D&C 27 – 28

[00:00:16] Speaker A: Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the Add On Education Network. The podcast where we explore the weekly Come follow me discussion and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here with my friend and this show's producer, Nate Pifer. [00:00:29] Speaker B: What, as they say, is up. [00:00:33] Speaker A: It's good to be here. Hey, and before we dive into Doctrine and Covenants 2728, as I was remembering, there's a few things I wish I could almost kind of go back and fix or add or whatever the case may be. When we were talking quite a few episodes back, we were talking about the anger of the Lord and comparing his nose like Pinocchio, when he got angry, his nose would get long. I think I said that actually backwards. Usually the longer the nose, the more patient he was and the shorter the nose. Not that it meant much, but it just something that was kind of driving me crazy I wanted to correct. But then also last week we were talking about the washing of the feet, dusting off the feet in the last episode, and there was something significant there that I wanted to hit on that I kind of left out that I thought we would include right here at the start of this one. And when Abraham is waiting out outside of Sabbath and Gora and he has the visitors come, the strangers, to where his tent is, and he rushes and says, fetch the water and the basin and let's wash your feet. And Abraham was a man of wealth, a man of power. Most likely he had servants that would wash his feet. And in the New Testament we see that example when the Savior is washing Peter's feet. And when the Savior washes Peter's feet, Peter is saying, whoa, whoa, this is backwards. I am your servant. If anything, I should be washing your feet. And Christ says, you don't get it. It's not that you're a guest here in my home for this meal that we're having tonight. He says, he clarifies. Jesus tells him, if you want to go into my Father's house, then I must wash your feet. And then Christ tells him that he is the servant. And if we are the greatest in the kingdom is the one that serves. Christ is telling him, I am my father's servant. This is about coming into my Father's house, not about tonight. And he is his father's servant. I thought was kind of interesting. Just a little thing I wanted to slide in there. All right, hold on. [00:02:47] Speaker B: Before we get started too, just want to remind you, if you have questions or comments. We've gotten a couple comments. None of them really have yet anything to do with any of the things we're talking about. But we. Yeah, we would love to hear from you. Hieeklydeepdive.com yeah, absolutely. [00:03:07] Speaker A: We'd love to hear from you. Whether it be about the show or how you found the show, what's going on, how you doing, or just reach out and say something. All right. Doctrine covenants, section 2728. Right off the bat, the Lord. Okay, so I guess let's give us a little bit of context. Joseph Smith just got out of jail. And this is right after the churches has been organized. 1830. Emma Smith was baptized a few weeks back, and she was waiting for Joseph Smith to get out to be able to confirm her. He was charged with treasure hunting, apparently saying that you can find treasure. I guess more kind of a fraud idea that you're telling people that you have this gift for finding treasure and then misleading them into treasure hunting. So treasure hunting, like charges. But he was acquitted of the charges. So it kind of. Kind of weird little deal happening here. But he's acquitted, he's released. So a couple of weeks have gone by and he's coming back and now he's going to confirm Emma a member and confer the gift of the Holy Ghost upon her. And to set up for this occasion, Joseph Smith is on his way to the store to go buy some wine for the sacrament so that they can have the sacrament at the time that they're going to confer the gift of the Holy Ghost to Emma. On his way, he's intercepted by an angel. And it's not just saying any angel or just a person on the street, but it says a heavenly messenger, right? And this heavenly messenger stops him and gives him some advice and says, you know what? Don't buy strong drink or wine from your enemies or. Which sounds like pretty solid advice. If you are buying something that can have an impact on you, such as alcohol, maybe you shouldn't be buying it from your enemies. And the Lord reveals some truth to Joseph Smith that the first thing I wanted to touch on in this is it says it mattereth not what you use for the sacrament if you do it with an eye. Single to my glory. And that's, I think that qualifier right there at the end, if you do it with an I Single to my glory is really the kicker on this, because if you're cracking out a box of Teddy Grahams because you think it's going to be kind of funny or different to kind of mix things up a little bit or get people to chuckle or. You know what it was When I was. When I was a kid, we had a priest