John 2 – 4

[00:00:15] Speaker A: Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the Add On Education Network. The podcast where we take a look at the weekly come follow me discussions and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here in the studio with our friend in the show's producer, Nate Pifer. Hey, Nate. [00:00:32] Speaker B: Nate. Hey, buddy. [00:00:35] Speaker A: It's good to be back together again. Always recording another episode. [00:00:40] Speaker B: I love being back together and recording more episodes. [00:00:44] Speaker A: And we got a lot of great things to talk about this week. [00:00:47] Speaker B: All right, well, let's jump right in. [00:00:48] Speaker A: All right, well, just to give you guys a quick overview, we're talking about John chapters two through four. It's going to start off with the marriage feast in Cana. It's going to go into Nicodemus talking to Christ and asking him some questions. And we get the woman at the well in Samaria when Christ is on his way and talks about living waters and Christ healing a nobleman's son. So we're going to go explore some fun territory. [00:01:15] Speaker B: I'm really excited because you're going to be talking about the wine again, kind of like what we talked about last week. I do just want to say, just so that we don't have to rehash all of that stuff, we did a really pretty thorough deep dive last week into the old wine and the new bottles, how we kind of did the paradig shift of Christ being the old wine and not the new wine, like we've always kind of thought. So I did just want to preface that before you jump right into John chapter two for anybody that would be confused about why we would be referring to Jesus as the old wine. That's why, if you want to know why, go back and listen to that. Is that fair? [00:01:55] Speaker A: Yes. [00:01:55] Speaker B: Okay, let's get going. [00:01:57] Speaker A: So John chapter two, we're going into the marriage feast here, verse one and the third. [00:02:03] Speaker B: Is it Jesus, marriage or not? Jason, this is what we do. We make bold claims and then we back it up. [00:02:11] Speaker A: So if you read James Talmage, I do a lot. He makes a very interesting argument that this could be Christ's wedding. And I look at the evidence here. Who's invited to the feast? [00:02:30] Speaker B: This is why I love this podcast, baby. Keep going. [00:02:34] Speaker A: Christ is invited. His mother's invited. So you think maybe this is family of Jesus, but also Christ's disciples are invited. So now you're starting to get friends. And it's not just that they were invited. Right. When we go into here, verse two of chapter two, and both Jesus was called and. And his disciples called. So when you're talking about being called to the wedding, you're talking about being principal guests. [00:03:01] Speaker B: And not only were they just hanging out with him because he was involved, right. [00:03:06] Speaker A: They're making that. That extra statement that not only are they just going because he was. It says specifically they were called. So perhaps there's some family relationships between Christ and his disciples, or perhaps they're close friends with the groom. And so it's an interesting question. And they wanted wine. The mother of Jesus saith unto him, they have no wine. And Jesus saith unto her, woman, what have you to do with me? Mine hour is not yet come. Which seems offensive and, like, lack of patience maybe. Like, what are you doing? It's not my time to show miracles or to present myself, if that's what he's saying. But you look at how she responds to this. His mother saith unto the servants, whatsoever he saith unto, you do it. She's not responding in a negative way to what he said. So culturally, maybe this sounds harsh, but it's not as harsh as what it sounds. But for her to be coming to him to ask him to provide for it, maybe she's doing it just because of his divine nature, and she knows that he miraculously can. Or maybe there's some responsibility on this family to be providing the wine. [00:04:22] Speaker B: And if that's the question, why is it Mary's responsibility? [00:04:27] Speaker A: And that's the question. And that's. And I think that's the evidence that James E. Talmadge brings up right when you're looking at Jesus the Christ, if it's their responsibility to provide wine for the guests, then is he the groom? It's a good question. [00:04:41] Speaker B: It's a great question that we have hands or two. [00:04:45] Speaker A: Do we? [00:04:46] Speaker B: Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. [00:04:48] Speaker A: This is where I split a little bit from this. [00:04:50] Speaker B: Oh, interesting. [00:04:51] Speaker A: So if Christ and his family are responsible for the wine, do you think they would leave it up to the last minute for him to provide a miracle? [00:05:03] Speaker B: Okay, let me ask this. Okay, first of all, no, I don't. To answer your question, I don't think that they would be unprepared. But at the same time, what if a lot of people ended up coming to this thing? Jesus had to feed however many thousands of people with a couple fishes and a couple. And again, I realized that was off the cuff, but fair point. But the thing is, way more people showed up to that situation than they were expecting in the first place and stayed way longer than they expected to in that situation. So I'm just saying this will not be the only example of way more people coming. And let me throw this last thing out there too. [00:05:41] Speaker A: Let's hear it. [00:05:45] Speaker B: This is after the baptism, right? This is after the wilderness. This is after, by the way too. We have actually a miracle before this. [00:05:55] Speaker A: Chronologically, right, potentially with the healing of the leper. [00:05:58] Speaker B: Okay, so this is what I'm saying. If chronologically you have now Jesus starting to even kind of get a little bit of a name for himself. Maybe these weren't even invited people that were coming to this thing. Maybe this was a completely planned for wedding and they had everything prepared for. And way more people ended up showing up to this thing because of who it was. Maybe they found out about it. So all I'm saying is that there are other possibilities that there may have been people coming to this, that, that they weren't prepared for coming to this thing. [00:06:34] Speaker A: All great questions. And then let me follow that up with one more question. If you're the mother of the groom and you're hosting this massive party of people and you're concerned because more people showed up than what you were expecting, would you go to the groom, who should be in the chamber with the bride, and trouble him with the details of preparing and providing for the group when they're celebrating his moment, or would you be going to maybe the disciples or someone else and saying, we need to bump this up, like, what role is he playing here? [00:07:11] Speaker B: Okay, hold on though. Okay, this is a great question, but I'm just like, I'm just thinking of this purely through the most human lenses that I possibly can. And I think that you can't take away from the fact that Mary probably would have been going to Jesus being like, again, let's just assume for sake of argument that this is his wedding. Yes, you're right. The groom should have been somewhere else. But could Mary have basically been like, not. You're the reason that all of these extra people have shown up, but just as like a, in a moment going, who's the person here that would probably actually be able to help me most with this situation and know what to do. Remember, like, Jesus isn't 12 anymore, right? Like he's not 10. He's not a young kid anymore. I could absolutely see Mary just going to him, just like, hey, this is becoming a way, way, way more massive thing. Like, help me out here, what can we do? And then Jesus impatiently, not impatiently, but like going like, hey, this isn't my time. Maybe isn't about, this isn't my