Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the Add On Education Network. The podcast where we explore the weekly Come follow me discussion and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here with my friend and this show's producer, Nate Pifer.
[00:00:28] Speaker B: What's up?
[00:00:29] Speaker A: Hey.
All right. In this episode we're going to talk a little bit about Hebrew poetry. We're going to take a look at the end times and some of the things that we're waiting for with the day that Christ comes. And we're going to talk a little bit more about when Christ says that he gives all commandments. They're spiritual, not temporal. And what that means.
And just fair warning, as we get started with this episode, sometimes you have a couple sections that you try to figure out how to make a couple sections stretch into a full discussion. Well, here it's a single section, but with all the hours I've put in, there's no way we can cover everything that we would like to. So if you would like to continue the discussion on with us or as you look at Doctrine and covenants, section 29 and there are some things in there that we didn't hit that you were hoping we could talk about, feel free to email us hi. @weeklydeepdive.com and carry on that discussion. Ask us about some of those scriptures or what we think. We'd love to keep that discussion going with you.
All right, let's start with verse one.
And we have the word of the Lord here he's speaking, says, listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your redeemer the great. I am. Whose arm of mercy hath atoned for your sins? And I just want to pause right there.
It seems, I don't know, you might not have noticed it. I don't notice it when I just read it. It just sounds normal. But when you think about it for a second, the Lord says, whose arm of mercy hath atoned for your sins? And why is he saying, it's my arm that did it? That sounds like kind of a weird way of saying it. Like, look at my massive bicep. It atoned for your sins. It is awesome.
Why wouldn't he say, I am Jesus Christ, I have atoned for your sins. Why would he be pointing attention to his arm? My arm hath done it.
And that's a small detail that I think points to really. It is the voice of the Lord. It is the voice of Jesus Christ. It is not the voice of some 14 year old farm boy. Well, in this Case he is not 14 years old anymore. We got to remember that, right? 1830. But at the same time, it's not this little educated young man in the 1800s who's trying to sound like he's the Lord. How would you ever say that? The arm of the Lord, when he says the arm of the Lord, this is an example of metonymy. And metonymy is a form of poetry often found in the Bible. And the Lord says, like the eye of the Lord, or when he uses a body part to try to mention a characteristic or a trait that conveys significance. When the eye of the Lord is on you, it's not like there's literally some eyeball glued to you wherever you go. But the Lord is watching, right?
And the arm of the Lord, arm is often associated with power or strength. And you see the same thing with the hand of the Lord. The hand is often associated as this symbol of strength or action or being able to do it. He hath done it by his hand.
And interesting enough, when you read, when they say that the hand of the Lord is stretched out still, you know what I'm talking about in second Nephi or in Isaiah, for all this, his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still. And oftentimes we associate that with it doesn't matter how bad we are, the Lord still has his hand outreached to save us, to hold us. If we just reach out, we can grasp that hand and he can reel us in and save us. The hand of the Lord. But interesting enough, in those verses, when we're using this metonymy, this example is using this hand as a symbol of his action or his ability. It's the hand of the Lord that smites. He is smiting the people.
And it's giving all these examples of the things that he has done to smite the people because they turned away from him. And then he says, for all of this, his anger is not turned away. Like, wait a second, he's still mad. If his anger is not turned away, he's still mad. But his hand is stretched out still. He still has some smiting to go. But it is interesting that you have the arm of the Lord and the hand of the Lord. These. These symbols of power, of creation, of action, of being able to smite or being able to gather. And so many times it's associated with those two things, whether it's the destruction and the smiting of the people, or the saving and the delivering of his people. And, you know, sometimes it's one and the same when you're talking about delivering the people up out of Egypt.
He smites the river, or he smites the sea, the Red Sea, to allow the people to go past. He smites the Egyptians so that the people can go free. So sometimes the hand that smites, even when he chastises us, it's that smiting that humbles us and prepares us or at the same time delivers us. But it is interesting. He uses that a lot in the Old Testament times, in the way we read it in the Bible and the poetry, this Hebrew poetry that we see. The Lord talks this way, and yet that's preserved. Or what we see in the Lord speaking, even in doctrine and covenants.
All right, let's go to the next one. Doctrine and Covenants, verse 2. We see the imagery again where he says he would gather his people as a hen, gathered the chicken under their wings. I'm not going to go too much into that. We spent an episode talking about the Lord using the mother image, right? And how he earns that title of mother. But in this, the reason I wanted to call some attention to it is, is because he not only says that he will gather like the hen, but he now lays out three simple conditions if we want to be gathered like a hen. So we're not trying to describe why he has that title or how he has that power, but rather, how can we be gathered under his wing as like a motherly parent that's holding us and protecting us. Who wouldn't want that?
He says, as many as will, one, hearken to my voice, two, humble themselves before me, and three, call upon me in mighty prayer.
And I think it's interesting that he's not just regular prayer, right? He says, call upon me in mighty prayer. Is it really that simple? Just those three things? And that's what's going to take us to being gathered like a mother hen. What about all the other commandments that God's commanding us? How does that fit in the equation? What do you think, Nate? Is it just that symbol, those three things?
[00:07:21] Speaker B: I don't know.
Yeah, I wish I could be more help this week. I'm going to be. I am sick and dying in here and I'm sorry.
[00:07:31] Speaker A: I'm sorry, Nate.
[00:07:32] Speaker B: I wish I could get your back better, but I can't this week. This one's on you, my man.
[00:07:36] Speaker A: All right, all right. Gotcha.
