Exodus 14 - 18

Speaker 1 00:00:15 Welcome to the weekly deep dive podcast on the add on education network, the podcast where we take a look at the weekly, come follow me discussion and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd here in the studio with my friend and this show's producer, Nate Pifer. Speaker 2 00:00:31 What's up. Speaker 1 00:00:32 Hey Nate. Speaker 2 00:00:34 Welcome back to the country again. Speaker 1 00:00:36 Welcome back to the country. Give me a it's good to be in country. That's a good country to be in. Speaker 2 00:00:41 Had a fun trip, again, Speaker 1 00:00:43 A fun trip, getting a lot done. We're we're, we're getting pretty close. A lot of game-changers happening this week and hopefully we get a bunch of orphans out next week. Speaker 2 00:00:51 Awesome. What are we talking about this week? This Speaker 1 00:00:54 Week? Speaking of getting people out of country. Speaker 2 00:00:59 I see what you did there. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:01:01 Moses is on the run, Speaker 2 00:01:03 Moses Speaker 1 00:01:04 With a group of refugees, trying to find his way. Speaker 2 00:01:09 I already know what post I'm going to put in right here for that exact moment. Oh, Speaker 1 00:01:14 I Speaker 2 00:01:15 Did you hear me disclaim a second ago? You just hit me with Moses is coming out with a bunch of refugees and I about fell out of my chair. I'm like, I know that I'm going to download it right now. Go ahead. Oh, beer. Speaker 1 00:01:26 All right. Sounds good. Speaker 2 00:01:28 Oh, it sounds great. Trust me. Speaker 1 00:01:31 So w we did get, uh, now gone Speaker 2 00:01:35 What? Speaker 1 00:01:37 I just gotta say somebody commented saying that, uh, for whatever reason, the show, when they tried listening to it kept stopping for them. And I was curious, is that, is that an experience that other listeners has had? Is that a unique one-off or, or is there something that we need to do to address? Speaker 2 00:01:55 I don't know. I don't know what we would've done on our end, so, no, I don't know. I'm sorry that that is happening. Cause I know how obnoxious and frustrating that could be. Speaker 1 00:02:02 Yep. Hopefully that's one off. You keep having problems. Let me know if you have problems, just hit us up. Hi, weekly, deep dive. Dive. Speaker 2 00:02:08 Just hit us up anyways. Hi, at weekly deep dive.com. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:02:12 Yeah. We're like Moses, we don't want to hear your problems. Hit us up if you're happy. I Speaker 2 00:02:17 Imagine. All right, let's go. Speaker 1 00:02:20 All right. I'm sorry. Speaker 2 00:02:22 No, you don't need to be sorry. All right, let's do it Speaker 1 00:02:24 Say so one quick note from Exodus third, 12, 13, right before we dive into this lesson today, uh, something I feel like is a missed opportunity. We really could hit when the Lord took the firstborn of all of Egypt and their, their families, their cattle, their flocks, whatever the case may be. And Israel was able to be passed over by this plague with the blood marked on the post. The Lord tells Israel that because the first born were redeemed of him, that they need to redeem the firstborn. That that was something that should have been given to the Lord. And in order to keep their first born, they had to redeem the firstborn by sacrificing a lamb, offering an offering in the place of the firstborn that didn't die. And you look at the priesthood and where this is going to come because the Levi it's when they take the place of the firstborn for Israel, and they become consecrated to the Lord to serve with the priesthood in, in place, the firstborn that is their offering. Speaker 1 00:03:30 But you look here in particular with Moses and Israel coming out, Moses is not the first born son. Aaron is the first born son. Aaron is the one that is going to be consecrated as a high priest. And it's errands line that retains the priesthood. The priesthood is not going to go through Moses, but through the firstborn, I find it kind of interesting. And I love that image of the sacrifice, redeeming the firstborn, especially in light of what we've been talking about. When we talked about the firstborn, not getting it almost kind of being sacrificed so that someone else could become this, the firstborn and Christ, ultimately being the firstborn who was sacrificed, who gave his life as a lamb so that we could be redeemed as a firstborn and inherit all that God has. So I like that imagery. It's killer. Let's go into Exodus. Speaker 1 00:04:21 Chapter 14. Moses takes the people and rather than just going anywhere, he follows the directions that the Lord gives him. In fact, the Lord is very specific on where to take them. And he tells them right at the end of 13 to avoid the land of the Philistines. And the reason that he gives is less the Israelites see the war and they decided to go back to Egypt. So this is not a people that is ready to go in and fight and establish themselves in the land and be willing to fight with their neighbors for their existence. They're, they're more willing to rely on the Egyptians to do that for them, or they're more powerful neighbors. They're, they're a little bit shy about this. They do leave. It says, uh, as they leave, they are harnessed. And that's a weird way of translating that word into the English. Speaker 1 00:05:15 When it says the Israel leaves harnessed, it doesn't mean that they're all wearing horse gear or whatever. It means that they're in battle array. That's what that word is. So they do come out prepared for battle, but the Lord is, is avoiding any major battle sites, less. They lose their will. And you can tell from the beginning that there is a long ways that these people have to go through to become who they are going to be. And the Lord tells them specifically to go to the sea of reeds, which has been translated this dead sea. And they come to the border here and it is surrounded by wilderness. And, and why that significant, where they've got, not only do they have close to a million people with them, or potentially over a million people with them, 600,000 men with their families, but they have flocks. Speaker 1 00:06:08 They have their cattles. And, and if they're surrounded by large swaths of wilderness crossing through that wilderness, with that many people, logistically is impossible. They have Hamed themselves in by wilderness and Pharaoh who told them to leave. And all of the people eager to get them out after the death of the firstborn and worried that the rest of them would be doomed as well. They're paying the Israelites money, telling