time. To be performing miracles. But, like, this is not. Now is not the time that I'm supposed to be worrying about this because of all of the other things that I'm probably responsible for as part of this right now. Why are you asking me about this? And Mary going, oh, yeah, I mean, that's a good point. You're right, son. I'm sorry. I'm just freaking out a little bit here because there's way more people here than we thought there was supposed to be. I don't know. I'm just saying that that's a possible scenario. [00:08:48] Speaker A: I want to follow this up in support of what you're saying. [00:08:51] Speaker B: Oh, really? I was like, you can keep following it up with more questions, but, like, I can still see this as a human. Human interaction here. [00:08:57] Speaker A: I'm going to reread verses 2 and 3. And both Jesus was called and his disciples to the marriage and when they wanted wine. So who's they referring to? Because before we were reading it as when the guests wanted wine. But go back to who is the subject that was talked about just a second ago when both Jesus was called and. And his disciples to the marriage and when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto them, so maybe Mary didn't approach them. Maybe they went to Mary and said, hey, we need more wine. Maybe this isn't Mary coming to them. [00:09:36] Speaker B: She's just like, guys, I got to be honest with you. We are running low. [00:09:40] Speaker A: Yeah. They come to her and say, we need to bring some more out. And so it is not like she is going to the groom to trouble them. The groom's coming to her and saying, we have got this and we need to do this. And she's saying, what do you want? We didn't prepare for what you just brought. [00:09:54] Speaker B: Let me ask you one more question, too. I know, again, and this probably actually has an answer. I'm only throwing this out there, but Jesus and his disciples, right throughout Christ's ministry, I know he had his main core of disciples, but he also had a lot of people that were disciples of his that would follow him around. So not just the 12. And again, we learn about this. We tell all these stories about how sometimes Jesus had to separate himself from these groups of people wanting to learn from Jesus and wanting to be taught by Jesus or healed by Jesus, who were also not part of the twelve disciples, but were very much disciples of Christ at the time, too. And I'm not even suggesting that this is. But I'm saying, especially with years of translation and various things Maybe. Maybe this isn't just specifically about Jesus and 12 other people, but maybe Jesus and, like, the. You know, like his traveling group of disciples, you know, I mean, it's like there's maybe more than just 13 people being referenced here, is all I'm saying. And I don't know how many people that would be. I'm just saying there is a chance in this world that that doesn't mean just 13 people freaked Mary out going, Hey, 13 of us want wine. And her going, like, I don't know how we're going to do that. It's like, no, you could be like, yeah, just go take some from. You know, just go steal some from that table. But it's like, could this also be Jesus plus, like, the following that he had begun to accumulate? [00:11:31] Speaker A: And I'm going to answer that with yes and no. [00:11:33] Speaker B: Okay. And here's where this is what I'm saying. So I'm throwing it out there. [00:11:36] Speaker A: Here's where I'm going to say no. I'll start with no, and then I'm going to switch to yes. [00:11:39] Speaker B: All right? [00:11:41] Speaker A: First off, Christ hasn't even called all 12 yet. [00:11:44] Speaker B: Okay. So it would be less than 13 people. [00:11:47] Speaker A: Yeah. So we're talking. He doesn't even have his full 12 yet. It's very early on, and he hasn't. I don't know that he's had the chance to amass even his first 12, let alone his 70, let alone. I don't know if he's created the name for a himself for John. This is right off the bat, starting. But now I'm going to switch, because when he's going to prepare this. Let's just look at how much wine is potentially being created here. Verse 6. And there were set six water ports. Excuse me. And there were set there six water pots of stone after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. [00:12:30] Speaker B: Firkins? [00:12:31] Speaker A: Firkins. [00:12:33] Speaker B: First we get cubits, which is, like, boring. And then we get firkins. [00:12:36] Speaker A: Firkins, yeah. [00:12:37] Speaker B: I love that. So a firkin, mystical animal from, like, Ireland. [00:12:43] Speaker A: And. And they're talking. They're stone pots, but they're used for purification, for bathing. When we're talking about firkins, firkins are about nine gallons. [00:12:54] Speaker B: Whoa. [00:12:55] Speaker A: So when you say two to three firkins, you're talking anywhere from 18. [00:13:00] Speaker B: These are like barrels. [00:13:01] Speaker A: Yeah, 18 to 27 gallons. All right. In a firkin. [00:13:06] Speaker B: All right. [00:13:07] Speaker A: And then you take that and you multiply it by six. [00:13:10] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a lot of firkins. [00:13:14] Speaker A: That's a lot of gallons and a few firkins. You're talking. You're talking about the ability to produce 130 to 200 gallons of wine. [00:13:34] Speaker B: This is a party. [00:13:35] Speaker A: Now you're talking. Now, if we take this to modern terms, because typically I don't think anybody goes to the store and purchases a gallon of wine. [00:13:50] Speaker B: Maybe they do, but there's a lot of other things that need to be figured out if that's the case. [00:13:54] Speaker A: I mean, I'm not the expert in potent potables here. [00:13:58] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. [00:13:59] Speaker A: Okay, but if we were to break this down to bottles, you're talking about, Christ here is now creating access to 1,000 bottles of wine. [00:14:15] Speaker B: I mean, if Jesus and his four disciples at this point came up and said, hey, mom, we need some wine at this thing, and she went into full panic mode and said, cool, can you basically just throw us a spring break kegger, then that would be scary to me. If there needs to be that many bottles of wine for seven people, that just doesn't make sense logically. [00:14:40] Speaker A: So going back to your question, you bring up a very interesting point when you say, could have people. I didn't quite say that. Right. Could more people have shown up than what was anticipated? And you look at what he prepared for, and I don't know, because it doesn't necessarily say that all of this was converted to wine. Right. So we read on. And he saith verse 8, and he saith unto them, draw out now and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bear it. So when they're drying out and bearing it, that's what being consumed. And maybe that's all that's getting converted to wine is what's being drawn out. So he's taken and created a surplus, a stock that could be here substantially more than what they could ever want. And maybe that's the point, maybe that's the symbolism behind the miracle, is to say, what I give is so much more than what people could want. And take that in consideration. When he has the discussion we're going to talk about a little bit later today with the Samaritan at the well, when she's thirsting and, well, she's drawing the water, he asks her for a drink. And then he says, I could provide you with water where you would never have to dip in the well again. It's an overabundance of water. Not just one drink today, but more water than you could ever need for your whole life. So going back to this is a thousand bottles of wine, more wine than they could ever need at this occasion. And that's the point. Or is he providing for an enormous crowd and they had already provided wine for a decent sized crowd and ran out because they were overly surprised with how many people came? Or is all of this symbolic of the, the wedding