D&C 49 - 50 (2020 Repost)

[00:00:16] Speaker A: Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the Add On Education Network. The podcast where we explore the weekly Come follow me discussion and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here with my friend and this show's producer, Nate Pifer. It's good to be back. How you doing, Nate? [00:00:33] Speaker B: I'm pretty much living the dream every day. Every day of my life. [00:00:37] Speaker A: Nice. [00:00:38] Speaker B: How about you? [00:00:39] Speaker A: Oh, fantastic. Just surviving another week. [00:00:43] Speaker B: When is school out? [00:00:45] Speaker A: School's out a year from now. [00:00:47] Speaker B: Whatever, man. [00:00:49] Speaker A: I finished last semester on Monday and the next semester starts on this Monday. [00:00:53] Speaker B: So one week break and then school's out forever. [00:01:01] Speaker A: One can hope. No, it's always good to learn. It's good to keep learning. [00:01:05] Speaker B: I know, but you don't need school for that. [00:01:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:08] Speaker B: Hey, kids, drop out of school. [00:01:10] Speaker A: Don't listen to Nate. [00:01:12] Speaker B: I went to two semesters of college. [00:01:15] Speaker A: School is good. All right, just to get us warmed up and started here, quick shout out to Mark, Harry and Shawnee Cannon. So Mark is from Come Follow Me live on Facebook. He invited Nate and I to his show. Nate unfortunately couldn't be there, but Shawnee interviewed me for their Come Follow Me Live. And you can see that on Facebook on the Come Follow Me Live page. And check out Shani's page. Divine Code on Facebook. It was fun to be on their show. They are great people. It was a fun interview and just good experience overall. So looking at this episode, we are going to dive into Doctrine and covenants, sections 49 and 50 and 49. First is going to talk a little bit about a mission to the Shakers. First off, who are the Shakers? A little bit of insight into them. You see them in early American history. They talk about the Shakers. I think we have all heard this term before, and I was curious about them. And so I looked up the Shakers today because. Well, first, as I was reading about some of the things that they believed. They believed that Jesus Christ already came back. The second coming in the form of a woman. They teach people that you cannot have intercourse at all. No marriage, no sex. And that's what kind of piqued my interest is how can a religious group survive if you can't have kids? It just seems doomed from the start. So when I looked it up, I found in 2017, there were only two shakers left in the world. It did not surprise me. Well, I guess it kind of does. I am surprised that there were still two left. It is interesting. So this was a group, a religious group, and they were Seeking the truth. And the Lord in response, I guess, to them wanting to know, sent the missionaries to go talk to the community. And this is section 49. [00:03:20] Speaker B: Hold on. Can you imagine how great it would be to be a missionary to the Shakers? I spent two years telling people they had to stop having sex. Just saying, like, that's. That's a. That's a. That's a dream job right there for the missionary works like, guess what, guys? This is the first time I'm ever going to get to say this on my mission. But. [00:03:39] Speaker A: But that is. Okay. [00:03:41] Speaker B: That's amazing. Who got to go? Wait, who was it to win on the mission there? Does it say? [00:03:46] Speaker A: Yeah, there was three people, right? And let's see. Sidney Rigdon, I believe Oliver Cowdery. And then Lehman. I can't remember his last name. [00:03:56] Speaker B: This is great. I can't believe. I can't believe these guys got the easiest. That's like the golden contact right there. [00:04:03] Speaker A: You would think, but listen to how this mission starts. I mean, just from the revelation itself. And Lehman is their inside man. Lehman used to be a Shaker himself, and he is a recent convert to the church. And it is part of the reason why Lehman gets chosen for this mission, to try to help build the bridge there. The Lord says they desire to know the truth in part, but not all, for they are not right before me, but must needs repent. So right off the bat, when the Lord says they desire to know the truth, but not all, and they're not right before me and they need to repent, it almost sounds like a doomed mission from the start. Like, hey, these guys want to know the truth, but really they don't want to know all of it. And it just kind of goes. It just kind of goes south from there. In the Revelation, the Lord calls out some specific things that they're saying and doing and says, this is not how it should be done, or this is how it should be done kind of. I mean, just straight up front, here is the Lord telling them what they are seeking to know. And when the missionaries go, really? They just pull out the letter and read it to them. And when they read the letter, they said, you know what? That's interesting, but we are not interested. And they kind of reject it, and that is the end of it. But not only does the mission not