As I look at it, you know, you could say, what about baptism, right? If you're saying that only these three things is all it takes for the Lord to gather us under his wings. Well, what about baptism? Or what are those that don't get baptized? But at the same time, the first one here, he's saying, if you hearken unto my word, right? If you're hearkening to the word of the Lord and the Lord asks you to do these things, then I guess it is that simple. But at the same time, that also involves a little bit more complexity. The complexity. And come follow me and take up your cross. And the things that we do, do we like the Good Samaritan? Are we the ones that stop and help somebody who's struggling on the way? Well, that's not one of those three things. Or is it? When we follow his example, when we do those things, that's what qualifies us to be gathered under his wing.
All right, let's slide to the next one here in verse 3.
Not going to spend a ton of time on this, but it does say, your sins are forgiven you. But he says this note of caution, therefore, yeah, you receive these things because your sins are forgiven you. But remember to sin no more lest perils shall come upon you. And that was a question I wanted to ask you guys.
Sin no more lest perils come upon you. Is that a threat from the Lord?
If you sin, then I'll send perils your way.
Or more a word of caution.
By not sinning, we're avoiding certain perils. But by us crossing that line, we're taking upon us unnecessary risks that are going to open us up to perils down the road.
All right. In verse four, we talk about the voice says, verily I say unto you, you are chosen out of the world to declare my gospel with the sound of rejoicing, as with a voice of a trump. Lift up your hearts and be glad, for I am in your midst and I am your advocate with the Father. When the Lord is saying, lift up your voice and declare this, as with the voice of a trump.
We hear this idea of trump sounding in the Book of Revelations. And when we are talking about end time prophecies, the sound of a trump is going to go forth. To me, it is interesting to see that the Lord saying, the missionary work and the missionaries that go out and lift up their voice to preach as with the sound of a trumpet. I wonder if that's not the same trump that he's talking about when his servants are speaking and declaring this message or declaring this warning or taking this out to the world. If this isn't one of the trumps that the Lord is saying.
So I thought that was interesting, that he would compare missionary work in the voice of the people here to almost like a heavenly trump or an angelic trump and give a new perspective on what it means to have that trump, that voice.
And here we have legal terminology again when he says, I am your advocate with the Father. And we talked about this before with a judge, with an accuser, and with an advocate. And it's interesting to me when Oliver Cowdery in Doctrine and covenants section 20 told Joseph Smith that the Scripture was wrong when it says that we need to bring forth fruit, works manifest by our works, that we have repented, that we have received the remission of our sins. He said having people manifest with their works would be introducing priestcraft. And it's a different perspective from what the Lord has. And here the Lord is showing his perspective. I am your advocate.
As your advocate, I need to build a defense for you.
I need you to manifest by your works. I need these examples. I need these things to happen. Go lift up your hearts, rejoice. Lift up your voice. Do these things. Follow me. Give me something to work with, something that I can say, look, this is mine.
My atonement has paid their sins. And he's building a defense case for us as our. As our advocate.
And then verse six, it says that whatsoever you ask in faith, being united in prayer, and according to my command, you shall receive. That sounds an awful lot like a magic lamp.
If anything you ask for, you, you will receive.
And they say, you know, you must ask in faith.
How does that work? How this idea that we have this magical access to whatever we want, the Lord is going to give it to us.
And if that's the case, then why aren't the Saints better off when they pray to be delivered from persecution? Or if you pray that you'll financially be set, or if you pray for things, if the Lord is saying that whatever you ask for, being united in faith, you'll receive. I think the key here, and why it's not quite this free pass to get whatever you want, is the phrase that it says, being united in prayer according to my command. If we're asking things and we're not united in prayer, then it's not so much a guarantee. But how do we become united in prayer? And I look at the prayer of, say, for example, the Book of Mormon. When they are praying that the Book will come forth in the last days, they are united with God in what he desires for his people.
When they are praying that Israel will be restored, when they are praying that the gospel will come forth. When they are praying and they are united in prayer with the will of God, it is absolutely going to happen.
And that's a hard one for us. How many times have we prayed for pain to go away or temptation to leave us? Or how many times have we prayed for somebody to be healed, hoping that that miracle would happen and it doesn't go away? How many times did Paul pray that the thorn would be removed from his side and the Lord told him each time, no. And some of these weaknesses are there to make us strong. And some of these things we can't pull away from us. Some of these things we just have to deal with the point or the purpose to having these things. Granted, it says, is being united in prayer and finding out maybe what we should be doing as we are praying in these instances or in these cases is praying to find out what the Lord's will is so that we can align to it, so that we can pray for that, so that we can be united in thought and united in prayer with God and praying for the right thing to happen in those situations.
All right, next, the Lord says in verse seven that you are called to the gathering of mine elect and mine elect hear my voice and harden not their hearts. We know we have been talking about the gathering. We've seen it several times before in Doctrine and Covenants. The field is white and all ready to harvest. Lo, he that thrusteth in his sickle with all his might layeth up salvation to his soul. Right? This idea of gathering has been a very central role in Doctrine and Covenants to this point, a very central role to the Church as it's been restored early on this importance of gathering. But this is a little bit more than just that. Verse 8. Wherefore the decree hath gone forth from the Father, that they shall be gathered unto one place upon the face of this land to prepare their hearts and to be prepared in all things against the day when tribulation and desolation are sent forth upon the wicked.
So the purpose and the role of them being gathered is to be prepared for the day of tribulation and desolation.
And my question, I guess, out of this as I read this is, has that day happened or are we waiting for it? What is the day of tribulation and desolation? And the Lord says in verse nine, to try to give us a little more context for the hour is nigh and the day soon at hand, when the earth is ripe and all the proud, and they that do Wickedly shall be as stubble, and I will burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that wickedness shall not be upon the earth.
