Matthew 3; Mark 1; Luke 3

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:15] Speaker B: Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the Add On Education Network podcast where we take a look at the weekly Come follow me discussion and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here in the studio with our friend and the show's producer, Nate Pifer. [00:00:31] Speaker A: What's up? [00:00:32] Speaker B: Hey, Nate. [00:00:33] Speaker A: Hey, buddy. [00:00:35] Speaker B: Another week, another episode. [00:00:36] Speaker A: Can't wait. [00:00:37] Speaker B: I'm stoked. We've been looking forward to John the Baptist and last week was kind of an introductory swing. And I'm looking forward to just finishing. [00:00:51] Speaker A: Strong, trying to stick the dismount. [00:00:53] Speaker B: That's it. That's it. Stick the dismount. That's a good way to put it. [00:00:56] Speaker A: Going to try to stick the dismount on John the Baptist today. [00:00:59] Speaker B: Yeah. And we get to introduce Mark. This is the first taste, I guess we get of Mark. [00:01:07] Speaker A: Okay, who is Mark again? Gentile. [00:01:11] Speaker B: That's a great question. [00:01:12] Speaker A: Or was he the one that's like. He wasn't a scribe or publican or something. Right. [00:01:17] Speaker B: Matthew's the publican. [00:01:18] Speaker A: Matthew's the publican. [00:01:19] Speaker B: Luke's the physician. Matthew and John were both apostles and Mark and Luke appear to be members of the 70 that was called to go out and teach Luke's gentile Mark. I think there's a little bit of mystery around Mark. [00:01:35] Speaker A: Mark's like a Roman name though, right? Like Mark Antony. [00:01:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:40] Speaker A: I was going to say I always thought Mark was a gentile, possibly Roman. [00:01:44] Speaker B: And possibly his name was John Mark. And there's a couple Johns and there's a couple marks. And there's a little bit of confusion. He could have been Peter' right hand man who was. Who was taking notes on Peter's journey and acting as a secretary. So he could have been Peter's secretary. He could have been Barnabas cousin. He could have been. He could have been a couple people. [00:02:08] Speaker A: Okay, that's good to know. All right. Just seeing if we had any place to start there. But let's dive into it. [00:02:15] Speaker B: All right, let's dive into it. And I think Luke probably gives us the best introduction to where we're headed. And Luke's very thorough. And so I'm kind of going to lean a little bit on him as we go through this chapter. He gives us a setting now in the 15th year of the reign of the Tiberius Caesar. Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee. So he is giving us context of who was who in a sense, and then also when. So it makes it a little bit Easier to. To understand the time period of Christ and what's going on, because Luke is fixing it in relation to that, talks about the high priest, Annas and Caiaphas being the high priest. And then you've got John, verse 4, 3. And he came into all the country about Jordan preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. As it was written in the book of Isaiah. The prophet saying, the voice of one crying to the wilderness, prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low. And I really want to go to Isaiah 40, because that's where this is coming from. Because that is also the mindset that John has. When we look at John, who is saying that he is preparing the way for somebody whose shoes he is not worthy to latch. And he's going to talk, he's going to say a few things that are interesting. In fact, the one that we've quoted several times, Nate and I keep misattributing it to Christ. John is the one who says it. Not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham to our Father. For I say unto you that God is able to raise. God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham. That's John the Baptist. And also the ax is laid at the root of the tree. Every tree that doesn't bring good fruit. [00:04:15] Speaker A: Chopping it down, baby, chopping it down. [00:04:19] Speaker B: And so let me go to Isaiah 40 real quick. Give us a little bit of context. Here we go. Comfort ye, comfort ye, my people, saith your God. Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem and cry unto her that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned, for she is received of the Lord's hand, double for all of her sins. The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, prepare ye the way of the Lord. Make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and the mountains shall be made low, and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain. And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together. For the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it. And that's when we talk about John saying, I'm not worthy to latch his shoe. Look at verse five is kind of this introduction. The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it. And you're going to see this a little bit more. Verse 9. O Zion, that bringeth good tidings, get thee up unto the high mountain, O Jerusalem, that Bringeth good tidings. Lift up thy voice with strength lifted up. Be not afraid. Say unto the cities of Judah, behold your God. Behold the Lord God will come with strong hand, and the arm shall rule for him. Behold, his reward is with him and his work before him. He shall feed his flock like a shepherd. He shall gather the lambs with his arms, carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with him. Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out the heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains and scales and the hills of a balance, who hath directed the spirit of the Lord or the counselors have taught him. So he starts to ask these questions, who is like him? And for John to be referencing this and for the disciples to be referencing this in connection with John saying, he is the voice preparing the way in the wilderness. It's not just that some messiah is coming. It's the idea that God himself, the creator of the universe, is going to come to Judah, going to be born. And John has that vision, that understanding. So when he says, I am not worthy to latch his shoe. And Nate, you brought this up. It's such a good point. The connection with this. And Moses, when he appears to the. Where he approaches the burning bush because now he has to take his shoes off and unlatch them, right? So John, here he is in the water, and when the people are coming to baptize him or to be baptized by John, they're taking their shoes off to go into the water to be dunked, and they come back out and put their shoes back on. He's saying, I'm not worthy to baptize him. And this connection of removing your shoes for the holy, yet it's almost this role reversal. Instead of John removing his shoes, it's Christ that's going to be