go well, but when we look at Leman, this is what the Lord says. He says, you know, last episode, we were talking about spiritual gifts. And I know this sounds like a little bit of a tangent, but it does fit in here. In the last episode, when we were talking about spiritual gifts, we were comparing it to, like Perseus. He is going to go and do these hard things and the Lord gives him or God's give him divine tools or instruments to help him perform his mission. In this case, God is sending Lehman to the Shakers and he gives him a gift, if you will, of counsel and warning before he embarks. And he says, he says, I pick leman, that he may reason with them not according to that which he has received of them, but according to that which shall be taught him by you, my servants. And by so doing, I will bless him. Otherwise he shall not prosper. So the Lord is kind of giving him a clue here or a hint, like, I am sending you on this mission. But here is a word of caution. Don't fall back on what you already understand and use that to teach these people, but instead use what you are going to be learning and base it off of that. Otherwise you will not prosper. And the thing about Lehman is, after this mission, not only did the Shakers not accept the message as a message from God, but Lehman decided to go back to the Shakers and to leave the church. [00:06:53] Speaker B: Lehman? [00:06:54] Speaker A: Yes, Lehman. [00:06:56] Speaker B: Come on, dude. [00:06:58] Speaker A: Not only did he leave the church and go back, but he had given a lot of his property. I don't know if he had sold it or given it to a lot of the saints to build houses and kind of join their society. And when he went back to the Shakers, he went back to the members of the church and said, never mind, I want all of my property back. So I know it sounded like a very good mission to start with. As you say. [00:07:24] Speaker B: Leemon, how did you blow this? You had one job, Lehman. [00:07:29] Speaker A: It did not go. [00:07:30] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh, Lehman. [00:07:31] Speaker A: It did not go so well. [00:07:33] Speaker B: Holy cow. [00:07:34] Speaker A: And so that makes me kind of come back and ask the question, why does the Lord send missionaries on missions that he knows are not going to go well? Right. Because the Lord is telling them from the get go, they do want to know the truth, but honestly, they don't want to know all of the truth. They are not ready. They need to repent. It almost sounds like he's saying they're going to reject the message. And then when he counsels Lehman and says, I'm warning you, fall on these teachings or else it's not going to go well for you. It's almost as if he's got the foresight in the saying, this is how it's going to go. And I'm going to provide you with everything I can to try to sway this the other way. But I'm still going to let this go, knowing that it's not going to happen. Why would he let that happen? Any thoughts, any questions? I don't know. It's kind of an interesting question. You see it today. How many missions in the world are high baptizing missions? You've got a few, right? It seems like Latin America has always been very high in finding converts, but still, the Lord doesn't only send missionaries to Latin America, but he sends missionaries to all sorts of missions where you don't typically baptize maybe more than one person a year. Right. So is it still important to send missionaries knowing full well that the people are not ready? I think there is something to that anyways. [00:09:10] Speaker B: What is it to it? I am interested. What do you think? [00:09:14] Speaker A: I don't know. Well, I think it's like this. And maybe that's just the soccer season in me having sat on the side watching my kids play soccer for the last couple months. But you know, what kind of dad goes. Or you have your son playing, you want to just sit him, see him ride the bench, right? Even if you know he's not going to do terribly well on the field, you still want to give him that chance. And I think by sending him in and giving them that chance, he gets to see where he's at, too, and he gets to realize, you know, where his skill is. Sometimes it's better to go out there and not have it. But at least at the end of the day, you can't blame the coach for you not being able to play. It comes back to you, right? God gives you a chance. You can't come to him and say, well, you never gave me the opportunity. There's no question. At the end of the day, if you go out there and you prove yourself that then you've laid it all out on the table and you know what you're made of, you know, what decisions you made. And you can't blame anyone for those choices or for the way you took that. [00:10:20] Speaker B: I agree with that. And in this case, Lehman was even told right up front, hey, man, hey, Lehman, don't blow this. And he blew it. Whose fault is that at that point? I'm just saying, right. I think even more than anything, that's probably the answer that comes to me is that there is the long game that still has to be played here. And so you asked the question, well, why would we send missionaries to places where we know they're