Ark of the Covenant is the throne of God and God sits on that throne and rules over the nations. So now he's taking you not just what's in the Ark, but now he's placing you on top of the throne, in the place of God. To him that overcometh, I will make just like God now sitting on the throne. So you've gone from the holy place, the veil to in the Holy of Holies to now where you are enthroned and become as if God. And so this is what we were talking about at the beginning, those images that you associate with God, now he is taking those and reflecting them and turning them around and making them images of us. If you do these things, you can be like me. If you follow me, I will bring you into the Holy of Holies, I will put you on my Father's throne, you will rule over the nations. And the next promise is I will clothe you. And we've talked about the significance of clothing and Adam and Eve, when they partake of the fruit they're stripped, they lose that they're naked. And then God makes coverings coats of skin which require sacrifice to atone or cover their nakedness. And so now I will clothe you on the throne, I will give you my power, I will give you it's a transformative process. And this whole thing, John, this revelation that he's receiving of Christ is an endowment of power. It's a temple endowment for the people that as you follow my words, I will walk you through my house and I will put you on my throne and I will make you just like me. [01:00:06] Speaker B: I mean, it's kind of a profound thing to think about is like what is the culminating covenant that we make in a temple? It's basically kneeling at a throne or an altar, right, and doing what? Grasping the hands of somebody else in that equation or that covenant and looking into a mirror on either side and basically seeing ourselves and somebody else for eternity. The whole thing still culminates in the final, you know what I mean? In the final covenant that we make at least in the temple with God, which is at a throne or an image of which right, I know we see the altar is only something that something dies on, but again, it absolutely could also appear or symbolize a throne. And so even during that ceiling, who is the third party that we're told is part of that covenant, right? So anyways, it's like when you even said kind of holds a mirror up so that we can see ourselves in that position, it's just like oh man, in our temple, you. Literally have a mirror that you are looking at yourself and your partner and hopefully God right? In that ceremony. [01:01:23] Speaker A: As well as reading through this, it struck me as curious, why are they starting in the holy place? Because you think of the temple, they've got the courtyard of the gentiles, the courtyard of the women, the Israels, the priests. Why aren't they starting at the laver outside? Why aren't they starting at the altar where you first offer sacrifice and you get to this vision with John and you're walking through this temple endowment and this process of becoming like God, and it's starting here. And as I thought about that, I thought, wait a second, you've got two veils in the temple and you're starting in between them. Well, isn't that where we are here on earth? We have a veil before us. We can't remember life before we came here on earth. We're already starting here in the holy place. This earth is a holy place. And it's kind of funny, like even the word terrestrial tierra, it's earth. That's the Latin, that's what it means, the earth. It was a holy place, consecrated and prepared and given to us. And yet from here, what are we going to do? In order to pass through the veil and make it to where we are now, we had to first agree to follow God. Here am I, send me, I will obey. That was the first test and that's what it took to get through that veil and to be here on earth. And not everybody passed that test. Not everyone was willing to put God first and say, I will do what you want me to do. A third of God's children said, I have a better idea, and never made it through that veil. Maybe we end up in the same place, but it's a very different place for them as it is for us, and a very different and we gain an inheritance while they lost theirs. And that's why I think John starts here in the holy place with this revelation, is we've made it through the first test, we've made it through that first veil. And inside this first veil, we are surrounded with images, symbols of Jesus Christ, and asked to take those upon ourselves and to emulate and to be like them, to humble ourselves and follow Him so that we can pass through the second veil and return back to God. Everybody's going to pass through the second veil just like everybody. See if I can say this better, we're all going to die, but not everybody's going to be but not everybody's. [01:03:54] Speaker B: Going to be exalted. [01:03:55] Speaker A: But not everyone's going to be exalted. Going through that second veil is going to be similar to coming through that first veil. We're all going to move on to what's next. But how are we going to move on to what's next. And only through becoming like Christ are we going to be like Christ, be. [01:04:12] Speaker B: Able to sit on the throne. Yes, I'm with you. [01:04:15] Speaker A: I think I butchered that. [01:04:16] Speaker B: I don't think you butchered that at all. I think that me and everybody listening. We're with you, we're hanging on, we're along for the ride. [01:04:23] Speaker A: I hope so. I hope that makes sense. Again, that's the me part of the equation that sometimes isn't very good at stating things the way I think they should be said. All right, we've probably dwelled on this long enough. [01:04:41] Speaker B: No, let's keep going. [01:04:42] Speaker A: This is the end