them to go immediately so fast that it, the whole unleavened bread, you don't have time for your bread to rise. Just get out. When Pharaoh hears that they actually did leave. And here, I have to think that this is a little bit of an economic repercussion. If that's the right way to put it, he tells him to leave. But when he realizes that they actually did. I almost think that maybe Pharaoh didn't think they would do it. Speaker 1 00:07:02 He tells Moses and Aaron to go, but will the people really follow him? They're comfortable. They're established. Where are they going to go? Who is this Moses guy? Is he really proven? Are they going to follow him? And when they tell Pharaoh that the people actually did leave and he sees the fallout from it, because what's the fallout. You have a large working class who is providing all of your bricks. Who's doing all of the jobs that you don't particularly want to do. All of a sudden a million of those people leave. Okay. So can you imagine if, if we had a million people just up and quit their jobs, jobs that people don't particularly want to do, what kind of impact is that going to have on the economy? And I feel like we're, we're experiencing that to a small degree, even now with our economies, you talk about the great walkout. Speaker 1 00:07:56 Okay? So when they, they see this happening already, they've been devastated by the plagues and now they have their working class quit. And when Farrell looks, he says these people, and it says in the English are entangled. So by entangled, it means confused. They're testing the leadership of Moses. And, and not that he is as they go out to where they go, he's taking them onto an island, but they can't cross the sea. They can't cross over because the wilderness has hemmed them all in. It looks like terrible leadership. They're in a position where there is nothing that they can do. And Pharaoh is saying, they are confused. They don't have a good leader. They're going to run out of resources, exhaust what they have on this little Oasis. Then this people are going to die or wish they had come back to Egypt. He might even be looking at this from a humanitarian role. Speaker 1 00:08:57 What do we need to do to pull these back in and rescue these in grateful people and give them, give them security, give them somewhere to go and make them feel bad about having left. So he wrestles together his chariots, his horses, his, his men. And he says, look, let's go rescue these confused people and pull them back out. The only thing I want to say about that is, again, this this message that president Monson would say over and over again, that the wisdom of God often appears as foolishness to man. But the single greatest lesson that we can learn is that when man lists that when God speaks and a man listens, that man will always be right. Yup. So as bad as the decision isn't seen for Moses to go where he was, and as foolish as it seemed to Farrow and as foolish as it seemed to the Israelites, when Pharaoh shows up, we know the story, God parts the sea. And, and this is pretty interesting. I dare say that the miracle was not the parting of the sea. Speaker 2 00:10:00 Interesting. Okay. Speaker 1 00:10:02 We've we've seen, in fact there was a scientific paper published on this a few years ago that said that all it would take is a wind 65 miles an hour to, to separate the sea of reeds. And that this is something that's happened. And not only that, we have a journal record from major general Alexander Toolik of the British army in 1882, from his journal, he writes a Gale of wind from the eastward set in and became so strong that I had to cease work next morning, on going out, I found the lake Manzella, which has been situated on the west side of the Suez canal had totally disappeared the effect of the high wind on the shallow water. Having actually driven it away beyond the horizon. The natives were walking about on the mud where they, they before had been fishing boats. Now a ground had been floating. So this miracle is not, is not something that's necessarily an isolated event. It's not something that's scientifically impossible. It's something that has happened that can happen. I don't know that the miracle is the parting of the sea. Speaker 2 00:11:12 I'm literally trying to find a video on this right now, because if that's it, I look, I'm not saying that I don't believe that, but I'm just saying like, is that true with the wind? Speaker 1 00:11:22 Yes. Speaker 2 00:11:24 How deep is this? C? Speaker 1 00:11:27 Is it it's a great question. Speaker 2 00:11:29 Cause like it's it's if it's that, if it can be blown that easy, it's gotta be pretty shallow. Right. Speaker 1 00:11:34 Shallow, but still deep enough, like in this case, the guy had fishing boats floating on there. I mean, if you've got boats, Speaker 2 00:11:41 All right, I'm going to find you keep going, but I'm definitely I'm I'm I believe you. I would like to see some video explanation on this. Cause that seems insane to me. Speaker 1 00:11:52 And, and perhaps it's, it's a bigger deal than, than what I'm saying. It is. I wasn't there yet. Speaker 2 00:11:57 Maybe it's just not like the movie, because it gets hard to imagine that it's just hard to imagine. Yeah. See them. I'm pulling up the pictures of like the 10 commandments, right? Yeah. It's like Moses of water. It's like the wall of water on both sides and Speaker 1 00:12:09 It's Speaker 2 00:12:09 Being, it's being separated down the middle. Speaker 1 00:12:12 And they do say that there was a wall of water on the right hand, a wall of water on the left hand. I don't want to take anything away from the miracle itself and the parting of the sea, but the Egyptians didn't seem overly concerned about it for them to follow right in with Speaker 2 00:12:26 It as true. Speaker 1 00:12:28 But here, what I here's what I think the great miracle Speaker 2 00:12:30 Is. Tell me Speaker 1 00:12:32 The fact that Moses was in the right place at the right time to take advantage of that. Speaker 2 00:12:36 Right? That's that is, uh, that is fantastic perspective Speaker 1 00:12:40 Because you already have this pillar of fire, this cloud, there's some weather events that are happening here. Some wind that's blowing some things that are happening for Moses to be at the right place at the right time, because that's what the Lord told him to do that to me is the miracle. Speaker 2 00:13:00 Amen brother. That's a great, that's fantastic perspective Speaker 1 00:13:04 Because there's a Speaker 2 00:13:04 Lot to learn from that too. Like I don't, I don't think we need to just blow by