that was the bishop's son. I don't know if you ever remember the show Perfect Strangers used to be on tgif. [00:06:07] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. [00:06:08] Speaker A: And you had Balki, right. Kind of his accent. I'm not sure where Balki is even from. [00:06:12] Speaker B: I don't remember. [00:06:13] Speaker A: Now, he would bless the sacrament in his best Balki impersonation. And the bishop was not very happy with him at all. Right. So, yes, you can do things a little bit different. And you don't necessarily need to have bread, you don't necessarily need to have wine. In this case, we learned that instead of wine, it's more than all right to use water. But the kicker is, as long as the reason why you're doing it or what you're doing is if you're still doing it with an eye single to his glory. And we want to make sure when we're doing the sacrament that that is the focus that we're not focusing on, on something else. Right. And you see the deacons, and usually they are all wearing their white shirts and ties. And it is not like it is written anywhere in a hard code. You have to wear this or you have to do it this way. But more than anything, I think the purpose is try to do it in such a way that you are not distracting away from the purpose, that the focus can still be on the Lord. And I think we have even had discussions about this in the past. The idea is, is it our. Is it all right to take the sacrament with your left hand? [00:07:22] Speaker B: Sure. Well, it's. [00:07:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:23] Speaker B: I mean, it is interesting because again, like, I. I even understand why, you know, you know, we're told when we're young, you know what I mean? Like, take it, you know, eat it with the appropriate hand or eat it with the right hand. And it. Again, it's just. It's the idea of, like, be deliberate in what it is that you're doing and focus on, you know what I mean? Like, be. Be paying attention to what it is, why you're taking the sacrament. You know, I mean, it's like there's. There's all kinds of reasons that have to go with it, even if it wasn't necessarily a doctrinal thing. But. But kind of like the Jews all throughout the, you know, New Testament ended up getting so hung up about those types of things that they lost track of all of the other things. You know what I mean? The meanings behind A lot of that stuff. [00:08:07] Speaker A: Exactly. Let's not focus so much on everything else. And really, what's the purpose of what we're doing and how do we make that purpose stand out for us? Yes, perfect. Going into this strong wine that Joseph Smith is told not to purchase, he says, you can kind of make it on your own or provide your own sacrament, but this is something that you probably shouldn't be purchasing from your enemies. Now, the Lord is going to say something that's a little bit interesting here. In verse five, he says, behold, this is wisdom in me. Wherefore marvel not. And when the Lord's saying marvel not, it's like he's saying, try not to be too surprised by this. Like, I don't know. If the Lord's saying marvel not, then it's almost like setting me up for, you're going to be amazed at what I say next. Try not to be too surprised at what I say next. So he says, marvel not for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the Earth and with Moroni. And it's kind of interesting. So now the Lord's going to go through this whole section mentioning all of these buddies, like, hey, I'm going to come here with you on earth in my resurrected body. And I'm not sure if the marvel knot is intended for the fact that he is drinking the fruit of the vine in a resurrected body. The idea that, does God have to eat or does he not eat? Is that what he means by marvel not? Or does he mean marvel not by the fact that he's about to just list a bunch of, I don't know, can you call them a listers in scripture history? [00:09:49] Speaker B: A listers? [00:09:50] Speaker A: I mean, he's dropping these names. I'm going to come with Moroni, I'm going to come with Elijah, I'm going to come with John the Baptist. [00:09:58] Speaker B: These so far are all A listers, I guess. [00:10:03] Speaker A: I don't know. He makes it sound like this fun club of all of these great people that he hangs out with, and he's bringing them here to share a drink with the prophet, is what he's saying. And then he prefaces it with marvel not. And I'm like, wait a second, how can I not marvel? Did the Lord not just say, I. [00:10:21] Speaker B: Mean, it's pretty marvelous. [00:10:23] Speaker A: Yeah, the hour will come when I'm going to come share a few drinks with you guys. [00:10:28] Speaker B: That's awesome. [00:10:29] Speaker A: And what is the Lord's take on drinking? [00:10:35] Speaker B: I mean, this is a Good discussion, I think, to always have and understand the idea behind certain commandments. But, you know, I mean, the word of wisdom is always a really interesting. It's always an interesting one to