feast and the idea that who is going to show up is not just those that were invited? It's much more than that. Right. This marriage is talked about all throughout the New Testament. It's been prepped for all throughout the Old Testament. This marriage might be ambiguously talking about Christ's own marriage, even if it wasn't him being married, because it's symbolically representing his marriage to the church. So going back to, I guess the original question was this Christ marriage. Arguably, yes. Symbolically, absolutely, literally, potentially. [00:17:20] Speaker B: And it's not important if it is literally, right. I mean, in the long scheme of things, like, it's fun to have our, you know, our world flipped upside down a little bit sometimes when we, when we read some of these stories. And, and by the way too, like, I don't want to miss the opportunity to talk about what I gave such a Beautiful intro to Five, 10 minutes ago in this thing, which is there is still, I think it's important that we talk about the old wine, new wine in relationship or in context to this story too, because I think that there's. I don't think it's coincidental that they were. These two things are butted right up against each other. [00:17:56] Speaker A: Yeah, we finished talking about that old wine, new wine last week. And here you have Christ that's creating this wine. And the governor of the feast is saying, why did you hold out, right, this, what we're drinking right now, which is ladles dipped out of a stone basin of water, is better than the old wine. [00:18:15] Speaker B: And what tastes better, old wine or new wine? [00:18:17] Speaker A: An old wine, 100%. Right. And it's not that it's more alcoholic. Right. The wine isn't fermenting and becoming more alcoholic over time, but it's refining its flavor, it's refining its taste. And it's fascinating because Christ is saying, you know, if the old wine's better, and yet here he has given them something. What's more original or older than wine? I mean, almost take it right back to the water where it all came from. I don't know. [00:18:53] Speaker B: I think that it is important, though, to illustrate the detail that you just mentioned, though, when we are talking about, when we read that story of the old wine and the new bottles with the new paradigm shift of Christ not referring to himself as the new wine, but of the better tasting, the. The old wine, that is the tried and true, the proven. And then when you do bring up this. That's why I'm saying that little detail in there, I think is just a really kind of crucial detail to the point that we're trying to make, which is Christ is referring to himself as the old wine. The better, the more proven thing that you have a lot of people coming in, trying to be the new wine that eventually is going to burst, the church is going to burst. You have all these things knowing then that. Whatever. Knowing then. Kind of the stuff we talked about last week as we read these stories going forward. Just keep that in mind as we kind of talk about wine, because there's going to be the wine press, there's going to be a lot of other. [00:19:55] Speaker A: Wine discussion, wine references throughout the New Testament. And there's a reason, there's a significance, there's a symbolism there. But it's also really important to note. It's not even explicitly stating that he turned the water into wine is the miracle that he turned water into wine, or that when people tasted the water, it tasted better than any wine that they've ever tasted. And here you have this water wine comparison, and Christ is going to go on and refer to himself as the water that people drink, that he's the everlasting water. And this wine, water comparison is fascinating because what do you see on the cross? [00:20:34] Speaker B: Yes. Blood and water. [00:20:36] Speaker A: When they go to thrust the spear in there, you're expecting wine, right? Not wine. You're expecting blood, which is symbolic of wine. And instead you see water. And so in this case, it's almost the miracle reversed. It's wine turned to water, where at the start he was turning water to wine. So there's a lot of symbolic stuff happening here with this miracle and him being. [00:20:58] Speaker B: Well, there's all the images of childbirth. There's all the images of life being created and life ending. Right. Like the water and wine, which by. [00:21:05] Speaker A: The way includes both blood and water, the amniotic sack and the blood that. That happens. [00:21:11] Speaker B: Exactly. So the, the water wine thing is going to be tied together for, I mean, forever, I guess. You know what I mean? But definitely kind of as we're going through the New Testament here. So I just wanted. I just didn't want to blow past that too quick without reiterating that, which. [00:21:24] Speaker A: Is kind of cool that that wine later on, at least in, In. In. In our church, got replaced with water in the sacrament, where both had that very similar relationship and that symbolism that. That it's tied to Christ. Either way, love it. [00:21:39] Speaker B: Let's keep going. [00:21:40] Speaker A: All right, moving on. I was going to see if there's anything else. We wanted to talk about the wedding, but I think we. Well, no. Verse 11. [00:21:50] Speaker B: At least we know who Jesus was marrying at the time. As we'll read later on after Jesus is resurrected and Mary comes and he tells him not to embrace her. If we actually translate that correctly, embrace me, not. [00:22:09] Speaker A: Nate, you've hit fast forward, man. [00:22:11] Speaker B: Okay, I'm sorry, we gotta back this up, okay? My brain's just. Look, you're not the only one. That brain can just hit light speed on accident and not being able to pull it back. [00:22:20] Speaker A: I'm sorry. I love it, Nate. I love it. No, where I wanted to wrap this up is verse 11, the beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee and manifested forth his glory. And John makes a point saying this was his first miracle. In fact, he's going to wrap that up when we finish up today. Chapter four, the very last verse. And this again is the second miracle that Jesus did. You will notice that John is numbering these miracles. And as you mentioned, Nate, didn't Christ potentially perform miracles before this? And for one, when Mary talks to Christ and her response, verse 5, his mother saith unto the servants, whatsoever he saith unto you, do it. She has to be somewhat experienced with him and his nature and what he's capable of him for her to make that kind of statement. Whatever he says do it, he can do it. And you have the stories of his childhood we talked about last week and weird miracles that don't really count. So why is John and I see a parallel with what Matthew did in the genealogies when he's leaving people out and weaving people in. John has an agenda when he goes through these miracles and he is going to start amping them up. And it is interesting because he is going to go through this record and declare seven miracles throughout the life of Christ. And this introductory one starts with water and wine, which is an interesting way to begin the miracles. And maybe there is some symbolism in that. If you guys want to explore it or send us in some comments, we would love to hear your thoughts on the subject, why John started with this one. But if that's the case, what do we expect number seven to be? Each miracle is going to get more progressive, more powerful. And the number seven in Hebrew is completion, perfection. It's got to be the wrap up right. Seven days in a week. [00:24:18] Speaker B: So resurrection. [00:24:19] Speaker A: So resurrection. And so you would think the atonement would be miracle number seven. Is that not Christ's greatest miracle? And when you go to the record of John, miracle number seven is not his atonement. It's the raising of Lazarus from the dead. And I find a lot of significance in this because Christ could have raised himself from the dead. He did raise himself from