D&C 63 (2020 Repost)

[00:00:06] Speaker A: Give Seb a little stream Give, oh give give, oh give give Seb a little stream as it hurried down the hill in defense of primary God has given each of us talents and expects us to use them. Singing all the day Give away oh give away Singing singing all the day Give, oh, give away When God gives us talents and commands us to use them, he gets very upset when we don't sing in primary. So in defense of primary, this week we would just like to encourage all of our listeners who teach in primary, like I did for eight years of my church service, in various roles and capacities, or if you have primary age kids, or if you're in the primary presidency, or if you don't even have anything to do with the primary, but you can at least go up there in the ward choir and use the talents that God's given you. Don't hide them, don't bury them. God gave you those talents for a reason. Okay, Jason? Jason, God expects you to sing in the choir. Okay, bro? [00:01:23] Speaker B: In defense of primary in defense of primary, On a semi serious note, I. [00:01:31] Speaker A: Would say you're doing great over this music, by the way. [00:01:36] Speaker B: I would say that God does speak in layers and we take parables and we can understand them in all sorts of different ways. So, okay, we have been a little bit hard on the primary lately and we did want to. [00:01:48] Speaker A: I wasn't being hard on the primary. I was being hard on the people that said that the towns didn't have anything to do with money. So. But whatever, we're start. If it sounded like we were being hard on the primary, I wanted to do my best in singing a primary song to start. Just to show you that. I also think that you probably should sing in the choir if you can use your talents. All right, Jason. [00:02:08] Speaker B: Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the Add on Education Network. The podcast where we explore the weekly Come follow me discussion and try to add a little insight, unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here in the studio with my friend and this show's producer, Nate Pifer. [00:02:26] Speaker A: How you just said Nate Pifer. I have an idea that I'm going to do in post. You're going to love this. [00:02:32] Speaker B: It's good to be back from five minutes ago. [00:02:35] Speaker A: You mean last week? [00:02:36] Speaker B: I mean last last week. [00:02:39] Speaker A: Last week. Man, last week. That was some heavy lifting, you know. [00:02:42] Speaker B: And last week we didn't quite get to. Well, we never do. I don't know why I'm calling out last week. We never get to all of the scriptures, but there are a Few things I wanted to cover in Doctrine and Covenants 61, as we talked about the land and the earth, and 1s being blessed and the other is being cursed. And then we were going to dive into Doctrine and covenants section 63, as they are talking about signs and what we should do as far as seeking signs or not seeking signs. And we are going to get to one of my favorite favorite stories from Joseph Smith. So let's get into it. In Doctrine and covenants section 61, it says that the water is cursed. And the context of this is the missionaries. And you know what? This probably does fit really well with the context that you were giving us last week. And it probably would have been in there. So sorry I didn't bridge you. It's all right. [00:03:37] Speaker A: Let's do it. Let's do it right now. Keep going. [00:03:39] Speaker B: But the idea is that they are coasting down the Missouri river to get to another spot. And meanwhile, the Lord points out there are people on either side of the river that are getting skipped. So if we are talking about your responsibility to share the gospel to these people, and yet you are hiding your talent by just cruising down the river and missing all of these people that the Lord wanted you to talk to. So the Lord is talking about them and saying, I prefer that you travel over land, and I prefer. Prefer that you be opening your mouth rather than kind of looking for the easy way out and traveling around a lot of the people and missing the opportunity to speak to them. And if it was just that simple, it would make sense. It would be good. But then the Lord says that the earth he had cursed in the beginning and the waters he had blessed, but now he has cursed the waters, and the earth has he blessed. And he says that the destroyer is riding upon the waters. And. And then this has spawned all sorts of urban legends as far as missionaries and what they can do or cannot do in water. And what in the world is going on here and what are we to make of this? What are we to understand from Doctrine and covenants, Section 61? So, starting off, let's talk about the earth. The Lord, when he says that it is cursed, we get that. We can read it. In Genesis, chapter one, the Lord says that at the beginning we had this garden paradise that Adam didn't have to do a whole lot of work to get food or take care of himself. It just grew. It was there. But as he's cast out of the garden now, he has to start providing for himself. And he says, by the sweat of thy brow, and the earth, which produced all sorts of fruit before, is now producing thorns and thistles. And then our favorite, right. Who here hasn't been out in the garden weeding, whether we wanted to or not, trying to keep order on an otherwise chaotic garden. And so the Lord, where he's cursed it at the beginning, now says he's blessed it. Is it any different? Because when I go out into my garden today, there are still weeds and it still needs to be pulled. And it is kind of fascinating how this works, the biodiversity and the plants and the science behind it. And I am not going to go down the rabbit hole on that. But it seems just as cursed to me, unless back in the day it was even more hard. But it's not until I actually take a step back and look at this, a big picture point of view that I actually get an appreciation of an idea that the earth was cursed and now was blessed for our benefit. So if I go to the 1800s, 90% of the population here in the United States lived on farms. 90%. And today that number is about 1%. Yeah, the earth at this point, 1% of the population is able to provide food to support 100% of the population, whereas before 90% were working to do it. So has the Lord blessed the earth? I mean, as we look at it from that point of view, when is the last time most of us have had to toil for our work by the sweat of our brow have we provided for our families, present company included. I sit in an air conditioned office and most of the work I do is problem solving or working on a computer and doesn't involve back breaking labor or fighting back thorns and thistles and getting scratched up and working all day just to get enough food to be able to provide for my family. [00:07:23] Speaker A: I sit in the studio and play Mario Kart and eat food with my friends all day. And I couldn't grow a weed if I tried. I'm serious. [00:07:33] Speaker B: So to me, has the curse been removed? The Lord says it has been removed. And in context of that, it seems like a large part of it has. It seems like we are blessed to be able to accomplish, I don't know, the Lord is hastening his work in these last days. It is kind of cool, it is kind of neat to see the earth being blessed and able to provide in a sense, in a way that we can get an education that we're not learning how to go to war. We don't have to work all this other stuff that it's still rewarding. We still do it from time to time. We still have our own hobbies, our own gardens that we grow in our yard or whatever the case may be. But it's no longer, hey, if I don't get this done, if I don't go milk the cows, they die, I die, we all die. Things have changed a little bit just within the last couple hundred years. Anyhow, the earth makes sense now. Let's dive into the water. And I think that's where we're going to spend actually most of our time talking about this. What does it mean by the water being cursed? And I mean, how are we supposed to take this? And this is talking specifically. The Lord gives us the revelation with the Missouri river. And the Lord says, He says that there are a lot of disasters that are going to be happening in the future. You are like, oh shoot, what kind of disasters? What is he talking about? Have we seen it? Have we not seen it? So I went to the State of Missouri's website and they have this Digital Heritage section that talks a little bit about their history. Get this, this is what it said right on the website. And I will quote it word for word. No other kind of natural disaster has caused more death and destruction than floods. Bounded on the east by the Mississippi river and bisected by the Missouri river and connecting rivers and streams. There's a rich historical record of floods in Missouri. And I thought that was interesting because Missouri, you're right in Tornado Alley, right? I would be a lot more afraid of tornadoes in my mind, but I haven't lived there than I would be of flooding. But to have them stay outright. No other kind of natural disaster has caused more death and destruction than floods. It makes me think twice about what the Lord was saying here with these rivers. The most destructive flood in US history actually occurred in Missouri in 1927 when the Mississippi river flooded. July 1844 was the greatest ever Missouri river flood where it crested and rised 41.32ft in St. Louis it is called the Great Flood of 1844. So it does have a history of some crazy incidents back there. But it goes more than that, deeper than just Missouri, but global wide. As I was reading a commentary on Doctrine and Covenants they said many have seen in the World War that broke out in 1914. So we are talking about World War I. A remarkable fulfillment of these predictions concerning troubles upon the waters. The extent of the losses of ships and lives is hardly realized. On 21 March 1916 it was reported from Washington that more than 2,000 merchant vessels had been sunk by U boats and mines. [00:10:59] Speaker A: Crazy. [00:11:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Think about that. One day, March 21, 1916, 2000. And we're not talking about warships. 