2 Nephi 31 - 33

[00:00:15] Speaker A: Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the Add add on Education network podcast, where we take a look at the weekly come follow me discussions and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here in the studio with our friend and this show's Nate pyfer. [00:00:32] Speaker B: Yes. Yes, I'm here. I am your friend. And I'm everyone's friend. [00:00:37] Speaker A: Dang it. [00:00:41] Speaker B: Can you imagine if I was just everyone's friend? I'm way too grumpy to be everyone's friend. Maybe that's something I need to work on. [00:00:51] Speaker A: Maybe it's your grumpiness that makes them your friend. They just know how everyone needs a grumpy friend. [00:00:57] Speaker B: It's not that I'm grumpy that should actually stoke you. It's the fact that I'm not going to pretend to be something I'm not. There it is. [00:01:08] Speaker A: There it is. [00:01:08] Speaker B: But if you're listening to the show, you are my friend. [00:01:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Thanks for listening, guys. Thanks for your comments, feedback, and listening. Taking the time. I know it's not easy to go through an hour of us discussing things, but on top, we appreciate the other. [00:01:23] Speaker B: Podcasts that you listen to, which is good. It's good to probably counterbalance our shenanigans with somebody that's actually trying to uplift your day. [00:01:32] Speaker A: I don't know, something grounded. [00:01:34] Speaker B: Something grounded. We're trying to be uplifting as well. [00:01:37] Speaker A: But we journey. Thanks for being with us on the journey. [00:01:40] Speaker B: Thanks for being with us on the journey, including all of the shenanigans and hygienes. [00:01:44] Speaker A: And boy, do we have a journey for you tonight. In fact, I was kind of halfway hoping as we were talking about greatest moments of the show for any of you who are new listening to the show, and you've missed some of our episodes in the past. One of my top favorite moments in this podcast was when we got to the begatting chapter in Genesis. And Nate had been building this up all throughout doctrine, covenants about the begatz being his favorite part of the scriptures. And we got there and he had a special episode planned for me, and it began the final countdown. I was kind of hoping we could hit this one off that way because I feel like tonight's discussion, or whatever time of day you're listening on this, on, we've been kind of building this up a little bit. This is second Nephi, chapters 31 through 33. And Nephi begins it with the story of Christ being baptized and why Christ was baptized and what baptism means and why we should follow his example and be baptized. And that's something as we've been covering this in the New Testament, and we talked about baptism and Christ's baptism and some of our perspective and some of our pushback on that, we've received a little bit of pushback as well. And it started us on a journey of trying to discuss and look at this to maybe understand it better and to maybe even frame this a little bit from my personal perspective. I remember years back I was asked to give a talk on baptism. And at the time, it was probably soon after my mission, around my mission time, I remember being initially disappointed, like baptism. What can I say about baptism? Everyone knows what baptism is. You go to the water, you're put under the water, you pulled out, you make a covenant, and that's baptism. And I'm like, how am I going to give 15 minutes of talking and helping people see something new about something that everyone already understands? That was my initial reaction. And as I began studying baptism way back then, I realized that there was a lot more to it that I didn't understand and something that was the first principles and ordinances of our gospel that we teach from a primary age and that we grow up talking about and so easy a child can do. It really has a lot more depth and profoundness to it and that there really is, for lack of a better way of saying it, maybe just gold in what this is, the symbolism, what it means, what it can mean, the layers, like layers of an onion that we can understand what baptism is. And that's something I learned early on. And even now, later, as Nate and I have been talking about this and going back and forth and looking at this idea, we've been promising you, the listeners, a bonus episode on ordinances and covenants, really starting and rooting itself in baptism. And so as we got to this section where Christ is baptized, as revisited by Nephi, I looked at this as a great opportunity to hopefully get a lot of our thoughts hashed out a little bit more clearly for you guys at home to maybe not point anything definitive, but to ask you questions, to provide you with different perspectives and to leave it open ended for you to try to maybe understand something that is looked at so simply, so one dimensional and see the different layers of kind of enjoy this journey that we've been on with this as well. [00:05:34] Speaker B: Yeah, eventually I do think we will still be able to put together kind of a wrap up or put a bow on a lot of these thoughts. But really, the initial thing started out with me pushing back against the idea that it's doctrine that by taking the sacrament, you're renewing