removing his shoes for John. And I think that's significant. [00:07:27] Speaker A: Yeah, that's interesting. I wonder what the. I wonder what. Like the. I wonder what the connections there. I mean, I know when we read about in Moses, it's that you're, you know, standing on sacred ground. I wonder what the. I don't know, man. You know what I mean? It's like, I wonder what the. The deeper meaning behind that is. Because again, like, I feel like it's probably pretty important that it was important enough that they put it in the New Testament, right, that John said that. So there's got to be a reason. I don't Know, what do you think? [00:07:58] Speaker B: Well, and it's not even just John saying this here, because you're going to get it later on when Christ goes to wash the feet of the disciples and they're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, you shouldn't be doing this to us. Right. We should be washing your feet. We should be your servants. But then you have this. The disciples have their feet, the shoes removed in his presence. And this idea that you're on sacred ground, it is a good thought. And it makes me wonder. You know, the early altar of the temple, they said make it with unhewn stones. And this idea that you are not carving it, you are not cutting it, it's just raw, it's natural. So you don't put something that is manufactured or processed on your feet. You are coming in with your natural feet on the ground. I don't know if that's. [00:08:52] Speaker A: No, I like that. I mean, my thought for sure was I wonder if it has something to do with a connection to the earth or. You know what I mean, that there's nothing between you and, you know, God's creation or whatever. But I don't know, I mean, maybe that would. That might be a good one. That if anybody out there is probably yelling at their radio like, it's so obviously this, like, please let us know, because I don't know if it's super obvious to us. Well. [00:09:18] Speaker B: And it makes me wonder, where is John this whole time? Right. It says here in Isaiah 40 that this is the voice of him crying in the wilderness, which was a common. [00:09:29] Speaker A: Theme with a lot of the prophets that we just kind of got done reading about, not only in the Old Testament, but even Book of Mormon and such. [00:09:35] Speaker B: Yeah. This wilderness. And what is a wilderness? And it's supposed to be a wild place. Right. That's the very definition, the very word itself. A wilder. Like, it's not civilized. You don't have construction, you don't have buildings, you don't have civilization, you don't have development. It's almost like a reset button. Right. You're taking it back before man came in and, and put their flavor or put their order. [00:10:03] Speaker A: Interesting. [00:10:04] Speaker B: And so I wonder if that even comes to the same idea. Right. [00:10:07] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. That's a great point, actually. Kind of the. Again, unhewn stone, the ground unaltered. I don't know. I think you're probably headed down the right path with that. Interesting. Something to think about. [00:10:22] Speaker B: Yeah. And not only is it that John's in the wilderness and they all have to Go out to him in the wilderness after the baptism, where does Christ go? He goes into the wilderness for 40 days. So he has his own wilderness. And you've mentioned this, Nate. Wilderness is something that shows up so often. Israel had to wander in the wilderness for 40 years. In the Book of Revelation, which we will get to later on this year, it talks about the woman who bears the child and what happens. The serpent is there to try to swallow the child and the woman flees into the wilderness. And Lehi, in the Book of Mormon, going to the wilderness. And in his dream, he gets lost in this wilderness before he sees this tree of life. [00:11:05] Speaker A: Well, in Alma, in Joseph Smith, I mean, so many of these things, right? I mean, where does. Where does Joseph Smith's, you know, visit? Not visitation, vision. The first vision happens out, you know, in a grove of trees. It's like, I think that there's something to be said for going into, like God's. God's creation versus civilized. [00:11:28] Speaker B: I don't know, maybe not relying on the arm of flesh, but relying on the arm of God. Right? Being able to isolate yourself from. [00:11:34] Speaker A: Without the conveniences, by the way, without the. Without the conveniences of modern, I do not know, modern man created civilization. [00:11:44] Speaker B: And maybe there is something significant to that, because at this time, a lot of Israel is going through another phase of apostasy. If you prescribe to the teachings of the time, if you follow the rulers, the leaders of the time, you are being led astray. And so you have got to pull yourself away from. From the establishment, from the buildings, from what's being created. If it's being created wrong, and do a reset and create something from the wilderness from scratch and come back. We've talked about dualism before. You see it with water. We've seen it with a lot of different things. And I think you see it here with the wilderness too, because in one sense, the wilderness can also be a form of apostasy because you are going away from food and water sources and you're not necessarily having a ready supply of, if you will, this revelation. When the church goes away into the wilderness, it could be that it's going into an apostasy in a period of darkness where it's lost, it's wandering, it's confused. And you see that with Israel wandering for 40 years. So you can't have one side that's a negative side to the wilderness. But then you also have the flip side, this positive getting away and reconnecting to your roots and starting fresh. Love it. [00:13:03] Speaker A: Let's keep going okay. [00:13:06] Speaker B: When John's out here in the wilderness, he's going to be approached by a couple of groups of people. And it talks about the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and that's our introduction to them in the New Testament. And it might be worth saying, just on a quick note, who these people are. And the Pharisees believed in a strong oral tradition from the Torah, and they would interpret the Torah and they would talk about what it meant and these laws that they would create from these traditions that aren't necessarily written down. And that's where they were deriving their power. And they would really create a lot of outward rules, how many steps you can take on the Sabbath, and what you would do. Right. [00:13:45] Speaker A: Is it this time period when they kind of really started doing this, or had this been going on for a while? [00:13:49] Speaker B: It's this time period. It's post exilic. So after the exile is where you start to see the Pharisees come. And the Pharisees really are from where the rabbis are derived. And Pharisee is a Hebrew word that means separatist. They're