not going to be baptizing very many people. I think we kind of culturally always look at that and go, yeah, everybody has to have a chance or an opportunity to hear and accept things in this life or whatever, whatever that the idea is of that or the prophecy of that. But that's, that would suck if everybody's one chance is like some random passing by of a missionary, that maybe they were having a bad day and the missionary came up to him, was like, oh, hey, can I talk to you? You know what I mean, somewhere in Scandinavia or something. And the person's like, no, I gotta go pick up my kid from school. It would suck even then if that was somebody's one chance. Right, right. So I think, I guess I'm just saying it's like there's such a long term thing though that, that you just never know what steps kind of are, you know, hopefully planting a seed. And even if it's taking a long time to nurture it, the idea would be still, right, that maybe that encounter at least is the beginning of something. [00:11:59] Speaker A: Oh, you're absolutely right. You know, you make me look at this comment. Two different perspectives, right? One, I think first it shifts the question. Like at the end of the day, can somebody say, God, why didn't you care enough about me to send the truth? Why didn't you let me know? Or why didn't you, if this message was so important, at least give me a shot? Or Lord, why didn't you at least trust me to do this mission? You can't ask that question anymore, Right. It shifts the focus to I gave you this opportunity, why didn't you take it? Now the blame is shifting from God to the person. But as you were saying that I think about this, it wouldn't be fair if it's just this one little chance passing in the night. Right. I don't think a God who's willing to give people a shot or willing to give people a chance, or willing to open his mouth even knowing that things might not go the way they should, is just going to hold him accountable to one simple little chance. Like you say, there's more to it than that, but let's keep going because you never know what one of those chances are finally going to soften up or open it up. And maybe how we apply that to us is the question. We all know people that maybe it's a little bit hard or uncomfortable having a conversation with or trying to share our thoughts or feelings or share the gospel with them and maybe we talk ourselves out of it a lot of the times because we think the same thing. Why should I open my mouth if they are going to not accept it anyways? And how does God handle situations like that? He knew full well what was going to happen and he did it anyways. So is that really an excuse? Is that really a reason why we shouldn't be sharing the gospel? Or is that really a reason why we shouldn't be talking to people about it? But then you also have to wonder about that line. When are we crossing the line by harassing somebody, by keeping trying to give them something that they just don't want to have, Right? We don't want to be that person that just keeps annoying them was something that they really did not ask for. And maybe that is key here is these people, as God said, they desire to know the truth. Maybe there has to be a little bit of desire or invitation there. And even if we think maybe they won't, I think maybe the best answer to the question that we have been asking is to look here and say, even if we think they don't want to, that can't be an excuse for not doing it. [00:14:24] Speaker B: I like that. [00:14:25] Speaker A: Because we still have to give that opportunity out there and who knows what's going to happen. If God's willing to roll the dice on them knowing full well, then why shouldn't we be all the more willing when we have no idea what's going to happen? [00:14:40] Speaker B: I think too, just to put a final point on this, maybe some of the things that I would consider some of my greatest, like missionary experiences have been people that 100% were not going to be baptized or anything, right? But that we had such good conversations that, you know, a couple people, specifically one that passed away pretty soon after I had gotten done with my mission. And it was really kind of a cool, like, personal experience. Even after I found out about it, one of the first thoughts that came to my mind was, hey, now he's not going to be so freaked out when he gets to the next side, right? Like even in the next life, those, those really good discussions of him asking me, hey, what do you think happens after we die? And maybe I'm like, well, this is what I think happens. That's like, I don't. I mean, I know everybody wants to say, oh, I know for sure. I'm like, I don't know for sure. But here's what. I have a pretty good vibe about happening in the next life. And we would have these really great conversations. And when he Very suddenly passed away. The comfort that I felt was, oh, okay, this is why we do this. That's, that's, this is the reason that we continue to do missionary work. Like you said to people that we know aren't going to join the church. Ever hear. Is that when I said earlier, like there's a bigger picture involved? I mean like the biggest of big pictures. [00:16:16] Speaker