the dead. And what's the purpose of raising yourself from the dead? And how great is that? It's not nearly as significant as him raising everyone else from the dead. And that outward, the fact that he's. [00:25:07] Speaker B: Not just doing it selfishly, he's not just doing it for himself. [00:25:10] Speaker A: He's not the center of attention. And his culminating event isn't about him saving himself. No, it's about him saving everyone else. And I feel like that's the message of John. This is a message about Christ coming here, not to prove how great he was, not to show off and saying, I'm the son of God. Look at the miracle of the bread being turned to stone. I say the miracle, the temptation of the bread being turned to stone, of. [00:25:43] Speaker B: The stone being turned to bread. [00:25:45] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:25:46] Speaker B: Because that would be the worst miracle ever. [00:25:50] Speaker A: Unless you were in a fight, maybe. [00:25:53] Speaker B: I mean, like, legitimately, that would be the worst miracle ever. I can say that definitively. [00:26:00] Speaker A: Look at the temptation to turn the stone to bread. Christ turns it down. But look at how many times this miracle included, when Christ is feeding everyone else and turning water to wine or turning loaves of bread to much more bread or fishes and feeding people with nothing. He's not shy to perform that same miracle that Satan tempted him with. The only difference is one is doing it for himself, the other is doing it for everyone else. [00:26:35] Speaker B: You remember when Moses hit the rock, right? [00:26:38] Speaker A: Yes. [00:26:38] Speaker B: It's the same thing, really. Right. It's. What was the purpose behind it that got him in trouble? Right? Was it. Did. Did Moses hit that rock and have water come out of it to go, hey, everybody, I know you're really thirsty. Let me perform this miracle? Or did he do it because everybody was harassing him and he was just like, oh, you don't think I could do this? Blank. You know, and so. So I do. I like that you're highlighting that the purpose behind those two things changes everything about it, which is a thing that we just hammered home all last year with the New Testament. Old Testament. I'm sorry, is that so many of the things that we. That we read about as People getting in trouble for are things that happen later that God was commanding them to do. Adam and Eve, like, I mean, really right back to the garden, it's all about, are you doing that because Satan told you to do it? Even if it's the quote unquote right thing? You know? And so again, I guess I'm just glad we're, we're illustrating and highlighting that this is. Because this is your day to day lesson to take from this, I think, right? Maybe not day to day, but this is the thing that we look at in, in this life is that there's, that's sometimes the finest of lines between, are you doing it for selfish reasons or are you doing it truly for the good of other people? And by the way, sometimes it's, it's good stuff, right? It's hard not to, you know, it's hard. Again, like I look at a politician, right? Like, are they, are they, are they doing this thing to actually help people? Are they doing it so that on their next campaign ad they can be like, look how great I am, right? And again, in theory, the same good thing was accomplished. But so many times where pride eats us and gets us is when we let, when we do things, even if they're good things, we're doing them for slightly the wrong, you know, a different reason. And that's kind of what I feel like changes the whole dynamic of that, that thing. Yes, Jesus was probably starving and probably Heavenly Father would have had zero problem whatsoever if he'd have been like, I'm going to turn this rock into a loaf of bread because I know you'll provide for me. Right? Like, that doesn't seem like a out of bounds miracle by any means. But when it's Satan coming to you and going like, hey, prove to me that you can do this, hey, I mean, if you really could do this, why won't you just. It's like, you see what I mean? It's like that subtle tweak changes everything. [00:29:11] Speaker A: Well, and it's the same thing we see in the priesthood today, right? You can't put your hands on your head and give yourself a blessing. It's all about serving other people. You can't serve yourself with it. I think that's all I had on the miracle at Cana. [00:29:25] Speaker B: Okay, great. [00:29:27] Speaker A: All right, moving on. And this is interesting because Jesus goes into Jerusalem at Passover and this is early on again, right at the start of his deal. And this is where he drives them out. He creates a cord and scatters them and says, you're turning my father's house into a den of thieves. And Passover is the time where everybody does need to go buy their sacrifice and they need to offer the sacrifice. And you see there a money making opportunity. If everybody needs to do this, there's a chance that we can. And even go back to what you were saying just a second ago, Nate, how can we change this into an opportunity for ourselves? If everybody needs this, then am I not doing good by providing it? But can I also do good by providing it and get a little commission for myself for doing it at the same time? [00:30:19] Speaker B: Off the top? Yeah. You know, it's funny. It's like, it's that it's. To me, it's like that's the point, right? Is it's that. That fine of a line sometimes between the decisions we do or the actions we do. It's what you just said. I want to ask you a question about this too, and you don't have to answer it now. Maybe it's something to think about. Do you think Jesus would have reacted the same way later on in his ministry as he did this early in his ministry? I just want you to think about that. I don't know if there's an answer to that. I mean, I'm not saying that as a leading thing. It's just something as I've been reading through it this week. I've always loved this story because I love the righteous anger, you know what I mean? And again, it's a conversation I've actually even had. It was, again, I love how sometimes when I'm doing a good job of trying to diligently stay in the scriptures, I see it play out so much in my life. But I was having a conversation this week specifically with some friends here at the studio about our feelings or emotions. Good or bad is an emotion. Good or bad. And the conclusion a lot that I came to is that an emotion itself isn't good or bad. Like, it's not a. It's. That's not a quantifiable thing. It's. It's what you do with that emotion, right? And that even sadness and anger and depression, we can't just conveniently put those in little boxes of that's a bad emotion. It's like, no, no, no, that's. That's a natural emotion. That's. You know what I mean? Like, that's, that's just as real as happiness. It's what you do, action wise, that makes that emotion either not the emotion itself, but that's What? It's a lot easier to be like, that behavior is bad. Right? Feeling sad isn't in and of it by itself bad because that's a natural thing. That's part of a grieving process. You know what I mean? That's a real, real thing. And so when you see this story of Christ in the temple, I've always loved this story because I'm like, see, you can be angry and like, you know what I mean? It's like you can be perfect and still like be righteously angry or whatever. Right? But I've had to kind of walk that back quite a bit as I'm reading this now with a little bit more like fresh perspective on life and things. But it is an interesting, It's a question that at least just popped in my brain where I was just like, I wonder if Christ, a week before he's about ready to be crucified, would react the same way as he did kind of right at the beginning of his ministry. And so, I don't know. [00:33:01] Speaker A: I'm going to go again, Nate, with yes and no. I want to first comment on emotions because you said it very well. If wrath was a bad thing, then, jeez, God