breaking away. And so you have two groups, the Pharisees. So just to give you an idea, the population of Judea about this time, you're talking about maybe 7 million Jews. If we were to try to put a good estimate to it, the pharisees numbered about 6,000. So it's not like they were a huge majority, but they were an influential group of people. This is where your rabbis start to come from. And they're looking for a messiah. And they're looking very much to kick against the authority of the time. They're not happy with Rome. They're not happy with Herod. They're looking for someone to come and deliver them from Herod and from Rome. And they're very fixated on outward ordinances and things that you needed to do do. The other group is the Sadducees. They're even fewer in number. And the Sadducees come from the Hebrew Sadak, which is the priest. This is the priest class. These are the aristocracy. Am I saying that right? The aristocracy, your wealthy upper crust of society. This is going to be the ones typically associated with the temple. It's going to be the Sanhedrin. And they get their governing from the priest body. So you have this priestly class which is ruling the people. And they are getting their legitimacy from Rome. So they are friends with Rome and they are friends with worldly powers and trying to adopt and melt these worldly powers in with them because it legitimizes. And that is where they are deriving their authority from. So you have the Sadducees and the Pharisees are really in contrast with each other. When we mention them in the same breath. They kind of a dichotomy. They actually opposed each other a lot and kind of butt heads a little bit. And they both butt heads with Christ and this new form because now you have someone else who's rivaling them for authority and power. And this is now Christianity. Cool. [00:16:14] Speaker A: Let's keep going. [00:16:15] Speaker B: All right, all right. So we get to. We're going to. We're going to turn into Matthew chapter three. When we see what happens with these Sadducees and the Pharisees that Show up. Verse 5. And this is chapter 3. Then went out of Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region round about and were baptizing him in the Jordan, confessing their sins. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, o generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come. Bring forth, therefore fruits meet for repentance and think not to say. And that's where we get that verse that we keep quoting. Nate, we have Abraham to our Father. And I say unto you that God is able to raise these stones, that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the tree. Therefore every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down. And then this is where he says, I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. But he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoe I am not worthy to bear. And he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire whose fan is in his hand. And he will thoroughly purge his floor and gather his wheat into the garner, but he will burn the chaff with unquenchable fire. So I want. There's a couple things that we need to unpack here. First is bring forth, therefore, fruits meet for repentance. And that's something that you see even in doctrine covenants with the establishment of the Church being restored in modern times. And in order to be baptized, it says one of the conditions is that there must be fruit worthy of repentance to show that baptism can happen. So fruit being a product, what they are referencing here, and I love this association with baptism. How can you be baptized and make this covenant if you haven't at least demonstrated a product that shows that you were in the right place to make that covenant. And you see it all the time. When people discover who God is and their relationship with him and desire to follow him and make that commitment, you see them start making changes in their lives. When we feel Christ's light and desire to be like him and start doing things, that's the fruit that's being referenced here. That's what John's talking about. And I know where you want to go, Nate, and we're going to get there real soon. [00:18:42] Speaker A: I am on board with where we're at, baby. [00:18:44] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. I want to talk real quick. This. Whose fan is in his hand next? And this is a winnowing fan, and it's talked about as a fork or a fan, and sometimes it's used as a pitchfork. And he's talking to the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and he says his fan is in his hands and he's going to sift the wheat from the chaff, and the chaff he's going to burn. So the winnowing process is where they take. It's almost like a pitchfork, this tool, with all of these different spines coming out of the end of it. And they grab the wheat and they throw it up in the air, and then it drops. And when it drops, there's another element that's very important, and it is. You can't winnow wheat unless there's wind. So when you throw it in the air, if there's wind, the wind's going to blow. And because the wheat's heavier, it drops straight to the ground. But because the chaff is lighter, the wind's going to catch it and it's going to blow it away. So it's using the wind to separate the. The wheat from the chaff. And go Back to Isaiah 40 real quick. And he's going to reference the source of this wind and the importance of this wind in this process. When he says, Verse 7, the grass withereth, the flower fadeth, because the Spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it. Surely the people is grass, the grass withereth, the flower fadeth. But the word of our God shall stand forever. And I just wanted to look at that process when we're talking about fruit worthy for repentance and baptism. And he's addressing these people, and he says that the Lord is going to be sifting through his people. We have to expect. I look at this wind as something that's more of a tribulation. How can you separate the chaff from the wheat if there's not some sort of tribulation? And so go back to the different characteristics of the chaff versus the wheat. When tribulation happens, when bad things start to happen and you feel like your life is falling apart, or you're being asked to do something that's too hard, or you're struggling, that's the wind that's hitting you. And those that are anchored to the Lord and that turn to him and are not affected by it, but to continue in a straight path down, consistent, and maybe that wavers a little bit, but not much. The wind might blow the wheat a little, but it still stays consistently connected with the Lord as it falls to the floor. Whereas in the chaff, as soon as that happens, it leaves. It can't stand to be there, and it turns quickly away and goes its different direction. It goes its own course. And I see that so many times when things happen to us, we