that. Right? Like that's, that's maybe one of the first and initial, like fantastic lessons that we can kind of learn from this week is that you, you, you said, and I just of want to just put a bow on it a little bit. And that is when we sometimes feel prompted to do something that might seem crazy or that might seem strange, but we feel deeply that we're being asked to do it, not be afraid to do it because again, like you just, you never know, be in the right place at the right time. Fantastic. Speaker 1 00:13:40 Yeah. And the Egyptians also tried to cross over, right? Speaker 2 00:13:44 They were at the wrong place at the wrong time, but Speaker 1 00:13:46 Their, but their timing wasn't they make it a Speaker 2 00:13:50 Little bit too late Farrow, Speaker 1 00:13:51 A little bit too late and their preparation. And sometimes you show up to something thinking that you're extremely prepared, right? You look at how the Egyptians were pursuing the Hebrews. The Egyptians had chariots, the Hebrews were on foot, but we all know when you're going in a chair yet will crossing an area that used to be under water. Speaker 2 00:14:16 It's going to be pretty muddy, Speaker 1 00:14:17 Right? It's going to be absolutely pretty muddy. Those, those wheels, you think of the weight, right? You've got your foot, which is somewhat spread out too, to support your weight. And, and you're taking, you know, how many pounds per square inch on your foot, but now take a chariot. And you look at that wheel. As big as that wheel is going to be. You've got what, a couple inches period to support the entire weight. And you have one, two, couple people standing in that chair yet. Now you have their weight not distributed over several inches. You've got lots of weight over a small area and it sinks, it sinks right into the ground. And you know what? This, this story, well, let, let me, let me get to this story. Um, a few years back, I had the opportunity to go with the group of young man down to Moab on, on an adventure. Speaker 1 00:15:10 And we brought bicycles very similar to these chariot. W you know, if you will, a wheels that supporting our weight as we're going and what we thought we, we got on the trail about five in the morning, the idea that this was going to be maybe a five mile trail with our bikes, that we would go get done off of it by 8:00 AM, have breakfast finder camp out. The reason we did it this way is so that we would be in the sh the early hours of the morning where it wasn't super hot. So we wouldn't be dehydrating the boys or anything. Then we would find some shade, some water activities in the day, and then just plan our, our, our bike trips to morning, evening. However, as well-prepared, as we thought we were, it did not go out that well, uh, th this trail, we, what we thought was five miles was actually a loop that we didn't take. Speaker 1 00:15:58 And we were extending it all the way down to some other area. Oh man. And we hit sand heavy sand. And if you've ever tried to bike in sand before, I felt like Pharaoh going through and chariot wheels with this mud that the wheels sank, and you could not ride your bikes through that. We had to get off and try to push it. So that's what the Lord, and here, it's saying that the Lord caused their wills to be coming off. And it was pulling heavy and they were stuck. They were getting stuck in the mud. So as Israel comes out and these guys are delayed again, back to the preparation here, chariots, they thinking that they're prepared. If you take it before the crossing of the sea, what group is better behaved, prepared the wills and the horses to catch up to the Hebrews or the Hebrews on foot. The wisdom of God appearing like foolishness. It seemed like the Egyptians were much better equipped, little, did they know they would be crossing a lake bed? Speaker 1 00:16:54 And now all of a sudden, the foolishness of God, yeah, God, them. And as they're stuck, almost like a mouse on a glue trap, the wind stops blowing the sea returns and they're done I've anyways. I probably spent too much time. That's great. Let's keep going. Let's move on. I do find it interesting that they say that the wind comes from the east. The east wind is something that we see throughout the Bible in several places. And when we say east wind, it means it's coming from the east to the west, which interestingly enough is, is again, the direction of the temple as it faces the east. And the idea that you have to approach Eden back from the east, headed towards the west, the idea that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, that it's coming from God, that that is a divine wind, but usually associated with the destruction. Speaker 1 00:17:50 When Joseph interprets the dream of Pharaoh, that there would be seven years of famine in the dream. He says that the east wind is going to come and cause the famine and bring it when the plagues happen. It's the locus that are brought in on the east wind. And it talks about the east wind. You'll see it in the book of Mormon. You'd see about its destruction. Uh, look at the creation, the breadth of God, upon the wind, the spirit of God, moving upon there, this idea that chaos is going to be doomed. The dragon is going to be slain. So there's this idea of destruction to the chaos, but also this sense, that order is going to be coming from it. That something is being destroyed so that something else can be created. So something else can be born. It's an interesting concept. One that does not escape literature. Um, one of my favorite books, sir, Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes Speaker 2 00:18:44 Loves Sherlock Holmes. I love them. Speaker 1 00:18:46 Yes. So we're going to bring in a Sherlock Holmes reference this. This is his last bow bow bow Speaker 2 00:18:56 Bow. Speaker 1 00:18:57 My bad. Oh, Speaker 2 00:18:59 Is it on a boat? I don't know what you're talking about. The Speaker 1 00:19:01 Book, his last bow bow bow. Speaker 2 00:19:05 It's spelled bow. I think it's bow, but it might be bow. Okay. Speaker 1 00:19:10 Okay. Speaker 2 00:19:10 Keep going. Speaker 1 00:19:11 Anyhow. This is what Sherlock Holmes says. There's an east wind coming. Watson Watson. The reply is I think not homes. It is very warm, good old Watson. You were the one fixed point in a changing age. There's an east wind coming all the same. Such a wind has never blew on England yet it will be cold and bitter Watson and a good many of us may wither before it's blast, but it's God's own wind nonetheless. And the cleaner better, stronger land will lie in the sun sign when the storm has cleared Speaker 2 00:19:45 Love