A: Yeah. And that reminds me. What Chaos theory. They say if a paper was published, if a butterfly beats its wings in South America, does it create a hurricane in North America or something like that? Right. Just who knows what kind of impact that's going to have or what kind of discussions or mindset or preparation is going to filter out down the road. Great thoughts. Thank Nate. Thanks, Nate. Ye. All right, here in verse six, let's see, it says, and they have done unto the son of man even as they listed. And he has taken his power on the right hand of his glory and now reigneth in the heavens. And I thought it was interesting. This is something that we've probably read a bunch and we've never really addressed it. This idea of the right hand of God versus the left hand of God. And do we even want to go here? That's. [00:17:06] Speaker B: Man, I still need to create that little bumper of like a little production thing that anytime we're about ready to go somewhere, I can just hit that is God. [00:17:16] Speaker A: What's the term for this? Would this be a right hand racist? Not racist because it's not race. It would be a prejudice. [00:17:26] Speaker B: There you go. I don't know how that has anything to do with racism but prejudice. There you go. [00:17:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Is he prejudiced towards right handed people? The left handed people not have a chance here. Why does he keep saying the right hand of God in such a positive light? And the left hand on the right are the people that are saved and on the left are the people that are damned. What is the deal with right hand, left hand and why is that the case? And maybe we should take this back. Historical context and I don't know if we really even want to go here. [00:17:58] Speaker B: How about you give us the Reader's Digest version? [00:18:01] Speaker A: Okay. Well, even the Reader's Digest is probably somewhere we don't want to go. [00:18:06] Speaker B: I don't know. What's the historical thing of this? What are you going to just like offend everybody or something? [00:18:11] Speaker A: No, it's just kind of. It's just kind of gross. The idea is that back in the day before toilet paper. [00:18:18] Speaker B: Oh yeah. [00:18:19] Speaker A: The left hand was used for cleaning. [00:18:22] Speaker B: Wow. [00:18:22] Speaker A: And because the left hand was used for cleaning. You didn't want to eat with the right hand. That was disgusting. [00:18:27] Speaker B: You didn't want to eat with the left hand. [00:18:29] Speaker A: Right, right, sorry. Thank you. You didn't want to e the left hand. It was unclean, if you will, you would eat with your right hand. So therefore, when you go and you greet people, you never offer them your left hand because that's rude, that's gross, that's crazy. You offer them the clean hand. Right. [00:18:46] Speaker B: All right. [00:18:47] Speaker A: So this idea, this notion that the right hand was used to take food into your body, it was clean, it was pure, and you're putting clean and good things into your body, where the left hand was dealt with the crap that you were pulling away from your body or the leftover, the waste. And so you have this imagery and God is using. [00:19:06] Speaker B: I don't want that imagery. [00:19:08] Speaker A: For what it's worth, at the time that the Bible is written and the people that are here, this notion of the right hand, the left hand is very different from what it means to us. We are a little bit removed from that time period, that setting, that cultural background. And so this idea, I mean this tradition, it is very much ingrained. You see it even in, I do not know what you would say, like the sacrament. This idea, even though it is not written, it is not put anywhere that you only take it with the right hand or you do this with the right hand, you raise the right hand, you swear with the right hand, it comes back. It dates from a time period where things were different than what they are today. So it is not to say left handed people are bad. It is just back then if you were to offer your left hand, it would probably be offensive. People would think take it more as an insult because that was typically associated with not being clean. [00:20:07] Speaker B: I'm glad we went there. That's interesting. [00:20:09] Speaker A: It's kind of interesting. [00:20:10] Speaker B: It's just hopefully that didn't offend anybody. [00:20:14] Speaker A: Not fun to talk about. I don't know. It's just the toiletries of the ancient world. [00:20:20] Speaker B: It's history, man. [00:20:21] Speaker A: It is history. [00:20:22] Speaker B: I've always wondered why that was a thing too. So now I know. [00:20:26] Speaker A: Yeah, and maybe it is not so much a thing today, but I think it does drive a point that the Lord speaks to us in terms that we understand. He uses words that we understand, he uses expressions that we understand. And he speaks to us very much at our level. And some of this has been ingrained in cultures past and maybe having a sense or understanding of where we have Come from helps us better understand some of the language that's transmitted even to today. [00:20:54] Speaker