So has that happened? Are we waiting for that? Where are we at? Along these lines?
And I wish I had you guys live here just to kind of poll the audience or find out what you guys think. Where are we at? The Lord says he's going to gather all of these people to one place to prepare them for the day when tribulation and desolation are sent forth upon the wicked. The hour is nigh. The day is soon at hand when the earth is ripe and all the proud. And they that do wickedly shall be as stubble, and I will burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts. This sounds a lot like rapture to me.
This idea that the Lord will be gathering all of the righteous, pulling them up off the earth and burning the remnants of the earth as stubble. That everyone that's left on the earth kind of gets destroyed while those that are righteous are caught up into heaven. It sounds a lot like rapture, but I'm not entirely sure that's what it's talking about. Then in verse 10, as I was reading, it says the hour is nigh, that that which is going to be spoken, verse 9. For the hour is nigh and the day soon at hand. And I thought about that. How can the hour be nigh if the day isn't even here yet?
Because if we're talking about we're still waiting for that day to happen, then how can the hour be close? Doesn't the day have to get here first before the hour can be nigh? And as I thought about that more and more, and I remember back in the biblical world in Jewish history, the day starts with the sun setting, so the hour when the sun sets is nigh. The hour is drawing near, that the sun sets and the next day begins, so that the hour is nigh and the day soon at hand. And when we're talking about a day, the Lord the Lord I think in this instance is referring more to a thousand year period of time than he is a specific day when these things are going to happen.
And to give you some, to give you some ideas about what I'm talking about there, there's some scriptures that talk about the time of the Lord and the time of the Lord being compared to a thousand years is being compared to a day in the Lord's time in second Peter, chapter three, verse eight. But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing. That one day is with The Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. And then if we go to the apocrypha Jubilees, chapter 4:29. And at the close of the 19th Jubilee, in the seventh week, in the sixth year thereof, Adam died and all his sons buried him in the land of his creation. And he was the first to be buried in the earth. And he lacked 70 years of 1000 years. For 1000 years are as of one day in the testimony of the heavens. And therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge, on the day that you eat thereof you shall die. For this reason he did not complete the years of his day, for he died during it. And then even in our time. Abraham, chapter 3, verse 4. One Revolution of Kolob is a day unto the Lord, but 1000 years according to our time. So when the Lord says the hour is drawing nigh and the day is soon at hand, I believe that he is referencing the millennial period, this next thousand days in Earth's history. And he's been talking about this. You've got one week span here. Just like the creation of this idea of seven days. You've got 6,000 years of history. And then this seventh day will be a day of peace, a day of rest, or a thousand year period of rest this millennium. And he's saying that the night, or excuse me, the hour is drawing near, the day is soon at hand when these things will happen. So when we're talking about a time frame, I don't think all of this is going to happen in one day. We're not just waiting for one magical day to show up, but throughout this thousand year period of time, we're going to be seeing some powerful things happening and some wonderful things that are happening.
And as he talks about this again, verse 10. For the hour is nigh that that which was spoken by my apostles must be fulfilled. For as they spoke, so shall it come to pass. For I will reveal myself from heaven with power and with great glory, and with all the hosts thereof that dwell in righteousness with men on earth for a thousand years. And the wicked shall not stand in verse 12. And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, and it hath gone forth in a firm decree.
He's talking about the righteousness and it's going to happen there. But then he talks about some of the destructions that are going to happen.
Behold, let's see, verse 14. But behold, I say unto you that before this great day shall come, the sun shall be darkened, the moon shall be turned to Blood. The stars shall fall from the heaven, and there shall be greater signs in the heaven above and in the earth beneath. And there shall be weeping and wailing among the hosts of men. And there shall be a great hailstorm sent forth to destroy the crops of the earth.
And it shall come to pass, because of the wickedness of the world, that I will take revenge upon the wicked, for they will not repent. For the cup of mine indignation is full. For behold, my blood shall not cleanse them if they hear me not. Wherefore I the Lord God will send forth flies upon the face of the earth, which shall take hold of the inhabitants thereof, and shall eat their flesh and shall cause maggots to come in upon them. And their tongues shall be stayed that they shall not utter against me. And their flesh shall fall from off their bones and their eyes from their sockets. And it shall come to pass that the beasts of the forest and the fowls of the air shall devour them.
That's some heavy stuff, right?
So as we're talking about this timeline, are we still waiting for that to happen? This tribulation, this. What do they call it? Tribulation and desolation sent forth upon the wicked.
Has it happened or is it going to happen? Are we waiting for it or was it fulfilled?
I think most people think we're still waiting for that day to get here. We're still waiting for the time when the righteous will be gathered up, the wicked are going to burn, and these things that are talking about are going to be fulfilled. But I want to look at this maybe from a different perspective. The prophet Joseph Smith said, and now I am prepared to say, by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the history of our nation.
Pestilence, hell, famous famine and earthquake will sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of the land to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north country.
The prophet Joseph Smith is saying these things, these destructions was going to happen in not very many years.
And going back to the Bible or not the Bible, but doctrine and Covenants, there's some pretty sick things that they're saying right the.
Let me just pull this up so I got it.
The Lord will send forth flies upon the face of the earth, which shall take hold of the inhabitants thereof and shall eat their flesh and shall cause maggots to come in upon them and their tongues shall be stayed, and they shall not utter against me. And their flesh shall fall from off their bones and the eyes from their sockets. And the beasts of the forest shall and the fowls of the air shall devour them.
The Lord gathered the saints all in one place.