2,000 merchant vessels sunk by U boats and mines. It's pretty wild. And as I was looking. Let's see it. Talked about this on the global site. Let me try to pull this up real quick. [00:11:33] Speaker A: While you're pulling that up, it made me think, are there sharks in Missouri? [00:11:37] Speaker B: No, not that I'm aware of. [00:11:40] Speaker A: Okay, well, that's good, because I hate sharks, man. I'm terrified of sharks. And honestly, when you're saying, like, there's flooding and tornadoes, I was like, sharknado. [00:11:48] Speaker B: No sharknado. [00:11:49] Speaker A: Because if so, that seems like that'd be the perfect place to have it. And that's terrifying. [00:11:54] Speaker B: That would be terrifying. So from the United. [00:11:56] Speaker A: Love how you just. Just blew right past that. Yeah, that would be terrifying. [00:12:00] Speaker B: So there are sharks in Utah. They have a little shark dive. You could do it. [00:12:04] Speaker A: Don't lie. [00:12:05] Speaker B: I'm not lying at all. [00:12:07] Speaker A: In which lake? [00:12:08] Speaker B: It's not in the lake. They have it just off of the salt lake. They've created, like, this ocean saltwater dive. There's actually more people in Utah than the entire California that get scuba certified. Even though there's no ocean in Utah. I thought that was kind of weird. [00:12:23] Speaker A: Is that true? [00:12:24] Speaker B: It was when we took our scouts to get scuba certified back in the day when scouts existed. [00:12:31] Speaker A: Rest in peace. [00:12:33] Speaker B: So going back to the United States. [00:12:38] Speaker A: Here, if you could see me, I'm holding up three fingers like a good Eagle Scout would. [00:12:42] Speaker B: You're an Eagle Scout, Nate? [00:12:44] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm an Eagle Scout. [00:12:45] Speaker B: Hey, me too. There we go. [00:12:46] Speaker A: That's why we're responsible. That's why we can get jobs, I think is what they told me. All right, you can just blow right past me, Jason. I'm just stalling for time while you pull that up. [00:12:56] Speaker B: Well, thank you. So the UN According to the United nations, around 74% of all natural disasters between 2001 and 2018 were water related. And during the past 20 years, the number of deaths caused only by floods and droughts exceeded 166,000, while floods and droughts affected over 3 billion people and caused a total economic damage of almost $700 billion. Unreal. I didn't realize there was this much going on. I mean, I think of waters and I think of swimming and boating and skiing and what's the problem with that? But it does seem like there have been a lot of destruction, particularly 2004 when we had that huge tsunami that wiped out, what was it, 200,000 people within a matter of hours. Just some incredible, incredible things have happened. But I don't want to get on the literal too much on this. I did take kind of a dive. Looking at some of these numbers, looking at some of these statistics, I thought it was interesting. But I think what might be more interesting to me is the symbolic side of this. What is the waters? What is he talking about? What is the meaning behind this? And I feel like we have talked about this a little bit when we were talking about the center place. And the idea, if we go back to the creation account, that God, as the waters recede, he stands on the center place and he organizes out of the chaos, creation. And it talks about the spirit of God brooding upon the face of the waters. And God spoke, and he divided the waters from above, the land from the waters which were below, and he gathered all of the waters together and he called them seas. But. But he's imposing his will on the waters and waters. In many different societies and cultures in the ancient near east was what was referred to as chaos. The idea that this chaos, this monster was this sea monster, this chaotic waters, often associated with the salt waters or the ocean. The idea that if you went out to sea, a lot of times they didn't come back or they died. Storms. I mean, look at the story of Jonah. A fairly regular deal. If you get caught out at sea in a storm, it's a bad deal. And you look at biblical history, look at the founding of Israel. How did they get out of Egypt? And how do they escape if it's not first stopping at the Red Sea and God showing his mastery over the waters, smiting them, saying here represents a new creation. Go back even further. What happens when God floods the entire Earth is symbolic that chaos has taken over. And because chaos is all reigning the world over because there's no more righteous people, they've lost order. He sends chaos to wipe out the chaos and then imposes order and starts all over again by having the flood waters recede and this new creation, this new garden. Because what happens is he steps out of the ark. Here he is. This ark is what saves him. This paradise with all of the animals and all of the plants, almost like the Garden of Eden. They are leaving Eden and starting all over as the waters recede across the face of the Earth. Look at the Jaredites. How did they get to the Promised Land if it is not crossing these. [00:16:14] Speaker A: Stormy waters in boats tight like unto. [00:16:17] Speaker B: A dish Tight, like unto a dish. And later, Lehi's family doing the same thing, showing mastery over the waters. And perhaps that is why it is such a powerful image to me. When they are in the Sea of Galilee and. And a storm kicks up and master, the tempest is raging and what does he do? He shows his mastery over the waters by standing up and saying, peace be still. So symbolically talking here, and the Lord is saying that the waters are cursed or that the destroyer rides upon the face of the waters. There is some significance to waters representing this chaos. And that chaos rules in a world that's lacking order because the kingdom of God has been off the face of the earth for some time. Apostasy has ruled darkness and water. So now God is coming again to establish order and reign superior over these waters. And it's interesting, I guess, maybe a little bit of history for you. The Ark of the Covenant. We know the Ark of the Covenant as the mercy seat that sat in the holy of holies, in the temple at Jerusalem, and before that at the tabernacle that they traveled through the wilderness. And we say Ark of the Covenant. And I don't think we think twice about it. I mean, yeah, it's the Ark of the Covenant, but the first word there, ark, means it was a boat. [00:17:45] Speaker A: I have thought about this actually. Yeah, I'm proud of myself now because I've actually thought about this in the past, going like, what am I missing here? [00:17:51] Speaker B: Yeah, why are they calling it an ark? And in Babylonian, they had the Akitu festival. This is their New Year's festival. And what they would do is the temple housed their gods, and they would go to the temple, make a journey to the temple with a boat, and they would go in and take a miniature version of the God out of the temple and put it into the boat. And then they would travel around the city and then they would bring it back. And this idea that God travels in a boat, his seat is on an ark. And. And look at pearl of great price. I know we've been here once or twice in another episode. We've talked about these images, the facsillomies, right? There is a picture that seal, that round picture. And you look in the top right hand corner and there's a picture of a guy sitting in a boat. And you look at the description for the guy sitting in the boat and it says God sitting on his throne. And the thing is, God's throne, his mercy seat was an ark, which was a boat. And in other cultures they would even have tie up Posts at the top of the temple. And this idea that God would travel from wherever he is in the heavens by boat to cross the seas, that was space because you got this blue sky that he would have to cross this ocean and they would have tie up posts at the top of the temple for them to tie his boat to so that he could come down and visit his temple. And even the Hebrew word for heaven is sha Mayim and shah in Hebrew means there and mayim means water. So the word for heaven in Hebrew literally is there is water. So the waters above the earth, from the waters below this earth. And the idea that you have to travel through water to get to where God is, or God has to travel through water to get to where we are. And this chaos that we're having to pass through and impose order on. I mean, take a look at baptism again and maybe that changes our perspective. This idea that we have to travel through the waters to get to where God is, that we have to conquer this chaos, that we have to find a way to impose order on our own lives and go through a new creation as we try to change and as we try to repent and become like him. But I don't know, I love that. [00:20:10] Speaker A: It's fantastic insight. I'm going to use that for my next baptism speech that I have to give. Inevitably, sometime in this, in this world they're going to be like really dog. Like, yeah. 30 minutes later, 20 minutes later, I'm going to be like, I'm still going. There's some symbolism here. A bunch of like six year old kids staring at me, picking their nose. It's going to be great. Well, in defense of primary though, and. [00:20:37] Speaker B: Next time you're at the temple, maybe look for. Because it happens, water imagery as you are looking to create water was always closely associated with the temple. You look at a lot of the temples and they have fountains of water on the outside. And you will also look at the carvings like in the glass at Timpanogos Temple. You will notice that it has got waves in it. Or if you look at some of the wallpaper, some of what they do in the room, they've got these rolling waves. Or this idea that this imagery of water and chaos shows