get various people's, you know, various different takes on, right. [00:10:56] Speaker A: And the word of wisdom, initially, as it's released and it's a revelation, it is a word of wisdom or counsel, Right. It's not really put forth as a commandment. But we believe in modern revelation and we believe in prophets. And for us, it's not something that we have to kind of stew on or wonder or stay confused about because the original context wasn't quite so clear. We have the blessing of having modern prophets to be able to clarify, to be able to amend it or make it more clear to our eyes as we look at it. And I think there's a lot of wisdom in the prophets and how they've clarified. Don't drink at all. We've kind of come through this evolution of the church or this time where they were drinking wine for the sacrament or they were making their own wine, or there were acceptable times to do it to where they say, you know what? In fact, I think it says it even better in Doctrine and covenants, section 89, when it prefaces it. Due to the cunning of men and some of the things that are going to come, not necessarily right now, but because of the future, because of what is going to happen, it is a good idea that we cut this out now. There is a difference, I think, between what they were doing then and the spirits and alcohol and how we use those in our time today. [00:12:19] Speaker B: I do kind of want to just bring up something that we've even talked about before, because again, like, I know that. I know that it's kind of like a fun, common thing to say, like, oh, there's. There was. There was just grape juice that, that Jesus was drinking and not wine. And I've always been like, oh, okay, I guess. I guess maybe that makes sense. But I don't know. What's your take on that? Was it just grape juice or. [00:12:40] Speaker A: That's a great question. And I honestly, in all cases, I think it's impossible to say, but I would say there is clear evidence that it wasn't just grape juice. Not to say that grape juice wasn't called wine, because we do have instances where grape juice, when it's prepared, if they boiled it before they prepared it, they could preserve it without it fermenting, or if it did ferment, they could take the wine and they could boil the alcohol out of it and still drink the wine without having that intoxicating effect. That being said, there is clear evidence in the scriptures when you talk about the Nephites delivering strong drink to the Lamanites, they didn't give it to them as a gift, saying, hey, we are giving this to you because we know you like strong drink. They are saying, hey, I stole this from the Nephites. This is their drink. And Lamanites, if they knew it was liquor, well, let me say it this way. If they knew it came from the Nephites and they knew the Nephites didn't drink, they would have no reason to suspect that this was good liquor when they got it right. And you look at the return exchange when the Lamanites would send alcohol back to the Nephites, the Nephites would have it tested first. You don't have it tested if you're just going to pour it down the drain and not drink it. You have it tested because you plan on ingesting it or drinking it. And you see, there's plenty of instances or cases when wine, as much as you want to try to explain it away or describe it differently, wine has been ingested in the Old Testament, in the New Testament. [00:14:18] Speaker B: I think that it's not that hard to understand why. It probably wasn't as big of an issue throughout the history of time as it would be in the modern day that we live in. Maybe even more so than Joseph Smith's time, too, you know, when the word of wisdom was given. Because again, at the time, like you said, a lot of that was given with wisdom towards the future, like, kind of with an eye towards the future and Joseph Smith's time, you didn't have people getting plastered and driving cars around, you know, and crashing, you know, into people also driving or things like that. You know, I mean, it's like there's so many. There's so many other dangers with it and, and kind of like you've mentioned in the past, too, it's like the, the era that we live in right now is such a time of, like, excess that, you know, and, and again, like, I mean, you probably be able to explain it better than me, but it just seems like it seems like when the council was given early on, it was very much more looking forward to the time that we live in and the problems that any sort of substance abuse, you know, have on families and individuals. [00:15:38] Speaker A: Yeah, great points. My daughter right now, she's got her learner's permit, and so my wife and I are trying to take time and teach her how to drive and spend the time behind the wheel with her. And I pulled all of my kids together and I said, look, I'm quite a bit bigger than all my kids by like £100. It's sad, but I tell them, imagine if I were to run as fast as I could and just hit you as hard as I could. How would that