B: Wild. [00:20:55] Speaker A: Next it says, the nations of the earth shall bow down. If not of themselves, they shall come down by power. And it reminds me, he's talking about in the last days, the nations are going to be brought low. And the language, they shall bow down, if not of their own, then they will be bowed down. It just reminds me of the Ten Commandments. And it makes me think, are the Ten Commandments commandments, or are they prophecies? When God says, thou shalt not kill, is he telling us you don't kill, or is he saying you will not kill? Whether it takes you a while to figure that out and you have got the ability to kill removed from you, and now you are living the law, or you chose to obey early on and followed me. And what kind of condition of life you are going to have based on how you took that and what you did with it. In either case, at the end of the day, you will not kill. Just kind of interesting to me. And when he talks about these nations being humbled, he's going to mention it three times in here. This idea that the proud nations are going to be brought down low and the humble nations are going to be exalted. And it goes back to his Sermon on the Mount when he talks about the meek and the humble inheriting the earth. He says, for that which is exalted shall be laid low of power. And then he says, the meek, the humble, shall inherit the earth while the pride fall. And you have this idea of equality and inequality, that the Lord is going to try to equalize what wasn't equal. Okay, there's going to go into your favorite part. Nate, what is it? [00:22:52] Speaker B: Please tell me. It's either begats or gathering. [00:22:54] Speaker A: It has nothing to do with begats. We are avoiding gathering for a moment. [00:23:00] Speaker B: Please tell me it is spiritual gifts, this marriage. [00:23:04] Speaker A: Oh, man, if I could only say it. Never mind. Okay, marriage. And the way he addresses it, he says, and again, I say unto you. And you are like, wait a minute, again. This is the first time you have ever said anything. Well, it is the first time he said it in the section, but he is almost saying, and again, because he is trying to remind them this is not something new. When he says in the very beginning, it is not meet that man be alone. For this reason he has created Eve. And then he also says, for this reason shall man leave his parents and cleave unto his wife that the two shall become one. It is something that he has kind of taught over and over again. And I think he is saying that like. And again, let me just remind you one more time, even though it's the first time he said it in this section. And again, just going to throw this out here. No, whoso forbiddeth to marry is not ordained of God. For marriage is ordained of God unto man. And it's funny because the way Satan tries to make this look bad is this idea that if we are getting married, we're being selfish, we're trying to please ourselves, we're trying to. To please our carnal self, right? But marriage is probably the most selfless thing we can do as humans on this earth, right? Sure. If we're committing and figuring out how to live with another person, to take two different backgrounds, two different mindsets, two different approaches to life and reason with each other and figure out what our new path is going to be going forward. And there's give and there's take and there's compromise. It's the most selfless thing out there. And yet Satan has turned us to this selfish idea. He's really trying to attack the sanctity of marriage and the importance of marriage in our development as people. And the Lord puts it in an interesting perspective because he says that the whole purpose for the earth's creation, wherefore it is lawful that he should have one wife, and they twain shall be one flesh. And all this, that the earth might answer the end of its creation. The earth. The whole purpose for the creation of earth was so that men and women can be married. It is kind of an interesting perspective. And not just earth, everything in the earth. Right? Because he follows this up with, not only does he say anyone that forbids marriage is not ordained of God, but then he says, and anyone that forbiddeth eating meat is not ordained of God, for that was also given for man, for food, for clothing. And the third reason is kind of surprising to me that he might have in abundance. Seems like a weird reason, right? I have given all of the life here on earth for man so that they can eat it, so that they can use it to make clothing and so that they can have abundance. I don't know. God wants us to have abundance. [00:26:18] Speaker B: I mean, could that be symbolic too? Just of like the things on this earth that we used? I mean, especially at the time that this was being written, to harvest, to pay your bills, you know what I mean? To not only eat and to keep you alive, but to barter with and I mean, you know, it's all of the. All of the things that the Earth gives us, precious metals and things like that. You know, I wonder if that. I wonder if that's kind of the big. The big point of this is that the Earth is here to sustain us and to also for us to use to, you know, trade