itself throughout sacred space. [00:21:14] Speaker A: Like everything else, I love that there's, that there's always the. The not dichotomy, but there's definitely the. There's definitely the. There's the two sides of that where it's like Christ is the living water. Without water we would die. Our bodies are made up of water to the same percentage that the earth is made up with water. Yet it can also be like this destructive, crazy, like you said, chaotic thing. I always love looking at the things that we need can also be the things that can kill us type of a thing. I don't know. There's always kind of an interesting thought exercise. [00:21:50] Speaker B: Well, it is interesting because not only do you have this chaos waters associated with Eden as the water recedes on this hill, this creation spot where it creates the world, but what else does it say about the Garden of Eden? [00:22:03] Speaker A: Wasn't there like seven rivers coming out of it or something? [00:22:05] Speaker B: Four rivers. And the reason they say four. Four is symbolic of the four corners of the Earth. So this is the fountain of living waters to which from Eden the whole earth is watered. This idea that the water comes out of Eden and flows to cover the whole earth. And you're right, like God is the source of our salvation, but he's also there condemning. [00:22:28] Speaker A: Well, in Lehi's dream, wasn't it everybody drowning in the fountain too? You know what I mean? It's like the fountain of living water, but then also, also the people that lost their way trying to get over to the great and spacious building were all drowning. Isn't that part of it? Or am I misremembering? [00:22:43] Speaker B: No, you were 100% right because you get both representations. Because Nephi is asking to understand the vision. In one case they are referring to it as these living waters, and on the other case they are referring to it as this gulf of misery that people fall into the waters, this destruction or this hell. So you get both represented at the exact same time. [00:23:07] Speaker A: I wonder what the. I mean, I think I might. I think I might have ideas of why, but I wonder, I wonder the reasoning of having it both be. I mean, is. Is. Is it as simple as that we're going to be either saved or condemned by our own words or our actions, or like what, what we do with. You know what I mean? Like how we choose to partake of that living water is going to be the thing that either we're saved by or condemned by. Like, I mean, is it that simple? [00:23:36] Speaker B: I mean, Christ was the cornerstone, right? This foundation stone that we should be building on. Yet he's also referred to as a stumbling block. The stone that they rejected that now they're stumbling over that this is what's destroying them. [00:23:51] Speaker A: Maybe it is, maybe it is that. Maybe it is that simple. I like it. [00:23:56] Speaker B: But it is interesting because you do have these dichotomies all the time. And I guess to separate the two, you would look at, oftentimes they would look at the fresh water as the waters of living, the source of life, right? Whereas if you are looking at the salt waters, you can't drink it. And usually what you are doing with the salt water is you are crossing it in a boat and you are taking your life in your hands. If the storm kicks up or the waves, it's not this life giver, it's that chaotic force. And so it's almost the salt water versus the fresh water. But it is an interesting idea. And the Lord says, he talks about the Missouri river in particular as having been a source of great destruction. And I look at that and say, whatever happened with the Missouri river that would have made it that destructive? Are we waiting for some great event to happen on the Missouri river, or is this something that already happened? But think about this. When we talked about Eden and this being having a river that flowed out of it. And then Joseph Smith is saying that the Garden of Eden was right there in Missouri, close to the Missouri River. This is where they lived in this part of the world, according to Revelation. But where did they end up? Right, you look at after Noah and after the flood, and they named the Tigris and the Euphrates after all the names that they were using from wherever they were, because that's what they're familiar with in this new land. Right? Just like we have New York versus Old York or New Mexico, whatever the case may be right now you have all of these names, but it's a different part of the world. So where did the flood happen? Where did all of this take place? If he's talking about the flood that wiped out the entire world in respect to the Garden of Eden, it would have had to have originated at the Missouri River. So. So maybe the Missouri river is kind of famed or reputable in the fact that this is where a lot of that flooding that took place in Noah's time. Just something interesting. I don't know. [00:26:04] Speaker A: Cool. [00:26:04] Speaker B: Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. [00:26:05] Speaker A: I like it. [00:26:06] Speaker B: All right, that's enough. Pretty sure that's enough water. That's great from here. [00:26:10] Speaker A: Some really cool. Some really cool insight in a lot of that stuff. I'm serious that I'm actually going to use some of this at a baptism speech if I'm so required. And everybody there is just going to be staring at me blankly, wondering why I'm doing what I'm doing. [00:26:24] Speaker B: Well, and that's one thing I Even glossed over when we talk about all the destruction from floods, we didn't even touch on the destruction from contaminated drinking water. I mean, over 3 million people a year from not having clean water. [00:26:37] Speaker A: That's still such a massive, massive issue. [00:26:40] Speaker B: But yeah, it is. And I think the world's changed to improve quality for a lot of this. But it is interesting. Anyways, let's take a look at doctrine covenants, section 63. That is this week's come Follow Me discussion. And they talk about. The first part of this section really dives into signs. And he's talking about. The Lord is saying that he's not very pleased with people that are looking for or asking for signs. And you have to wonder a little bit about signs. Like, where do we see signs in the past? When is it okay? When is it not okay? Do you ever ask for a sign? Because we have. Who was it? Hezekiah. The prophet? Not the prophet, the king. But the prophet came to him and said, this is what's going to happen now. Ask for a sign. And the king says, I'm not going to tempt God. I don't want to ask for a sign. And then the prophet chastises him for being wicked. Like God's telling you look for a sign and you're not asking for it, so I'm going to give you a sign anyways. And it tells him, this is what's going to happen. This is what you look for. So there are cases where the Lord's throwing signs out. I think of the example of Gideon, Gideon and the Fleece. So at this time, Gideon is going to be a hero of Israel. And they've got to go to war with their neighbors that have been oppressing Israel. And this is before the time of the kings. They don't have a good leader. Gideon's the one that they're going to kind of solidify around. And they're asking him to lead the armies and to go fight their enemies. And before he does, he takes this wool, this fleece, and he says, okay, God, I am going to leave this out here. And if it soaks up all of the water, but the ground is dry, then I'm going to count that as a miracle because the ground's dry, but the fleece is wet. So he sets it out there. Next morning, sure enough, the fleece is soaking wet, but the ground is dry. He wrings it out and fills up a bowl full of water, and he says, okay. But then he probably sees a potential mistake or flaw in his thinking. Because you've seen all those shamwow commercials or whatever the case may be. What is a characteristic that fleece has? If it's not super absorbent, it absorbs moisture really well. So if there's a lot of dew on the ground, the fleece is going to be pulling all that moisture up and it's going to be wet and leaving everything else dry around it. So maybe it was a natural deal and maybe not a miracle at all. So he says, God, please don't be angry with me, but I'm going to do this again. And if this time the ground is wet but the fleece is dry, then I'll know it's you and not just whatever I was thinking, then I'll know it really is a sign from you. And then, sure enough, God does it. So he says, okay, I am on it. And he goes and he leads the armies and he conquers, and he is victorious because God is on his side. We also have the instances of Moses when he runs up with Pharaoh and has this war of the signs, if you will. And he keeps performing all of these miracles and ultimately the 10 plagues, casting his staff down, turning it into a snake. [00:29:51] Speaker A: Snakes, dude. [00:29:53] Speaker B: Snakes. [00:29:54] Speaker A: This is my favorite part of this is my favorite part, is when Yul Brenner is just like, it doesn't matter. My magicians can do this, too. [00:30:00] Speaker B: Yep. [00:30:01] Speaker A: And then his snake eats those snakes. [00:30:03] Speaker B: He says, my sign's even better than your sign. [00:30:05] Speaker A: My sign's cooler than your signs. It'll eat your snakes. [00:30:08] Speaker B: And even we have Elijah in the altar, right. Where you've got the people, the priests of baal, that all worship baal. And Elijah is just ridiculing everybody. He says, here, I'll show you a sign that my God is God. What we'll do is I'll make an altar, and you'll make an altar. And if your God lights your altar on fire, then we can know that your God's ball is correct. And if my God lights my altar on fire, then we'll know that my God is correct. It's not just that. You kind of see some personality on this, because Elijah is like, you know what? This is too easy. Dump some water on this thing. And he keeps having him dump all sorts of water and do everything to make this difficult. And then when they're trying to