He brought them out of the United States over the rocky mountains into the salt lake valley. And after the saints had all fled the United States and set up passageway for the European travelers to come across the trail over to Utah, Civil war broke out. And when the civil war broke out, it was pretty bad.
And let me just read a few descriptions of what they. Of what they came across.
This is of a battlefield here. One rebel private described the human wreckage after the battle of Angle at Spottlesvania, Virginia.
Those who were not very badly mutilated were swollen as long as they could swell. Their faces were nearly black. Their mouths, nose, eyes, hair. And the mutilated parts were full of maggots. This is a horrible picture, but it's not overdrawn. What an awful scent.
They were so bad.
See, in the burial of the dead in this particular part of the field, the 130th Regiment, by reason of having incurred the displeasure of the brigade brigade commander was honored in the appointment as undertaker in chief. The weather was phenomenally hot, and the stench from the hundreds of black, bloated, decomposed maggoty bodies exposed to a torrid heat for three days after the battle was a sight truly horrid and beggarly all power of verbal expression. A lot of times the graves were dug very shallow, if dug at all. Bodies were left out for animals to eat. The fly problem was terrible.
In describing the problems they had with flies.
When we open our eyes in the morning, we find the canvas roofs and walls of our tents black with them flies. It needs no morning reveille then to rouse the soldier from his slumbers.
The tickling sensations about the ears, eyes, mouth, nose, etc. Caused by the microscopic feet and the inquisitive suckers of an army as numerous as the sands of the seashore will awaken a regiment of men from innocent sleep to wide awake profanity more promptly than the near beat of the alarming drum.
And going on to describe that, another confederate said, I get vexed at them and commence killing them. But as I believe 40 come to everyone's funeral, I have given it up as a bad job. And talking about killing the flies, it was bad.
The flies were bad and the pestilence was bad. Not only that, but if you look at the major cause of death during the Civil War. Disease killed more people than everything else combined, including gunshots, artillery, drowning, starvation, suicide, etc. The worst disease was dysentery. They had problems with health.
Aside from dysentery, you had typhoid, pneumonia, measles, tuberculosis, malaria. All of these diseases killed more people than the actual fighting in the Civil War did. You want to talk about plagues and destruction and pestilence that swept over the nation. A nation that turned their back against people and refused to help them, even though their cause was just.
I feel here that we've got a lot of.
I don't know, it just seems to fit.
And when I look at the hour is nigh and the day approaches, this is what I think. And it could be right, it could be wrong, but for what it's worth, it's what I think.
If the day begins with the sunset, then before the rise of the next morning, the day starts in darkness.
And I look at this day, this thousand year period that was going to begin, and I look at it at the commencement of the restored gospel here as the Lord comes down and he says, this is going to happen soon. But before this peace, before this millennial society, before we get to all of the brightness and the good day, I'm going to have to gather my saints in and there's going to be a lot of darkness. And you want to talk about darkness upon the face of the earth before the coming of our modern times, you don't need to look too far.
Aside from the persecution of the saints, aside from being chased out of their homes and having to walk across the snow barefoot and women being raped, aside from being shot at and having all of your property stolen. You look at the treatment of slaves in early American history and what they were being put through, shipped across the ocean in boats. You look at the witch trials before they got here and the witch trials here in America, nothing compared to what was going on in Europe. And you see this darkness not only from leading up to this next day, but as we go into this day. You look at the Holocaust, or you look at some of these other atrocities in history through these periods of time. You look at the Inquisition, you look at the London Tower, the torture, you look at the fight for freedom with the Scottish, you go back and watch Braveheart and you see some of the things that were happening at that time.
And a lot of this is state sponsored. You look at Russia and you look at the way they've treated their people. You look at A world that was covered in darkness.
And after the restored gospel comes out, after you have a free people here in the Americas and you have this beacon of hope and this gathering, if you will, the world over changes. The most important export of the United States was its constitution to where it was the first written constitution that we know of in world history, to the point where today almost every single nation in the world has it. We've gone from tyranny, we. We have gone from monarchs, we have gone from oppression, where it was these governments that were mass killing people. It was these governments that were committing all of these atrocities in this night, if you will, of trying to move over to a world full of peace. And the world has changed.
You look at this time period with the prophet Joseph Smith, and you look at building codes that didn't exist when fires happened. The great Chicago fire, You look at the London fire. You look at these fires that just run through and burn all of these houses and kill all of these people. You look at earthquakes that would happen and how much destruction they would cause back then before you had building codes. And you look at the sicknesses, the yellow fever, you look at the tuberculosis, you look at the bubonic plague or the Black Death, or you look at the cholera outbreaks, you look at the yellow fever, all of these different things. Smallpox, before they had vaccinations. And now you look. I mean, we're coming out of COVID 19, which has killed a lot of people. But imagine what a COVID 19 would have done earlier on, before they understood things. A lot of the problems with the Civil War is just lacking a basic understanding of putting a latrine up above your water supply, so that would contaminate all of your water and make the entire camp sick. You wouldn't see things like that happen today. Things have changed. People have changed. And when you go to war, you don't have these.
What we have today are small skirmishes compared to what we've gone through before. And the world over changed in the darkness of the beginning of this day. As you look from the spread of the Civil War to later, all of the revolutionary wars that were being fought all over the place as people fought for their freedom. The World War I, you have World War II, all of these great wars that changed the landscape of the earth. As I think this darkness, as we're waiting for the light to appear, where now you're starting to see advances in technology, a lot more peace. Scholars describe this period of time as the great peace and say, never has there Been this much peace known the world over in society than what we enjoy today.
So as we look at some of these prophecies and we look at some of this end time deal, yes, we've got this thousand year window where things are going to be happen, but it's pretty cool to see where we're at and some of the things that we've been through as a society and some of the things that our ancestors have been through and maybe get a gauge on where we're at today.