have an opportunity to choose what we are going to do. That trial, that wind that blows on us, can either have us turn closer to the Lord to try to seek him and find faith and find an anchor and find something that holds us to him, or it can cause us to turn away from him and be resentful of him and reject him and quickly go the other way. And it's referenced again when it talks about revelation anchoring people. And it says, not bent by every wind or every doctrine, because you have the more sure word of prophecy. And that is a testimony. It's the testimony of Jesus Christ, which is the sure word of prophecy which keeps us anchored when the wind blows, that separates the wheat from the chaff. All right, this is, I feel, like the heart of the message right here. When Christ comes to be baptized by John, and John looks at Christ, and this is something interesting that you pointed out to me, Nate, when we were talking about a week or so ago. The symbol of Christ. When you look at the sacrament that's being passed and you ask the question, who represents the Savior? The priest that's standing up and saying the prayer, is he not doing it in the name of Christ? And is he not standing in for Christ to be able to bless the food, the bread and the water, and the deacon that takes it and administers it, is he not also the symbol of Christ? And the table itself, with the cloth that covers over almost the body, and you have the body of Christ and the blood is Christ, not the image of the person at the altar? And so you ask, who is the symbol of Christ, or what is the symbol of Christ? And as they are taking the bread to the partakers of it, you might think, well, this one's easy at least. These ones are the sinners that need the covenant. But what did they covenant to do? To take upon themselves the name of Christ, to have his spirit with them, to take his body into them, internalize it, and to follow him and be like him? Are they not saying, I will be Christ, I will be like Christ? And are they not symbols of Christ too? And so you got my mind thinking. You pointed this out and you made this connection to this baptism. And it was so powerful for me. When John goes in to get baptized. Excuse me, when Jesus comes to John to get baptized, thinking of the baptismal covenant, what you're saying, the oath. If John is doing this in the name of Christ, how can he baptize Christ in his name? And what's that reaction? What are the words you say? I baptize you in your name with your authority, as if I was you. How do you do that? How do you. And so you can see that conflict for John. Wait a second. The only way I can baptize you is because if I'm doing it as if I were you, so should you not be the one that's doing this? I'm not worthy to do this. I can't do this. This is you that's supposed to be here doing this. If any, anything, I should be baptized by you. And Nate, what's Christ's response? [00:25:07] Speaker A: This is what stuck out to me, I think the most. And the reason I brought it up is because he said it is up to like us to fulfill all righteousness. And I think that's kind of what got my mind racing in the first place, is that Jesus was very clear that for this covenant to be made, that it. It needed two people involved in it. So that was the response. [00:25:34] Speaker B: Yeah, and it's such a powerful. Because Christ is saying, I can't just do this by myself. And that's an interesting thing. Is that limiting for a God? He doesn't say, yeah, you're right, I'm God. I'm better off baptizing myself. I'm more perfect anyways. Right? I'll just dunk myself and call it good. And so for him to be coming to John and saying, no, it's not just me, it requires you in this sense of, let us do this to fulfill all righteousness. And you really got my mind thinking about that. And the question you asked was, what Is God without us? [00:26:25] Speaker A: Yeah, because I mean, I think that the, we always think to ourselves, like we kind of know what we are without God. Right? Those of those of us that believe, I mean, whether you believe or not, those of us that, that have a deep conviction that there is a God. I feel like we, I feel like it's the focus always is like, what would we be without God? And this specific situation really kind of like planted that question into my head. It's like, well, what. I guess, what is God without us? And I remember when I asked you, when I asked you about it at the first place, it's like, oh, that is actually kind of a, that's an interesting. And we were, we were, you know, we wanted to even talk about this last week, but it felt undercooked a little bit. Like we both kind of needed, we needed an extra week to really kind of think this one through. [00:27:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And it feels, it feels appropriate as last week we were talking about testifying of Christ. But when we start looking at John and Christ and the coming together of the two of them to fulfill all righteousness, that really Christ can't do it without John and John can't do it without Christ because John's doing it in Christ's name. And the idea that God needs John put us in that place. Right. God needs us. [00:27:49] Speaker A: Well, we read that his work and his glory is to what, to bring. [00:27:54] Speaker B: To pass the immortality and eternal life of. [00:27:57] Speaker A: That's the glory of God. I mean, that's what we believe. Yeah, we believe that God's glory is directly tied to us. [00:28:05] Speaker B: And if he can't save us, then. [00:28:10] Speaker A: I mean, what's the purpose of having a God? I guess that's kind of the question, right? What is the purpose of God? If it's, if it's not to, if it's not to redeem his children. I mean that's, I think that again, that's kind of as I've been really trying to grasp the question. I mean, I immediately just thought back to, you know, I know I mention this all the time, but every year we do a little arts retreat. And this year there was an awesome kind of like guest speaker. And his message was kind of like some unique beliefs and understandings that like the restored church has compared to other churches. But he talked a lot about the co creative process in art. But then, you know, it's like, of course, like our brains all kind of started thinking about like a way bigger picture than just. Yeah. When we make things or when we create things. That's. That's a co creative process with the ultimate creator, which is a beautiful sentiment, by the way. But then you just start looking back from the beginning, right? Like, just start at the very beginning of Genesis. Everything's a co creative process, right? Like everything we believe in heavenly parents, we believe that the earth was created by multiple people, not just one. And it's a fascinating thing when you do kind of understand a restored gospel's perspective on this versus so many other, if not every other popular religion, which is that we don't