get their God to light the fire for their altar, he even takes it a step further and says, hey, maybe your God stepped out to go to the bathroom. [00:31:04] Speaker A: No way. [00:31:04] Speaker B: Yeah, he does. [00:31:05] Speaker A: Oh, man. Dude, the dude was spitting bars. Okay, keep going. [00:31:09] Speaker B: And he's like, maybe you should speak a little louder, make sure he can hear you. Just whatever the case may be. I mean, he ridiculed him, and then he made his altar all super impossible. And then God did the sign for him anyways. So here we have all sorts of instances from the Bible. God does signs. Why does he do signs? When is it appropriate to ask for signs? And what do we take from that? Let's just pull one of these verses out right here. I think this gives us a little bit of context to the conversation. It says, for I, the Lord, am not well pleased with those among you who have sought after signs and wonders for faith and not for the good of man, unto my glory. I think that is an important distinction. When you look at these people that have seen signs, what was the purpose for their sign? Was it to convince them of what they were to believe or not believe? Because Elijah already knew that God was God. He did not need proof. Moses already knew. He wasn't asking for a sign to convince him. And even if we look at Gideon, he didn't know if God was going to redeem the people in war. He didn't know if the people were righteous, if God was on their side. But he knew that God was God. It's not that he wanted to say God, Is there a God? If there is a God, then I will believe in you. Here's. Just show me this sign. So I think that's what the Lord s saying here. I am not well pleased with those among you who have sought after signs and wonders for faith. So when is a sign appropriate? He says, for the good of men, unto my glory. So go back to Moses. What was the purpose of the signs, the good of men? To establish. [00:32:56] Speaker A: It was to show Pharaoh that, like, this is for real. You got to let us do our thing. [00:33:02] Speaker B: Yeah. And did Pharaoh get converted and join the Lord? Was this a deal to be able to convert Pharaoh, to have faith? [00:33:10] Speaker A: No. [00:33:11] Speaker B: No, no, no. And maybe that's why the scripture keeps saying the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart. It's not that the signs were there for the purpose of converting Pharaoh to believe in the Lord. It was there for the Lord to deliver his people out of. [00:33:26] Speaker A: When Egypt, when Nephi zapped his brothers. What was the. What was the. What did Nephi say? Wasn't it just to say, Just so that you know that what I'm saying is true and that God's got my back. Check this out. Do you remember? I can't remember what it was that he said when he zapped him? [00:33:45] Speaker B: He said something about them withering, right? [00:33:50] Speaker A: Because I even think he said something like, I think he. I think he even said something like, I'm not going to give you a sign just because you want. And then he's like, well, actually, you know what? I am, because God just told me to zap you guys just so that you know that he's real. I think it was something like that. I might be totally misremembering this. [00:34:06] Speaker B: Let's see if I can pull it up real quick. And 17 is where he's commanded to build a boat. [00:34:14] Speaker A: And so I think it goes right along with what you're saying where I think that Nephi even hesitated to do it. But again, I could totally be remembering this wrong. [00:34:23] Speaker B: Well, and that's the other part of it too, right? [00:34:25] Speaker A: Is like, he wasn't doing it. He wasn't doing it to show off himself. Right. Like, he wasn't doing. And he wasn't. He definitely wasn't doing it to try to convert him as much as he was doing it to say, you're going to help me do what I've asked you to do, and here's. Here's how I'm going to prove it to you. [00:34:41] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's for the Lord to save his people, right? [00:34:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:44] Speaker B: What would happen if he doesn't get to build the boat? [00:34:46] Speaker A: And they're doing it. Yeah. [00:34:48] Speaker B: They don't get to the promised land. The Lord is doing this to save his people. But he also tells us in verse 10, yea, signs come by faith. So again, going back to what Moroni says in ether 12, signs don't come to faith, but they come after faith dispute, not because, you see, not for you receive no witness until after the trial of your faith. Right? [00:35:12] Speaker A: Yes. [00:35:13] Speaker B: And he says, signs come by faith, not by the will of men, nor as they please, but by the will of God. So, like, you're right, Nephi, if he wanted to. I don't know how many times you think Nephi wanted to reach out and say, here's. Here's your sign. But it's not his will. It was God's will. That, like you said, I totally misremembering the story, though. [00:35:37] Speaker A: What does it say there? Oh, did you find it? [00:35:40] Speaker B: Let's see. [00:35:41] Speaker A: I swear, man, I should have just looked it up myself. I should just leave it alone because I'm probably wrong. I'm just, like, pushing this thing really hard, and I'm totally going to be. [00:35:49] Speaker B: No, I think I found it. Let's see. Verse 48 from 1 Nephi 17. And now it came to pass that when I had spoken these words, they were angry with me and they were desirous to throw me into the depths of the sea. And as they came forth to lay their hands upon me, I spake unto them, saying, in the name of the Almighty God, I command you that you touch me not. For I am filled with the power of God even unto the consuming of my flesh. And whoso shall lay his hands upon me shall wither even as a dry weed. And he shall be as not for the power of God, for God shall smite him. [00:36:21] Speaker A: And then they didn't touch him. [00:36:23] Speaker B: Yeah. And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto them that they should murmur no more against their father, neither should they withhold their labor from me, for God had commanded me that I should build a ship. And let's see, I want to get. [00:36:35] Speaker A: To this part where he's like, oh, and by the way, check this out. [00:36:38] Speaker B: Verse 52. And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said many things unto my brethren insomuch that they were confounded and could not contend against me. Neither durst they lay their hands upon me, neither touched me with their fingers. They did not touch him even for many days. Now they durst not do this thing, lest they should wither before me. So powerful was the Spirit of God, and thus it had wrought upon them. So first off, they believed. I mean, they demonstrated their faith by not touching him for many days when they were about to throw him into the sea. This was not to convince them, they believed. [00:37:14] Speaker A: Okay. [00:37:15] Speaker B: And it came to pass that the Lord said unto me, stretch forth thy hand. I knew it. Again unto thy brethren, and they shall not wither before thee, but I will shock them, saith the Lord, and this will I do that they may know that I am the Lord their God. There you go. And was Nephi scooting his feet on a camel skin rug before when the God said, stretch forth thy hand. But in any case, this sign was not to convince them to have faith. They believed for the space of many days. They didn't touch him because they already believed. But it was a sign that God showed to demonstrate and to help further his purpose. [00:37:57] Speaker A: Love it. [00:37:58] Speaker B: Okay. And Laman and Lemuel had many signs, right? This is an example. We shouldn't be using signs just for faith. Obviously, that's not the purpose of these. And I'm glad we hit that. Now, there's one other aspect to these signs that I don't think we've covered. I mean, we've talked about them being from the Lord, not from us. He doesn't do it just because of our desires. He only does it based on what he's going to do. And he also doesn't do it to grant faith. He does it for the purpose of furthering his work, showing his glory, showing his power, or redeeming his people. But he says, there were among you adulterers and adulteresses, some of whom have turned away from you. Why does he mix in a story here about signs? Why does he start talking about adulterers and adulteresses when he's talking about signs among the people? And this brings up perhaps my favorite, or one of my favorite favorite stories of Joseph Smith. He was in a crowd teaching people, and a guy kept interrupting him and kept yelling out, we want a sign. Show me a sign that you're a prophet of God. And he kept interrupting him over and over again. And so finally, the prophet Joseph stopped his speech, looked at the guy and said, do you want a sign? And he said, yes, I want a sign. He says, okay, you're an adulterer because a wicked and adulterous nation asks for a sign. And the guy standing next to him in the crowd said, it's true. I saw him last night. And the guy got called out on the spot and embarrassed there. Well, I don't know if his wife was there or not, but it's just kind of a crazy story. [00:39:50] Speaker A: And so that's dope. [00:39:53] Speaker B: And there's something interesting about that relationship as the Lord talks about Israel being his wife and his spouse and Apostasy being this adulterous spouse that is no longer loyal to him. There's something tying in there. If we have to have a sign in order to believe rather than believe first, then our loyalty is not necessarily tied to the Lord. Maybe our loyalty is tied to something else. And the only way that we're going to leave that something else is if the Lord was to show us something great enough that we feel it's worth leaving that something else to worship the Lord. [00:40:29] Speaker A: I think I kind of just want to add in here, too. It's that I feel like it's easy to start dismissing signs and miracles that we have