would be in hell. [00:33:16] Speaker B: That's right. [00:33:17] Speaker A: The wrath of God is all throughout the Bible and he's not just mad. Look at Christ personified here in the New Testament, who we look at the figure of love, Patience, who groans within himself, who quips against the Pharisees and. [00:33:33] Speaker B: The Sadducees, who by the way, talks about separation. [00:33:38] Speaker A: Yes. [00:33:39] Speaker B: Like, I read this thing in passing. It's just like it was a poll that was just like, did Christ preach more about unity or more about separation? And everybody's like, unity, unity, unity, unity, unity, unity. How dare you even suggest it. And it was funny because it was like, if you actually want to read the words, Christ is very clear that he's like, I mean, dude, I mean, we're talking about separating like the wheat from the tares and the chaff. You know what I mean, dude? I mean, we are talking about separation and the removal of, of bad from good from the get go. And it's interesting again, just to, to your point too. It's like, I'm glad you brought this up. Is that this kind of reimagined idea of Jesus as, like, you said, all just like love, peace, kumbaya, like, hey, let's everybody just get along. Like, that's, that's just not what the actual record says. And even though, yes, we are told to be one yes. We are told whatever we do, that by separating, like we become one. We become one with God by the process of separation. [00:34:55] Speaker A: A man cleaves to his wife. [00:34:57] Speaker B: That's exactly right. We talked about the meat Abraham and God walking through. You know what I mean? A split apart piece of meat. It's like covenants were made with the idea of separation to become one. [00:35:13] Speaker A: Yes. [00:35:14] Speaker B: Anyways, continue. [00:35:15] Speaker A: And I think every emotion that we feel is godlike. We are made in God's image. [00:35:21] Speaker B: I agree. [00:35:21] Speaker A: And every emotion has its proper expression, its proper time to feel. And I think you're right. It's what we choose to do with those emotions that can then be judged as good or evil. [00:35:34] Speaker B: Yes. [00:35:35] Speaker A: The actions and how we react and respond to what we're feeling is going to be what's not godlike or very godlike. [00:35:44] Speaker B: So tell me the yes and no part of if this would have happened a week before the Last Supper, what would the difference have been? [00:35:53] Speaker A: I guess I'll reverse it this time I'll start with yes. I started with no last time. Right. I'm going to say yes in the sense that God is the same today, yesterday and for forever. And I feel like he's very consistent in the same feelings he had at the start would be the same feelings that he'd had then. [00:36:08] Speaker B: Yes, I do think the same feelings would have been there. I'm not arguing that. [00:36:12] Speaker A: And, and did he. Okay, so here comes the no. He obviously didn't act the same at the end. So. So there you have a no. But I think that the motives are different. At the beginning. What he's doing is gaining a following. He is going to be calling his 12 apostles. He is going to be gathering people and he is gaining a lot of supporters. At the end, he has to convince this people that is following him to crucify him. And now he is going to be very divisive and is going to start peeling off his supporters. So at the start here, what he is doing is extremely popular with the Pharisees. He is challenging the authority of the Sadducees and saying, you are making a wreck of this temple. And he's challenging the presence of Rome within the sacred space of the temple. [00:37:03] Speaker B: He's cleansing the inner vessel. [00:37:05] Speaker A: He's cleansing the inner vessel. But this is making a lot of the poor people happy. It's making a lot of the common people happy. It's making a lot of the Pharisees happy. And you see, this is followed up, chapter three, with Nicodemus of the Pharisees coming to him and saying, we know you're the Messiah. After this. I mean, you have our support. [00:37:24] Speaker B: Go tell that to the rest of your brethren because it's going to become a controversial topic here in a couple chapters. [00:37:30] Speaker A: But towards the end of Christ's ministry now he's got to convince this same world to crucify him. And he's going to say, if you want to live, you're going to have to eat me. And people are looking at him like, what? And he offers no explanation. And a lot of people stopped following him because it was hard. And then he says, and he's got to, he's got to get himself crucified and maybe lose some of that support to get to where he needs to be, to do what he needs to do. He's very, he's very. Everything he does is with a purpose. And it's, it's fascinating. So to answer your question, no, no, he wouldn't do the same because he's got different motivation. [00:38:15] Speaker B: But that's what I'm saying. But it wouldn't be because he felt any less. [00:38:19] Speaker A: No. [00:38:20] Speaker B: Like upset that this house was being taken. [00:38:23] Speaker A: And I don't think it's because he's going to be dealing with his emotions differently through immaturity. And maybe there's an argument there that he is. But I think that, I think that he's not acting just because of how he feels. I think he's extremely deliberate. [00:38:38] Speaker B: Deliberate. And that's actually, I completely agree with that. And that's. And again, the only. I think the reason I threw it out is because I just, I wonder if again, like, I do think that Jesus, even throughout his life and miracles learned, learned through like even of his own power. Like, I think I. Again, like, I just don't think that he was born, turned 8 years old and had all of it. You know what I mean? Was just like, I totally get it. I know this from the beginning into the end. Right. Excellent point. And so it's like, you do see, you know, and this is why, again, I love Talmadge is because, and, and I totally agree with him on this. And that is that you can see even Christ himself as he is learning the extent of his power and his. His godhood even overwhelm him at times. Right. And by the way, you, you see, you do see, man. I, and I don't want to, I don't want to like understate this. You see Christ as a deeply emotional person. He weeps, He. He. He loves. He. You know what I Mean, it's like there's. There's so many. He's angry and, and he. He acts righteously out of that anger to go and kick out people. And so, like, I want to. I just want to be fair to that when I say I don't think that Jesus was having an, like, an emotionally, like, driven reaction to kicking people out of the temple like that. It's not a temper tantrum, right? Like, I'm not saying that whatsoever. But what I am saying, as somebody who is very, very emotional, as we read, that Jesus is. I do sometimes, though, at least just. It's just a question that I just go. I wonder if towards the end if he would. If he goes. I still feel deeply this way, but I've even learned too, like, that doesn't solve anything. You know what I mean? Like, that didn't fix what I was hoping I thought that it would fix, even though I was completely in the right for doing it. And I don't know, I guess I'm just. There's a. It speaks to people like me who's an emotional person. And unfortunately, I do let that unfortunately get the best of me sometimes. And I'm. And as though I'm starting to, like, get older myself and see how that doesn't solve problems the way. And whether or not. And again, like, Jesus was deliberate. I'm giving you that. But I do look at this for me and go, maybe there is, like, something to be seen in here too, though, and wonder about, like, oh, I wonder if I can maybe overcome, you know, like, with the reactive things that I do out of emotion and be able to, like, look at Christ later, towards the end when he was very meek and very. You know what I mean? Like, are we going to assume that he. He wasn't being