feel? Right? What if instead of me, I were to grab a piece of metal that weighed 2,000 pounds and then faster than I could run, just threw them and hit him with that like a missile, right? What kind of damage would that do? And they're like, oh man, that would be devastating. Right? You know, we're in the time of superheroes and you think and imagine these big old rocks or steel coming and hitting you and they think it's kind of fantastic or, you know, just wild and crazy. But then I say, okay, now think about that. That's what happens when you're behind the wheel of those vehicles. You're operating this vehicle, this steel, and you're many times going faster than what a person can run and carrying all that weight behind you. It doesn't take much. You turn and you hit somebody or you hit something or you hit, you know, you can do some serious damage pretty quick. And I don't think they had that kind of responsibility at their hands for one little mess up could create so much damage. Doing it intoxicated like we can now, and taking it a little bit out of, a little bit more into our modern times, I guess to kind of interpret it and look at it differently. The US government says that alcohol is the most common drug used among adults in the US And I thought that was interesting that they would call alcohol a drug. And usually we kind of associate drugs as one thing. Drugs and alcohol, we group them together. But for them to actually call it a mind altering or a drug, I thought put that a little bit in perspective. For me, it's linked with disorders in young adults as they're developing. If they drink as youth, it causes issues that way. Obviously you've got problems with society, broken homes, violence. According to Harvard, alcohol plays a role in one out of three violent crimes and the cost of society. The cost on society of alcohol abuse totals $249 billion a year and takes 10,000 lives every year from alcohol related car accidents. So the cost of alcohol on society in my mind far outweighs any small benefit we get. I mean, if it means finding a different way to divert with your friends or to pass time. And that would get me 10,000 more lives or a lot less broken homes or domestic disputes or fewer deaths and car accidents. I can see the wisdom of the Lord in saying, you know what? Let's try to nip this and get ahead of it and say, let's just do what we can to eliminate these problems. [00:18:57] Speaker B: Cool. [00:18:58] Speaker A: Yeah. And if I. I'm sorry, let me say this. I thought this was fascinating. Last year, the insurance from all over the United States, they get together and they talk about the accidents and the safest drivers. And when I think of Utah drivers, I don't typically of us as the safest drivers, but Utah ranked number one as the safest place to drive. Yeah, number one in the United States for safest place to drive. And driving around these roads in Utah, I cannot imagine it's because people are actually that safe. I have to attribute that to the fact that I don't think we have as many people. We're driving a lot more sober. [00:19:40] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. Honestly, Utah has the worst drivers driven in a lot of places. Man, they're terrible. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. I mean, the fact that they're sober makes it even more inexcusable, actually. Terrible. [00:19:56] Speaker A: Well, and there's been. There's been some interesting studies talking about even regular use of alcohol in moderation. I mean, even. Even a single cup a day. And for a long time, that's been touted as something for. For the benefit of health, for heart health. And now they're looking at it a little bit more critically. There's a couple articles published in the scientific journals last year that even as few as one glass of wine a day could cause some arterial fibrillation, some problems with the heart that they hadn't noticed before. So it's some interesting advice out there, and I don't want to spend too much time talking on that. [00:20:34] Speaker B: We can move on. [00:20:35] Speaker A: But I would say this. When we talk about Christ coming and he says, marvel not that I say this. And starting out, I kind of put this in this light. Well, I would marvel if he's saying that he's coming here just to drink with a bunch of buddies, but I don't know that that's the case. And when he says, marvel not about this. This is in context of the sacrament. When Joseph Smith is getting the wine together to bring this back in, he is coming to participate in the sacrament, and he says, do not marvel if I start coming and joining in the sacrament with you. The hour is soon at hand. And who knows, in the salt Lake Temple and the Holy of Holies. You have got Thursdays dedicated to the quorum of the 12 getting together. And they have the sacrament, maybe we have visitors that come and spend time with it. And that is something that is not. Not discussed or we don't know, who knows, right? But maybe the Lord