Something that as we were talking about these deaths and destructions when the Lord Sundays in verse 14, the sun shall be darkened, the moon shall be turned to blood, the stars shall fall from heaven and there should be great signs in the heaven above and the earth beneath. And if we're talking about these things where the saints will be gathered and pulled away and wickedness, the destruction will be poured out about the wicked. If we're saying that this is the saints being gathered to Utah and the coming destruction of the Civil War, then you might ask, well, what about these signs in the heavens, these great signs in the heavens? And there was a cool meteor shower that the prophet Joseph Smith was able to witness in his day that I thought was fascinating. So as you go to NASA, they've got some interesting statistics about meteor showers and things that you know how often they happen, how big they happen and what to expect in a meteor shower. According to NASA, a good meteor shower produces about 60 meteors an hour. So that's about one meteor a minute. If you get to see a good meteor shower, one of the best ones that that's happened in somewhat our time, 1993, was that the Perseid shower, it peaked at 300 meteors an hour, which was a pretty good one, 300 meteors an hour. In 1833, the Leonid, the Leonid shower produced 100,000 meteors an hour, which is what Joseph Smith saw, 100,000 an hour.
And according to NASA.gov, they've got some, they've got some accounts, first hand accounts, quotes from that time period. This is one that really stuck out to me. It says upwards of 100 lay prostrate on the ground with their hands raised imploring God to save the world and them. The scene was truly awful. For never did rain fall so much thicker than the meteors fell towards the earth. East, west, north, south, it was the same.
Can you imagine that a meteor shower that is compared to being thicker than rain and how terrifying that was.
Speaking of the shower, the prophet Joseph Smith said November 13, about 4:00 I am. I was awakened by Bro. Davis knocking at my door and calling me to arise and behold the signs of heaven. I arose and to my great joy beheld the stars fall from the heaven like a shower of hailstones. A literal fulfillment of the Word of God as recorded in the Holy Scriptures as a sure sign that the coming of Christ is close at hand. In the midst of the shower of fire, I was led to exclaim, how marvelous are thy works, O Lord.
So Joseph Smith called the shower a literal fulfillment of the Word of God as recorded in the Holy Scriptures. So I think it's exciting that a lot of things have happened. Obviously not everything has happened.
One thing here in verse 12 that I wanted to point out, and Nate, you actually kind of saw this before I even noticed it. And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, it hath gone forth in a firm decree by the will of the Father, that mine apostles, the twelve which were with me in my ministry at Jerusalem, shall stand at my right hand at the day of my coming in a pillar of fire, being clothed with robes of righteousness, with crowns upon their heads in glory, even as I am to judge the whole house of Israel, even as many as would have loved me and kept my commandments. And then we heard, you know, for a trump shall sound, and before that day comes, these destructions had to happen first. So we went over the destructions as fulfillment. After the destructions, at some point in time, Christ was going to come in the heavens with twelve apostles at his right hand. And not just any apostles, but those who were with me in my ministry at Jerusalem shall stand at my right hand at the day of my coming.
When we say 12 that were with Christ in his earthly ministry, that list includes Judas Iscariot.
Christ died before Judas died, and therefore before Judas, place was filled on the quorum of the 12, if you will. So when he is Talking about the 12 that were with me, the question I have, is Judas going to be one of the 12 who judge the saints at the end of times?
And it is an interesting question in the Book of Mormon. It talks about the 12 in the book of Mormon will judge them, and then they will in turn be judged by the 12 that were at Jerusalem. So I have to wonder, are we going to be judged by the 12 of our dispensation and the 12 of our dispensation? If we are talking about the prophet Joseph Smith and the 12 apostles that he chose, 10 of the 12 apostles had kind of gone astray and fallen away a little bit, had complained against Joseph and had turned away or offended him in some way. Out of the 12, there were only two that were completely faithful.
Are we going to be judged by apostles that have left the church, or apostles that have committed sin, or apostles that have left? And does that give those apostles a different perspective as they come to judge us? Having been on both sides of the fence, is there going to be a little bit of leniency there? And they talk about it. They are not judging the whole world over. It is just judging the saints.
[00:39:08] Speaker B: What do you think, though?
[00:39:09] Speaker A: It is a question.
[00:39:10] Speaker B: Does Judas make it or not?
[00:39:11] Speaker A: It is a question I don't have an answer to.
[00:39:14] Speaker B: I'm going to go out on a limb and say a son of perdition will not be judging anybody.
That's just me, though.
[00:39:22] Speaker A: You know, in Doctrine and covenants, section 1 32, when we're talking about plural marriage, it talks about the impardonable sin, if you will, if we want to mention son of perdition. And I think it gives an interesting definition to what a son of perdition is or what committing the impardonable sin is to become that.
And it says, if you. Let's see.
Sorry, I wasn't expecting to open up this verse today. But right here, Doctrine Covenants 132, man, you know, you know, when it's on the right hand side of the page here or the left column.
[00:40:26] Speaker B: I'm interested. I'm interested in seeing how you're going to get Judas out of being a son of perdition.
[00:40:32] Speaker A: Well, forgive me, maybe I'll post this link up on the website. Doctrine Covenants 132. It's one of these verses here. I don't, I don't want to make you guys wait forever, but it does say that the unpardonable sin is for anyone who has received the gospel, who's made these covenants, and then sheds innocent blood. And this idea that you have to shed innocent blood to commit the unpardonable sin, it's not just denying the Holy Ghost, but it's shedding innocent blood after you have received the ordinances.
