Genesis 3 – 4 (Re-run)

[00:00:24] Speaker A: Do you get it, Jason? Do you get it? Genesis. [00:00:27] Speaker B: Oh, boy. [00:00:28] Speaker A: Genesis. Do you get it? [00:00:30] Speaker B: I got. I got it. I got it. Well, good try, Nate. Welcome to the weekly. Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the Add On Education Network. And just for the record, I would not be opposed to having that be our intro music for the rest of the year. Good old Jeff. [00:00:51] Speaker A: You would love that, wouldn't you? [00:00:52] Speaker B: I would. I would. That's some good concentration music right there for me. [00:00:57] Speaker A: I don't. Hopefully some of. Actually, I don't even care listeners, if you don't get it. I'm sorry, I do care, but maybe I just don't. If you don't know Genesis, then I don't know what to tell you. One of the greatest, raddest rock super groups of all time. [00:01:14] Speaker B: And that's amazing cover, by the way, by Nate, the great Piper himself, as I am here in the studio with Nate. [00:01:23] Speaker A: Yep. [00:01:24] Speaker B: We are doing the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the Add On Education Network. The podcast where we take the weekly Come follow me discussion. Try to add a little insight. And you need perspective. [00:01:34] Speaker A: Yep, we do. [00:01:35] Speaker B: I am your host, Jason Lloyd. [00:01:37] Speaker A: Good job, Jason. Way to push through, dude. [00:01:40] Speaker B: And Nate, the singer Piper, with his rocking rendition. [00:01:46] Speaker A: Raucous rendition. [00:01:49] Speaker B: Amazing rendition. [00:01:50] Speaker A: Oh, thank you. [00:01:51] Speaker B: All right, so. [00:01:54] Speaker A: Do we need to start over with just like the normal music? Do you need me? Do you need me to throw it right here? Because I can. [00:02:00] Speaker B: No. Like I said, I would be great with Genesis for the rest of the year. [00:02:03] Speaker A: Or at least until we're done with Genesis. [00:02:06] Speaker B: Let's do it. [00:02:06] Speaker A: Should we just do a New Genesis tune at the beginning and not, by the way, because I don't want to get sued by Phil Collins. What if instead of a New Genesis tune each week, it's me doing a bad karaoke cover of a Genesis tune to kickstart the show each week? [00:02:20] Speaker B: I'd be okay with that, at least. [00:02:21] Speaker A: Until we're out of Genesis. [00:02:23] Speaker B: But like I said, this. This one you started with today, that's one of my favorite. [00:02:28] Speaker A: Just because I had that one on hand, because I happen to be a huge Genesis fan. I'll tell you what, if you're listening to this podcast right now, which you might have already checked out at this point, and to be totally honest with you, I don't blame you. [00:02:39] Speaker B: Don't check out. [00:02:40] Speaker A: But if you haven't checked out yet, if you want, we can do a New Genesis cover as the kickoff music as the little bump to lead into the podcast each week. And if you Want that, though. You have to email either yes or for the love, Please don't do that ever again. [00:02:59] Speaker B: Please. Yes. [00:03:00] Speaker A: So you got to say yes or no at [email protected] There you go. [email protected]. let us know if you want me doing a karaoke Genesis cover until we're out of Genesis. [00:03:15] Speaker B: Absolutely. In fact, you should. We should put a link to the full versions of your songs. Oh, you should. Including Wuthering Heights. [00:03:22] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Okay. Let's not even get into that. Let's not even open that can of worms today. All right, what are we talking about today? [00:03:28] Speaker B: We've got an awesome discussion. We're diving into Genesis 3 and 4, which is going to cover the fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. And we're going to be talking about Cain and Abel. [00:03:40] Speaker A: Love it. [00:03:41] Speaker B: And we're going to be talking about Lamech. [00:03:43] Speaker A: Lamech. [00:03:44] Speaker B: Lamech. And we have our first little taste of begatting, but not like full begats. We're getting there. We're warming up. [00:03:52] Speaker A: That's next week, right? [00:03:53] Speaker B: Next week is like a whole chapter of begats. [00:03:56] Speaker A: All right, I got you, boo. [00:03:57] Speaker B: You got me. All right, good luck, everybody. Next week, we're going to survive this together. [00:04:03] Speaker A: Next week. [00:04:03] Speaker B: Yes. [00:04:04] Speaker A: We're all in this together. I don't know if we actually can start next week with Genesis because of what I got in store for the begats. [00:04:09] Speaker B: Oh, boy. All right, first off, before we dive into today, Genesis 3, 4, we did have a question from Mike out in Oklahoma. Listening to the show, Mike was asking, why is it in Genesis that God is translated? Elohim is translated as God, but Joseph Smith translates it as God's in Abraham and Moses. The difference between gods versus God in Genesis, fair question. Elohim is translated as God with a capital G, and gods with an S. All throughout the Bible, it's the same word translated as both. And I think what the translators are doing in the Bible, they're using two different things to kind of help them make the call on whether they translate it as God or gods, and the first being the verbs that are associated with it. Because if you're saying the gods created, then the verb created would match the plural. The third person plural, they did it. [00:05:23] Speaker A: Right. [00:05:24] Speaker B: As opposed to the third singular, the he did it. So in an example for English, trying to make this a little bit more comprehensive, if you were to say they say versus he says. [00:05:43] Speaker A: Right? [00:05:44] Speaker B: If you said God and then said says, then you translate it as God. If you said that gods said, then you would translate it as gods. So that said or says kind of gives you a little bit of context on how you want to translate it. But one could make the argument that the gods is also referencing a singular group or collective group of beings to say that the gods collectively, they. They said as almost like a singular group, like the group says. So if you see the says there instead of said. And I don't know if I've just lost everybody at this point. If you're saying they said or they says, but instead of they, it's the group says, it makes sense as a collective group. You could use it. So they're using the verbs. And here in the Bible, Vayomer Elohim, it's. And he said Elohim. And so you're saying the he said and saying, okay, this should be translated as a singular person. However, when you get to verse, I believe it's 26, it says, and God said Vayomed Elohim, that he said, let us create man in our image. And now all of a sudden you are not just getting. You are getting that third person singular he said. But what he said is almost treating it like a collective group in the sense that he says, let us create. And it is very plural in the Hebrew. And the translators are true to that. You see it, let us create man in our image. So you have that plural twice. So there is a good argument to how Elohim could be translated as gods just as much in Genesis as what you see in Abraham and Moses. It is up to interpretation and what you want to do. The other thing that the translators would use to try to guide their decision on whether they are translating it as God's or God is if it's referring to Israel. They tried to scrub or redact or clean the Bible to make Israel very monotheistic. We'll see this throughout the Bible. When we hit other passages, there will be references to gods that the translators will take out or change or make it seem that Israel is a lot more monotheistic than what you see in the actual Old Testament text. So if there's any confusion or there's room where you could interpret it, either way, the interpreters are going to take it and say, what's the monotheistic reading? What's the way that's going to make this seem more logical to the religion that we believe it to be? I hope that makes sense. Hope that answers the question. Hopefully. Hopefully I didn't just muddy the waters a lot by saying that all right, thanks, Mike, for the question. Feel free to reach out. If that didn't