it. It reminds me a lot of the dualities that we speak about, right? Where something, where something that can create can destroy. And I, you kind of even brought it up to of like the idea of, um, the east wind being the idea of destruction. And in this case, it is also a destruction, right? But it's like the saving, it's the breath of life for the children of Israel. But it's also basically the word of condemnation for the, for the, the chariots and people following Moses out. Speaker 1 00:20:17 I absolutely love it because how many times in the scripture does it talk about the word of God being like a two-edged sword Speaker 2 00:20:24 Preach Speaker 1 00:20:25 Baby, and what his word, except for the wind or breath coming out of his mouth. And if you've got two edges, one being to save and the other being to destroy and through destruction, he is allowed to create or save. Speaker 2 00:20:42 And also too, we're told that by our words, we will either what saved or condemned or whatever, you know what I mean? Like bye buy Speaker 1 00:20:51 And you're judged by the Speaker 2 00:20:52 Word. That's what it is. We're judged. Yeah, exactly. And that's, I mean, I, I do love, I do love the idea that the, the throughout our lives, this things that we say will either be the things that save us or condemn us or the things that we do will either be the things that save us or condemn us Speaker 1 00:21:08 And the things that we read, right. If we're reading the scriptures and we know, but we still reject it, then that'll stand as a witness against it. But yet reading those words enables us some powers of Speaker 2 00:21:21 And ignorance. Right? Yeah. And so it's like the, w we're, we're basically reading the way to eternal life. But like you said, we're also responsible for those things that we know and understand the two-edged sword. I liked that I liked the east wind Speaker 1 00:21:35 Where we're talking about duality. Maybe we should get to the duality of water as Speaker 2 00:21:38 Well. Okay. All right, fantastic. Let's do it. Speaker 1 00:21:41 Because here we have a sea that is being parted, talking about the saving of, of Israel, but it's going to be flooding in and destroying them as they wander. What's one of the first things they happen is they get to an area where, where there is no fresh water to drink. They come to the waters of Mara. Right. Okay. And Mara, interestingly enough is the same Hebrew word from which we get the name of Jesus, his mother, Mary. It means bitter. Speaker 2 00:22:12 Interesting. Speaker 1 00:22:12 It's kind of weird, huh? So this water is called Mara because it is bitter. They can't drink it. It cannot sustain life. And we're talking about duality of, of water and like to see chaos destruction, but then the life giving water of, of providing life. Speaker 2 00:22:31 Kay. Speaker 1 00:22:32 So what they do Moses is, is commanded by the Lord to take a tree and put it in the water. And it, it purifies the water and makes it fresh. The tree we've talked about this before is an image of Christ. Look at the menorah. That's in the temple. We see it in the book of revelation when he's honest, this guided tour. And he looks at that the Lord calls him and he looks any beholds, the menorah. And then he sees the Lord in the midst of the manure, this idea, this imagery, which we also saw in the book of Mormon, when <inaudible> asks to understand the vision of the tree of life. And instead he sees the birth of our savior and says, now, do you understand the tree whose fruit is a Toman salvation? Speaker 2 00:23:20 Everlast yeah, exactly. Speaker 1 00:23:21 Yeah. He, his whole purpose, his role, his life was to provide salvation through this fruit. So this tree, as a symbol of Christ, who goes into the bitter waters and, and life, or the water becomes fresh, the water becomes this different kind of water to where it can save. And, and I look at this image of the water and the tree, and I can't help, but think of Mary and Jesus and the condition of mankind before Christ was born is a condition of bitterness. And yet from that bitterness is born Christ who was prepared from before the foundation of the world to heal the waters so that our life is no longer condemnation, but this blessing that we can be born again, that there can be living. There can be life in life, sustaining from the waters. Speaker 2 00:24:18 I wonder where, I wonder how this ties back into, um, Christ being given vinegar instead of water. Even at the very end. Like I wonder if it's just the completion of a cycle, right? Okay. Like, like, like, like Christ came, Christ came, like you said, from, from a world of bitterness to, to redeem the world. And even at the end still had to like descend below that all or something. You know, I, I, some, I guess I'm wondering where that ties back in Speaker 1 00:24:47 And maybe mankind offered him bitterness, but what did he return and exchange when his spear was thrust in the side, Speaker 2 00:24:53 Water, blood, and water. Speaker 1 00:24:56 So again, you have an Speaker 2 00:24:57 Interesting, Speaker 1 00:24:58 Again, you have this bitterness and yet this fresh water that we might offer bitterness, but he returns it and makes it sweet. Speaker 2 00:25:06 I love you, Jason. Speaker 1 00:25:07 And maybe he consecrates our bitterness, the experiences. So this is a sign that, you know, Israel is going to go through and they're going to have a very bitter experience there. They're going to not have Speaker 2 00:25:17 Served by the Speaker 1 00:25:18 Way. Let's talk about that too. Speaker 2 00:25:21 Let's talk about it, baby. Speaker 1 00:25:23 They're not going to have food. They're going to be wandering for a long time and they're going to have to fight. They're going to have to go through a lot. They're going to, it's going to be bitter. And he's going to consecrate that bitterness, that trial, that proving and refine a nation that can represent him for thousands of years afterwards. He's going to take that bitterness and make something of it. Speaker 2 00:25:46 Yeah. Cause they were bitter. It's hard to read some of these stories without just being like everybody out of the pool. Just kill them all. Well, leave a Moses. You did. You did your best buddy. Speaker 1 00:25:58 Well, was this was pretty, uh, pretty Speaker 2 00:25:59 Patient. I saw some, all right. Let's keep going. Speaker 1 00:26:03 He says he gets stuck in a hard place. A D do you want to talk about their, their complaining? Yes. Speaker 2 00:26:08 So that, so that at least nobody misunderstands whatsoever. Why? I have such an issue with the children of Israel