completely emotionally overwhelmed as he was in front of the. The Sanhedrin and they were lying about him and they were saying all this. This. You know what I mean? Just accusatory, terrible things. Are we going to strip him of emotion during that? Are we going to say, you know, while he was being able to be quiet and like a lamb before the slaughter? Are we going to just assume that he probably wasn't like that? There was probably a lot of turmoil internally, emotionally, because all he would have had to be is like, let me just break this down for you guys. Like, I have my whole life. But, like, he was able to. Man, he was able to stay calm in that situation. And it's like, man, I would love to learn how to be able to do that. [00:42:34] Speaker A: And who's to say that the story of him chasing them out towards the beginning here at the temple, being placed at the beginning where later on it's not happening, isn't also deliberate to show that same progression that you're mentioning, Whether or not he experienced that progression in this case, or maybe that was something that happened earlier on in his life that we don't even read about. Maybe part of the display and how it happened is to convey that same similar truth. And it's interesting, the symbolism between some of his deliberate acts. And it's a perfect segue to take us to what we're going to be talking about next with Nicodemus and the baptism is. Take last week's episode when we were talking about Christ separating himself from the people on the shores. And he separates himself by water, and he does it. And our point last week was, what. [00:43:35] Speaker B: Do you mean, separate himself by water? Explain that. [00:43:37] Speaker A: So when he heals the leper and then this crowd shows up and they're pressing in on him as he's teaching. The point we made last week is he goes to Peter, says, put us in the boat and launch us off a distance. And you would think that would be harder to talk to a large group of people if you're putting some water, some separation, some distance between you and them. But the point we made was the message was deserving of the appropriate atmosphere. How can a teacher focus on what he's teaching if people keep bumping him and interrupting him or jostling him? But what we didn't hit was, what's the symbolism of what he's also doing? Right? Could he not also have asked his disciples to just create a barrier, a wall of separation? But yet he's separating himself by putting himself in a boat and putting water between him and them. And think of the symbolism there that there is water between where we are and where Christ is. And if we want to get through him, we are going to have to go through the waters to get there. And Christ went through waters when he got baptized to get where he was going to be. And he says, come, follow me. And we also are going to have to pass through the water to get to where he is. And think of the Hebrew, right, Shamayim, there is water is the word for heaven. To get to heaven, to get to God, we have to pass through the waters. And so this simple act is very deliberate and carries with it a lot of symbolism as well in what he's doing. [00:45:15] Speaker B: That's a fantastic point. Great insight on that. [00:45:20] Speaker A: So we're going to. This is chapter three, verse one. There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. The same came to Jesus by night. [00:45:29] Speaker B: So it's interesting, was he worried about the look that it would be if a Pharisee was coming to tell Jesus that he was awesome? [00:45:37] Speaker A: It's an interesting question because he says here, and he said unto him, rabbi, we. So he's not just saying me, he's not saying I. So it's not like he's worried that the other Pharisees are going to see him. Because he says, we know that thou art a teacher come from God, and no man can do these miracles that thou doest except God be with him. So he's saying, we the Pharisees, we are on your side. You've got our back. And Jesus answered and said unto him, verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. So he's newfound supporters here. And he just keeps going back between this embracing versus divisive. So it's good you brought that up, Nate. Nicodemus saith unto him, how can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb and be born? Which is such a. Such a great response and shows lack of even trying to understand what the Lord's talking about here. Christ is just barely talking about creating that separation, pushing himself off on the boat and then saying, hey, I just went to John the Baptist. I had to get to water, go through water. I'm asking you to follow me. You're going to have to go through water. You're going to have to do the same thing that I did. And Nicodemus misses it and takes it. [00:46:54] Speaker B: Very literally, which you brought up, is going to be the reason a lot of people are going to fall away from him. And Christ says, you're going to have to eat me. [00:47:01] Speaker A: Yes. [00:47:02] Speaker B: And people take that literally and go, wait, wait a minute. That's a bridge too far for us, right? But this is the beginnings of a lot of these things where Christ speaks in very specific terms that we know now is like, oh, yeah, there was clearly just dripping with metaphor, with symbolism. And Christ says, you need to be born again. He's like, what am I supposed to get back in the womb? You're like, come on, bro. [00:47:30] Speaker A: Such a ridiculous thing to say, right? [00:47:32] Speaker B: Absurd response. It's like, no, clearly he wasn't saying that you have to do that. Come on, man. Come on, Nick. Can I call him Nick? [00:47:42] Speaker A: Call him Nick. That sounds good. But it does seem if you're supporting him, why. And maybe that's why he's asking the question, like, you know, I obviously missed the boat because this seems ridiculous to me. Help me understand this. [00:47:59] Speaker B: You're giving him a bit of a doubt for it being an innocent, absurd question. [00:48:03] Speaker A: But it is. But it is interesting how sometimes we're not willing to look at it. [00:48:08] Speaker B: That's what I mean, I guess. What's the lesson to learn from that? And maybe there's not something that we need to get into now. Keep going. I'm going to think about this. [00:48:15] Speaker A: Okay. And Jesus said, verily I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh, of the spirit, and that which is born of the spirit. Excuse me. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto you must be born again. Nicodemus answered and said, how can these things be? And it's an interesting talk, I think Nicodemus, in this conversation with God, and we've covered baptism and talked about it ad nauseam, I don't know that I necessarily want to go into what Christ is saying to Nicodemus here and rehash that right now. I think we get this, but verse 13, Christ drops something here, extremely profound, and it blew me away when I saw it. This is what he says to Nicodemus. And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in heaven. And there's a couple things that are going on with this verse that I want to explore. When you're saying no man goes to heaven except for he that descended from heaven, then does that mean Christ is the only one that gets to go to heaven? Are we all lost? And John has a way of saying this, because this is something that we missed in the first lesson of John. John says, no man has seen the Father except Christ. Okay, this is John 1:18. And no man has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. And what I see from these two verses is that no man can see God except through the Son. Can men see God again? No man has gone to heaven except through the Son, is how he can get there. And for John, Christ is that link. He's critical. And going back to John, chapter three, and this conversation with Nicodemus in 13. And maybe you missed it when I read this, because I've missed this my whole life. And no