quite explain it, we're gonna dive into Genesis 3 and 4 and see how this goes. First, as we are talking about the fall of Adam and Eve, we are going to preface this discussion with the fall of Satan. And I know we talked about his fall a little bit when we were talking about the Here am I, send me. And we kind of talked about Satan's plan in the very beginning. But let's take an opportunity as we just finished creation, we are talking about Adam in the Garden of Eden and Eve and what their fall is. They are going to interact with Satan here. And it is important to understand the fall of Satan in this context. And something that I hadn't really thought about before is the timeline of when Satan fell. And as I go through and I read some of these texts that talk about this time period, a lot of them talk about how he was cast out of heaven during the six creative periods. And I didn't really think about that, but it makes sense. Because if you talk about what happened to Satan when he was cast out of heaven, the story goes, as we understand it, he was cast to earth. How can he be cast to earth if earth hadn't been created yet? [00:10:16] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. [00:10:18] Speaker B: And if you've got Adam and Eve at the very end of this creation, on the sixth day, God creates man, and man is here on the earth, and man interacts with Satan. He has to have been cast out before day six to be here on the earth, but before day six, but after the earth is created. So sometime during this creative period. And so there are a couple of different documents that talk about that and give us a little bit of insight into that. So first, I am going to read from the Discourse on Abaddon. This is a New Testament document. This is a discussion where Peter and the apostles are talking to the Savior and they ask him the Savior's answers to the very questions by the apostles. The apostles asked the Savior so that they might be able to preach about him to all mankind. For they knew that men would ask them questions about everything. And the Savior did not wish to disappoint them about any matter concerning that which they asked him questions. So they asked them questions about the beginning and the fall of Satan. And this is Christ talking to his apostles and trying to give them as good an explanation as possible. At least that is what the text purports to be. So if you would like to read the full text, you could look it up the discourse on Avaton. [00:11:45] Speaker A: And so this is something that just obviously didn't get included in canon. Yeah, when they were. When we had the Nicene Creed or whatever was going on. Right. [00:11:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:54] Speaker A: They're all sorts of council it. [00:11:56] Speaker B: Yeah, all sorts of documents. This one's translated by E.A. budge, an amazing scholar. Okay, let's. Let's see. 1977. [00:12:07] Speaker A: Oh, killer. So it's pretty recent. [00:12:10] Speaker B: So let's dive into the part where he's talking about God creates. He commands the angels to go get him some clay so that he can make man breathe life into it. The earth is like, no, don't take me. I don't want to form man. Because man's going to be rebellious. The earth threatens to put a curse on the angels that come to grab the clay. And the angels are afraid and come back to God and say, I'm not going to do it. So God finds an angel that is willing to. To just go down there and throw caution to the wind and do his will. [00:12:46] Speaker A: Okay, all right. [00:12:48] Speaker B: Kind of a wild story. [00:12:49] Speaker A: I love these stories. These are great. [00:12:51] Speaker B: And he gets there and he puts breath into him. Let's see, let's pick up right here. And he put breath into him this way. He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life three times, saying, live, live, live, according to the type of my divinity. And the man lived straightway and became a living soul according to the image and likeness of God. And when Adam had raised up, he cast himself down before my Father, saying, my Lord, my God, thou hast made me to come into being from the state which I did not exist. Thereupon my Father set upon him a great throne. And he placed on his head a crown of glory. And he put a royal scepter in his hand. And my Father made every order of angels in the heavens to come and worship him, whether angel or archangel. And all the hosts of heaven worshiped God first of all. And then they worshiped Adam, saying, hell, thou image and likeness of God. And he intended that the order of angels who were fashioned before Adam should worship him. And my Father said unto him, their chief come, thou thyself shall worship my image and likeness. And he, being of great pride, drew himself up in a shameless manner and said, it is meet that this man Adam should come and worship me, for I existed before he came into being. And when my father saw again, this is Christ talking to the apostles. And when my father saw his great pride and that his wickedness and his evil doing were complete, he had reached their highest Pitch. He commanded all the armies of heaven, saying, remove the writing which is in his hand of the proud one. Strip ye off his armor and cast ye him down upon the earth. For his time hath come. For he is the greatest of them all, the rebellious angels. He is the head over them, and he is like a king. And he commandeth them as the general of an army commandeth his soldiers. He is the head over them, and their names are written in his hand. Thus it is with cunning one. And the names of the angels were written in his hand. And all the angels gathered together to him, and they did not wish to remove the writing from his hand. And my father commanded them to bring a sharp writing reaping knife and to stab him therewith on this side and that, right through his body to the vertebrae of his shoulders. And he was unable to hold himself up. And straightway my father commanded a mighty cherubim. And he smote him and cast him down from the heavens upon the earth because of his pride. And he broke his wings and his ribs and made helpless. And those whom he had brought with him became devils with him. [00:15:49] Speaker A: It's weird that people so casually reject the idea that Satan was in heaven with us before this life. Like, it's in the text. [00:16:01] Speaker B: There's all sorts of texts, by the way. [00:16:02] Speaker A: It's in the New Testament too. But I'm just saying, like, you read this and you're like, I wonder why this is such a. Like a hard thing. [00:16:09] Speaker B: For a sticking point. [00:16:10] Speaker A: Yeah, such a weird sticking point for the, like, other Christians to, I don't know, to understand or to buy into. [00:16:23] Speaker B: One of the texts. Paradise Lost. Was it Milton who wrote that? [00:16:28] Speaker A: Yes. [00:16:29] Speaker B: And it's amazing what he's doing from a literary perspective. He's mocking the epic hero because he says that the traits that people are idolizing in these heroes are the same traits that you find in Satan, the proud, the mighty, the arrogant. These traits that we're looking for in our hero. And because the similarities that he saw with the epic hero of his time that are being written about in the Iliad and the Odyssey and all these stories, he takes it and writes this epic story, Paradise Lost, where he makes the epic hero Satan himself, because of all of these traits, and tries to portray him as the hero, to maybe open the eyes of their audience and say, this is what we worship, this is what we find interesting. But in his. And I'm wondering if he's pulling from the same source or the other sources out there. It seems pretty rich that this Idea that Satan refused to worship man. And so man was created and Satan was asked to go and worship him. And he said, I'm not going to worship him. I'm greater than him. I was before him. I'm an angel. And then he gets cast out. So it's an interesting story. Interesting. And it's not the only perspective I'm going to read. Just a little excerpt here from Paleo Historica. And this is kind of a commentary on the Old Testament as well. Dates back quite a bit, talking about the creation. And he Sundays on the fourth day. So let me pick up on the. On the fourth day. On