throughout the next few weeks of podcasting. All Speaker 1 00:26:17 Right. Let's uh, let's hear it. Speaker 2 00:26:20 They're the worst man. Speaker 1 00:26:24 Okay. Let's uh, let's, I'll play the devil's advocate. Speaker 2 00:26:28 I, which you probably should do, because like, for me, I'm legitimately just like, see a guys. Speaker 1 00:26:34 You've got a million people. Speaker 2 00:26:36 Okay. Wait a million, Speaker 1 00:26:38 600,000 men And remember, Speaker 2 00:26:41 All right. Speaker 1 00:26:42 Pharaoh was trying to limit the birth. Speaker 2 00:26:45 He killed a bunch of the men. Okay. So, okay. So fine. Let's say a million people, you got a million people Speaker 1 00:26:50 And, and you're taking them with their flocks and, and he says, God wants us to leave this land. Okay. We're going on a prayer here. We're going to follow you. What now? Speaker 2 00:27:01 Instead of being slaves and just trodden down in this land where other people just abuse us and disrespect us. Yeah. Okay, cool. Speaker 1 00:27:09 Okay. I'll Speaker 2 00:27:10 Take, Speaker 1 00:27:11 Obviously, this is an excellent point. Do we exchange freedom for security? Speaker 2 00:27:18 This is why dude. That's my point, man. And by the way, this is the point that drives 99% of my politics. I'm just telling you the answer is no, I do not trade in safety for, for lack of freedom. Speaker 1 00:27:37 Yeah. Speaker 2 00:27:38 So I am judging them through that lens. Give me Liberty or give me death, baby. Proud to be an American. Speaker 1 00:27:48 It's an excellent question. Nope. Speaker 2 00:27:50 I mean it is, but I don't know for me, there's an answer to that question. That's all I'm saying. It's all I'm saying is that these dudes, the first thing they start doing is whine about, oh, we should just go back. Speaker 1 00:28:00 I would rather be a slave. I'd be like, Speaker 2 00:28:02 Send them back Moses, Speaker 1 00:28:03 Because at least as a slave, I was getting three square meals a day, Speaker 2 00:28:08 Moses, Speaker 1 00:28:09 A place to sleep. Speaker 2 00:28:10 I'll be like, peace. I'll even part the sea for you to get back across, Take the staff with you. I don't need it anymore. It's just going to get me in trouble. At this point. Speaker 1 00:28:24 Turns into the beating rods, spare the rods. Speaker 2 00:28:26 That's what I'm saying here. Take the, take the rod, have fun. Speaker 1 00:28:33 Okay. Speaker 2 00:28:34 Continue. Devil's advocate. Speaker 1 00:28:36 I'm not doing a very good job. Speaker 2 00:28:37 No, you're not convincing me of anything. Speaker 1 00:28:40 Okay. Speaker 2 00:28:41 I know God loved Speaker 1 00:28:41 Him. So you're on a camping trip. Speaker 2 00:28:43 Okay. Speaker 1 00:28:44 With a million other people. Speaker 2 00:28:45 Okay. It sounds like a party to me. All right. I love camping. Speaker 1 00:28:48 Um, and, and God says, Hey, come follow me. Yup. And you get into the wilderness and you're like, you know what? I'm getting kind of hungry. And you're looking around. There's not a lot of great options. Speaker 2 00:29:00 Here's a great option. What is it? You've got a million people. Speaker 1 00:29:04 Are you saying you eat them? No. Speaker 2 00:29:05 You go conquer somebody Speaker 1 00:29:09 Weaponize your Speaker 2 00:29:10 Army, bro. You're that hungry? Hey Moses, can we just go like murder these other people and take all their stuff? Sure. You got an army. Okay. Speaker 1 00:29:19 Okay. Then, then, then what do you do? Because you're not in charge and the guy that is in charge, has you camping right here? Not fighting other people. Right? Speaker 2 00:29:29 I mean, I guess that's why they're mad at Moses. Speaker 1 00:29:31 And I say, Moses, what now? Like you're, you're supposed to be this amazing leader. Speaker 2 00:29:36 Oh man, Speaker 1 00:29:37 We don't have food. Speaker 2 00:29:39 I guess hindsight's 20, 20. I that's your best point. By the way. That's your best point as devil's advocate, I'm making your best point for you. Jason is devil's advocate. Who I appreciate is that hindsight is 2020. Is that it's easy for us to look back and go like dudes, like, come on. Speaker 1 00:29:54 Hey, here's where I sympathize with them. And by the way, for the record, I'm with you on security, freedom, and any ways that that can be a whole political discussion that would take us down a rabbit hole. I don't want to go down. Let me, let me sum this up in another story from the new Testament. If I may Speaker 2 00:30:11 Please Speaker 1 00:30:12 Master the Tempest is raging Kara's down. Not that we perish, Are they not doing the same thing as Christ disciples, they're sitting on a boat in a storm and they think we are going to die. If you don't have fresh food and water, you are going to die in the wilderness. And you can even look at this from, from a faithful perspective in the sense that God promised Abraham seed. And if we sit here and die Carestream, not that we perish. What about the covenant with Abraham? What are we supposed to do? Are we supposed to, to accept God and die? Are we willing to be the Isaac that the Lord is asking us to be? Are we willing to sacrifice ourselves so that this nation can be established and still somehow believe in the impossible that this nation will be established? If we die as a people, That's a hard ask. All Speaker 2 00:31:17 Right. Speaker 1 00:31:18 Can you blame them for waking the master? When they say, Hey, this storm is going crazy. Speaker 2 00:31:23 It's a thing as if it was a one-time thing. No, no. If it's a one-time thing. No. If, if it's, if it's a we're, we're pretty hungry. What are we going to do? I'm like, okay, I get that. But it's just the constant constant complaining. Well, Speaker 1 00:31:41 And let me Speaker 2 00:31:42 Think. We should just go back to Egypt. Fine, go back. It's just the constant complaining and words that I'm not going to say on this podcast, but you know what I mean? Just like if I was Moses at a certain point, I'd be like, leave, find, go back. Any of the rest of you that would like to not be in bondage and actually make it to the promised land. Eventually you come with me, everybody else. See ya, by the way, you don't need all those people. Moses, you don't need a million people. You didn't need that. You look at all of the stories that we're going to get to in the old Testament. You need a small, but faithful crew. Speaker 1 00:32:20 Yes. Speaker 2 00:32:21 See you guys. We're moving on without you. Speaker 1 00:32:26 So why didn't he say see you Speaker 2 00:32:27 Because he loved him too much, man. I don't know. Speaker 1 00:32:30 Thank you. He