just see God as like this in the beginning. It's like a God just popped out of nowhere. And then from him, he's just like, I guess I'm going to create everything in the universe. But we actually believe we're eternal and he's eternal. We're almost co. Eternal together, right? But then when you just start looking at the covenants that are being made, like, what is a covenant? What is baptism? It's a covenant, right? And what is a covenant? It's a co agreement, right? Or it's a co. It takes two people to make a covenant, right? So it's just like everything that we are learning about, everything is all of these things. I just feel like keep coming back together to the idea that God's work in his glory is to. Is to with us redeem the world, right? Is to. Is to with him redeem ourselves or let him redeem us. I'm just saying it's like everything is a co. It's a partnership, right? And we talked about this. When we talk about, you know, we hear that term like the yoke, right? And that, you know, my yoke, like, let me be yoked to you, My burden is light. And like, even those words, like, what is a yoke? It's where you put two cows together, right? Or two beasts of burden. And why? Well, it's so that if one is stronger than the other one, then he can help shoulder some of that weight and carry the other person across the finish line. And I mean, Christ is like saying like, I will be yoked to you. Like, together we'll do this. And as I've thought back through this specific instance of the baptism, it's like the first thing I think we always, like, learn and we teach as missionaries is like, this is Christ just showing us an example of what we should do. And I feel like that's kind of a. [00:32:03] Speaker B: That. [00:32:04] Speaker A: I mean, that's true. I think on some level I was like, well, Jesus didn't need to get baptized. So the only, so the only reason he did it is to show us an example. That's the more I've started thinking through this and Jason, the more that we've kind of talked about this and we've kind of shared some thoughts and ideas over the past couple weeks. This feels so much more to me like God's showing us an example of his process, of his commitment to us. Is that when Jesus tells John no, it is necessary for us together to fulfill all righteousness. This feels less like Jesus trying to say, I need you to follow my example. And it feels more, at least for me, it has started to come across way more as God showing us what he's doing and what he's willing to do and how much he loves us because he's willing to co create with us. He's willing to co feel with us like, like all of these emotions that we feel. And again we talked about this even kind of a little bit over text, but it's what is, what's the one, what's the one moment that we read about in the scriptures where Christ had to go it alone? [00:33:25] Speaker B: Gethsemane. [00:33:26] Speaker A: Right, that's right. But even then, like what was he feeling in that moment? [00:33:32] Speaker B: And that would be us. [00:33:33] Speaker A: That's exactly right. So even in that moment, like we. [00:33:38] Speaker B: Were there, even when he's alone, without us, there would be no guess. [00:33:42] Speaker A: That's exactly right. And so then, and then it's like again, like we could go through every example of this and we could, I mean it would take us who knows how many episodes to kind of go, you know what I mean? To really like highlight all of these examples. I mean, Adam and Eve, right? Like man's not meant to be alone. I mean just like everything, everything highlights this idea. I mean we talked about this when we talked about in the beginning, there was the Word and how was life given to man? The word was breathed into him. Life was breathed into him. And it's hard not to even just realize that every breath that we take is a miracle, right? Like that's even a, that's, that that's a God given function as we read it in the scriptures, right? [00:34:31] Speaker B: Every word. [00:34:33] Speaker A: That's exactly right. Every breath we take is a co relationship with a higher power. But as you as it's for me, it's like I always comes back to. But then what does that mean right? For me, what does that mean tomorrow? What does that mean right now? And kind of like we talked about earlier today, it's to me, it's It. It finally is helping sink in. Like, even when you mess up, even when you blow it, even that is a co experience with a higher power. Because of those. Out of those things can be born the most beautiful life, right? Out of our mistakes can be born the most beautiful experiences and learning experiences or whatever that is, right? And we talk about. We talk about fire so much as this destroying thing, but like, but it's also this purifying thing, right? Like, that's the duality of those things. And so it's like, it's just hard not to even start seeing. Even the things that we do that we just feel are so bad that we just beat ourselves up over it. It's like when you start to just understand that even that could be just as much of a creative process as anything else, right? Because maybe out of that is born a desire to be better or a desire to learn from it and something that you can maybe use to save another soul at some point in this life, not just your own. It just you. It. For me at least, it's just like you start, I think, finally trying to grasp. And for me, it's really helped me finally start to understand, like, oh, my goodness, like, this is the depth of love that God has for us, even in our mistakes and blowing it all the time. [00:36:25] Speaker B: This is. This is the shoe latching, Nate. Remember how he said it's going to go full circle when Moses appears the bush and he takes his shoes off? And now you've got John. When Christ dies, it gives us life. When we die, it gives Christ life. It gives him meaning. Our mistakes, our falling, our death, if you will. Spiritual, physical, puts meaning in him and brings him to life as a God. Because now he has the opportunity to redeem, to save. It is what makes him a God. It is what gives him life. Just as his death livens us, our death livens him. And Nate, as you're talking about this baptism, and you're so right, not just this symbol of just come follow me, but this here's my commitment to you. It reminded me of Abraham. And you remember when Abraham goes to make his covenant with God and he's ready and eager and willing and he sacrifices those animals and he lays the two pieces down and he's ready to go in between those two pieces of animal, and he's waiting for God to make that covenant because it's always the weaker party that goes through and submits himself to those terms, to the greater one by passing through those pieces. And then when God shows up in that Light. It's not Abraham but God himself that subjects himself to that covenant that goes through those pieces. And it's just like Christ here again saying, I will submit myself to these