seen. Right. Like a lot of people, I feel like that are in different places with their faith and some maybe moving further away from. From their testimony than closer to it. And so many times in those conversations, a lot of it has to do with yeah, well, I. I always thought that that was a thing, but I've. I've been able to kind of, like, find a way to, like, justify it. Right? And so when you go show me a sign or show me a miracle before, I'll have faith. It's. It's. It's not something that I feel like holds. Right. And I think that the idea. I think the idea is just trying to build a house, right? Like, if it doesn't have a foundation, it doesn't matter how. How great the paint job looks, right? It doesn't matter how beautiful it looks. If it's. If it's not well built, it's not well built. Right? And. And like, I say this all the time, and a lot of the conversations that I have with people, and especially, you know, things relating to spiritual things, is that you. There are. There's really only one way for me personally that I can, like, go forward with information that I've been given, and that's to, like, have it pass the. How does that react in my gut check, right? How does that react? How does my soul. How does my body. How does my. How does my common sense. How do you know, how do all of those things internally react to information that I've been given or to what I'm reading or to what I'm seeing? Right? Because you can eventually write off and justify things that you see with your eyes. Well, maybe I've. Maybe I saw that different or. Well, maybe that wasn't exactly. Maybe I saw it as a miracle, but now I can look back and maybe it wasn't actually as, like, miraculous as I thought. Right? But the only things that, for me, I truly can say, like, hey, I don't say I know a lot of things, but as much as I guess a person could know something, those things all came to me not by what my eyes saw, but by what I felt inside. Right? And I think that that's kind of the. The applicable boots to the ground, at least. You know, application for me is. Is that it won't do you any good to see signs if you're. If you haven't learned how to understand things internally first. If you haven't learned how God has told us, he will confirm things to us. If you haven't learned how to go through that process, it almost doesn't matter what you see or hear or read or whatever, because you can find a way to dismiss those things, even if they were super profound. [00:43:17] Speaker B: Well, and I think to your point, when you're approaching this from a Moment, you're approaching this from a position of incredulity, right? You don't believe. And you said it's easy to kind of forget or dismiss these signs after time. Or, you know, maybe it sticks out to you for a moment, but it kind of fades and you start to wonder and justify it away. Maybe that was just a coincidence or maybe that was because of something else that happened. Maybe it wasn't really what it was. And as you start, I think it's because, like you said, it's the foundation. If you're painting house with no foundation, what is the foundation of that built on? Because if the foundation was built on doubt, give me a sign. Because I'm not sure I believe. [00:44:08] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. That's even a better point. Keep going. [00:44:11] Speaker B: Yeah, because you. You've built it on doubt. And so down the road, it's easy to doubt what you saw because you weren't even sure in the first place. [00:44:20] Speaker A: You gave yourself an out before you even had a chance to, like, show some courage in putting faith into something. Yes, fantastic point, Fantastic point. And I guess I'm just. It's like every time we go over this, this is where I kind of always come back to is that idea of, show me a sign. I'm like, cool, what would you do with it? Right? Like, what would you do with it? Like, because you can have miracles. You can see signs, in my opinion. Go read the words of God and pray about it, and pray and ask for a sign, right? Ask for. Ask for a miracle to happen. Ask for a change of heart. Ask for a confirmation from God, right? It's like, that's. That's. That's as about. As amazing of a miracle as you can have. But that one's almost, like, too easy, right? That one's almost just like, well, no, I want something that's, like, crazy and dramatic. And it's like, I don't know, like, having your heart changed from, you know, somebody in doubt to somebody that believes that, you know, that there is life after this, that you have a family, you know, after this life, that your sins can be forgiven. I'm like, man, that seems like a pretty great miracle. That seems pretty massive. But I guess, you know, I guess I could, I don't know, change water into wine, I guess, you know, but if, like you said, if what you're. If you're already building this on doubt anyways, even that wouldn't change your mind. [00:45:49] Speaker B: Well. And what greater sign, when you look at 2000 years before Christ even comes and you have this event of the Passover that is accurately prophesying the way in which the Messiah will die to the detail of the vinegar being served up to him while he's on the cross to the very hour he's going to die. And you might look at that and say, yeah, well, that comes from the Bible, right? And the Bible was all published after Christ in the New Testament. You're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is a Jewish tradition from a people that to this day still do not accept Christ as the Messiah. What greater sign do you need than a culture that does not accept him, yet has this tradition testifying? Because if they accepted him, then it would be easy to say, oh, they just rewrite. They rewrote their past so that it would match, right? But now you have this culture that doesn't even accept or believe that this is the Messiah, yet their tradition testifies to it almost as a testimony, saying, we did not doctor this. We do not even believe this. What greater sign can you have than the Old Testament prophesying of all these things thousands of years before they happen and them being fulfilled? If that sign is not enough to convince you, like you say, if you have doubt going in, that is your foundation. You are going to be always doubting. It is never enough. I do not know that I can believe this. Believe first, build that foundation, get that testimony, and then signs will follow. Because now it's not a question of doubt or not, it's your sure foundation. [00:47:26] Speaker A: And that doesn't mean that. And I like what you're saying too, is that establish the foundation first and by the way, establish it on the things that we are told that we're supposed to establish at first. Jesus lived, Jesus suffered and died for us. We can repent of those things. Let's just start there, right? Like, start there and start building from there. Because the thing is, is that, is that it's. It's an amazing thing to be able to continually ask questions. And I don't even, I try not to even call it doubt as much anymore because, Because I don't think that that fairly describes, at least for me, what, what I am trying to do. And that doesn't mean that there, sometimes, you know, you read something, you're just like, oh man, like that. That's kind of jarring. But like, my, my. I seek to then discover and understand those things just with a different perspective. It's not to try to disprove or prove really anything as much as it's to go like, hey, like these two or three things that I feel like I'm pretty rock solid on because I've spent 40 years of my life trying to. You know what I mean? Trying to put these through the ultimate tests over and over and over, that I can always kind of come back to those things and then go, okay, cool. Where is the rub with this other thing? What don't I understand about this other thing? Instead of going, well, cool, I just believe everything. And so that anytime anything gets questioned that, like, I can't find an answer for, like, okay, I just have to blow the whole thing up. I'm just like, oh, man. Like, I think it's so healthy to seek and, and, and find answers to your questions, even the ones that are hard. Even. You know what I mean? Even some of the things that you might not understand. Like, dude, the history of the church is. Is definitely not like the most rosy thing that you're kind of almost led to believe sometimes as a child. You know what I mean? It's like that's, it's, it's. It's not. It's very complicated. [00:49:26] Speaker B: Like, it's not simple and I think intentionally so. [00:49:30] Speaker A: I totally agree. And that's. I'm not, I'm not judging it as good or as bad. I'm just saying sometimes. Sometimes I think that we like to believe that, you know, from Joseph Smith's vision onto here, that it was super easy. It's like, man, why doesn't everybody just believe this? This is the most. This is the most. This is a cakewalk, right? And it doesn't take too long to kind of go back through things and start going like, okay, this is not a cakewalk, right? Like, okay, cool. Like, I'm going to have to. I'm going to have to have my. My faith challenged. Awesome. I'm going to have to. I'm going to have to actually exercise muscles of faith. I'm going to actually have to figure out how to. To communicate with God and resolve things that, that. That are. That are weird rubs for me, right? And I guess I'm all. I'm lead. All I'm trying to say is that, is that you don't stand a chance of having any of those resolved if you're coming into it with like, well, I don't believe any of this. And so I'm gonna need it all. Like, I'm gonna need a miracle to prove to me that any of this is true. It's just like, oh, cool. Like, you're just going about this the wrong way completely. Right? And and, and like you said, it's just, I. I just don't know. I just don't know how anybody could ever want to know or believe anything if every single thing is approached with, well, I don't believe any of this. And it's going to need some pretty dramatic miracle for me to believe any of