in context of sacrament, bringing us together, not so much in context of having a wild time, but in the wisdom of the Lord, there is a way that makes this work. [00:21:47] Speaker B: Awesome. [00:21:47] Speaker A: Okay. Clothed in the armor of God. Towards the end here we talk about putting on, girding up your loins and putting on the breastplate and the shield and the sword. And this is something that we've talked about a long time, even in Primary, and we have the mock ups and the displays. And as I was reading this, I kind of thought about this a little bit differently. When they're talking about girding up the loins, and first you have to wonder, what in the world are loins to begin with? It's not something we commonly use. I'm not going anywhere crazy with this. Just wrapping it around your waist, honestly. And then. And then the breastplate, you're wrapping that around you, and the helmet, you're encasing and wrapping. And I'm just seeing this, this idea of clothing or wrapping. And I can't help but think of the Garden of Eden when they sin and they find themselves naked, and then the Lord clothes them by wrapping them up with these coats of skin. And this idea that's perpetuated in the New Testament, that we're clothed in mortality, but when we die, we'll be clothed upon. Our spirits will be clothed again and clothed upon with this immortality and this idea that the Lord is clothing us with salvation, with righteousness, with truth. And I keep thinking of this image of clothed versus not clothed and how you feel this idea of vulnerability and exposed, this nakedness. No, nobody wants to. Yeah. I don't know. Do you ever have those dreams? You stand up in front of people, you go to work and you realize you're wearing your underwear. Or even worse, nothing at all. [00:23:28] Speaker B: I always have dreams where my teeth are falling out. [00:23:30] Speaker A: Oh, those are, Those are bad dreams too. [00:23:32] Speaker B: I know. I'm never naked in those. All my teeth just fall out. Though. I think I'd rather have dreams where I'm just naked walking around. [00:23:37] Speaker A: Those aren't comfortable dreams. I don't know. [00:23:40] Speaker B: Whatever. [00:23:40] Speaker A: Not everyone has them. But. But it is this idea that you're, you're. You're unprepared or you're exposed and you feel embarrassed, you feel shame, you feel. And it's really what sin's doing. I mean, you make that comparison with the Garden of Eden. You take of the fruit, and now all of a sudden you feel exposed. You did something that you know you're going to have to account for. And it's uncomfortable to stand in front of people. And given that accounting, when you're naked, when you're not, you. You're laid out there and armor is doing the same thing. If you go to war, I mean, can you imagine, you don't know what your chances of survival are. You're going to go rush this other army and you're going to be fighting. How confident would you feel? If you look around and everyone around you has swords, chest, plates, shields, helmets, and then look at the enemy line and they all have the same thing. And then you're standing there in just your regular cloth, right? You're like, this is not going to go well for me. So this idea that the Lord is clothing us with these things, the salvation, his truth, his word, these things, the gospel of peace, they are preparing us, strengthening us, and helping us feel less vulnerable and less exposed. All right, let's move to doctrine covenants, section 28. This section is addressed to Oliver Cowdery. And there are some issues that the Lord's. Well, the Lord and Joseph Smith kind of have with Oliver Cowdery and some of the things that he's been bringing up. It's about Hiram Page, but it's more actually getting to what's going on with Oliver Cowdery. So let's start Hiram Page, he's one of the eight witnesses. And at this time, early on, he marries one of the Whitmer sisters, one of the Whitmer girls. And he's got a stone that he found, a black stone that he looks in and it gives him revelations, and he's able to look into it, and he starts giving these revelations about where Zion is going to be built or how Zion is going to be built. The specific revelations themselves were not preserved. We don't know exactly what he was saying, but Oliver Cowdery was buying into it and he believed it. And so he was starting to teach Hyrum Page's revelations and get behind them. And this was a little bit confusing at the time and a little bit disconcerting for Joseph Smith at the early days of the church to try to figure out what the Lord has in mind. Or is this how the Lord works? He calls several different prophets and just Keeps inspiring everybody in this way. So Joseph Smith takes it to the Lord, receives this revelation, kind of correcting the course and saying there is one prophet that receives revelation for the church, and then he brings it to the church, and by common consent, everybody sustains him as the prophet and revelator for the