the fourth day, he created the sun and the moon and the stars, the clouds and the rain. And on the same day, the one who once brought the dawn, but who is now darkened. And it's interesting, they say he's the one that brought the dawn. When you go to Lucifer, the name Luz is light and Pharos is bearer. It comes from the Greek phosphorus light bearer. And it's a little bit of a translation problem from Isaiah 14. We will get into that when we dive into Isaiah, a little bit more detail. But this idea that he was the light bearer comes from this title, Phosphorus or Lucifer. So going back, let's see. On the same day, the one who once brought the dawn, but who is now darkened, saw heaven, set an orderly array and puffed up in his mind and said to himself, I will place my throne on the clouds of heaven and be equal to the Most High. By the command of God, he was hurled down from the order of the angels and deprived of his heavenly robe, and instead of light became darkened blackness. And we will come back and talk about that. It is important, this idea that he had light and instead of light became darkened blackness. He loses some glory here. Some say that because he did not make obeisance to the man after being formed by God, he was cast out. Anathema on those who speak such nonsense. So this guy thinks that's ridiculous. For the man was formed on the sixth day, but the adversary fell on the fourth day. So from this perspective, it was when the sun and the moon and the stars become visible to earth. And this idea associating with him, that he wants to set his throne above all the stars, he wants to be the greatest, that he was cast out. On day four, the light bearer, the bright star, was cast down to the earth, which would almost make more sense. Playing into the story of the idea that Satan was here before man was was here and was inhabiting this world. And when Adam is created. But in all stories, in all regards, you get this idea that there is conflict. And the conflict is not so much between Satan and Christ. It's Michael and the dragon, right? And it's Michael, as Joseph Smith points out. Michael, he says, is the one that becomes Adam. And this idea that Adam comes here receiving a body, and this idea of following Christ's plan and coming down here and keeping your first estate, receiving a second estate versus rejecting that, and this warfare that's going to be waged against Adam's posterity, this 1/3 versus these 2/3, it's kind of an interesting setting that's kind of setting us up for the story that is the Bible. [00:21:25] Speaker A: Sweet. Let's keep going. [00:21:26] Speaker B: Okay, when we talk about this, I'll circle back to that. When we talk about Adam's children, let's do make mention to the idea that Satan fell because he wanted to be like God. He asked for God's power, God's glory be his, so that he could make himself like God. That's important, as we discussed. Now let's transition the context of Adam and Eve and their fall. So in the garden, God places Adam and Eve. And it's important, I think Satan comes across as very honest in the serpent here as he's communicating with Adam and Eve. And really it's not the words, it's the perspective. So I'm going to read here the commandment that God gives to Adam and eve in chapter two, leading us into chapter three, verse 17. Let's go back to verse 16. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it. For in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die. And to me, this is what God is saying as I read this command. Of every tree you may freely eat. To me, the idea of freely means you can eat without consequence. Of every tree you can freely eat or eat without consequence, except for the tree of Knowledge. Because if you eat that, you're going to die. There's a consequence associated. So I don't want you to eat it because it'll kill you. Nevertheless, the choice is yours. Every tree you may freely eat, but of this tree you may not freely eat. Now compare that with what the serpent tells Eve in chapter three. And he said unto the woman, yea, hath God said, ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the perspective again, who's right? So God says, You may freely eat of every tree except for this one, because that one's going to have a consequence. And then Satan says, hey, God told you you can't eat of every tree. And he's right. God said that you can't freely eat of every tree. But what's the perspective, right? God's saying, here, eat everything you want. Just this one's going to mess you up. Satan says God said you can't do everything that you want. It's honest deception. I don't know. I mean, do you see the difference in what he's saying or am I? [00:24:32] Speaker A: I think so. [00:24:34] Speaker B: And it's like when you look at the commandments, whether they're liberating or whether they're captivating this idea that you can't be free because you have to follow the law. God says, you can't do this, you can't do that, you can't do that, you can't do that. [00:24:52] Speaker A: And the perspective is obviously that keeps it so that you can maintain your freedom, so that you're not subject to the negative consequences of doing the things that we're commanded not to do. [00:25:04] Speaker B: Yeah. God saying, well, actually you can freely do anything you want to, but if you do this here or you do that, there's going to be consequences that restrict you that take away that freedom. [00:25:15] Speaker A: So what are you suggesting that Satan's trying to accomplish with this? [00:25:20] Speaker B: I'm suggesting that he is going to come to these people and twist the words to make the perception of it seem more restricting than liberating. [00:25:31] Speaker A: And so is he doing that to try to what? [00:25:35] Speaker B: Well, and what he's going to say, the next thing is, hey, if you can eat of every. What about this tree? Well, we can't eat that tree. He says, well, that tree is going to make you like God. That's how God gained his knowledge. If you want to be like God, you have to eat of that tree. [00:25:54] Speaker A: By the way, there's the Satan twist right there. We talked about it last week, right? [00:26:00] Speaker B: Yep. [00:26:01] Speaker A: Where Satan will always give you two truths and a lie, but won't tell you which one's which ever. Right. Or he'll twist it just enough that, that it sounds like, oh, this is my intentions are good here. Right? Like, look, you're supposed to become like God, right? [00:26:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:19] Speaker A: Cool. This is how you do that. That's a good thing. Wait, Jason, aren't by the way, we commanded to become like God? [00:26:27] Speaker B: That's exactly it. [00:26:29] Speaker A: Oh, hey. This is how God got his knowledge. [00:26:31] Speaker B: Well, maybe, maybe. And Maybe he's being 100% honest. [00:26:37] Speaker A: Oh, by the way, or by the way too though, is that, yes, you're commanded to multiply and replenish the earth. And well, the only way that you can multiply and replenish the earth is intercourse with another human being. So to obey that commandment. Oh, it doesn't matter that you're not married. This is the way that you multiply and replenish the earth. That's the twist every time, man. [00:26:57] Speaker B: That's it. [00:26:58] Speaker A: That's the twist. And the more that we can finally start to realize that and see that in day to day actual like world around us things, the more like nefarious I feel like it becomes. Because you're just like you sneaky sob. [00:27:17] Speaker B: And he's telling you just enough truth to get you to start buying in what he's saying. [00:27:21] Speaker A: Exactly right. And by the way, to just. And to like feel okay, justifying it when you do finally reach that threshold where you do know that it's wrong, but you've been able to kind of righteously justify it up to that point. [00:27:37] Speaker B: And he falls because he wants to be like God and now he's using that same thing to get Adam and Eve to fall. Yes, you need to be like God. Truth. Absolutely. Absolutely. You need to be like God. [00:27:50] Speaker A: Will this fruit make you like God? [00:27:52] Speaker B: Maybe it will. [00:27:53] Speaker A: Well, in some ways, absolutely. You'll know good from evil. That's exactly right. So in some