man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man. So who's he talking about? Jesus. Yeah. And who's talking? [00:50:41] Speaker B: Jesus. Jesus? Yeah, Jesus. [00:50:43] Speaker A: So he's talking about himself and he says, even the Son of Man. Where is he which is in heaven? Wait a second, isn't he on earth standing right in front of Nicodemus, talking to him? Why is Jesus saying that he is in heaven if he's on earth talking to Nicodemus? [00:51:04] Speaker B: It's a fantastic question that I know that you're going to have a really profound answer to this. We hope. [00:51:12] Speaker A: We sure hope. This, to me, I don't know, this hit me extremely profoundly. And I'm really glad that you talked about Christ being emotional and the emotions that he felt. You mentioned talking about standing before the Sanhedrin and what he must have felt. When we read in the New Testament, when Christ groaneth within himself and when he weeps and when he's troubled, how in the world can he refer to that as being heaven? And when you think of him on the cross, and just to give us an idea of how humiliating that must be, that the people you love, your genealogy, a descendant of David, all gathered up to mock you and see you and put King of the Jews over your cross. How embarrassing is that? To be stripped almost naked, hung up on a cross in front of the people that you love. And in the crucifixion process, you naturally want to just relax. And as you do that, it closes your airway and you suffocate. So you have to pull yourself up, but you're pulling yourself up by what? Your arms that have nails in the hand and in the wrist, torn through there. And you're having to put all of that weight and pressure where you hurt most. And by the way, if you're going to lean back on that cross, you're leaning back on your back that's been ripped and torn with the floggings that he received shortly before then. And think of how painful it is if you get a single thorn, a goat head or whatever you step on, or it pierces you. And imagine that in a crown that's wrapped around your head through this whole process. And that's just the physical pain. And think of the emotional burden and what he's suffering, taking the sins of the world on him, an agony that's described as, as worse than what we can possibly imagine. That, as James E. Talmadge puts causes his heart to potentially burst. Is this not the definition of hell? And yet he says the Son of Man is in heaven. And I think of all of these emotions that he's feeling and expressing in this, his moment, this great agony. And is it not swallowed up in the most amazing joy when he looks out and realizes, I had it in me, I finished, I could do it. This might be painful, but I just saved these people. And not just these people, but people I can't even see here right now. Maybe he could. People that hadn't been born yet, people that were going to be born. I did it. And how good could that feel to realize I did it? That victory, that love, the reason he came and did everything, must have overcome and swallowed that moment in profound joy. And is that not heaven? And if Christ had to go through hell to get to heaven and we follow him, do we sometimes have to go through hell too? But we don't have to wait to get to heaven. I think of Peter who was sinking in the water and Christ catches him and pulls him back up to the surface. Well, Christ went through the water when he was baptized and dropped down below it and was pulled up by John. And I think sometimes we get caught up in thinking that our greatest reward or heaven is something that we're not going to see here on earth, that we're going to have to wait before we see it. And we think of, oh, all the things that are going to be waiting for us in the next life. That heaven is unattainable. This far fetched idea. But for Christ to say that the Son of Man is in heaven while he is on earth means that there is heaven on earth. And as much as he groaned within himself or as much as he wept, or as much as he struggled with the people that he worked with, he was also overcome with the love for the people that he worked with and so grateful for the opportunity to be with these men and these women and to teach them and the children and to help them to see what they hadn't seen before and give them the thoughts. And he was overcome with heaven. And I'm not doing it justice. I'm not even coming close to hitting the mark. [00:56:42] Speaker B: I think you are. I think that what we can't overlook is the role of the Holy Ghost in this. Because remember the role specifically or the name specifically that Christ used for that, for the Holy Ghost was the comforter, right? And to Your point that I just want to add to, because actually, I think you're saying it flawlessly, is that is heaven the complete removal of any obstacles is heaven, in your opinion, like the. I don't know, like the just like. I don't know, like daisies and running through the forest, skipping around with, like, I don't know, fairy dust all around. I mean, to me it's like. I guess that just doesn't sound fun for me, to be totally honest with you. Or is heaven, like you said, an approach? Right. Is it happiness even with all of the other things? Is it calmness? Is it stillness? Is it quiet internally, no matter how crazy things are externally? And you brought up Peter in the boat, right? It's like there was still a turmoil, there was still an unrest in the ocean, or not the ocean, the sea, Right. Even when Christ was pulling up out of that. How safe and calm do you think Peter felt when grasping the Lord's hand? [00:58:14] Speaker A: That's. [00:58:18] Speaker B: Didn'T mean that there wasn't still waves crashing around him. And eventually, to your point, Christ does calm the sea, right? Eventually. That is the thing. And to your point, yeah. There is still something to look for. Like maybe in the next life, maybe. I don't know, but maybe that's the. Maybe the same type of turmoil is gone. Right. But I think what you're saying is incredibly important. We don't have to. We don't have. We are. We are not here to suffer. We're not here to be miserable. We're not here to lash ourselves on the back every time we do something stupid, hoping that, well, at least in the next life it'll be good, right? But I guess I just have to be miserable in this life. It's like, no, you don't. And that doesn't mean that there aren't going to always be issues and problems. But what it means is that in this life, life, to your point, Christ is also the way to have heaven while in this life as well, through the Holy Ghost, that covenant that we make each week, the promise in the prayer of that covenant that he will always be with us. Right. And that even though the storms will rage, that there is still the promise of calm and peace with the storm raging around us. And to me, like, yeah, that absolutely is heaven. And last thought on that. You said it, man. There is something so incredibly fulfilling of overcoming something, of being redeemed from something. Right? Of going through hell and coming out the other side and going, yeah, baby, you know what I mean? Like, okay, okay, all right. So that when the next thing comes along and it looks scary and it is terrifying and it might suck and be hard, the joy of battling through that and making it out to the other side, that's awesome, too, man. I don't know. I just. I don't think that. I don't think, by the way, also that heaven should ever be as simple as, like, no problems. I don't know, man. Like, I love problem solving. I thrive personally in chaos, right? Like, the whole thing that I do for my living is just like, take matter unorganized, right? And try to just create something new out of that and be surprised by it. And that's not an easy process. Not if you want it to be great, it's not. It takes sacrifice, right? But it's. That's awesome. I can't think of anything that would be more hell than just having every great idea just given to you without any work. Because then what is it, right? I