terms. I will bind myself by this covenant. It's not just important that you do it. We need each other. And I am nothing without you, and you are nothing without me. And this takes me again to Isaiah 53, because it says, when you make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed. And remember, he was cut off from the land of living and he didn't have seed. Who shall declare his generation? But when you make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed because you become born of him. But not only is this the birth of his children, what we're witnessing is the birth of, of a God. He shall see his seed. [00:39:00] Speaker A: And how, I mean, incredible is it that again that we have this understanding and that again, it's like, I understand that why to all other, you know, modern contemporary religions, it seems like, I don't know, like we're the heretics, right? To go. We don't believe that God's purpose is just to rule over us, you know what I mean? To like, sit on a judgment seat somewhere in the universe and just look down and I don't dictate our lives, right? Like, we don't, we just don't believe that. And again, like, I just, I can't emphasize enough how I'm finally starting to understand the depth of that scripture, that this is my work and my glory to bring to pass the, the immortality and eternal life of man. That is so unique and heavy and deep. And I just, I. It's one of those scriptures that I think that I've. It made sense on a surface level of like, oh yeah, God wants us to all return to live with them again. But what it's also saying is that this, that the way that, that God himself is glorified is in us becoming like him and becoming gods ourselves. Which I, again, I understand why that seems, that seems blasphemous to so many other people because again, like so much of modern religions just look at the idea of God as just this supreme punisher or this supreme gift giver. But, but that is, is very detached from us as humans. And what, you know, what we believe is that to God we're everything and that our salvation to him is everything. That's, that is, that is what he is working desperately to achieve is for our elevation as well. I mean, it's just, it's I don't. [00:41:09] Speaker B: Know, it's awesome, it's deep, it's, it's super profound. And I just wanted to put a bow on that with the words itself just going back and maybe repeating what Jesus said when John protests and says, how can I do this? Verse 15 of Matthew chapter 3. And Jesus answered and said unto him, suffer it be so now for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. [00:41:41] Speaker A: That just seems more than. That's my bow on it is that the next time you hear somebody say Jesus who was perfect and didn't even need to be baptized, did it so that he could show us an example, I'm just like, ah man, I don't know. [00:41:55] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:41:57] Speaker A: It's just that I think it's so much more deep and powerful than that. [00:42:01] Speaker B: He needed us and we needed him. And it becometh, it suffereth so that it, it becometh us. [00:42:08] Speaker A: That's what I mean. I just think that it's more than just him going through the motion because again, like remember, baptism is a covenant. And I think that this is, this is such a perfect example to finally see what it's like. And I'm sorry, this is actually the thing to put a bow on it. As we've talked about this idea of the co creative process with God who is the perfect embodiment of that if not Jesus himself, The perfect, the perfect combination of that, that co creative process or that or that bonding of God and man. And when Jesus himself, again when you know, you hear it said like, well, he didn't need baptism. Well, as far as being baptized for the forgiveness of sins, yes, I can still subscribe to that. Right. But when it's just the blanket, like well, he didn't need to be baptized and the only reason he did it was to show us an example. I just go like, I'm going to have to politely disagree but to the point that I'm trying to make Jesus Christ the perfect embodiment of that relationship of God and man, that co creative, that coexisting process. Then you just start looking at all of Christ's life, this, this, this baptismal covenant. By the way, not just this was not just Jesus going through the motions. Yes, maybe he didn't need to be baptized unto repentance, but, but he's showing us what a covenant is, which is a God and man and God giving man the authority to, to do these covenants, right, to perform these ordinances. And, and it's like this is this, there's, that's What I take out of this lesson is so much more of the example of God saying, this is how I, this is how I co create with you my children. But look at, look at his whole life. Like what is the message is love. The message is whatever. But even on the cross, like what's, what's Christ's, what's Christ's words on the cross? Even forgive them for they know not what they do. I mean it's, it's like, it's so much about us. Like as he's suffering and dying on the cross, it's like he's even then thinking of the people that are, that are doing this to him, right? When it would have been the easiest thing for him to be finally like going like, okay, I'm ready, I'm out of here. But instead, even then it was just the connection of God and the imperfect man. [00:44:54] Speaker B: And by the way, that covenant relationship that God has with his people throughout the entire Old Testament last year, and we're going to see it repeated over and over again here in the New Testament, is compared to a marriage, the groom and the bride. And we're going to see it prepare the feast, the bridegroom is coming and the bride needs to be ready and rise and put on your garments. More of the children of the married and this marriage relationship and the loyalty there. And you keep mentioning Nate co creative and look at that relationship in a marriage because how can they have offspring unless the husband is giving of himself to the wife and if the wife is not also giving of herself and with both parts mixing that DNA, you can't have a child without gametes from both, without that co creative process. [00:45:56] Speaker A: That's exactly right. [00:45:58] Speaker B: It requires both to lay everything down on the line. [00:46:02] Speaker A: I mean, that's actually a good way to put a bow on top of it. Is that again, like I, I can tell you this as, as a creator, as an artist. Right? Like, yeah, there are definitely are times that you feel like you've tapped into like a different place. But even the struggle where it doesn't feel like that still there's, there's, there's a level of this isn't me, this is something that I've learned from or whatever. But then when you take it to the ultimate God giving his power to humans, it's the perfect illustration of like nothing is done by yourself. Salvation isn't done without a, a