ways that's even true too. And then like, well, this is the way that. Isn't this how God did it? Well, maybe in the beginning, sure. But the thing is, again, like, but it's not in the way that you're doing this. Maybe it is, but what you're doing is your way is, you're saying. Because the thing is. And we'll probably get to this, so I don't want to jump the gun too much. We're going to hopefully establish that partaking of that fruit may have not been off limits down the road. Just like certain commandments have time frames in which they are commandments even for us. Right? Such as like bearing children. We're commanded to totally do that. We're just commanded to not do that before we're married, etc. Right. So those aren't two conflicting commandments. Right. The fruit thing isn't a conflicting commandment necessarily because yes, they were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth, but who knows when that was supposed to take place. Like various other commandments that we have. Right. But that's his spin, right? Is that he's going, you need to take of this fruit. Well, truth be told, they probably do need to partake of that fruit at some point to fulfill the rest of the commandments. Or else you have like a for real, like not paradox, but whatever. I'm just saying it's like you would actually have like an actual problem if they were supposed to never partake of that fruit and not just then. Right? Yeah. And so that's, when you look at this, you're just like again, like putting this in your day to day, like how you see it, it's like that's how he gets you, is that he's like, well, you're told to do this. Well then just do it this way. Well, I know that this isn't God's way, but it's in the end it's the same thing. So just do it my way. [00:29:47] Speaker B: And it feels like to me he's trying to introduce a shortcut. And there are no shortcuts to glory, only humiliation and disappointment. And he's saying, yeah, this is the way you're supposed to do it. Let me just speed things up and do it now. And it's more about who are you going to listen to to get there? [00:30:10] Speaker A: Who are you going to set his anger? Is that his angle? Because that's the other question is like, what does he get out of this? [00:30:16] Speaker B: Because if the choice in the beginning was you can choose the only begotten who by the way is going to serve everyone and help you to develop and become like God, or you can choose this alternative who's going to make everyone gods on a shortcut? And would that work? Look at Satan who's saying, let the honor be mine, let the power be mine, let the credit be mine. And I am going to get you there. And I am going to be there. He is trying to take a shortcut. But if he is God and the God of this world, what does he offer? And how is he taking care of people? How is he serving people who would really want him to be their God if he could care less about you and more about lining his pockets or padding his glory? [00:31:04] Speaker A: So this is about him then? [00:31:06] Speaker B: This is about him. [00:31:07] Speaker A: It's like there's he, he gets a thrill from the idea that I was able to even get these guys to like obey me and not obey God. [00:31:17] Speaker B: He's, he's. Yeah, it's, here's, here's, here's where we want to get. Choose me to get you there. [00:31:24] Speaker A: Does he have any sort of inclination that this actually is going to kill them and that's the end of the plan, or does he know better? [00:31:36] Speaker B: That's a good question. [00:31:37] Speaker A: Because the thing is, I guess I'm just saying it's like. And when we kind of, when we're in the temple and we're kind of, we're learning about this story specifically, there's so many times that I just keep asking myself, is it truly at the core, just pride at this point? Because the thing is, one, we've already talked about this and established his plan, literally just can't work without the universe bursting into chaos, right? He can't take away our agency. He doesn't have the power to do that. Okay. Even if his plan was like, oh, okay, cool. We, okay, your plan. You get to take away everybody's agency, in my opinion, cool. The Earth just bursts into chaos. God ceases to become God, whatever. We have our agency as the core one thing that we have. So we've already established that. Two, it didn't work anyways. And he got cast out with his. With his friends. So now it doesn't work still. I'm just going, at what point is it like, okay, well, it wasn't going to work. It didn't work. I've been cast out at this point, I've been sent down here. What at that point does it become about for him? [00:32:54] Speaker B: And I think it's just a continuing rebellion, this idea that he can get enough people to follow him, that he. [00:33:01] Speaker A: Can say God changes his mind. [00:33:03] Speaker B: I was right. God, you were wrong. This idea that I am God, because what makes him God, he's still going to live forever. He still exists. But this idea that now everyone's following him and now he's being worshiped, it. [00:33:16] Speaker A: Just becomes a pride thing. And if that's the case, and here's where I'm going with this, I don't want to take too much time on this because we need to keep moving. But I think that there's something very interesting about the idea. Then if, if truly, what it comes down to is pride, right at the core of it, which, by the way, we're commanded to be aware of on all fronts and is pretty much when you really get back to people's downfall 9 times out of 10, if not 10 times out of 10, it always comes back to that thing, right? And I see it in my world. I see it in business wise and I, I can see it all around. I see it in the fall of politics. I see it in you know what I mean? Anything you do with. And of course, in myself and in each of our lives, it's absolutely something that we have to be aware of and combat. But I guess I'm just wondering, is, like, is this the ultimate warning of, like, this is how destructive this thing called pride can be, which is. It's about me. It's about my glory. It's about. It's about what other people think about me more than what God thinks about me. You know, I mean, all of the things that pride actually are. Is. Is this in a weird sort of a way, like the perfect illustration of how destructive and terrible and evil and corruptive pride is. [00:34:47] Speaker B: Yeah. And maybe a good example is like the Prince and the Pauper. Right. I mean, it's a story that you hear all the time. The prideful prince that gets humbled going down into humble circumstances, and the humble one that almost that role reversal. Right. And. And you see that contrast. You see that difference. And if Satan is offering a shortcut to becoming God's, a shortcut to salvation. If I were saved today to become a God, what kind of God would I be if I didn't go through that learning process, if I didn't learn how to serve, to give of myself, to be like God who came down and was washing the feet of all of his apostles, what kind of God would I be if I didn't love my creation so much that I was willing to sacrifice everything I was to. To help them? [00:35:42] Speaker A: Including your pride? [00:35:43] Speaker B: To love them, especially. Especially my pride. [00:35:47] Speaker A: Right. But including your free will, like if you were willing to offer that on the altar. Right. I put my. I will do. I will do what I'm being asked to do by God, by my own free will. [00:36:00] Speaker B: And that maybe is the core of what makes God a God? If you shortcut that process without changing the attitude, changing the pride to humility, could you ever be a God? And what creation would worship you if it was all about you and not about them? [00:36:25] Speaker A: Interesting thought. [00:36:26] Speaker B: And to me, he's offering the same thing. God's offering, but not quite. I mean, he's making it appear like the same thing that God is offering. And maybe that's one of the important distinctions about Satan, is he did not create anything. He did not go and create another world. [00:36:46] Speaker A: That's right. [00:36:46] Speaker B: He did not go and create mankind. He did not go and create his own little thing that's going to work. All he can do is try to imitate and pervert what already exists and