[00:41:08] Speaker B: So Jesus doesn't count as innocent blood in this case.
[00:41:10] Speaker A: And so when we talk about sons of perdition, two names rise to the top of the list. Cain and Judas, because Cain slays Abel and Judas slays Christ. And I had a professor in New Testament put kind of an interesting perspective on this. And it's not to say that he believed this was the case. It's not to Say that he's teaching this. It's not to say that this was it, but it was an interesting perspective. He said, what if Judas believed Christ was the Son of God and he wanted to convince the world that Christ was the Son of God.
This act of his was a way to force God's hand to show the world that Christ was the Son of God and that he would deliver himself from off the cross. That his intentions wasn't to actually shed innocent blood, that he wasn't trying to get Christ killed. He was trying to get Christ to perform a miracle in front of everybody that would vindicate them and their beliefs in following and choosing to follow Christ.
[00:42:11] Speaker B: It's an interesting thought, but I mean, Jesus told him at the Last Supper, like, one of you here is going to betray me. He didn't say, one of you here is going to do something that's kind of dumb in an effort to make me do something that I'm not going to do. He pretty much was just like, look, what are you here is going to betray me?
Judas is like, nah, it's me.
[00:42:33] Speaker A: I'm out here.
[00:42:35] Speaker B: I mean, I like the thought of it. And I guess I'm glad that you're prefacing that with. I'm not saying that he's necessarily teaching or believing that. That's again, I don't know. I don't know exactly. To me, part of it is that it's like, well, then why is he worried about getting money? You know what I mean? Like, why isn't. I don't know, there's a lot that would, that would have to.
[00:42:54] Speaker A: Well, continue that line of question, like the asking the wise. Right. If that's the case, then why didn't he enjoy his money? Why did he go buy a field and immediately kill himself?
[00:43:05] Speaker B: I mean, because I think he realized. I think he just realized the gravity of what he had done. But I mean, I don't know, maybe. Maybe that is part of it too. I don't know.
[00:43:16] Speaker A: I don't know and I don't have an answer.
I have a hard time imagining a son of Perdition standing in judgment, judging the saints.
[00:43:26] Speaker B: Yeah. See, and that's why, I guess I'm just wondering if it's a, if, if, if it's more of a symbolic thing, like you said, that like different dispensations are going to have different people. You know what I mean?
[00:43:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:43:40] Speaker B: Judging us. Because I've always wondered about that also. I've always wondered when they were. When it's like, hey, here it's going to be me and my, you know. Well, I mean, part of it is too. I've always just wondered, even in some of, like the various different, like, ceremonies and stuff we do, like, why on earth, Peter, James and John or like, so, you know, prevalent, you know what I mean, in those types of things and, like, why they were key in bringing back the priesthood and things like that, you know, like, why those guys? But I think you've covered that pretty well in the past.
[00:44:11] Speaker A: Well, it's a good question, and I don't have an answer. I just think it is fascinating that when the Lord says, and not just in passing, but in a firm decree by the will of the Father, right. It's not his will, but the Father himself, in a firm decree, said, I want these people to stand there as judge. And Christ called each one of these people, I have to imagine, intentionally, for a purpose, for a role. At the time that he was calling them, was he knowing that he was also calling them to judge the saints at the end times of the world? Was that part of that call? Is there a reason they were chosen, even though they were not all perfect?
And even in spite of Judas going to make the decision that he made, If Christ knew that Judas was going to betray him, why did the Father, in a firm decree, why Judas? Why did he make it into the 12 in the first place? Why did the Lord pick a traitor?
I don't know. I don't have an answer to these questions. I am hoping this is something that we can kind of come to understand a little bit better.
But it's an interesting question.
All right, let's maybe just wrap this up with another thought and then we'll go on to something else.
But not about the 12 apostles, but let's wrap up this whole idea of the night and the day that is approaching this millennial day, this thousand years, when the Lord will come and reign here on earth.
I find something fascinating about the story of our story, about from Adam to where we're at, to where we're headed, that the Lord seems to be telling something in Hebrew poetry.
Going back to this idea of poetry. You have a chiasmus, and right here in one of these verses, I believe it even has an example where it says, the first shall be last and the last shall be first. And the idea of a chiasmus is that all of the lines kind of build up one direction and then you hit a center point, a key, a crux, and then everything goes back in reverse order to the very first thing that you said.
So if we were to do it with an Alphabet, right? A, B, C, B, A.
And I look at history as a giant chiasmus.
And in the beginning, we start with Christ. He is Alpha. He is the Creator. He puts man here on the earth. He creates the earth. He's there at the very beginning. And this idea that at the end, we're waiting for him to show up in great glory with the 12 at his side. He is Omega, so he is Alpha and Omega. He's here at the start, he'll be here at the end. Fast forward past Christ and we have the story of Adam. Adam begins here on the earth, and it's a story of him and his family. And then before Adam dies, he gathers all of his children together at Adam on Diamond. He delivers a blessing to them, prophesies to them, and then passes away. And this idea that before Christ comes, we're going to be having a reunion, if you will, at Adam on Diamond. And Adam will be there and all of the priesthood will be giving their keys back to Adam and giving him an accounting of what happened in their dispensations, in which he will turn and give an accounting to Christ. And so you have this next step. Your a line being Christ at the beginning, your beeline being Adam and Adam on Diamond. And as you keep moving through this idea, you've got Noah and the earth will be baptized with water. In the end, you're going to have the earth baptized by fire. And then you have this Moses, who is going to be establishing Israel, pulling it out of Egypt and creating this nation as they part the sea and come into this promised land.