partnership somewhere along the line, whether that's Christ, whether that's God, whether that's family, whatever that is. Right. But it's Funny, because then, you know, we again, we kind of started posing the question, we know what God, we know what man is without God, but what is God without man? It's like, what did we sing today in state conference, man? Families can be together forever. It's like, okay, well then what is eternal glory for us if we don't have others there with us? It's like, what, what is actually, what is heaven if it's not with our family and our loved ones? It's like, maybe that's the best answer to that question is like, what is. What is. What is our salvation if it's just us floating around in space just without anybody else being, Being, you know, I don't know, supreme, omnipotent, omnipresent, whatever, rulers over nothing. What is that? I don't know, man. I think that's for me, that's how I understand the answer to that question, for me at least, which is, heaven's not heaven if I don't have my kids with me. [00:47:58] Speaker B: And what a powerful example, using a husband and wife to teach us about our relationship with the Lord. Because I know it's hard to be perfect in a marriage, but understanding this concept of I'm not in this marriage to make myself happy, somehow I need to forget my needs and my wants and sacrifice myself to make my spouse happy with the faith that she in return or he in return. However, this they are going to sacrifice of themselves to make me happy. And I don't sacrifice myself to make my spouse happy. On the precondition that she sacrifices herself first, that I see that she's willing to do that, then I do it right. It requires a certain amount of faith that I don't know what she's going to do. I can't control her actions. I respect her agency. But I am going to give of myself and exhaust myself for her, taking care of her, providing for whatever it is I can for her with the hope or the faith that she is going to also do the same for me. And so when we think about God, you talked about other relationships, other religions teach about God, but just pause for a minute and think, if I sacrifice myself for him. And he keeps asking us over and over again in the scriptures, put me first, give to me, take care of me first. Then we have the faith and the hope that he will do the same in return. And what is he willing to do? Sacrifice everything he is for our happiness, to make us happy. Just like that relationship. And it is blind. It is faith we trust. And just the thought that he's willing to lay down his life for me, to make me happy. And he asks that I, in turn, lay down my life for him. I do what I can to try to please him, trusting that he also has me at the forefront of his mind and willing to do that. I love that image. And it teaches us how to be good spouses. [00:50:07] Speaker A: That's what I think. That was. What I was going to say is that I don't think that God asks us to sacrifice, you know, the broken heart and the contrite spirit, our will. I don't think he asks us to sacrifice that to him because he is, like, on an ego trip or feels like he needs to have somebody, you know, I don't know, like, just praising him, like, without purpose. Right. He just, you know, stroking his ego or whatever that is. Right. I think what you just said is the answer. And that is. He's teaching us what it takes to be a God. He's teaching us the sacrifice and the humility that it takes if we. If that is something that we eventually will. Will desire to do is. Is the willingness to lay down your own life. The willingness to lay down and to sacrifice the life of your only begotten. It's like that's. He's teaching us those laws which. The first fundamental laws of the universe, obedience and sacri. I don't think. I don't think that it's for building up his ego as much as it's an opportunity to teach us to be like him. Yep. [00:51:22] Speaker B: Well, and I love how Luke finishes this. [00:51:25] Speaker A: Okay. [00:51:26] Speaker B: Because you go to Luke and we're going to have. We're going to have. After the baptism, you have the. The voice from heaven and the dove that descends upon Christ. [00:51:36] Speaker A: And the witness, you have representation of Jesus and three people in this story. [00:51:42] Speaker B: Yes. [00:51:42] Speaker A: Not people necessarily, but birds are people, too. Who cares? Somewhere J.D. solinger from the grave is like, yeah. He's always talking about how horses are at least human. I was like, that's a great line. Catcher in the Rye. All right. Yeah. You have three representations of Jesus in this story. [00:52:04] Speaker B: You do, and then you're going to have Christ. We talked about this. He's going to step into the wilderness and go through his trials. And we're not going to hit on that in this lesson because that's actually going to be part of another week's discussion when we talk about the trials of Christ and what he does while he's in that wilderness. But Luke is going to finish this up by going through his genealogy so we saw Matthew's genealogy, and Matthew was willing to leave names out and add names in. And he's trying to connect it to David and he's trying to connect it to Abraham. We saw John's genealogy where he says, look, this is God and nothing else matters. That's the most important thing ever. Luke, I think, is going to tie up what we've been talking about with this baptism better than anything, because he's going to give a complete accounting of all of Christ's descendants. And he starts, and it's kind of interesting when he starts verse 23. And Jesus himself began to be about 30 years of age, being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph, who was the son of Heli. He has that little note, as was supposed, because he's not the son of Joseph, he's the Son of God. But he says, for argument's sake, let's just go through this line where Christ comes, who's the son of Joseph? And then he's going to go through all of these names and where it gets beautiful. I know, Nate, you love the begatting, but I'm going to skip most of the begatting and go to verse 38, which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. And so Luke brings it all the way back to God again, like John does. But rather than leave everyone out, he includes everyone in that list to say, we are all connected to God. And it started with God and it finished with God, but it didn't finish with God without including all of us in between in that line. So it's a beautiful message right there in Luke's genealogy. [00:54:16] Speaker A: It's awesome. Great. I mean, is there anything else you wanted to hit on real quick, or was that the meat of the lesson? [00:54:29] Speaker B: I think that was it. [00:54:30] Speaker A: I feel good about that as well. I know that that's kind of what we wanted to highlight. I. I am fully aware that most Sunday school classes over the next week are gonna highlight, you