this. And it's just like, well, that's just not the way that faith works. That's not the way that learning works of anything. That's, you know, that's just not the way that understanding works. [00:51:11] Speaker B: Yeah. To be clear, I don't think having faith means you don't have questions. In fact, the opposite. I think if you have faith, that's where your questions begin. Because you do believe, you have a hard time understanding a lot of these things or because you do believe, you want to know better what the Lord is even talking about. And some of the things that happen, like you say in church history or in the scriptures, confuse the heck out of us. Go back to Missouri. As we talked about in a few episodes ago, the Lord says, this is going to be your place of tribulation. I think, okay, look at Lehi's vision and you see the tree of life and you see the path, and you see the iron rod. When do the mists of darkness come? It's after they are on the path. It's after they have their hands on the rod that the mists of darkness really kind of come in. And it's because you have faith. It's because you believe that now you have questions. I think those questions are almost a result of the faith because you are going to be tried. You are going to have to wonder. There is nothing wrong with having questions. It is healthy. It is an important part of our progression. It is part of that tribulation that we have to struggle with this. Who was the greatest, the most difficult thing that Abraham ever had to do? Sacrificing his son? Who is the one that asked him to do it? It wasn't the devil, it was God. And Jacob didn't fight with Satan, it was the Lord. The Lord I think, is intentionally ambiguous at times. You look at the Godhead and the whole message of the Godhead. This is supposed to be the center core, most important thing. To have an understanding of God and faith in God, we need to understand his nature and look how ambiguous it is. Maybe because we have faith, we care enough to wonder and have questions and want to know. And that drives us to. We don't have signs to believe. We believe first. There's got to be a God. But then we use that faith to help us understand. I don't know. [00:53:25] Speaker A: I think you're saying it very articulately, very succinct. [00:53:30] Speaker B: And if you struggle with this, if you are looking for help on this, one of the best books I have seen is the lectures on faith. When they talk about what faith is and this idea that we wouldn't turn on the light switch if we didn't believe that a light bulb would turn on somewhere else and illuminate the room. Our faith that that's going to work drives the action that we actually push it, and we push it and then we no longer have faith. We just know that that's what's going to happen. And this idea, I mean, a very simple deal. We believe that if I pray and ask God, he is going to answer my question. There is a reason why this is what is pushed out to investigators and the basic and taught over and over and over again. There is this idea, if you have faith to the point of action, that you act on it, that you will no longer believe. You will know when you pray and you receive that answer. And you know that God is. Is true. When you have that faith and you're no longer looking for signs to justify why you believe in God, but you believe that there's a God, that faith will help you answer all of the other questions that follow and almost look at it like a space shuttle if you're out on a spacewalk. What good would it be to be on a spacewalk if you didn't have some sort of tether? And answer that first question first. Is there a God? Is this. And once you have that, use that as your anchor. Use that as your tether to explore all of the other doubts and questions that you have that you can always at least fall back on that. And it keeps you grounded as you explore. [00:55:10] Speaker A: Amen. Totally agree. [00:55:12] Speaker B: Okay, sorry, I spent way too much time hashing over that. But let's just go over a few quick points at the end and we'll wrap this episode up. It says, but unto him that keepeth my commandments, I will give the mysteries of my kingdom, and the same shall be in him. A well of living water springing up unto everlasting life. We talked about this living water before, this idea of it being good versus bad. But if you are looking for inspiration, if you are looking for understanding, if you are looking for help with your questions, maybe the very first place you should start is, but unto him that keepeth My commandments I will give the mysteries. Be obedient, follow the thing. If you know that there is a God, you know this is what he wants you to do. Be obedient to what you know he's asking of you, be obedient. Be true to yourself, to your conscience, to what you feel you should be doing. And then you can expect the in the revelations to help you answer the questions that you have as you continue to explore. And then it says, and now behold, this is the will of the Lord your God concerning his saints, that they should assemble themselves together unto the land of Zion, not in haste, lest there should be confusion which bringeth pestilence. And this is a good point. You look at the Civil War and how pestilence killed more people than all other sources. Cannons, gunfires combined. Some of that was just because they put a latrine above their water source. Yeah. When you're doing things in haste, you screw up, right? [00:56:46] Speaker A: I was done. It's not always done the right way. [00:56:48] Speaker B: Sometimes you just got to slow down and do it the right way. Word. And then this is the last point I want to end on. Wherefore let all men beware how they take my name in their lips. And any. This idea, right? The name of the Lord, let's not take it in vain. But he takes it one step further. For behold, verily I say that many there be who are under this condemnation, like, oh, there can't be that many people that use the name of the Lord in vain, Right? He says, who use the name of the Lord and use it in vain, having not authority. And I thought, oh, that's interesting. Having not authority. What does that mean? And I think the example of who was it? Was it, let's see, Oliver Cowdery, who corrects Joseph Smith and says, hey, you need to change this revelation, because the Lord did not say that this is what in the name of the Lord you're going to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. [00:57:47] Speaker A: It's not your place, dog. [00:57:49] Speaker B: Yeah, it's not so much saying God in an inappropriate setting as much as sometimes speaking in the name of the Lord when you weren't asked to do that. When you start counseling people and saying, hey, the Lord wants you, or the Lord's telling you that you need to do this. Were you authorized to do that? Are you authorized to be speaking on his behalf and saying that for that, for that person? [00:58:09] Speaker A: I. I hesitate to jump in here with this, but I actually have some thoughts on this too, about things that I think that we in Our religious community have problems with, with this. Here we go, where's the button? Here we go, where's my button? Here we go. I, I worry that sometimes as part of the culture we say things a lot like how do you think, how do you think God feels when you as this six year old child, I don't know, punch your sister, you know, whatever it is, I don't know. Your 8 year old in my case directly lies straight to your face. You're teaching a primary class and one of the kids is monkeying around. I can't tell you how many times I've heard, how do you think Jesus feels when you do that? And every single time I want to raise my hand and be like, I think he loves you so much that he probably doesn't care. [00:59:22] Speaker B: You know what I mean? [00:59:23] Speaker A: You mean you, you 8 year old child who is still learning what to do and what not to do? Yeah, I think Jesus just loves you and would bless you and would probably tell the person saying that to you, hey buddy, you should probably chill out trying to tell this 8 year old child who I am trying to tell you to be like, I would be very careful adult. How you, how you're trying to correct this child in using my name and referencing me and telling that child, well, you should, you should think about your behavior because I'm going to tell you what I think Jesus would think about you. I am so appalled by that that I can't hear because the thing is, is this is, it's, it's manipulative behavior, man. It's manipulative correcting. Because what we really want to be saying to that child is as your parent, I will not allow you to lie to me without being punished. Because that's what we're really trying to say, right? We're really trying to say as, as a steward over you, I am going to try to help discipline you in a way that you understand that lying is the wrong thing to do. You can for sure say, cool, we've been commanded, thou shalt not bear false witness. I don't know. But even then I feel it's fairly unnecessary because it literally needs to be as simple as I don't like you doing that. And so when we say I think that Jesus, I think that Jesus would be really upset with what you're doing right now or how do you think Jesus, Jesus feels about what you're doing right now? I can just, I literally just in my mind seeing Jesus up there waving his arms, going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't need anybody telling this awesome, beautiful child who's just learning what, what. I don't want to give them the wrong impression of how I feel towards them, which is love, love, love. You're a kid, you'll figure it out. Love, love, love. Parents, peoples, teachers, countrymen's, Romans, lend me your ear. Please don't speak for God when you're talking to these awesome kids who are being kids and probably blowing it. Don't blow it also. And again, I'm speaking for me. I'm speaking for everybody. I'm not trying to preach here, but I kind of am. Please can we get rid of that in our religious communities lexicon. Please, I'm