baptismal covenants. Which, by the way, sorry for any of you out there that thought you would ever change my mind on this. The research that I have put into this, my heels are dug in at this point, I'm afraid. We wanted to do a whole podcast on trying to understand all of the reasons what the baptismal covenant is or isn't or what the sacrament covenant is or isn't and all those things, because the more we went down the road, it's just like the more intense of like, okay, well, to understand this, though, you really have to understand this. And so I guess we would have to maybe do like a two part bonus episode thing. And then when we started talking about just the baptismal side, we're like, oh, my goodness, that's a whole episode. It was almost the weight of all of these different things. We're just like, man, well, then we've got to really kind of research this out before we can get to it. Tonight's opportunity is more than anything, we're going to start laying the groundwork for the bigger conversation, which I think is going to be a lot easier to have once we kind of talk through and discuss and not debate, but definitely have a little back and forth on some ideas of what baptism really is. Isn't how we understand it, how we misunderstand it, possibly because all of this is crucial into understanding the bigger picture discussion of, for me at least, what it started out as. Well, then if baptism isn't something that needs to necessarily be renewed all the time, well, then what would the sacrament be? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, which we can still have that discussion later. I just think that this is an awesome opportunity to really start laying the groundwork in little mini kind of sections or discussions, and we by no means are going to claim that this is going to be any sort of, like, the definitive breakdown on what baptism is. But we have been preparing for this for quite some time to have this discussion, I guess, is all I'm saying. [00:08:05] Speaker A: Yeah, hopefully our thoughts actually make it out in a coherent way. It is something that has been living in our minds for a long time now, and this is kind of a first swing at making that make sense, hopefully to the ears of a lot of you listeners. And like you say, Nate, the groundwork of maybe more discussions down the road. [00:08:24] Speaker B: Yep, go ahead. Just before we dig into scriptures, I would like to just read a quote from elder Renlin before we start this from last conference, though, but that's when we're ready to dig in. [00:08:36] Speaker A: Let me ask you then one question before we get to Renlin's quote, and then I'll turn it over to you on that. As we are having these discussions and as native, I have been going down this road and looking at the ordinances, looking at baptism, the confirmation, the sacrament, and even spilling into temple ordinances, very. [00:08:58] Speaker B: Much washing and cleaning and very much spilling into temple ordinances. [00:09:02] Speaker A: We have talked back and forth about potentially doing, and if you want to stop me or pull this out, by all means. But we've been talking about potentially doing a live event with listeners to pull us all together in a room where we can have this discussion, where we can come in and Nate and I can maybe lay some of this down, have some visuals and kind of explain to draw whatever right and leave it open for questions and answers so that it's not just us talking to you, but actually a live discussion and organic and being able to give you guys a voice to be able to participate with us in a setting where we're all sitting down together. [00:09:49] Speaker B: Would there be refreshments? [00:09:51] Speaker A: I would hope so. Right? I would hope so. [00:09:52] Speaker B: Then I'll come. Because if not, I'm not coming. [00:09:55] Speaker A: That's the ticket for anything. [00:09:58] Speaker B: That's what we do in this church, bro. [00:10:00] Speaker A: Yeah. I feel like a lot of you guys have gotten to know us through listening to our podcast, and we have not, unfortunately, been able to get to know you as. So you can call it to get to know us as you can come and ask us questions. But really, I think from Nate and I's perspective this selfishly more for us to get to know you, our listeners get to hear from you and get to provide you with something in person. Is that something that would interest you? Would there be enough interest in our listeners to pull something like that together here? I would say within the next couple of months, honestly, because we've got some big changes coming down the road that we're trying to plan for and account for as well. [00:10:42] Speaker B: Yeah, this all sounds like a lot to me, but I guess if the response somehow is overwhelming and you feel like you need to do that, my thing is that regardless of whether we do that or not, we do know that this is a subject that there are a lot of also very deep rooted opinions and thoughts on. And so regardless of whether that's something that we could, I think that the reason really kind of for me behind having that idea was a little bit quicker of a back and forth response with a lot of these topics because it's just a lot easier to communicate those things. But functionally, that might be hard. But if you do want to be part of the