church, and that he is the only one that should be getting that direction and guiding the church. Hyrum Page takes it really well. He destroys the stone, gets rid of the stone, he falls in line and says, okay, I'm on board. I'm okay with that. If the Lord says that that's from the devil, then I'm going to let it go and I'm not going to have anything else to do with it. And the Lord commands Oliver particularly to address this with Hyrum Page and to kind of resolve the issue here. But part of the underlying issue is that again, this happens 1830, not too long after the church is restored. In Doctrine and covenants, section 20, verse 37, we talked about that not too long ago, it says, if you're going to be baptized into the church, that you must bring your works to manifest by your works that you have repented, that you've received that remission of your sins. And Oliver Cowdery wrote a letter to Joseph Smith saying that there was an error in the text. He says, this is wrong. If you are telling people they have to manifest by their works that they have received this, this is going to introduce priestcraft into the church. And in the letter, Oliver Cowdery even goes as far as to say, I command you in the name of the Lord to fix it. So who's commanding who and how does this work? And this is really the heart of this issue, is Joseph Smith is dealing with Hyrum Page as he's dealing with Oliver Cowdery, and he's trying to get a handle on things and fix it. And ultimately, here he is, he's turning to the Lord, and the Lord is kind of setting the record straight. And in the discussion, I mean, Joseph Smith saying, yeah, if this was me that was writing it, sure, let's have that debate and let's talk about it. But I can't change the words because they're God's words, not my words. And as you look at it, clearly, it's not pushing priestcraft. And I don't know, we've said this a few times. But as President Monson said over and over again, the wisdom of God sometimes appears as foolishness to man. But the single greatest lesson we can Learn is that when God speaks and a man listens, that man will always be right. And in this case, God spoke. And sometimes we look at it and it is so easy to try to dismiss it or say, no, they screwed up, they messed up, because we see it differently. But we got to stop and realize, are we challenging the Lord or who are we challenging? What are we challenging? And do we fully understand what's going on here? All right. Any last thoughts on the subject? Nate. [00:29:16] Speaker B: I think you covered that about as thoroughly as it could be for what we are doing. [00:29:21] Speaker A: Sweet. I just. I find. I find it kind of nice how the way he says, speak not by. Or. Well, right. Not by way of commandment, but by wisdom. If you're not the one that's receiving commandments for the church, maybe don't be sitting there writing out, this is what we have to do. This is what we have to do. But use your wisdom in interpreting the commandments the Lord has already given. [00:29:45] Speaker B: I do that, actually. That is. That is actually something. I mean, if. I think we still have a little bit of time. I had a conversation with somebody in an old ward of mine about the idea that, what would you do if somebody basically came forward and saying, okay, well, God now came to me and said, you know, I am going to. The church has gone astray, and I need to. I'm the one that's going to be taking over from here. It's kind of like a weird question. And I thought to myself, like, you know, what would I do? Would I just be able to just with a blanket, say, nope, can't possibly be true. Would I welcome it as, like, cool, you know, God has spoken to people. I believe God has spoken to people. So I'm just going to accept it and also. And then just go along with it, you know? And I think where I came out is like, no, I don't think I would do either of those things. Right. I think that there is something to be said for. Well, you know, I believe that that's just not the process of things. And we've also been told, though, that it's, like, cool. Pray about it. You know what I mean? Like, cool ask. Like, there's. [00:30:54] Speaker A: What. [00:30:54] Speaker B: What. What harm does it do to say, is there any truth to what I'm hearing about this? And we believe that. That God would give us an answer to that. And I could only assume, especially if, you know, if this person was, you know, pulling people with him, that it would be something that, you know, I'm sure God would want to tell us, you know, what's going on in that case, you know, even though I think, I think my answer would be, I would be skeptical. So when I hear, you know, stories like this, I think this is at a time where people don't know that process, you know, or not, not, not know, but aren't as familiar and as confident in the process. Right. And what a way for Satan to be able to kind of like, try to creep his way in to go cool. Joseph Smith is receiving revelation through seer