asking, please can we get rid of. How do you think that made Jesus feel? Please, please, can we get rid of that? Jason, am I wrong here? You can tell me if I'm wrong. [01:02:23] Speaker B: I would branch off of that with one story I had from a friend of mine in elementary school. But I would say, I see where you're coming from, and I think you're right. That's what the Lord's talking about. Speaking in my name without authority. Did I tell you to say that? [01:02:38] Speaker A: That's my point. [01:02:39] Speaker B: And I think asking the question, how would Jesus feel? Is fair if you're allowing them to then come up with their idea of how he would feel, because they're the best judge of that. But if you're telling him how he should feel. [01:02:52] Speaker A: It's a leading question, though. And the thing is, it's. [01:02:58] Speaker B: You're implying that Jesus would feel a. [01:02:59] Speaker A: Certain way in a situation where you're disciplining a child and they know they're in trouble, and then you invoke the name of Jesus to discipline them instead of as a parent, I love you and I am trying to help you choose the right thing to do. Let me help teach you. Let me help. Let me, the person in front of you, help guide you. Because I can speak for me. I can tell you how it makes me feel as your parent when you lie straight to my freaking face. Like, I can tell you how that makes me feel. And therefore, let's base our. Let's base the discipline off of that. Even if you're trying to do everything you can to do it in the way that Jesus would do it. I just. In so many situations where it's being implied you're in trouble and Jesus is upset with you. [01:03:46] Speaker B: Yes. And you're right. And if you were to approach this not from a point of view that I have already made up my mind that what you did is absolutely wrong. But if you were to just simply say, okay, tell me real quick, how do you think Jesus would feel in the situation? And then you say, okay, if you think he's great, then great. If not, not, but. Not putting any kind of flavor or. [01:04:09] Speaker A: Spin on that, but can we do it without putting any. I know what you're saying. And again, like, I. I think that in the right setting, I think that in certain settings that. That probably would work better than others. But nobody says it other than in situations where there's clearly an implied. Here's what I think that Jesus would think that you should think as well. [01:04:30] Speaker B: Or if you say, or maybe, maybe if you change it and say, look, if you acted the way that you feel Christ would have you act, if you're truly trying to follow him, then I've got you back. I support you 100%, whatever you did. But, but, but you're right. Like, in a case where clearly, I mean, you're trying to discipline, maybe, maybe there's a better approach. [01:04:51] Speaker A: I'm saying, when have you not heard it in either a disciplinary thing or you've just done something really good? And I'm sure. And I know Jesus is really happy with you too. I'm just like. It just feels a little. [01:05:03] Speaker B: I think I agree with you. [01:05:04] Speaker A: To me, I'm just saying, like, I just think that. I think that this is one of those things where I have a feeling that God would be 100% cool with us going, hey, child of mine, I am so proud of you, and I'm really happy with you and I really appreciate you doing those, those good things. How do you feel inside? Does it make you feel good? Like, they, they're smart enough to draw that conclusion. [01:05:28] Speaker B: That's the better way. [01:05:28] Speaker A: But that's what I'm saying is they. [01:05:29] Speaker B: How do you feel? [01:05:30] Speaker A: That's my point is you're not saying, you're not saying, how do you think Jesus feels about this? You just ask them, like, hey, how does this make you feel? Because, dude, at the end of the day, they're going to say either like, meh. Or they're like, yeah, I actually feel really good inside. And the thing is, even then, I don't even think that it's necessary for us to be like, okay, that's Jesus. That's Jesus. Instead you just go, remember that. Remember how you feel when you do these good things. Because I can promise you that the more you do good things, the better you're going to feel inside. I can promise you that. Because it's the same for me. I can promise that when you do knucklehead stuff, you're not gonna feel awesome inside. And you don't have to say, and that's because Jesus is mad with you. I'm just saying, man. [01:06:12] Speaker B: I agree. I agree. I think it's a great point. [01:06:14] Speaker A: Look, if anybody's listening to this and it's just totally email, we have the email. [01:06:19] Speaker B: Hi. [01:06:20] Speaker A: Hi. @weeklydeepdive.com we're here. We'll listen. If we're totally wrong on this, please let me know. It's. I only bring it up. I only bring it up because I think that the more we try to be better about just our lexicon, the more that we just try to be better about the things that we've heard so many times. So we think that we're supposed to just say those things. I think that sometimes we say those things without even thinking about it. And the only reason I bring that up is because you brought up that scripture. [01:06:50] Speaker B: It's a great point. [01:06:51] Speaker A: I'm just going, even simple things like that, we should just be very, very, very, very careful about speaking for God when it's clearly in a lot of these cases, not our place to do so. That's all. [01:07:06] Speaker B: Well, I think that's amazing how they put it in Doctrine and Covenants, because he says, you're taking my name in vain. You're like, when have I ever used the name of the Lord in vain? And he says, using it without authority. [01:07:15] Speaker A: I mean, that's about as in vain as it gets. Using it without authority and speaking for. [01:07:20] Speaker B: Him when we don't have that right to speak for him. And I think a lot of times we're eager to do that, as we've seen in cases. And it's good to have a little reflection and see, am I actually taking it in vain when I don't actually use his name all the time? But am I speaking out of turn? The story. You reminded me of this kid in elementary school. A teacher asked him, what would Jesus do? And he said, probably zap him. [01:07:46] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh, that's amazing. [01:07:48] Speaker B: And you know, he's not wrong. When you talk about Christ being the same God as the Old Testament, then you say, what would Jesus do? Do you understand all the extenuating circumstances? Because there are times when steadying the ark. And that was enough. I mean, what is the case? And by putting us in the shoes as if we pretend to know what God is Thinking and what God is doing is to say that we are God is to say we know all of the different things. What emotions is that kid dealing with? What did he decide to do instead of. And how did he use restraint or what level of understanding does he have? [01:08:25] Speaker A: Well, it's funny, that actually reminded me. This is back during George W's years. I was, I'm sure, having a conversation about, like, the morality of war with a friend of mine. And, you know, I don't think I came out on it as black and white as I wouldn't now today, maybe as I did back then. But it was so funny. He's just like, as a religious person, like, what do you think? Like, you think. You think that God would condone war? And I literally went, have you ever read the Old Testament? Like, I. I mean, I understand you're not a religious person, and I know you're trying. I know you think you're zinging me on this. I know you're thinking of zinging me. Like, you're a religious person and you think war's okay. Well, that seems like a really godlike Christ, like, thing to do. And I literally was like, have you read the Old Testament? And he was like, no. And I'm like, cool. End of conversation. [01:09:18] Speaker B: I don't know. I don't know if you really want. [01:09:20] Speaker A: To have that conversation. Well. Well, it never happened after. After the New Testament, you know, and then he never condoned. I'm like, oh, you could justify it however you want to, but God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. I'm just saying, like, you can't. It's not. And that's not even saying that he would or wouldn't condone war. I'm just saying it's not as black and white as what would Jesus do? It's just like, wow, that's a very complex. That's an actually very complex question. [01:09:44] Speaker B: Could you imagine stepping in on Nephi right after he slays Laban and telling him, what would Jesus do? [01:09:50] Speaker A: What would Jesus do? I mean, he was literally like, I don't know. I didn't want to do this. [01:09:53] Speaker B: He shrunk because he didn't want to do it. He didn't want to do it either. Do it. And you're like, come on, what would Jesus do? Or going to Isaac when he's about to. Or Abraham when he's about to sacrifice his son. Dude, Abraham, what would Jesus do? [01:10:06] Speaker A: What would Jesus do? I don't know. [01:10:08] Speaker B: He actually did sacrifice his son, didn't he? [01:10:10] Speaker A: I was Going to be like, yeah, I think that he told me. Yeah, it's. That's why, again, like, I, to your. [01:10:15] Speaker B: Credit, I, I see where you're coming from And I agree 100%. Let's. [01:10:19] Speaker A: You don't have to agree. [01:10:20] Speaker B: No, I do. It's. [01:10:21] Speaker A: I'm just saying I'm not, I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to strong arm you into agreeing with me. I just, I just know that, I just know that there are sometimes things that, that a lot of my friends. And again, like, because of my work, I am, like, blessed to be around a lot of people on very, very, very different parts of their journeys. Right. Some of which have been very active and now are just completely active to some even completely, like, like angry and anti. Right? And so many times a common theme of like, where I got lost was there was just, there