of it. We've reached the end. This is chapter five. And what a culminating thing for me. This is so beautiful. We're going to be talking about the throne of So John at this point. You have Christ appearing to him and it's temple like setting, but now all of a sudden, he's going to be brought up into heaven itself. And the temple, remember, is just a shadow of the actual temple reality, god's kingdom, God's throne. And John's going to be brought to the real throne of God, not just the temple, not just the holy of Holies, but to the actual throne of God. And he's going to see beasts and animals and weird things. And part of that maybe you can look at and say, well, if there's animals surrounding the throne of God, then you got to realize that all animals, all life is God's creation and that heaven is not just going to be a bunch of people, that all of creation is going to stand before God one day. That's one thing you can take away from this. But I'm going to finish this with chapter five, because to me this is very touching. And verse one, I'm just going to read some of this. And I saw on the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written, which on the backside sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, who is worthy to open the book and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much because no man was found worthy to open to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, weep not, behold the lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David hath prevailed to open the book and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld and lo in the midst of the throne and the four beasts in the midst of the other stood a lamb, as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent to the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne. And when he took the book, the four beasts and the four and 20 elders fell down, and the Lamb having every one of them at the heart. So they all begin to rejoice. And I'm not going to read everything in here, but the point is this this book containing seven seals. Each seal is sealing a thousand years of Earth's history, the first thousand second thousand, all the way to 7000 years of Earth's history. This is the plan of God. And God's saying, who shall I send? Who is worthy that we can open this book, that we can experience this life, that we can be here and nobody could volunteer. And I think it's important that there's that space of time to the point where John, who's looking at this and weeps, and I wonder if some of us were weeping, know, maybe this isn't going to happen. Maybe this isn't going to work. We aren't ready for this. And yet Christ stands up and says, I will. Here am I. Send me. And he was worthy to unloose the book, to make this happen, to make life happen. We owe Him a debt of gratitude, not just for coming and making it possible to resurrect and to live again, but to even be here in the first place. And I find it very interesting how they refer to Christ here in almost all of his first, he says, the lion of Judah is worthy to come and do this. And then he calls him the root of David. So you've got the lion and the tree imagery, and then he says, The Lamb. And it's not just any Lamb, but the Lamb as he was slain. And you think of Christ bearing the marks of his death as he comes to open this book. And here you're embodying time in the now that he's already been slain, and he's willing to open this book and to bring everything together and culminating, but also before life even began, that he was able to open the book, to even make it happen. And I love this chapter and I love this imagery and I love the thought of being there and the decision and really the gratitude that it brings to me that there was one who could enter into the equation with us to bring everything about, to square it all up. So that the end. The answer was going to work. [01:09:26] Speaker B: Love it, man. Thanks always for the time and preparation you put into these discussions, the study here. [01:09:35] Speaker A: Thank you. [01:09:36] Speaker B: We appreciate you all listening. We have had a fun year doing the New Testament. Kind of bummed. There's only a couple lessons left, but we are also very excited to get into the Book of Mormon. We were talking today about how we're pretty lucky that when we decided to do this, the timing was very serendipitous with the Doctrine of Covenants was kind of our chance to figure out how to even functionally make a podcast happen. Some of the episodes in that may have been more clunky than usual. I mean, you might still think these are clunky. They probably are, but some of the early ones luckily, we got to kind of cut our teeth a little bit with the Doctrine and Covenants. It's still great, but it's definitely worked out to where kind of to round out the four year experiment that we've been doing. We get to finish with the Book of Mormon and hopefully do what we can to help breathe some new perspective and some new life into that. So we're really looking forward to next year. Thank you guys so much for listening. We really appreciate all of the feedback, questions, comments. We again check out our new podcast coming out in 2024 called Inevitable Art. We'll do a little teaser bump after the after we're done recording here, but if that's it, then I guess we'll just see you next week, right? [01:11:06] Speaker A: See ya. Hi, I'm Emily Christensen. McPhee. And I'm Jake Kirk Richards. [01:11:18] Speaker B: We have a new podcast debuting January 2024 called Inevitable Art. [01:11:23] Speaker A: In the Inevitable Art podcast, we discuss how art helps us better understand ourselves and the world around us. Join us for inevitable art. [01:11:33] Speaker B: Debuting January 2000 And.