Speaker 2 00:32:31 Loved him. He loved him more than I would. And by the way, this is probably, this is probably the point that that makes to me more than anything. It's it's probably why I've literally come to think. Maybe Moses is the dopest of all of the guys in these things, because this, this prophet loved his people so much that even, even if the Lord's going, Hey, Moses, do you want me to take care of this Moses? Like I love them. Remember that you love them too, please. I'm just like Moses. You're the, your literally my favorite guy. Speaker 1 00:33:05 I think it shows incredible love that that regardless of how they felt, they're terrified when, when Pharaoh comes after them, it says sore afraid. And I don't think sore afraid translates very well. I think extremely terrified, probably resonates a little bit more. These people were afraid and these people wanted security. They were used to security and they were not used to freedom. And this is a very big transition for them. And they're not sure what to do. They're looking for Moses to lead them. And it seems interesting that God would, again and again, put them in a situation where they would be tested, where they would not have enough where they were. They quite honestly questioned whether they would still be alive with what God was asking them to do. Why would God do that? Why wouldn't God lead them to a nice, fresh area? It's his people. He loves them. But he Speaker 2 00:34:02 Did Speaker 1 00:34:05 Not now. Not yet, Speaker 2 00:34:07 But I'm saying he did though. Speaker 1 00:34:08 Hindsight. Speaker 2 00:34:09 He leads them there. They send in the spies. And what does everybody do? Speaker 1 00:34:14 We're not there yet. Speaker 2 00:34:15 Chicken out. I was like, dude, you got a million people. It's time to it's time to seize the palace boys, Speaker 1 00:34:28 But we're not there yet. Okay. But Speaker 2 00:34:30 We're not there yet. But we're Speaker 1 00:34:32 Then the, where he leads him to the dead sea. Well, that actually works out for their benefit. Speaker 2 00:34:36 But then seeing this is my point. This is the whole like Laman and Lemuel thing. Speaker 1 00:34:40 Then he leads him to the bitter waters. Still ends up making it work out for them. Speaker 2 00:34:43 That's my point. This is the you're now making my point for me. You're doing a terrible job as the devil's advocate. Speaker 1 00:34:51 I've never been a good devil. Speaker 2 00:34:53 You're doing a terrible job at it because the point now is for me, miracle, miracle, you're saved. There's no problem. There's no problem saved. See perspective, perspective, perspective. It's the layman unlimited thing, dude, at a certain point with those guys, you've seen enough to know better, Speaker 1 00:35:07 But what is easier to focus on? Is it the miracles in the past that have blessed you? Or is it the hardships that you're facing in front of you? That you're not sure how you're going to get there. Speaker 2 00:35:16 I understand that that's human nature. And again, I actually appreciate that lesson in here by the way, too. And, and it's something, it's something that I talk about constantly because it's truly the most present thing that I have to continually learn and remind myself. And that is in the moment. Things overwhelming and themes seem impossible. I get that that's human nature is that no matter how much evidence we have, that things are going to work out okay. If you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, being stuck in a present crisis is overwhelming. And it feels, it feels like it's the only thing. And then, and then time gives you perspective and you go, oh yeah, that's yet another example. But I'm just saying, it's like, dude, at a certain point, when, when are we not responsible for keeping perspective? Like it a certain point, when should we not be expected to have PR perspective on these things? Or, or is it just that's the human experience? Speaker 1 00:36:20 And I think that's why it became critical for God to say, to tell Moses. And the Lord said unto Moses, write this for a Memorial in a book and rehearse it. It's not just that this happened. I want everyone to remember this happened because you are going to be tested. And I think, I think where we see this and God's rationale and, and Israel's relationship play out most significantly is in the story of the manna when they're hungry and they don't have anything to eat, God says he's going to bless them with manna. But he also tells them that this is going to be something that he's going to use them to prove them with. Speaker 2 00:37:09 Love it. Speaker 1 00:37:10 And if he sends the manner and you know the story very well, he sends the manner, not just by itself, but with specific instructions on how much you should gather every day. And what happens with the people when it first shows up, they hoard it. And the man of that, they hoard that is an excess of what they're commanded to gather. Rots goes bad, has worms, unusable. And then when it comes to the Sabbath, they say, okay, double how much you're going to get on Saturday. And, and the people having experienced. So now they're leaning on their own understanding their own wisdom, their own experience, which we should to some point, right? No, I don't, I don't trust that God's right on this. Are you sure? Because last time I did this, it went wrong and it did not go good for me. I think I'm just going to gather only enough for today and go out tomorrow and gather what I want and what happens to them. The people that gathered extra, they have plenty for the Sabbath day to get them through. And those who didn't were sorely disappointed the next morning when there's no manna for them together. Speaker 2 00:38:17 It's funny. Cause like that's the key to this being a faith driven situation, right? Is that there's a different rule for the Sabbath than it is for, you know what I mean? Cause then you can't logically work your way through it logically it doesn't make any sense to have it be totally one way for six days and then totally a different way for the 7 35 and six days. You know what I mean? For it to be a faithful thing, it has to defy logic. Speaker 1 00:38:42 So take this people before the example of the Manor and look at their, their track record of listening to what God says on the first time and not a good Speaker 2 00:38:54 Track Speaker 1 00:38:54 Record. And let me ask this question, okay, if you want a people to represent you over the next 4,000 years, and you want the Passover, which you just walked away from, and we talked about this last week, how powerful the Passover