was so much stuff that finally just started feeling a little, a little brainwashy to me or a little like a little zombie ish to me or a little, you know, and things. And then you go, okay, well, that sucks. And I would hope that it doesn't feel like that. Right? But then, but then when you talk specifics, you go, what specifically made this feel? What specifically started. What specifically started rubbing you the wrong way? And it's funny because it's a lot of the same things that I cringe over every time, right? One of those are. Well, everybody was. Instead of just teaching somebody how to be, how to like, fix a mistake, it was always, it was always like, I'm going to invoke God to make you feel ashamed of what you did. I'm not going to tell you how I feel. I'm going to make you think that. I'm just going to tell you. I'm going to use God to manipulate you into feeling shame in his name. And for me, I go, that is so out of bounds for me. Right? And, and that's, and that's, and the fact that, the fact that I, I look at that and I go, man, if I didn't have my foundation in a couple very specific places, that's something that I would be totally like, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's. That is so out of bounds. Right? That is completely out of bounds to use, to use God to, to put our expectations on somebody. And, you know, a lot of things, you know, you have a row of kids getting up and saying the same three things to start every fast testimony meeting. You know, you're just like, hey, can we, can we be better as church Members. That's all I'm asking. Can we be better, can we just do a better job of going, hey, that's awesome that your kid wants to go up there and bear their testimony. Can we help explain to them that you don't have to start a testimony by going, I'd like to bear my testimony and know this church is true. And I know my family loves me, and I know that I love my family. You're like, nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that you have to start a testimony like that, right? Nowhere in the scriptures does. But, but when you have eight kids in a row go up there and say literally verbatim the same thing, you go, hey, did we kind of miss the point of what we're trying to do here in this meeting a little bit? Right? And is this something that we're going, hey, we're. We're missing such an opportunity to, you know, to. To really. To really teach our kids or to teach each other or to learn for ourselves? Like, oh, why is it that we. Why is it that we just say that? I'm not. I guess. Let me question why I start every prayer. Heavenly Father, I'm thankful for this day and thankful for all of my blessings. Like, like, I do mean those things, but sometimes it just becomes meaning behind. But that's what I'm saying is, like, it just sometimes starts becoming so verbatim. Verbatim, you know, ending every blessing with and all other things that Jesus wants you to have, all the other blessings that you, that you stand in need of. It's like, dude, that's the job that you just were given was to give that person a blessing. Don't, don't, don't pass that off. [01:13:56] Speaker B: Don't punt on it. [01:13:56] Speaker A: Like, don't punt on that. Stand in there. And if you need to wait a second to feel something, to know what to say, that's what your job is, dude. Like, get in there, dig in the trenches. And it's okay if you need to take a minute to really try to understand what you're supposed to say in that. I guess this. The only reason I bring this up is because, again, I know that this sometimes sounds, like, preachy, but I'm saying this only because I know, I do know of a lot of people that I've had this specific conversation with that are no longer a part of the church that have said very specifically. It starts becoming just a little scripted. It just starts becoming a little too, wow, is everybody really supposed to say all of those things all the time? Even if they don't know what it means. Like, it's a little weird when you're in fast and testimony meeting and nine kids get up and say the exact same thing and you're kind of just like, was there a testimony in there? Did we miss the point of what this is supposed to be? Because this really just was weird having nine kids go up. I'd like to bear my testimony and they know this church is true. And I know that my family loves me and I know the prophet's the prophet, the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. You're just like, wow, that's. Those are really. I actually agree with those, you know, But I don't know. I don't know. And again, I might be totally off here. It's the only reason I brought it up is because this reminded me of this and it felt like more or less a good time to go, hey, if we can all just. And dude, if we're all. If I'm saying things that are totally wrong again, forgive me. I'm just, I'm trying to figure all of this out too. And at the same time try to figure out how can we, how can we just continue to be better even in how we speak, even in, even in the things that we say? Like how can we continue to, you know, to just to correctly uplift each other by not having it be so, I don't know, scripted, I guess. [01:15:43] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think there's a verse right here at the end that just hits exactly what you were saying. So. Well, it says verse 64. Remember that that which cometh from above is sacred and must be spoken with care and by constraint of the spirit. And I think you're right. It's so easy to fall into patterns, so easy to. Do we say the same prayers all the time? Do we say the same testimony? Or do we teach our kids to do that? Does it start at a young age? But remember, that which is spoken of is sacred. And how do we preserve the sanctity, the sacredness of a testimony? How do we preserve the sacredness of, of having a conversation with God in prayer? How do we get them to think about the words that they're using and not just repeat it off cuff? Because it's the same thing that everybody else says or everybody does. How do we treat that with the sacred nature that it deserves? So I'm glad you brought that up. I'm glad you said it. And you look at missing the mark. I mean, in the Old Testament you got stoned for saying the Name of the Lord out loud, right? You say his name out loud and that's it. My kids were watching a video today in those Old Testament times, like, he had a reputation for being a blasphemer for saying the Lord's name. And I'm like, no, he didn't. If it was in the Old Testament and he had a reputation. No, no, he dies after the first incident. There's no reputation. But what if the commandment of the Lord, don't take my name in vain, isn't about saying his name or not saying his name. It's about how we speak in his name and whether we speak, how we. [01:17:26] Speaker A: Pray in his name, how we bear testimony in his name, because we finish. [01:17:30] Speaker B: It in the name of Jesus. [01:17:32] Speaker A: I think. And this is where. And again, like, I know that it probably felt like I got lost in the weeds, but that was my point, was, is that we're doing all of those things in his name. [01:17:40] Speaker B: Exactly. [01:17:41] Speaker A: That's my point, is if we're doing those things in his name. What you just said is I feel like we just need to be more careful, that's all. Or deliberate. Not careful. We need to just be more deliberate and, you know, aware. That's. That's all. That's all I'm trying to say. I'm sorry if I came across as, like, super ranty in that last section. My point was, is that we are doing all of these things in the name of Jesus Christ. Sometimes it starts feeling a little scripted. And it can be. It can be a little. It just. It's. Sometimes it just. Sometimes I would just. I know, whatever. Maybe we can all, including me, just be a little bit more aware. That's all. [01:18:20] Speaker B: Exactly. And I look at my life and I try not to cuss. There's words that I can count on one hand how many times I've said. And the Lord's name is something I have never said. So as I read these verses and I look at this and it says, don't take the name of the Lord in vain. I'm like, yeah, I've never done that. And it says, wait. By speaking without authority, I'm like. It makes you pause, and it makes you start thinking about it. And I'm. I'm super glad you brought those points up. [01:18:46] Speaker A: And I. And I know we're way past time, but do you want to go even one step further? How about that we've taken upon ourselves the name of Christ and that, like. [01:18:54] Speaker B: Our actions, how we behave. [01:18:55] Speaker A: How we behave. [01:18:57] Speaker B: I'm just saying like it's a can of worms. I don't. [01:18:59] Speaker A: I don't. [01:19:00] Speaker B: You're right. [01:19:00] Speaker A: That's. That's there just for you guys to think about. That's for you to go down your own thought. Thought exercises with is that we've taken upon ourselves the name of Christ, and so even our actions or our behavior is hopefully not taking the Lord of the name in vain as well. [01:19:16] Speaker B: Well, thank goodness. When he calls out the adulterers and adulteresses that are among the congregation, he says to them, repent speedily. Right? Yeah. You may have screwed up, but you look at the poor wonders, you know, Neither do I condemn you. Repent and sin no more. There you go. [01:19:33] Speaker A: That's the hope for me. That's the hope for me. As soon as that popped into my brain, I'm just like, oh, I'm in trouble, man. [01:19:39] Speaker B: We are all in trouble. [01:19:40] Speaker A: I'm in big trouble. Anyways. All right, that was awesome. What do you got for us next week? [01:19:44] Speaker B: Next week, we are talking Doctrine Covenants. What is it, 64 through 66. And trying to remember exactly what they put on this one. If I remember right. Let's see. The Lord requireth the heart and a willing mind. [01:19:59] Speaker A: I love it. Heart and a willing mind. All right, well, until next week. [01:20:02] Speaker B: See ya. [01:20:07] Speaker A: Sam.