offer a twisted version that's just not going to work. [00:37:02] Speaker A: Which is his common theme, which is his M.O. throughout all these things, not just this. This is just the perfect illustration of it. [00:37:08] Speaker B: Yeah. And God said, he says, you know, they hear his voice as he's walking in the cool of the day in the garden. He was coming back. Adam was looking for further light and knowledge. What is the fruit that he's eating here? Knowledge. God was coming to give him knowledge. If he would have waited on the Lord, he would have gotten what he was looking for anyways. And so I refuse to believe that the plan of God was hinging on a Satan that had to try to swing things the opposite direction. That here God is laying things out and giving man a chance. And man in his impatientness or looking at things and feeling like he knew more than God. And pride, Pride. I can't trust God because here's the knowledge. This is what I need to do to be a God. I'm worried I need to do this. I'm going to do it without knowing if this is what I need to do. [00:38:18] Speaker A: And by the way, it is also kind of a story that illustrates really perfectly the anxiety that we have sometimes when we're not getting the knowledge that we want or the answers that we want on the timeline that we want. I mean, truly. Or that we're not getting to participate in the awesome things in life. Let's just say that on the timeline that we want to. Right. Like, this is also kind of just a perfect example of slow down. If you truly put your trust in God, part of that comes with trusting in his timeline and not your timeline. [00:38:54] Speaker B: Exactly right. And it's even harder now, I feel, than maybe even times past because we have something almost like a Urim and Thummim we carry with us everywhere, where we just look at it and get answers to anything we want. And if we don't get an answer that we need, we're so used to having it, we can't be patient. And if we can't be patient to wait on the Lord's response to where we make up our own response instead and replace his knowledge with artificial knowledge or how we understand things, or the wisdom of man mingled in there with Scripture, because we're not willing to wait for the Lord to give us that knowledge, we're taking the substitute. We're taking the shortcut. We're taking the devil's plan to try to get to. And that's the thing. He's using religion and how many atrocities have been committed in the world in the name of God, in the name of. I am going to be righteous. You look at the persecution from the early saints and what they went through. [00:39:58] Speaker A: I mean, you go back for. Forever. [00:40:00] Speaker B: Go back to the Crusades. Go back to. Yeah, history is full of that. It's interesting. [00:40:08] Speaker A: I want to make sure to. I want to make sure. I know that we're. We've harped on this enough and we can move on. But I want to make. I just want to put a fine point on what you just said, though, which is we now have the resources that at any given moment, at any given time, we can be given the philosophies of men. At any given time. You can always find an answer, which is terrifying, by the way, because it doesn't mean it's the right answer. It's an answer. At any given moment. You can be told the answer to any question. The scary part about that is that that's not how God works. [00:40:51] Speaker B: Well, and maybe put even a finer point on it, because in Doctrine and Covenants it says, learn by study and by faith. [00:40:59] Speaker A: Right? [00:40:59] Speaker B: And you have this combination, seek wisdom from the best books. So there is merit behind discussing things. [00:41:07] Speaker A: There is merit. I'm not saying don't go learn things and don't go seek out information. But what I am saying is, is that some things, and I would say the most important things that we will be given or learn in this life will require. Which, by the way, is a fundamental principle. Sacrifice. [00:41:28] Speaker B: Yes. [00:41:30] Speaker A: I do not believe that the most important things in this life come from anything but actual sacrifice. What that sacrifice is, it varies. It's different. Right. But nothing that's worth having on an eternal perspective comes easy. Which goes back to your idea that Satan wants to give you the cheap, bastardized, shortcut version of it. Yes. Nothing come. Nothing that is eternal and worthwhile, and of that worth comes without sacrifice. Just keep that in mind. As we're trying to learn. You know what I mean? As we're trying to get answers, as we're trying to learn, as we're trying to improve, by the way, I'm speaking now 100% to me, and I have to remind myself of this because. Because I still have terrible habits that I'm trying to break. And I even then realize that's part of it too, though, is that there is no quick fix even for those things, because sacrifice is hard. That's not an easy thing. [00:42:34] Speaker B: And even looking at mythology, I mean, you look at Odin, who pulled his eye out in order to gain knowledge. I mean, it cost him A price. And there is a price to pay for being like God. And that price is our will, is our pride, is sacrificing who we are to put God's will first, which teaches us to put others first, to be humble, to not be the greatest person in the room, but to be meek, to be like a child. And if we try to shortcut and pass all that and get through that process without leaving that at the altar, we never arrive because we're not able to handle that power. [00:43:19] Speaker A: And final point. And then we do have to move on. And by the way, there is somebody that's gonna be right there going, oh, don't worry. I'll give you the easy way. I'm just saying, absolutely, there is somebody that will be there every time. When you feel like you're at your wit's end and that you don't have any more patience and you can't wait any longer, I promise you, 100% of the time, there'll be somebody else there going, oh, don't worry. Here's the cheap way. Here's the shortcut. 100% of the time. I can promise you that. All right, we got to move on. [00:43:51] Speaker B: Blessed are those that wait on the Lord. [00:43:52] Speaker A: Blessed are those. Baby, I'm working on it. Let's just say I'm speaking to myself more than anybody else at this point. [00:43:59] Speaker B: Well, that's what makes it great. [00:44:01] Speaker A: Let's keep going. [00:44:02] Speaker B: Sounds great. And I think it's fascinating that Satan is cast out for trying to make himself like God, and now he's trying to make man do the same thing. [00:44:11] Speaker A: And. [00:44:12] Speaker B: And yet it gives being like God a bad rap, saying, oh, it is arrogant that you want to be like God. But no, this is the plan. But the plan is to do it the Lord's way. And we are going to run into this, by the way, when we talk about the sacrifice that Cain offers versus the sacrifice that Abel offers in Genesis, we don't get a lot of insight in this. But in Moses, from Joseph Smith's translation, it says that Satan commands Cain to offer his offering. And so it's him again who he's listening to and who he's sacrificing for. And maybe it's in the right name or this idea that he needs to sacrifice to be like God, or this is an image of the only begotten, but he's doing it because he's following a different God. And there's also consequences that follow with this, right? And this idea that Adam and Eve, after they partake of the fruit find themselves naked in the garden. And this is a theme that plays itself out even before in chapter two, the very last verse. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and they were not ashamed. But yet when they think of the fruit, this idea that they find themselves naked. And there's some weird wordplay coming on with. With the serpent as well. When we look at chapter three, verse one. Now, the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field. And if you look at the paragraph markings, you don't have a paragraph marking here for a while. You can take this thought. It almost straddles both worlds. The word for subtle in Hebrew, a room is. It's one letter different from the word for naked, but they're phonetically the same. So there's almost some wordplay here. Saying Adam and Eve were naked, but the serpent was even more naked. And you talk about Satan being cast out and losing the light. And there's legends here that when Adam and Eve partake of the fruit, they were initially clothed with light in the Garden of Eden. They take of the fruit and they lose the light. That was like a garment for them. And they find themselves naked or without light. And the Satan was even more naked when you look at the fall that he had preceded, he had fallen first, and now he's walking them through this fall. And this kind of wordplay, it's worth pointing out, there is some cool things that are happening here when you talk about Adam. The name Adam itself, being made from the dust of the earth. The earth. The word is Adamaht. So you're creating Adam from Adamah. Literally, the word Adam comes from Adamah, and you're creating him from Adamah. But then you're taking it by losing that ah ending, right? Adamah to Adam. But then you're taking Ish, which doesn't have the ah ending, which means man, and you're creating woman, which does have the ah. So you're almost going from this Adamah to Adam, now man, ish to Isha, back full cycle almost in this whole little deal where there's just some, I don't know, kind of some weird, cool wordplay that's happening throughout the story for. For what it's worth. So let's go into these guys as they find themselves naked and. And talk about the significance of that. When we do something that we shouldn't, one of the first things we want to do is hide it. I think that's just our nature. We don't want other people to know what we did to the point where sometimes it creates pressure to lie about what happened, to hide it. And that's the reaction you get with Adam and Eve. They find their nakedness. And so what are they first going to do? They're going to try to sew fig leaves together to hide their nakedness. And the idea of being naked and being seen naked, exposed, it creates feelings of vulnerability, embarrassment, and it's a perfect image to put into perspective what happens when we sin. When we sin, and if people find out about it, it creates us to feel embarrassed. It's just as if we have exposed ourselves in a humiliating way to others. We find ourselves naked. So this idea of man and woman finding themselves naked and being embarrassed and trying to hide from the presence of God, perfect type for sin and how it feels, and it creates that powerful imagery and helps us understand sin in context of being exposed. And so they hide themselves from God first. They try to fix it themselves. That this is something that goes more than that. When God is going to cover them, he now makes coats of skin and clothes them. And now some people refer to this as they lost the garment of light. They lost their light and they're naked, but he's going to clothe them with mortality. And this is what introduces death into this world. The idea that now they're clothed with a mortal skin, a mortal body, that they can now die. And you look again at what Satan was saying and what God was saying and who was telling the truth. God says that in the day you eat of the fruit, you will die. Death is introduced. And in that very day, now they are clothed in mortality, death is introduced into the world. For Adam and Eve, he is absolutely right. But then Satan says, you will not die. In the day that you eat, you will not die. And that 24 hour period of time, certainly no, they did not die. That consequence is not right there in the foreseeable. I mean, he's, he's saying, you're not going to die. Well, yeah, you're not going to die today. But death is a consequence of what they did. And so you can kind of see that the way he lies is more in perception, and it's a sneakier kind of lying. And it is kind of going back to that story of Abaddon. They said when they took him and they cut him from shoulder to shoulder and it stripped a lot of his strength and he had to be cast down and lost his ability to fly. His wings were broken, but they said because his power was stripped from him physically, he could not physically dominate anymore. And he had to rely on subtlety. He had to rely on crafty. He had to rely on deceit and this idea that he's lying. Not maybe in outright lies, but sometimes we do the same thing as maybe we say something that's true, but we say it in such a way that we're being deceptive and creating the wrong impression and. And leading people along without necessarily lying. I don't know. I feel like kids can be pretty good at that sometimes. I've been pretty good at that sometimes. Not that it's a proud thing to be good at, but that's how he works. [00:51:48] Speaker A: Cool. Let's keep going. [00:51:50] Speaker B: Yeah. All right, next up, when we're talking about the consequence of the fall, I think a powerful thing here that he says is enmity. When the Lord says, I will put enmity between thee and the seed of the woman, and you will have power to bite her heel, and she will have power to crush your head. And you talk about what that enmity has resulted in in the world today. It is when we demonize others that we capitalize on the hatred that we have for Satan to allow us to commit atrocities that we otherwise wouldn't commit. When you talk about raising false priests or armies or doing things to destroy. [00:52:49] Speaker A: The world. [00:52:53] Speaker B: Look at the rage that's created as you demonize the Nazi troops and make them seem inhuman. And you look at Vietnam or the soldiers, and they're called baby killers. If you can take somebody and explain them in terms of being a demon or a devil or being Satan, naturally you're going to get a lot of people to jump on the bandwagon and hate them, because you're using that natural enmity for Satan to inspire a hatred and inspire wars and violence and all of those things that we were talking about a little bit earlier, and God and his wisdom, knowing that man now has this knowledge, but he is going to die, man could partake of the tree of life now and live forever, but if he does, he is going to live forever in a fallen state, in a state he can't be with God. So he places cherubim with the flaming sword. Maybe a funny little story here. In modern Hebrew, they didn't have a word for cabbage because Hebrew was a dead language. You have to kind of resurrect it with words that you have in the Bible, right? And there was no word for cabbage. No one spoke this language. So they tried to take a word that they don't normally use. I mean, cherubim became the word for cabbage in modern Hebrew. So if you're reading the Bible from a modern Hebrew perspective, God put cabbages in the Garden of Eden with the flaming sword. [00:54:32] Speaker A: These cabbage patch kids had some real heartburn, baby. [00:54:36] Speaker B: To guard the way of the Tree of Life, to keep them from living forever in their sins. And you look at the Tree of Life, and it's being protected by cherubim, or it's forbidden. It's restricted. It requires special access to get to it. And going to this idea, Lehi partakes of the Tree of Life, but is he restricting anyone from coming to the tree? He is instead inviting everyone to come. And this idea that the Atonement is the Tree of Life, and God does want us to partake of it. The thing is, we have to go through preparation and change ourselves before we can take the free of life. [00:55:18] Speaker A: Yeah. And in Lehi's dream, it's not like you started at the Tree of Life. It's not like you started there. And he was saying, okay, now we all just started. Here, everybody eat this. Adam and Eve started at the Tree of Life, right? Like, they actually physically were like, hey, this is in the garden with the rest of us. I think that that's a pretty important distinction between those two stories, is that Lehi was inviting people to walk the straight and narrow path, make it through. You know what I mean? Like the. The. The darkness, avoid the pitfalls along the way, and then meet him there at the end. Right. Like, he. Like. To your point, there's a lot of context to the difference between those two stories. [00:55:57] Speaker B: And after Adam takes the fruit that he shouldn't, he separated physically from it, had to work his way back, and had to work his way back with angels standing as sentinels, cherubim guarding the way. And what are they guarding it? How do you get