don't know. Like, I think that what you're saying is completely accurate. I think you're nailing it. I only bring this up just to add a little bit of my own experience to it. But I totally agree with you. I don't think that heaven is something that we just are waiting for and that we just have to suffer and battle this whole life. I don't know. [01:01:45] Speaker A: I've had a reoccurring dream, and maybe you've had the same one, Nate. Maybe not the exact same one, but a similar one. And maybe a lot of our listeners have. If you ever had a dream, Nate, where you know you can fly. [01:01:59] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, this is. I know where you're going with this. And the answer is yes. [01:02:04] Speaker A: And I have had this dream, you know you can. And sometimes you just jump and you fall on the ground and you're like, I can do this. [01:02:11] Speaker B: Like, I know I'm in a dream right now. I know I have unlimited superhero powers. [01:02:18] Speaker A: There's something about this dream, Nate. There's something about flying, and there's something about kids jumping off of roofs of houses and barns since the beginning of time, right? There's this. And to me, heaven is like being able to fly and we're chasing it, and we know it's there. And like you say the comforter, having that spirit and having God's spirit and being in the presence of God is like flying. And we chase it and we know we can have it and we know it's there. And sometimes we jump and we fall on the ground and we just can't hit it. But when we do, it's so worth it. [01:03:07] Speaker B: I'm with you. I'm with you. [01:03:12] Speaker A: And I'm trying to. I've had experiences in my life when I've felt the presence of Christ, and I've been overcome with such love, with such comfort, with such grace, with such beautiful feelings that I don't feel like there is anything in heaven, if you will, beyond this life or whatever you imagine heaven to be, that can offer any greater than what I felt at that moment, at that time. And for those small moments in life. I was flying. And that's what it means to me, to fly. I look back at Christ when he says, the Son of Man is in heaven. He was flying. He always had heaven with him. He had that spirit that he had cultivated through his life, that presence, that closeness with God that. And it didn't matter what his situation was or what he was dealing with. He experienced heaven wherever he was. It's not this separate geographic location in some far out distant place. It's more of a condition in which we find ourselves. Love it. [01:04:36] Speaker B: All right, all right. How are we wrapping this up? [01:04:39] Speaker A: We're going to wrap this up with the tale of the woman in Samaria. And Christ is returning from Judea. He's down at Jerusalem for the Passover, and he's going back up into the Galilee where he's got his followers, his hometown where he's going. And to get there, he's going to be passing through Samaria. This is going to play a significant role. We don't have to get into the details. We'll talk about this when we talk about the Good Samaritan later this year. Let me just summarize this up a little bit when we're talking about how deliberate Christ's actions are. And I think the Chosen does a really good job of portraying this scene. And Christ's disciples go in to go find food because they haven't eaten anything. They're starving. And Christ finds himself isolated at this point. And there's a woman at the well, and he asks her to draw water from him. Think about the significance of that one action. Asking her to draw water for him. Where else did this happen, Nate? [01:05:48] Speaker B: This was in the Old Testament. [01:05:50] Speaker A: Yes. [01:05:51] Speaker B: And this is. When was it? Hold on. This is not Elijah. Was it not Elias? Hold on, hold on, hold on. Who was it? Dang it. I'm. I'm drawing a blank. [01:06:03] Speaker A: So now, now, now. [01:06:08] Speaker B: Wasn't it Elijah that was like, feed me and then. And then. And then feed. [01:06:11] Speaker A: Oh, oh, okay. I See where you're going. This is gonna be a little bit. Okay, so wait, hold on. [01:06:16] Speaker B: There was also the camels too, though. But there was also the camels. Like, I need you to get. Oh, this was when Abraham was looking for. [01:06:22] Speaker A: Or Abraham. [01:06:24] Speaker B: Abraham's servant was looking for. For Isaac's wife. And we get a. It wasn't man. [01:06:33] Speaker A: Who was it? So this happens three times, Nate. Right? [01:06:35] Speaker B: All right. [01:06:36] Speaker A: Okay. Four times. Oh, okay. Let's go through them. You've got one Elijah, who's got the widow, and he says, feed me first. [01:06:46] Speaker B: Yep, that's what I was thinking of. [01:06:48] Speaker A: Yep. I didn't even go there. So I'm like, brought that up. [01:06:50] Speaker B: We have Abraham's servant. [01:06:51] Speaker A: Abraham sends his servant to go find a wife for his son Isaac. And he says, is it Rachel that he talked to? No, that's going to be Jacob's. [01:07:00] Speaker B: Oh, that's right. That's right. [01:07:01] Speaker A: And he says the sign that I'm going to look for. So this is Rebecca. [01:07:05] Speaker B: Rebecca. That's what. [01:07:06] Speaker A: Okay. Is she's going to offer drink to not just me, but all of my camels. And we talked about how much camels drink. Right. The generosity that she has. And then you're going to see this again with Jacob, and he's going to be his wife, Rachel, right? [01:07:24] Speaker B: Yes. [01:07:26] Speaker A: And you're also going to see this, by the way, when Moses is going out leaving Egypt, and he's wandering right to Jethro, and he sees Jethro's daughter out feeding the flocks. And so this is a big deal. But in all of those cases, there's an interesting relationship here. And you look at Moses, she's going to become his bride. And you look at Abraham's son, Isaac, who, by the way, Isaac is a symbol for Christ because he's going to be carried up into the mountain and sacrificed like a son. [01:08:05] Speaker B: Right. [01:08:06] Speaker A: And that's going to become his bride. And then you're going to look at Jacob, and that's going to become his bride. So when you threw in Elijah, there's. That's like the one that just didn't quite fit the. My mind didn't go there. [01:08:18] Speaker B: Maybe it's not the same thing, but it might be. [01:08:21] Speaker A: And I'm glad you brought it up. But so here you have Christ. And so this instance, this story almost insinuates that she is going to be his bride. So if he's the groom coming for the bride, the bride doesn't recognize him. Not only does the bride not recognize him, but the bride has been unfaithful and switching between. So what's going on here? And she's coming from Samaria here. Israel has lost me. I've returned for you. Come to me. And so go back to the marriage feast at Cana. This is the marriage, and the Lord is coming to redeem his people. The difference between the woman at the well versus the Gentile woman that we see a very different treatment is she's Israel, she's his people. He's reclaiming his bride. [01:09:16] Speaker B: Fantastic. Really incredible insight into that symbolism. And I love that we're still getting the Old Testament stuff finally paying off into the New Testament stuff. So I'm glad we did such a good, deep, deep dive through the whole ot. All right, we are out of time. What are we talking about next week? [01:09:36] Speaker A: Sermon on the Mount. [01:09:38] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness. I'm so stoked about this. All right, everybody, thank you for listening. We really do appreciate it. Thank you for all of the nice comments and the great questions that you hit us up with. Thank you for sharing with your friends and leaving us the nice reviews. We really appreciate it. Jason, if there's nothing else, then let's get out of here. All right? [01:09:57] Speaker A: Okay. [01:09:57] Speaker B: Until next week. [01:09:58] Speaker A: See ya.