is as a prophecy of Christ in his coming and his, his death and how he was going to die. And standing as a testimony 2000 years, even before he came, I don't know that there is any better witness to the atonement than the Passover itself would up people as you see them, right with the first Manoj, would that people be able to carry that tradition for 4,000 years would have people that didn't go through this learning curve that weren't forced to go in and rely on the Lord that didn't see those miracles that, that, that weren't tested and proven wrong over and over and over again until they get it right. What nation would have carried that tradition for thousands of years that hadn't gone through that process that hadn't been told, no, this is why you have to obey it down to the very letter. Speaker 1 00:40:11 I think, I think that right there is the reason why you see these people being led in areas where there is no water, where there is no bread where they do have the manna and they're taught, this is what you need to do. And this is why it's important that you do it with exactness. And this is why you need to obey. And this is why you need to observe this, to train them, to, to discipline them one, to become a nation, but to, to become a testimony to the world about the role of Christ and what he was going to play. Speaker 2 00:40:46 Fantastic. Let's keep going. Speaker 1 00:40:47 Speaking on the Sabbath. When we're talking about the observant there, these, these Jews become extremely observant and maybe I should say Hebrews because Speaker 2 00:40:57 We're it the Jews totally. But Speaker 1 00:40:59 Yes, the, the, the Hebrew people become extremely observant to the Sabbath. To the point of, if you're doing something on the Sabbath you get killed. Have we, and I, I find one extreme here in the old Testament, but in the new Testament, you see the opposite extreme when Christ is walking with his disciples and people criticize them for gleaning, some corner doing, doing work on the Sabbath. And Christ says that the Sabbath was created for man, not man for the Sabbath. So you have these two opposite extremes. Where, where did those extremes meet? And is there a balance? We say, yes, we need to be observant. And yes, we need to be a disciplined people. And yes, we need to be a faithful people, a proven people, but what's the reason what, what, why disciplined in what faith in what? It's not faith in the actions. It's not faith in the rights, it's faith in God. And when you replace God with the actions, with the ceremonies, with what you're doing, you've lost the point it's it's. It can never be faith in baptism. It can never be faith in a ritual. It can never be faith in, in that the waters will separate. That has to be faith in God that he will guide you through there. And that's where I find the balance between old Testament, new Testament, trying to pull us and center us in that Speaker 2 00:42:25 Fantastic good life lesson in there too. Speaker 1 00:42:28 Okay. Let's uh, let's talk about hands. We're probably just about running out of time. Yeah. Yep. This, this I think is maybe the most important part of this lesson. When you see hand in, in the old Testament, sometimes you can translate this word as power, and it's a symbol of the open hand, which is a direction or strength. And in here you see it very often as the strength of the Lord, the hand of the Lord, and God is using his strength to pull his people out and to deliver them. But you also see, I tried to find the best way to say this hand. If we look at just the Exodus account from Exodus chapter two to Exodus chapter 17, the end of where we're at with this lesson today, that the word hand has already shown up almost 70 times. That's a lot. Speaker 1 00:43:19 And when you look at the miracles, yes, Moses raises a rod to part the sea, but he also stretches his hand forth. And in some instances you don't even notice that the word hand is being used because they translated as the works. When they saw the works of God with the plagues, then they, then they were impressed. It's not works in Hebrew it's hand when they saw the hand of God, this, this idea of hand and strength is being played very repetitively. You'll see it repeat itself many, many times throughout these verses throughout these chapters, it's something significant. And in the old Testament, when they would pray, they would often pray without stretched hands and lifting your hands to God was a sign of praying, was asking for help and pleading for his strength. And the story I want to end this on was we're talking about hands and how this shows up multiple times. Is it the very last chapter here? 17, when the Lord commands Moses, that they're going to have to go and fight the people of ambulate. Moses holds his hands up. And as he's holding the hands up, the people of Israel are, are prevailing or persevering. But of course, if you hold your hands up or your hands get tired and they start to drop, they start to fall. So what does he have to happen? He's got Joshua and Caleb that come on, either side as Speaker 2 00:44:50 Counselors. Speaker 1 00:44:50 Yeah. And they support him and hold his hands up so that they can prevail. They Speaker 2 00:44:54 Sustain him. Speaker 1 00:44:55 They sustain him lifting the hands up is one, a symbol of God's might his power. We've talked about this dualistic nature. He is saving them with his hand by establishing them as nation, but smiting the ambulance at the same time. But to the idea of being able to prevail through prayer as Moses has his arms stretched to heaven, it is a sign and a symbol of prayer. And as long as Israel is willing to pray, they will persevere pray, always that you will not faint, that you will come off conquer. Speaker 2 00:45:35 And it's interesting. Cause I think that it's important to acknowledge that the action of prayer is also a symbol of a lot of things, too. God knows what we need. God knows the thoughts of our heart. God knows the things that we're thankful for. He knows those things. Speaker 2 00:45:52 So then it begs the question, okay, well then why is praying important? Right. If God already knows those things, why is the process of that important? And is it the symbolisms in the idea of humility, right? The, the, the, the pride, pride being the thing that drives, I mean, almost all of the downfall of civilizations. Right. And what is the, what is the opposite of that humility? What more of a humble at, could you perform before God? Other than, yes. I know. I know that you already know all of these things, but let me kneel before you bow, before you plead, before