know, ad nauseam, how much the. You know, which again, I get it, about how Jesus was setting a perfect example for us, and I totally agree with all that I am hoping. And again, like, I. I feel like we even our conversation tonight is just barely scratching the surface of the depths of kind of what these things that Jesus is doing shows us. And it's more than just an example of being baptized in our opinions. I really hope, though, that those of you listening, your minds have already gone to all of the other places, right. That, that you've, you, you're already starting to put some of those other connections together. Because I just, and I'm hoping that you'll be willing to share those experiences with your various classes or if you don't, you know, if, or even if you don't go to those classes, that hopefully you'll have made some, some deep connections tonight. And, and the only reason I say that is because I think that. But ultimately, what these examples are showing is how much God loves us. Through us trying to figure it out, through us blowing it, through us being very imperfect. There's always going to be Satan there telling us that that makes us bad and that it's not worth trying to fix because we're just going to blow it again. And he's the one, he's the one that's going to be always there just to beat us when we're down. Hopefully when you start realizing that all of these things that Jesus does all throughout the New Testament and that we learned about so much in the Old Testament is to remind us constantly how connected we are with God at all times, including the good things we do and including the times that we're screwing up and trying to learn from it. So hopefully that is the, hopefully that's the overall message that you guys get out of the discussion tonight. Anything else, Jason? [00:56:51] Speaker B: You know, if I can tackle one more thing, please, that I thought here, in hindsight, Nate and I probably should have mentioned this a lot earlier. [00:56:59] Speaker A: It's okay, let's do it. [00:57:01] Speaker B: When we, when we talk about baptism for eight year olds, and we usually have one talk on baptism, one talk on the Holy Ghost, right? And so many times I feel like the message of baptism is all about cleansing us from our sins in the sense like baptism is like taking a bath. And we say, you know, you're going to come in all dirty and you're going to come out all dressed in white and you're spotless. And that's what baptism is all about. And I feel like, you know, it works on a certain level, but I don't know that, that it's. If that was the purpose of baptism, going back to what you said, Nate, why then was Christ baptized? It can't just be about making you clean. And I feel like that does a little bit of a disservice in the sense that if that was my understanding and my impression, then what do I do next week when I get dirty again? And then we talk about the sacrament, renewing our covenants. But I Don't feel like that's. It's not the same, right. You're not just dunking yourself in the baptism, make yourself clean, because Christ didn't do it to clean himself. And I feel like there's so much more to baptism that we miss. And the idea that the water represents the grave and the baptismal font, like in the temple, you put it below ground and you're going down and you're descending the waters, and the fonts, usually ground level in the chapel, and you go in and you're being put in there. In the New Testament, we'll talk about this later this year, it's explicitly stated that you are buried in the water as if it's death, and it's a symbol of death. And then when you're pulled out of the waters, it's a symbol of life again. And here you have a God who was coming to John and saying, here I am going to die, just like all of you, and yet I will find my way back out of the grave. And because I will, you will, too. This is a message of hope and salvation, not just a message of a bar of soap in a tub, but this idea that we can live again is a promise that's pointing us not to right now, but to look forward to if you prevenant from this day forward, it's not. You're done, you're clean. That's it. That's all. Baptism's old. It's done. You're 8 years old, and you finished it, right? This is the door in which you start. And so if it's just the door, it's supposed to point us to a path that leads down to death and resurrection. When you come out of that water, you are also coming out of the grave. And it's a journey. The Hebrew word for heaven is shamayim. There is water. And so if you look up in the sky and they say the waters from above the earth and the waters below the earth, and that the sky, there's waters up there. In order to pass through the sky into heaven, to get where God lives, you have to pass through the waters. You have to pass through the waters of baptism. And so this is a covenant that there is more to this life, and there is something to hold on to, to hope for. And it's a promise that if you follow me, I will raise you from the dead, I will raise you from your falls, from whatever it is, your troubles, your tribulation. Because water is often also associated with drowning troubles, being overwhelmed, overcome. And I can lift you from that. So I think that baptism is also a lot more deep and rich than what we give it credit for, how we understand it. [01:01:08] Speaker A: Totally agree. Completely agree. [01:01:11] Speaker B: Maybe it's even worth noticing, Nate, when you look at mythology, what happens in Greek mythology when you die, you cross. [01:01:19] Speaker A: The river, the river Styx, right? Yeah. [01:01:22] Speaker B: And they put coins on the eyes of the dead, and they're doing that to pay the boatman. So whether you're looking at it from a Christian perspective or even a pagan perspective, you don't get far in the underworld without passing through the water. [01:01:40] Speaker A: Awesome. What are we talking about next week? [01:01:43] Speaker B: Next week we talk about Christ in the wilderness and the temptations that he goes through and this defining moment before he begins his teaching. [01:01:51] Speaker A: Can't wait. Thank you, everybody for listening. We are incredibly humbled. Our numbers have been unbelievably, like, great this year. I hope that that means that you appreciate the work that we're doing because we're trying our best as we can. Please continue to send us your questions. Please continue to send us all of your comments and feedback and your. Your understanding and perspective and. And insight on stuff. We read everything that you send us. We are always floored by the incredible perspective that you guys have. And we, We. We will make sure to try to respond to all of those things. But we again, just want to say thank you so much for listening. If you want to get a hold of us, you can email us@hi weeklydeepdive.com if there's nothing else. I guess we'll see you next week. [01:02:50] Speaker B: See ya. Sa.