stones. Why don't I try to find somebody else who is at least sincere, you know what I mean? And try to try to kind of deceive that person in a similar way that true revelation is being given to man at the time. Right. And so, you know, I think, I think the things that I at least pull from that is like, cool. Satan is sneaky and is very good at trying to deceive people in ways that otherwise would potentially look righteous, you know, and then at the same time, it's also a good lesson in just the process of things like, yes, we receive revelation for ourselves. Yes, we receive revelation for our families, specific callings. We are entitled to receive revelations for those that we are stewards over. And, and now that we have, you know, decades worth of being able to look at the process of this, it's a lot easier for us to know, like, okay, don't be deceived by, you know, people claiming to be receiving revelation for, you know, people that they shouldn't be receiving revelation for, I guess. [00:32:59] Speaker A: Right. And when they say in conference, how do they put it? Doubt your doubts before you. You know, it's okay to question, but maybe begin by questioning your questions and try to wonder and honestly, fair. [00:33:13] Speaker B: You know what I mean? The thing is, I agree with you. The doubt your doubts thing can sometimes, I think, come across as kind of like dismissive. And I always feel bad when it does come across as dismissive because. [00:33:27] Speaker A: There. [00:33:28] Speaker B: Are things that I have questions about, you know, there are things that a lot of people that are sincere have, have real questions about. Right. And for me, it's, it's. I guess I wish it was as easy as just like, you know, but, but again, I don't think that Elder Uchtdorf was saying only doubt your doubts, but I think the idea was just be fair, you know. [00:33:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:50] Speaker B: You know, be fair with your doubts and also, and also be fair with the things that you have been taught and have and have been given a reason to believe over time. You know, give, give fairness Give equal, Give equal attention, you know, to both. At least you know, be, be as critical with your doubts as you are with your faith. [00:34:12] Speaker A: That's a good point. And I don't know that you can be a true convert of, of Christ and turn to him without having questions. [00:34:21] Speaker B: I mean, I hope, I hope that then that. Because I hope then that means that we're doing it. Right. Right. I hope that that's the case. Because again, like, if it truly is like a constant process of continually becoming converted and reconverted, it's like, is why I love having these discussions and I love doing these things is because it is this. It doesn't ever feel like a finish line to me, at least in this life. [00:34:45] Speaker A: Right. To me, I look at it. The verse asking you shall receive, seeking you shall find is repeated so many times in the Scriptures. Why would you ever ask if you did not have a question to begin with? Sometimes I wonder if the Lord is not intentionally vague or intentionally confusing just to kind of leave it on the line for us as a conversation starter, like, where do we go to the Lord? Where do we pray most? If it is not when we need something or we have a question about something, and when he puts something out there on the line and gives us that opportunity to ask him and come to him, that is what builds the relationship. If you didn't have those questions, if you didn't have that crisis, if you weren't pouring out your heart trying to get to know him, at what other point do you feel like you're exposing your soul to him and he is reaching out and helping you understand Him a little bit better? So you're absolutely right. And Satan does want to take advantage of that. I mean, when you're talking about a church that pushes personal revelation and the idea that not just a prophet, but everybody is entitled to communicate with God and not only is entitled to, but encouraged to go and seek that inspiration, that revelation. How do you draw that line? Particularly when the devil comes and appears as an angel of light. [00:36:08] Speaker B: Exactly. And to that point, I guess the thing is, I think, I think this is where we have to be careful and, and, and kind of like you're saying and kind of like the, the bigger point of the doubt, your doubts thing, again, like that, that line specifically sometimes feels a little dismissive for me. But, but there's, there's something amazing in that line which is also going like, maybe not, maybe not. It's not doubt your doubts, but know yourself, like know, know your weaknesses, know where you tend to have skepticism, know where you tend to have, you know what I mean? Like know, know your weaknesses. Right? Because in theory, like, if we, if we know our weaknesses, you can only imagine, you know, the devil has spent, you know, generations of time learning them