by? God says, everyone's welcome to come back, but how do you get back? And the cool thing is, you look at this Garden of Eden. We've already talked about it being on a raised surface because the water flows down out of it. You look at the tree being inside of there, you look at the structure of it, the presence of God inside of the garden and being cast out to where you're cast out. To travel back in as it faces east, you have to take this direction back into the west, go back into to the presence of the Lord. [00:56:49] Speaker A: Well, you have to sacrifice and then climb back up to it, right? [00:56:52] Speaker B: Yes. And going on with our discussion of Moses and the exceedingly high mountain, there is a price that has to Be paid. And when you look at, like when I was a kid, we used to go to the Fun Dome up in Sandy or whatever, right? And they have all the arcades, and you have the tokens to play the different machines. But in order to get a token, you have to pay real money in the machine and exchange it for the token, right? Well, in order to pay a token, to be able to get into partaking of the tree of life, there are certain commitments or promises that have to be paid. And you pay these prices and receive these tokens that you can use to pass through the sentinels, the angels, and that is the whole process of restoration. And the idea that every temple subsequent to Adam and Eve leaving the garden was designed to replicate the garden itself. The menorah was shaped like a tree that was sitting inside of the holy place. The curtains had cherubim woven in it, separating the outside world from being able to go into the tree. And the idea that the endowment, and by the way, the word endowment is used interchangeably by Joseph Smith with enduement. Endument comes from the Greek to be clothed. This idea that endowed is to be clothed or put a clothing upon you of power to allow you this gift. [00:58:25] Speaker A: Well, similar to the light that Adam and Eve were clothed with before they found themselves naked. [00:58:31] Speaker B: Yes. And the restoration, this is. You lost your clothing now when Christ sacrifices animals to give them coats of skin, because, I mean, where are you getting the skin from if you're not sacrificing? [00:58:44] Speaker A: I mean, that's an important thing, is that even then there has to be death to be restoration. [00:58:50] Speaker B: And it's symbolic of him coming to die at a future time. His life is going to pay the price to allow them. If they subscribe to certain behaviors, certain covenants, they'll receive certain tokens that allow them to pay that price. They will be clothed upon to cover their nakedness. The Hebrew word for clothe is kaphar, which is translated as atonement, the same word. So you see, clothed, you can translate it as atoned, if it's coming from this kaphar, which is where we get Yom Kippur, day of covering, or day of atonement. So you get back in and you're covered and allowed to go. And now partake of that tree now that you're ready. So it's not that God's saying, never come, partake, never become like God, it's get ready first. [00:59:43] Speaker A: And what did. And it's funny because what did? What did we. I mean, to kind of full Circle on this, right? Is that. Is that what God requires? Because of that separation is a long and arduous journey, right? And what is the first thing that we're taught? What's the first principle that we learn about in the temple? What's the first thing Adam and Eve were commanded to do when they were kicked out of the garden? Offer sacrifice. So sacrifice even then is like this comes back full circle, right? Sacrifice is required. Patience is required. A long journey is required. And again, we've talked about the symbolisms with, like the baptismal font and how that's just the very beginning. But even the idea of traversing space and time or that sea between us and God, right? The idea of Noah and his ark, you know what I mean? It's like there's so many. The ark of the covenant, right? Is that all of this still pertains to a journey or a traveling from a physical separation, right? Even our journey, right? As we are born into this world, there is a separation there. I mean, between us and our mother or the person that is in this role playing God or the person, you know what I mean, giving life, right? Is that there's always the symbolism of the physical separation requiring a journey to get back to it. [01:01:08] Speaker B: Right? [01:01:08] Speaker A: Right? [01:01:09] Speaker B: Yes. [01:01:09] Speaker A: And who was right there to go, hey, I have a faster way to do this? Who is right there to go? Hey, here's the shortcut back. [01:01:19] Speaker B: Here's a side door. [01:01:20] Speaker A: Here's the side door. Look, go take that fruit. Look, the other tree's right there. [01:01:24] Speaker B: Grab it, grab it. Quick, quick. [01:01:26] Speaker A: Take this one. Go get that one. Thank God. Cherubim's there. To be like, no, no, no, no, no, you can come back here. And by the way, that's the other thing too, right? Is that you look at that. And God placed Cherubim and the flaming sword in front of that tree, but not without hope of ever getting back to it. It's like, no, no, no. Now you've just got to do the journey. You've just got to make the arduous journey back. [01:01:51] Speaker B: And this is why I love the Old Testament so much, is understanding the context of the Old Testament makes the New Testament make so much more sense. Look at the atonement and Christ's death in context of the fall. Because remember, Golgotha is a hill just like the Garden of Eden. And on there you have crosses just like trees. And if you have the cross representing a tree of death, which is going to kill Christ, and yet he is being affixed to it as a tree, of life that is overcoming the consequences of the tree of death. And you have guards standing there, literally, Roman guards, protecting his body and keeping him on the cross, like cherubim, keeping people away from the body, from partaking of the body or taking the body, and then even when he dies and the veil is rent. This passing through the veil that the atonement is recreating the instance of paradise in the Old Testament and allowing people to see that the consequences of the fall can be reversed and transversed back into the presence of God. Now that the veil is rent, we can all enter the presence of God. And I love that the Old Testament gives us that insight and allows us to complete the puzzle and fully understand what the atonement means to us today. [01:03:27] Speaker A: Great stuff, my man. Let's keep going. [01:03:29] Speaker B: Let's keep going. Maybe just a quick scripture to cap that off. 2nd Corinthians 5:1:4. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God and house not made with hands eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan earnestly, desiring to be clothed upon with our house, which is from heaven. If so, being that being clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan being burdened, not that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. All right, I think that's it as far as Adam and Eve. Maybe let's dive into the story of Cain and Abel a little bit and get through some of that good stuff before we run completely out of time. One fascinating thing for me is you've got Adam and Eve, and we know that he has Cain, we know that he has Abel, and we know that they have Seth. But out of three boys, how do you get the entire world population? [01:04:42] Speaker A: Tricky. [01:04:43] Speaker B: That's not going to work. And it talks about. And we get a little bit of an introduction here to begatting. Not full on begadding, but a little bit of begadding. When we talk about Cain's children, so we know that they have wives, but why don't they talk about it? And for me, this is another cool part of the Bible is that the symbolism and the stories being told here say he has hundreds of kids or 30 kids, or 20 kids, or obviously more than just three, or we wouldn't have our posterity today. But by only mentioning the three, you have Cain, Abel and Seth. Of those three, Abel and Seth are counted as righteous, and Cain is counted as wicked and cast Out. [01:05:37] Speaker A: That's an interesting equation that I feel like we've seen