and make money. [00:27:00] Speaker A: That's interesting because you talk about the free market and economy. The idea that drives everything is scarcity. Right. And it's because there's not enough that we've got to figure out what the worth of it is. If there was plenty of it, of a commodity, then nobody would care about it. It wouldn't be worth anything. Right. The value of something is determined by its scarcity. And yet in here, we have something in abundance. And it's an interesting concept for me. It's an interesting idea. And the role of scarcity and competition is what drives progress. The whole reason. I mean, go back to this idea that I want you to repent right now because you don't know when I am going to come. He is telling us that we have scarcity of time because if we had unlimited time to figure it out, then at what point do we need to be concerned? Who cares? We will get there. Whether it takes today a thousand years, a million years. Take your time. You are going to get there. But he's saying, no, no, no, no, no, no. Scarcity. You only have so much time. And because there's scarcity, it drives action. It makes us try to do something. Would we turn our paper in if there was no deadline for the paper? Would you get your grades all finished if the quarter never ended? [00:28:33] Speaker B: I didn't get my grades done even when the quarter didn't. [00:28:37] Speaker A: But you look at, you look at online classes. If you take a class from Udemy or another online platform where you're just taking it at your leisure. [00:28:46] Speaker B: Yeah, I never finished those classes. [00:28:48] Speaker A: That's what I wonder. What's the completion rate of a class where there is no deadline? [00:28:53] Speaker B: Even the ones that I pay money for? Yeah, it's wild. [00:28:56] Speaker A: Yeah. What is the completion rate of the classes that do have a deadline? I bet it's a lot higher because the scarcity, that idea that we have to have it done by a deadline drives progress. Right? [00:29:11] Speaker B: Fair point. I agree. [00:29:14] Speaker A: We look at how we've changed over time for a while. Man's dependency. So right now we're talking about fossil fuels. We depend on fossil fuels for our energy. And there's a huge push to try to push us into renewable energy to get us off of fossil fuels. Look at what fossil fuels has brought into the world. Powered airplanes, powered vehicles, powered our fuel in our homes to keep us warm in the wintertime. What we've done on that. Now take that energy source and rewind back in time. And we were using well blubber to power all of that. What could we have done with well blubber? How many planes could you power with that? How many cars could you power with that? How many homes could you keep warm? There wasn't enough wells, right? There's a scarcity of wells. And that scarcity of wells is what drove us to find a better fuel source. And when we discovered oil now, all of a sudden it pulled us from one dependency to another. And so maybe the scarcity that we see that drives progress isn't that there's a scarcity of resources as much as it's a perceived scarcity. And something that we look at it and we see and it looks like we don't have enough. But because we are not using the full potential of what's here on earth, as soon as we find something better that takes us to that next level that allows us to progress, allows us to change, we find all of a sudden that there was plenty in the first place. [00:30:46] Speaker B: Cool. [00:30:47] Speaker A: All right. But he does temper this. In the very next verse, it's very. He says, but it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another. Wherefore. Or in other words, as we said, for that reason the world lieth in sin. And we saw this last time when we were talking about inequity versus iniquity, this idea that there was this imbalance. Maybe it wasn't last time, it was two times ago, but it's something that just keeps creeping up. It is not given that one man should possess that which is above another. And because man does, the whole world lies in sin. Why is the world in sin? Because there's inequality. It is the second time it's mentioned this section, and it's going to mention it a third time in an even bigger deal. So let's. And he also balances it out in another statement a little bit further on, when he says, woe be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need. So he's given it for us in abundance. He's given it for us to take care of our needs. But if we start wasting life, like he said in doctrine and covenants 42 several times, thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not Kill this idea that life is precious to him, even though he's given it to us, Even though, yes, we are supposed to eat it, we are supposed to use it to clothe ourselves. Yes, we are supposed to protect ourselves. We're supposed to kill in times of need. But if you're doing it and there is no need, that's not a good thing in the Lord's eyes. Okay. [00:32:23] Speaker B: I've been watching the old TV show Kung Fu from 1977. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's one of the main themes, dude. The Shaolin monks, they were like, don't. Life is precious, man. Don't waste it. [00:32:38] Speaker A: It is even. [00:32:39] Speaker B: Even when. Even when sometimes it seems like it would be justified. Just always remember, life is precious. Love it, dude. [00:32:49] Speaker A: I love it. [00:32:50] Speaker B: The common theme between all. All the religion. Well, not all the religions. I don't know. Hopefully all the religions. All I know is that what you just said reminded me of this great TV show I've been watching from 1977. [00:33:06] Speaker A: It's an important theme. Life is very precious. He says also here, towards the end, the Lamanites shall blossom as a rose. And they also said Jacob. And I thought it was interesting that he mentioned Jacob instead of Israel. And I think, what is the difference between Jacob and Israel? Why didn't he say, and Israel shall. What is it? Prosper in the desert? So the Lamanites are going to blossom like a rose, and Jacob is going to prosper in the wilderness or the. Yeah, I'd have to look at it. It's one of those words. But as I was thinking about it, why Jacob instead of Israel? And I think about Jacob. Jacob was his name. And who is Israel? How did Israel come about? We've touched on this before, this idea that Jacob wrestled with God and wouldn't let go until God finally said, what is it that you want? I need you to let go of me. I need to go. What is it you want? And he says, I want you to give me a blessing. And he says, okay. And he changes his name to Israel. And this idea, to me means a lot. I know President Nielsen talked about it a little bit with let him prevail or let God prevail. But I almost look at it differently in the sense that sometimes our greatest adversary in life isn't Satan. It's not the opposition. It's not Satan that makes things so hard for us. It's actually God. When you look at Abraham, it wasn't Satan that asked him to sacrifice his son. When you look at Job, it was God that gave Satan permission to do what he was going to do, to afflict him. Right. When you look at Jonah, it was God that asked him to go to Nineveh and preach among the Assyrians. And it's God that asks us to do hard things. It's God that calls us to go serve missions, or God that asks us. And so when I look at Jacob wrestling with God, I see in our life a lot of the trials that we have come in. Our determination to try to follow God because we're trying to do his will, trying to do his word. It's not the thou shalt not kill that tempts me and gives me problems and fits the night, this temptation to go kill somebody. It's the commandment to fast on Sunday or the commandment to go serve a calling that maybe I don't have as much love for, or whatever the case may be, it's God that seems to be the opposition a lot of times. And as we wrestle with God to do our best to persevere, to hold on, and to be faithful in what he's asking us to do, no matter how hard it is. And at the end of the day, we find ourselves still clinging to God and holding on. Israel literally does mean to prevail is the iser. And then el God is to prevail with God, to persevere with God, to fight with God and win this idea that no matter what, we are still at the end holding on to God. We haven't abandoned him, we haven't left him for as many hard things as he's asked us to do. And that's what changes us from Jacob to Israel. So if he's mentioning just Jacob here, I wonder if he's not necessarily talking about the Israelites, the people that have prevailed with God as much as the literal descendants of Jacob, wherever they may be. Maybe they haven't persevered with God. Maybe they've let God go, maybe they've abandoned God, maybe they've gone apostate. But still they're descendants of Jacob. Maybe he's talking about the descendants living today of Jacob in the world versus Israel, those who are still holding and persevering to that idea, who are still trying to believe in God and talking about that symbolism and what it means. I have to ask the question, who are the Lamanites and how are they blossoming like a rose? Because the Lamanites, to me, this has been such an elusive, not very well defined like, who are they? It seems like in the very beginning of the church, it was very clear the Native Americans in that area were called Lamanites. But that idea has spread to all of South America, Latin America, Hawaii, the South Pacific, New Zealand, you know, your Samoa, Tonga. All of these are Lamanites. But then you start doing your DNA testing or your genetics and your background and looking at these people and you say, oh, actually, maybe it was a very few amount. And this whole term is, who are the Lamanites and how are they supposed to blossom like a rose? And I think the scriptures are always true. I think the word of God is always correct. I think what changes and what needs to revise and evolve is our perception of those scriptures and how we interpret them. And I know Wilford Woodruff early on, as he looked at this, he said, this is one of the hardest prophecies I could see being fulfilled. As I see the internment camps and the Native Americans being pushed off the land, I have a hard time seeing these people being able to rise up and build a new Jerusalem. The