too. And for some people, their weakness might be. I see, I see a problem in how the church handles blank. Therefore, that's an easy target for the adversary to come and say, I'm going to help you receive some personal revelation that actually applies to everybody that just happens to be about maybe something that you disagree with culturally in the church or that you disagree with doctrinally in church. Right. Because, because again, it's still attacking a weakness, but it's coming from a place of, well, I'm, I want, my heart is in the right place in theory. Right. I want the best for, you know, everybody, even if it means going about it the wrong way or go. You know what I mean? It's like, look at the people that again, you know, were coming after Joseph Smith his whole life. I mean, how many of them were ex members of the church and how. [00:37:52] Speaker A: Many of them honestly thought they were doing the world a favor or trying to push something to make things better, thought they were doing the Lord's errand. [00:38:01] Speaker B: They were convinced that Joseph Smith was a fraud. And therefore, even if they had to lie a little bit or had to kind of do some, you know, some things that they knew probably were morally incorrect, it was for the bigger good, it was for the greater good. And that was to prove to the world that Joseph Smith was a fraud. Right? [00:38:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:19] Speaker B: So again, it's just like there's something that, that to me is the, that to me is maybe one of the greater points of that whole thing, which is just like be self aware enough to know where your weaknesses are and know that that's where you're going to get attacked. Like, that's where the adversary is going to come. And for people like me, who admittedly pride is definitely a weak spot in certain things, it's sometimes hard not to go. Well, if I were in charge, you know, if I were in charge, if I were in charge, I'd do that better. If I were in charge, you wouldn't have 17 little kids every fast and testimony meeting repeating the same things over and over. Because that's kind of creepy and it feels a little brainwashy. Right? Like, if I were in charge, you know what I mean? It's like, it's. And so. But the thing is like, cool. Yeah, that's. That is a me Problem. Right. And even if I could cite you like, well, we. You. We've been told not to do this over and over and over. Clearly it's not a big enough problem that, you know that people are getting excommunicated for it. Right. But I think I'm just saying, like, that's, it's like, what an appealing thing to maybe for somebody to receive revelation from an angel of light that says the church has gone astray because they let all of these little kids get up every fast and testimony meeting, and deep down you know it's true. And I'm now going to give you the right revelation and you need to go out there and start bringing people along with you. Right. [00:39:44] Speaker A: And unfortunately, Oliver Cowdery and Hiram Page, both guys mentioned in here, do end up following a different prophet because they believe that Joseph Smith did fall as a prophet, kind of take that and go the other direction. Although Oliver Cowdery did return and Hyrum Page never denied the witness that he had until he died about the Book of Mormon. But if I look at this scripture and not looking past at what happens later on in their lives, I would say the biggest hero here in my mind is Hyrum Page. Even though he was deceived or even though he's the one that was anxious trying to do the right thing and he thought he was doing the right thing, rather than defend this and say, no, I'm right and pull away. He had the strength and humility to realize when he was wrong, even when he was convinced he was right, and to be able to be humble enough to put the rock down and to follow the prophet, at least at this time. And when we have those doubts and when we come to the Lord, I guess what I'm trying to say is there's no problem with having that doubt. There was no problem with Hyrum trying to do what's right. But what made this excellent is how he handled it and the idea that he was willing to accept that he was wrong even when he thought he was right to have that humility. [00:41:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, that's a big deal. That's hard. [00:41:12] Speaker A: Yeah, it's super hard. [00:41:15] Speaker B: Well, I hope that I didn't take us off into too much of a tangent, but I don't know. I think some of these verses kind of speak to me a little bit on those. On at least some of those levels. So what are we talking about next week? [00:41:29] Speaker A: Next week is Doctrine and Covenants, Section 29. It's kind of a long section talking into the all sorts of fun things. [00:41:36] Speaker B: All sorts of fun things. I can't wait for that. [00:41:39] Speaker A: I'll leave you on that cliffhanger. [00:41:40] Speaker B: All right. Until next week. [00:41:42] Speaker A: See ya.