you, you know what I mean? And, and, and verbally thank you for these things or, or, or within your heart. I don't know. It's like, I think that that's, you're, I think you're making your point, but I've, I've always, I think kind of tried to maybe take that a step further and go, but why, like, why is prayer important if God already knows those things? Speaker 2 00:46:53 And I think that that's it though, right? That it's, that it's also a symbol. It's also, it's, it's also a process of, of humbling yourself. It is. It's an, and I say that, I think specifically I had, I had this conversation with my friend Trey, um, sometime ago where, you know, I kind of like, yeah, man, I don't even ask for anything in prayers because I feel, I feel unworthy to ask for anything prayers. I'm always like, my prayers are, my life is so awesome. And I know that it's, I don't deserve it, but please let it continue. Cause it's awesome. Right. And my friend, Trey scold me. He's like, nah, he's like, you're commanded to ask for things. When you pray to your commanded to your expected, God, God, that's, that's assigned to God that, that you rely on him. That is, uh, you know, like that's, that's part of praying too. And it's kind of reshaped the way that I've understood or even approached praying. But I don't know, am I totally off on this? Speaker 1 00:47:51 No, that's an interesting thought. And I was thinking, as you were saying that, and maybe this is a little different, but the, you look at how people do a bestie and SRE when they kneel down in there and they're laying their hands down, this idea that they're surrendering. And even now today, if somebody sticks a gun at you, I mean, what's the idea that you Speaker 2 00:48:11 Put your hands up, Speaker 1 00:48:12 Hands up and this idea that I surrender. And when you talk about humility that I am willing to submit to your will, that I admit that you're more powerful or that I'm not going to win in this confrontation, this, this idea of surrendering to God and prayer, even though hand is a symbol of strength, maybe you're S you're admitting a strength greater than yours. And by admitting that there's a strength greater than yours, going back to what you're saying by asking him for help, you're admitting that you can't do it Speaker 2 00:48:42 Yourself. Exactly right. Speaker 1 00:48:44 You don't have, that means that capability, or even if you do, you think you do, but you need his help. And, and that surrender is a, I think a powerful lesson that the Israelites needed to learn. Speaker 2 00:48:58 Fantastic. Speaker 1 00:49:00 Do you have to Speaker 2 00:49:01 Work as always? Speaker 1 00:49:02 Do you have, do you have time for me to finish my Moab story in, in one and one wrap Speaker 2 00:49:07 Up K quick. Speaker 1 00:49:08 Okay. This, this, this little three hour John from 5:00 AM to 8:00 AM turned into too much longer than that. We actually had to get pulled out by search and rescue by 5:00 PM. And we did not have breakfast with us. We did not have lunch with us. And we, we ran out of water by 11:00 AM and, and these boys, it was over a hundred degrees outside, extremely hot. And our group started to split up with the stronger ones, trying to get out to the front, get some water and some help, and some aid back, get search and rescue or whatever it was to try to turn this. It turned into a rescue mission pretty quick. And it, as I was pushing forward with, with this small number of boys, I remembered the story of Moses. And in the, he, you know, he touches the rock and water comes out of the rock when they were, when they were thirsty. Speaker 1 00:49:59 And I prayed, boy, I prayed really hard in my mind and I prayed to God out loud. And I said, God, if, if Moses could, could touch a rock and have water come out, we right now are in a very desperate hour of need. Can you please have water come out of a rock for us? And it seemed like a tall order, something crazy or insane to be asking for. But, but right after I had prayed, as we came running around the band and up the trail a little ways, there was a stream of water that came right out of a rock across the trail in front of us. And that trail of water it's, it's been there for, for a long time. I'm sure when we go back to the miracles, I don't know if the miracle was necessarily the water coming out of the rock or just being the right place at the right time. Speaker 1 00:50:46 But for me having said that prayer and having come across that source and being able to pull out a water purifier, I had the pack and get everybody situated with the water and having that miracle happened the way it did a powerful lesson to me. And going back to the Israelites, maybe their fault, isn't so much that they were in a desperate situation and they were crying to God, but that they were crying without trying to figure out what they needed to ask for. Like you Nate, like you say, the idea that you do ask God for help, that, that you do, like, Neefa try to find a solution and say, this is what I need. Or the brother of Jarrod, that here are some stones. Will you touch these? Or like, we've just barely read with, with Jacob looking at his son saying, why are you staring at each other when there's food in Egypt? Speaker 1 00:51:37 Maybe we need to be looking at our situation. And yes, maybe it's desperate. Maybe we're going through some rough times. Maybe we're learning obedience ourselves and ask ourselves, what does the Lord want me to do about this? And then take that answer to the Lord and ask him, what am I supposed to learn about this situation? How can I be better because of it? How can you consecrate my efforts then what do I do to show the Lord that you're not just giving up and having him do it? Because he is never about just security and safety and comfort. If we remember right, his plan from the very beginning was a plan of Liberty and a freedom and, and, and us being self-sustaining and helping us to be able to stand on our own two feet. Speaker 2 00:52:25 Amen, brother, couldn't agree with you more. And I think that that is a fantastic way to wrap up this episode. Thank you. Thank you for that perspective and for that thought for your preparation. Speaker 1 00:52:34 Thank you, Nate. Speaker 2 00:52:35 What are we talking about next week? Speaker 1 00:52:36 Next week? We are actually talking about Easter. Sorry. I threw that on you a week earlier. Speaker 2 00:52:40 No, it's fine. So we got Easter next week and then we'll be back at the regular schedule podcasts. Speaker 1 00:52:45 Yes, Speaker 2 00:52:45 Sir. Okay. Well until next week, Speaker 1 00:52:47 See ya.