way he saw it, he said, this is going to be the greatest miracle ever, because I don't know how this is going to happen. It seems so hard for me. And then you fast forward and more modernly, prophets have looked at this and said, wow. You look at Latin America and the baptismal rate and how fast they are joining the church, this is it. This is Lamanite blood, and they are flocking to it, and they are blossoming like a rose. And this is the fulfillment of Scripture. And I stand here even at this point with hindsight, and I am just not sure on this one. But I did have an interesting thought. I can't say anything conclusively on this. I can just say in fourth Nephi, we had reached a point in time in the Book of Mormon where there were no more Lamanites. [00:39:17] Speaker B: Wait. No more Nephites. [00:39:18] Speaker A: No more Lamanites. [00:39:19] Speaker B: No more Lamanites. [00:39:20] Speaker A: No more Lamanites. [00:39:21] Speaker B: I didn't know that all the Lamanites were gone. [00:39:23] Speaker A: All the Lamanites were gone because all the Lamanites were converted. When Christ came in third Nephi, they dropped the name Lamanites and they all became Nephites. And then in 4th Nephi, it says, and a group of people left the church and started to call themselves Lamanites. At this point in time, Lamanites had nothing to do with Laman Lemuel or the descendants that they were. It was just a term of those who believed in Christ were called Nephites. And those who dissented and did not believe or did not want to join were called Lamanites. And you had these two groups, this dichotomy that were fighting back and forth and had this issue. And I look at early America and this idea, the Gospel is here, it has been founded and restored, and those who believed were called Mormons. I wonder if you couldn't refer to them in a symbolic sense as the Nephites of the time, where those that persecuted them, that hated them, that fought against them, that would not come in here, in this land in America, could be referred to as Lamanites. And this idea that they fought each other and what did they do? Well, every time the Nephites, you look at it, what did Nephi do? He left the land of his inheritance and migrated his people somewhere else. And then what happens? Lamanites eventually follow them. They are established in the land of Nephi, and what do they do? They pack up and leave the land of Nephi and wander over. Mosiah takes them on a little exodus, and then they end up to the land of Zarahemla. And then again, they have to pull out, pick up stakes and move further north. And this isn't any different from where they had to, by the way, pull up out of Jerusalem and leave there as the wicked pursued them. And so as I look at the early history of the Church, I can almost see the Nephites as these righteous people. Joseph Smith, almost like this Father Lehi figure or this Nephi that's taking this people from Kirtland to Nauvoo to Independence, to wherever the case may be, to where finally Brigham Young is taking them into the Rocky Mountains. And the people that are pursuing them, the United, United States, the remaining populace, if you will, almost as a Lamanites. And this idea that maybe the Lamanites stop chasing the Nephites and they start to blossom as a rose and the people get along peaceably. Maybe that is what this is referring to. Honestly, I have no idea. I know that the word of God is true. I know that this will happen. I just don't know what my perception on this or if we fully understand exactly how it's going to happen or is happening or has or hasn't happened. [00:42:08] Speaker B: Seems fair to me. [00:42:11] Speaker A: One last thing, I guess as it just hit me. [00:42:14] Speaker B: Sorry, tell me, what is it that just hit you? I'm ready. [00:42:19] Speaker A: I told you. This idea of inequality. Inequality, The Lord keeps hammering it over and over again. Right at the very end, he says, don't be deceived by the Son of Man, is not going to come as a woman. The Son of man is not going to come as a wanderer in the earth, he says. But when he does come, something that is going to happen is the mountains are going to be dropped and the valleys are going to be lifted and the rough places made smooth. And I look at the symbolic idea of that this exalted are going to be dropped. And if the mountains are being lowered and if the plains are being raised, then what's happening, this equality is finally reaching the earth. And if that's the Lord's work is to bring up the poor and to drop down, I guess, the exalted. Whatever we can do to try to help those that are trodden down or to distribute whatever we can of our own free will. Not because somebody tells us to or because we're forced to, but because that's what God wants us to do. I think that is something that God is just really pushing. Awesome. [00:43:34] Speaker B: What are we talking about next week? [00:43:36] Speaker A: Next week we are diving into Doctrine and Covenants, sections I believe 51 through 57. We will take a look at what is there. [00:43:45] Speaker B: All right, man. I love it. I love it. I guess we will check again next week. [00:43:51] Speaker A: Sounds good. See ya.