Well, in our modern times, you have Joseph Smith, where no longer will they say the God lives that brought Israel out of Egypt, but the God lives that gathered Israel from all of these nooks and crannies and all of these remote places. This idea that they crossed the sea, the Atlantic Ocean in here to the States and recreated Israel. And not only was Joseph Smith like this Moses character, but you know that one thing that's always kind of driven you nuts about the story, when Moses takes his people and wanders through the wilderness and does everything he does, he sees the promised land and vision, but he's not allowed to go in, right?
Yeah.
It feels like a large injustice. Right.
And Moses, remember, he had one prince from each of the 12 tribes, and so he had a quorum of 12. And these 12 spies he sent into the land to go report on what they saw. Out of the 12, two came back Caleb and Joshua with a favorable report, the other 10 with the bad report. And the Lord cursed them because of their bad report. Now go back to Joseph Smith's time. If we're looking at him as a modern Moses, he called 12 apostles who spurned and rejected him. Out of all 12, only two, Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball, were faithful and true to Joseph Smith without turning on him. And Joseph Smith saw the promised land in vision. In fact, the night before he goes to Carthage jail, he's in a council with his friends and he says, I've got it. Hyrum and I will cross the river tonight and head into the Rocky Mountains. And I promise that once we're gone, they'll leave you alone. They're after us. Not a hair on your heads will be hurt.
And they say you're a coward. You flee the flock when the wolf comes in to the sheep. What kind of man are you? And Joseph Smith responds, if my life is of no value to my friends, then it is of no value to myself. And he turns himself in the next day. And he saw the promised land in vision, but he wasn't allowed to enter into it. Instead, you've got Brigham Young, who's going to be taking them the rest of the way into the promised Land, just as Joshua did for Moses, right? So you've got these repeating events in history from the beginning all the way to the end. And if you work your way to the center, the culminating peace, at the very center of history, you have Christ who came here, who offered his life, who died, right? And this idea of this chiasmus and the story playing out and, and history being kind of God's tell. I see this almost a mini chiasmus with the millennium as we're talking about this, just like in the Book of Mormon. And you see the Book of Ether, and it's this microcosm of what the Book of Mormon is. It's almost like a fast forward version of the Book of Mormon. I almost look at the Book of, like, we have a whole week here. And this last day, this millennial day, is almost like this Book of Ether, this little appendage right at the end of history that almost has its own little micro chiasmus. I see the start of this day, the very beginning in the night when the Lord comes down and quietly calls 12 apostles like a thief in the night. Nobody even knows this is happening. And they announce to the world the kingdom of God is here. Missionaries go out and start gathering the earth. And then sometime towards the end of this when it all wraps up, he's coming in great power and great glory again now with 12 apostles. But these 12 apostles are going to be at his right hand. And you just have these kind of these mirror images. Maybe this destruction that we're seeing with the.
With the civil war and the gathering of the saints was really just a small microcosm or a small type of what you're going to see at the end, a corresponding piece of the chiasmus when you have the rapture and the righteous are caught up into the clouds, while the stubble, the wicked that are left here on the earth are going to burn. And that why we read this and we don't think this has happened yet, is that it's really a sign of a greater thing that's going to be happening later on in this millennial day.
[00:52:44] Speaker B: Love it.
[00:52:45] Speaker A: All right, let's.
Let's maybe wrap this up by looking at one more verse that just really kind of stood out to us as we were looking through this.
And that to me is verse 33.
Speaking unto you, that you may naturally understand, but unto myself.
Oh, I grabbed the wrong one. Just. Just a second.
We can. We can start there. Let's just keep going, though. Speaking unto you, that you may naturally understand, but unto myself, my works have no end, neither beginning, but it's given unto you that you may understand because you're asked. You asked it of me and are agreed. Wherefore, verily, I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal. Neither any man, nor the children of men, neither Adam, your father, whom I created, the Lord saying, I never gave you any temporal laws.
[00:53:49] Speaker B: What do you think that means?
[00:53:51] Speaker A: That's a great question. And you might ask. Wait a second. What about sacrificing the turtle doves? Isn't that a temporal law?
[00:53:58] Speaker B: There's a lot of those things that I feel like you could probably go. This just feels like it's a very temporal surface nature law. So, yeah, I'm interested in your thoughts.
[00:54:07] Speaker A: On this, and I think about the word of wisdom. Right. That seems like a very temporal thing.
Don't drink alcohol. Well, I thought you were doing it before. What do you mean now? Or don't smoke or don't do drugs. And a lot of times we write this off as a law, like the Lord's health code. I want you to just be healthy. But he says, never at any time have I given you a temporal command. But all things are spiritual and I have to wonder, you know, going back at the very beginning when the Lord says, I am your advocate and he's building a case for you, how do you demonstrate? How do you build that case? How do you show, yes, I was willing to follow the Savior if the Savior isn't giving us something to do to follow Him. And maybe it's not so much the importance of what we're doing. Maybe it's not so much how many sheep we're going to be sacrificing or how many turtle doves we put on the altar or how many cups of coffee we do or don't drink. Maybe it's the fact that if we're willing to follow him in the small things, then he can prove our cause.
[00:55:18] Speaker B: I think. I think as much as I've been trying to think about this, there's kind of, like you said, there are definitely some commandments that make sense in relation or in context, I guess, with that scripture, right?