before. [01:05:40] Speaker B: Yeah. And this idea that one third of Adam's children fall away and are cast out. Adam playing the role of God here with his wife and his children. And then you have this idea is that the Scriptures are telling us God's story and setting the stage. And really the Old Testament is the family history of Christ leading us up to the story of Christ and how he's going to save his children. But through here you can almost see the voice of God telling us a greater story or telling us about where we are, where we come from. And the story repeats with Ham and his three kids. And it's just, it's interesting. We've seen it before, we've talked about it before. That's all I'll say. As we move into the next deal with Cain, Abel and, and Seth, Cain is. Satan says, go and offer a sacrifice. And he offers the fruit of the ground. And as I try to look at this and understand what went wrong for him, because I believe God commands for his children to offer the first of their fruit and, and the first of their flocks. And the big difference between Cain and Abel right now is Abel is a shepherd. He's going out with the flocks. Cain is a gardener. He's got the plants and the crops. The shepherd versus the gardener. This is the very first instance we have of those two having a struggle, an issue. This is going to play a prominent role not only throughout the Bible, but throughout all of history. The Egyptians, established city dwellers, Hyksos come in, these shepherds conquer Egypt. And now they have these foreign rulers. They hate shepherds. They distrust shepherds so much. So Joseph tells his dad when he brings them down into Egypt, don't tell him you're shepherds. They don't like shepherds. Tell them you raise cattle, but not sheep. And it happens over and over throughout all of history. This rivalry that starts with these first brothers between your nomadic versus your city dwellers. And even throughout all of Israel, being the shepherd was like the hated chore. You always put it on the youngest son, like, hey, you're the youngest. Now it's your turn. You go do it. Nobody, nobody liked the shepherds. Which also is going to flavor when, when Christ is born. The fact that shepherds come and visit him representing one end of the social spectrum versus the magi representing the. The exact opposite end. But this is where that story begins, even from the beginning, Cain and Abel. But when it says that he's. Even though they Say the first of your fields and the first of your flocks. Cain's sacrifice is not accepted. And I read this and wonder when he says he offered the fruit of the ground. That could mean a couple of different things. One, it could mean that the ground produced it by growing the plants. And so he's harvesting his plants and giving it to the Lord. But I wonder if he's not literally picking up the fruit that fell to the ground. Interesting, because who's offering, who's telling him to offer the sacrifice? According to the book of Moses, it's Satan. And if you're offering it in a similitude of your God, Satan, Cain's God, was cast to the earth, grab the fruit that was cast out. And this is fruit. Typically that is the early fruit, right? It's not the new young, small, firm fruit that's stuck on the tree. It's the one that's been there the longest, that's a little bit older and heavier, that's falling to the ground, grab that first fruit that's fallen to the ground, that's rotting and cast out. And that's a similitude of the God that you've chosen to follow, by the way. [01:10:04] Speaker A: It's a lot easier just to walk around and grab fruit off the ground than it is to. [01:10:08] Speaker B: Not a lot of work. [01:10:09] Speaker A: I'm just saying as, as, as we are talking about today, it's a lot easier just to walk around and snag up a bunch of the rotten fruit off the ground than it is to climb up a tree and grab it. [01:10:21] Speaker B: What's the, what's the price you're willing to pay for the knowledge? Or are you looking for the shortcut? [01:10:26] Speaker A: Keeps coming back. [01:10:28] Speaker B: Keeps coming back. And so how do we know that God accepted one and not the other? And it's interesting because God is straight on having conversations with Cain at this point. Why are you disappointed? Why Wroth? Do you not know that I will accept if you do what is right? And some stories, accounts about this, they say that fire came down from heaven and consumed Abel's sacrifice, but didn't touch Cain's, which gives you an idea of how he was known. And there's all sorts of different stories that talk about this time period and Abel having a twin sister and Cain having a twin sister, and Cain was jealous that Abel was able to marry his twin. There's weird stories that go into this. I'm not going to dive into too many of those. [01:11:15] Speaker A: You don't need to do that, not with the very little time we have left. [01:11:18] Speaker B: No, no. But for whatever, Cain is upset, jealous with Abel, and he rises up. Here we have the first murder, and Cain gets a mark put upon him. The book of Moses explains this differently when it talks about secret combinations. He killed Abel to get gain to inherit his flocks, and now he can offer the first of the flocks as well as part of his sacrifice and make things right, but he's doing it to get gain, and he creates this oath and the secret combination to go and kill Abel for it. And now Cain is cursed and cast out and Abel's dead. Adam and Eve are distraught, and they wait, according to some accounts, as much as 30 years before they go and have another son and Seth becomes their new heir. In some stories, they talk about Cain. It says right in the Bible that he is distraught and says, people are going to hate me and they are going to kill me. And the Lord sets a mark upon him so that people won't slay him. And he is this vagabond. And you can have a whole discussion on capital punishment or justice or whatnot. I'm not even going to touch that right now. But what is the fate of Cain and what happens? And right after this, they're going to go through Cain's descendants, and you get to this guy named Lamech, and for whatever reason, you get this focus on Lamech, who says, hey, if Cain was cursed seven times, I'm going to be cursed 70 times. Seven times because I've wounded a young man to his killing, to killing him. So now you have this second murder. What's the deal with Lamech? Who did he kill? Why does he have two wives? And where does he fit into all of this? And in a lot of counts, they actually say that the person that Lamech kills is Cain himself. And so who knows what actually happens? Some say that because Cain used whatever instrument he used to kill Abel, and they suspect it was stone. It was stone that killed Cain. So they say in one story that Lamech was leaning on a stone wall. He didn't realize Cain was on the other side. The stones became loose and fell, and Cain was killed by stones crushed from Lamech. Another story says that it was actually a house built out of stone, and the stones collapse on Cain and he dies, and he's killed by the same instrument that he had killed Able with. Another story says that Lamech was actually a really good archer, but blind, which makes no sense. And he'd have a young man that would just point and he would shoot at wherever the young man was. [01:14:05] Speaker A: How did he see where he was pointing? All right, we gotta keep going. We're running out of time. [01:14:10] Speaker B: And then the young man points to wrestling in the woods, and he shoots. [01:14:13] Speaker A: And it's Kane. [01:14:14] Speaker B: And Kane dies. [01:14:15] Speaker A: All right, all right, listen. [01:14:19] Speaker B: Who knows what happened? [01:14:20] Speaker A: Okay? [01:14:20] Speaker B: I love. [01:14:20] Speaker A: I love these stories. I want to know what happens to Kane, but I really want to finish this podcast in some sort of a decent time. [01:14:26] Speaker B: Brian. [01:14:26] Speaker A: All right, next week, we're going to be talking about some baguettes. Jason, I got a little surprise for you for our listeners and anything else we need to talk about. Now, are we good? I think. [01:14:38] Speaker B: I think we're good. [01:14:39] Speaker A: All right, until next week. [01:14:41] Speaker B: See ya. [01:14:50] Speaker A: It.