Like, the law of tithing isn't 100% a money law, right? Like, there's clearly the idea of recognizing that these possessions, these earthly possessions aren't ours and teaching us how to not become addicted to wealth or just earthly possessions, or teaching us how to be able to live within our means. There's a lot of spiritual lessons to be learned from this, right? And, you know, chastity and things like this. It's just like, okay, cool, that makes sense, right? And then like, you brought up the word of wisdom, like, yeah. And on some level, I think part of that is, too, is, here's how to be, here's how to be, here's how to retain your agency, right? Like, that's kind of maybe the big picture. Spiritual laws, like, hey, don't become addicted to anything. But then you go, okay, well, then why isn't this part of it? And why isn't caffeine part of it and why isn't this part of it? Right? And to your point, I. I do like that. And that. That kind of made me think, oh, good, you know, like, part of. Part of some of these laws are, who. Who. Who is your heart committed to? Right? Who is your. Who is your will committed to? Who is. Who is your agency committed to? Right? Is it. Is it committed to yourself and your earthly, you know, desires and things like that? Or is it. Or is it committed? Is your will being dedicated to the person whose name you have taken upon yourself?
[00:57:08] Speaker A: And maybe I can take this back to the beginning of this section when the Lord talks about after the harvest the stubble gets burned. And you think about the word harvest. And so many times this has showed up, right? The field is right, the field is right. Harvest. Go out there and harvest. And what is harvesting? Harvest literally means to kill.
If you are harvesting a pig, you are killing the pig, right? And maybe that is a bad example pigs in the law of kosher whatnot. But harvest is to kill.
And then what is the difference between what's gathered together versus what's left behind? And the stubble gets burned, but does not the harvest? You are still killing it, it still gets consumed.
But I think the difference is the harvest is useful, the harvest has value. The harvest, going back to our podcast about measurement, it meets the measurements, it meets the specifications to the builder. The builder can use it, the builder has found use in it.
And so when the Lord is proving us and giving us these laws, I think it's for our spiritual, our eternal, our salvation. We, by following those, end up helping the man, the Samaritan. Well, not the Samaritan, the man that was injured along the way, right? We become useful as we love the Lord and we follow him. That opens our eyes to opportunities to go and harvest others to gather to bring us in. And we unify. We feel unified with our family. The hearts of the fathers turn to the children, the children turn to the fathers. This idea that we're doing temple work, trying desperately to save them, we're creating this link, we're creating this bond. And who knows? But on the other side of the veil, our loved ones are the spirit that speaks to us under the direction of the Holy Ghost, giving us guidance, because angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. And it's this harvesting that we are being collected, combined, joined with a society that creates value, that creates worth. And as we follow in these, what we think are temporal laws, it's spiritually binding us to other like minded people, preparing our minds and preparing us to live in a society where we feel comfortable, where those that just don't quite fit in or want to join or want to be a part of that. I mean, at the end of the day, everybody dies. Whether you're harvested or whether you're burned in the field, you're still going to die.
But are you going to die in unification with your family, with the saints, with the society and where you love and feel a part of something? Or are you going to die kicking against the pricks and feeling alone?
I love that.
[01:00:06] Speaker B: I love that explanation.
I do like the imagery too. Of, of like you said, harvesting is the ending of life still in one way or another. And that part of what our jobs as representatives of Christ are to go, you know, and harvest, you know, people's old, temporal, very base lives and help them be born again. You know what I mean? To help them. Even, like, with the representation of. Even baptism and stuff like that. There's something that's, like, pretty profound about the harvesting is also the end of something and the beginning of something better.
[01:00:51] Speaker A: Crucifying the old man and giving birth to a new.
And those laws give us that opportunity.
[01:01:01] Speaker B: I think it also just helps, too, for me, at least, too, when I'm. When I struggle looking at some of the rules, you know, like, come on, what is this all about? It's. It's. It's helpful to remind myself this isn't a temporal thing, right? And. And it might have temporal benefits. And maybe it's a lesson that I can really only learn through temporal situations. You know what I mean? Or, like, maybe this is only. This is. This is a very spiritual lesson that I need to learn in a very temporal way, because that's the only way that I can learn the spiritual lesson. But it's. It's because I think it also should hopefully spur us to consider the things that we do when we're obeying commandments is to consider that with the idea that, like, this is a. There is a spiritual lesson to be learned here. There's a spiritual principle that I need to be extracting from this and not just a. Well, I don't smoke because it's not good for my lungs, you know?
[01:02:00] Speaker A: Yeah. And we've said this before. I like to go back to this. When God says, my ways are not your ways. And as President Monson has said so many times, the wisdom of God so many times seems like foolishness to man. And how Oliver Cowdery would challenge Doctrine and Covenants, Section 20. How could God say, bring fruits worthy. Your works need to demonstrate this. That's priestcraft. But then you look at it and no, these temporal laws, things that you think are temporal laws, as your advocate, it's changing you. You can't help but be changed. I don't know. It's amazing.
[01:02:38] Speaker B: I love it. All right, what are we talking about next week?
[01:02:41] Speaker A: Oh, boy.
[01:02:42] Speaker B: If this freaking thing doesn't kill me, if this.
[01:02:45] Speaker A: I hope we survive.
[01:02:48] Speaker B: Just so you know, everybody listening. Don't worry. Jason and I are in very separate rooms. We're having to, like, look at each other and yell at each other over a very safe distance.
[01:02:58] Speaker A: We're trying to handle this as maturely as possible.
[01:03:00] Speaker B: We're being adults about this, but we also just want to make sure we stay consistent with this.
[01:03:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:03:05] Speaker B: What are we talking about next week?
[01:03:07] Speaker A: You know, I haven't even.
[01:03:08] Speaker B: All right, well, let's not even worry about that. How about let's. Let's just wrap it up again. If you have any questions or comments, we would love to hear from you. Thank you again for everybody, for listening to this. Please send any feedback to hi weeklydeepdive.com until next week.
[01:03:24] Speaker A: See ya.