conversation, as always, our email address is [email protected] as we get into this tonight, I have no doubt that there will be some thoughts that you have on your end, and if you would like to share them with us, we would be happy to read them. [00:11:40] Speaker A: All right, let's hear from Renlin. [00:11:43] Speaker B: This is from his conference talk. Do you have October 2023 do you. [00:11:48] Speaker A: Have the Gen Z translation of it? [00:11:50] Speaker B: Dang it, where is my Gen Z? Oh, here it is. Gen Z. Well, I don't have thanks for reminding me to have my handy. The Book of Mormon for Gen Z unofficial chat GPT translation for Gen Z by Bros. Of Smith thank you for making sure that I have that sitting next to me for when we get into this later. No, this is actually just a direct quote from an apostle of Christ. My bad. October 2023. And I quote. As an eight year old, I had mistakenly presumed that the water of baptism washed away sins. Period. Not so, period. In the years since my baptism, I have learned that sins are cleansed by the power of Jesus Christ through his atoning sacrifice. As we make and keep the baptismal covenant, then through the gift of repentance, we can remain clean. I have also learned that the sacrament brings a powerful, virtuous cycle into our lives, enabling us to retain a remission of our sins. Well stated, well stated. Just wanted to preface all of the rest of our discussion with what one of our general authorities had to say about that. [00:13:05] Speaker A: And I think that gives us a good starting point on this. I think the question is often asked. I mean, it's even put right here in the scriptures that we're reading, and that's why we're bringing this up tonight. If Christ didn't need baptism for the remission of sins, then why was he baptized if it wasn't for forgiveness of his sins? And Nephi puts it different, right? He doesn't say remission of sins. If Christ, being perfect has no need, then how much greater is the need for us who are imperfect? And it's a good statement. But think about that in terms of the baptism that we do versus the baptism of Christ. You can say that Christ had no sins because he was perfect and didn't need baptism. But by the same argument that the children that are being baptized, what sins do they have? Aren't they falling into the same boat that Christ is when you say it's for the remission of sins, what sins does a child have? Because we read very clearly in Mormon chapter eight that children don't have sins, and if they die, they're saved. [00:14:20] Speaker B: Or if they do, I guess if they are imperfect, which they are, they're not accountable for their sins. I think that that's probably a better way to state that. [00:14:28] Speaker A: Right. Well, and I guess we'd have to get into the definition of sins, because I really want to pull in a lot of legal. I think God does legal very well. He's the lawgiver and he talks to Moses. Right. When part of what makes something a sin, if you will, is. What's the word I'm looking for on this? [00:14:54] Speaker B: Knowing what it is that you're doing wrong, having an understanding about what it is you're breaking. I don't know. What are you thinking? [00:15:00] Speaker A: Yeah. When you look at people who plead not guilty by reason of insanity. [00:15:08] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Under eight kids are definitely insane. I can testify to this. Usually over eight they are too, but whatever. [00:15:18] Speaker A: Not exactly what I meant, but fair point. The idea that there has to be some level of awareness that you are committing something, that you're doing some level of ownership or liability, that intention. Right. If you can prove intent, even when you get into some sins, whether you get it to negligence and you have to prove gross negligence or some of the terms that you put in this by reason of the reasonable man, what would a reasonable person do in this situation is going to be used as a metric for deciding what they should have done or not should have done. What was the reasonable person rule, if you will? There's this idea of awareness, and we look at children who have not developed that same sense of awareness to be culpable. So we want to get into the criminal definition of some of these things. We start getting into the law. What sense of awareness do they have of what they are doing and the consequences, and what level of intent are they trying to do this that plays into the conversation and you even look at it, what laws are there against children that actually hold them liable where a lot of the times under the age of 18, the parents are liable for what a child is doing, which is, I think, the same thing we see in the kingdom of God? So we go back to this discussion. If we say that children, by reason of insanity, not by reason of insanity, but by reason of not having that maturity, that sense of awareness, or that consciousness or that thought, are not held liable, then why then are we baptizing them. And we say it's the remission of sins. And this is something that Nate and I have been kind of pushing back on. What sins does a child have? Is it not the same as Christ? So if baptism is not. And can we say that baptism is not for the remission of sins? I don't think so. We believe our. Let's go to our articles of faith, Nate, the fourth article of faith. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the gospel are, first, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Second, repentance. Third, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins. [00:17:50] Speaker B: But the wording of that is important. [00:17:52] Speaker A: But it is. [00:17:53] Speaker B: Continue. Because I don't know if this is where you're going with it, but I have thoughts on this. But continue. [00:17:59] Speaker A: Well, I just want to take that verbiage, that language, and I think that's where some of the confusion comes from. [00:18:07] Speaker B: Agreed. [00:18:07] Speaker A: Because we take it and say, okay, baptism is for the remission of sins. But what does it mean by, I think the word for is where we need to go with this. That's right. Because if we say, oh, we need it because we have to wash away the sins that they have, then I think we've misunderstood what that word means. [00:18:29] Speaker B: Agreed. [00:18:30] Speaker A: Because what sins do they have? Like Christ, who was a perfect man, we look at these children as innocent, not culpable under the law. So then if we say that it's not for the remission of their sins, how do we explain the article of faith that says it is for the remission of sins? And I think we have to answer that question in order to have that healthy discussion. And so Nate and I, I think we're on the same page on this when we talk about for the remission of sins in order that we might, down the road, correct that baptism is the beginning of a path. And so where we push back is the idea that, oh, this is the cleanest member of our church because they have been recently washed from all of their sins. And when little Johnny goes and says something wrong or does something he shouldn't do, guess what? You can partake of the sacrament and you can be washed clean again. [00:19:40] Speaker B: Baptized every week. [00:19:41] Speaker A: That's it. Every week is another baptism, another chance to wash away all of the sins. If we look at baptism in that sense that it is for the remission of all the sins committed previous, I feel like we've misunderstood it. [00:19:56] Speaker B: Well, this is where elder Renland was really. [00:19:58] Speaker A: That's where Renlin nails. [00:19:59] Speaker B: It nails. This is because he's going, well, then why wouldn't you just wait till right before you die, have somebody drag you out of the wheelchair, dunk you real quick, confirm you're a member of the church real quick, and then it's like, cool. Well, now, this is the newest, cleanest member of our church. Everybody look at old Johnny. You know what I mean? That's on his deathbed. Because in theory, then it would make sense to do that. Then it would make sense just to wait till. If you could find a way to wait till the last possible minute, go through that process, physically, go through that physical process, hurry and get baptized, and then you're like, cool. Now I'm good to go. [00:20:40] Speaker A: And I hope we can highlight what we see as fallacy in that. What I think the gospel sees as fallacy in that. If that's the case, then as a father, as I'm baptizing my child and as I push them under the water and bring them back up, and there they are, perfectly clean, if I really thought that that was the purest and cleanest that they would ever be, then as a father, wouldn't it be great for me to sacrifice my own soul by just pushing them back under the water a second time? Seriously, though, and just holding them down there? And you know what? [00:21:14] Speaker B: I have guaranteed themselves? [00:21:15] Speaker A: I have saved their life at the expense of my known. That is the greatest sacrifice I, as a dad, can do. [00:21:21] Speaker B: Obviously, that sounds blasphemous when you hear us say that and we agree. [00:21:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I feel like that's the road that. That will take you down. If you look at it like that, it becomes dangerous. That's the fallacy in this. I would be doing my kids a favor if I killed them before they turned eight, because then they're not culpable. Then that's not how this game is played. And by the same side, I can't help you, because, you know what? It's Tuesday or Wednesday, and it's been a couple of days since I've taken the sacrament, and I have journeyed further away from my cleanliness. Let's see if I can't reschedule this appointment for Sunday night after I've taken the sacrament and I become the most clean that I am so that I can have the spirit fully charged and help you in that moment until I can get to the next point where I don't think that that's the point of the sacrament, like you're saying, Nate, if that's the case, then in a church, would we not be practicing the last rite? Would we not want to hurry up and rush the sacrament in before somebody dies so that they can have a good oppression when they get to the gates and make that thing work. That's why we have been trying to push back on this in a healthy way. [00:22:44] Speaker B: Part of the reason we do too, is because you hear, sadly, a lot of these things as the speeches during baptisms. And we did get a little bit of pushback. Like, well, I haven't ever heard any of these speeches. I'm like, cool. I went to a baptism a few weeks after we had gotten some of the pushback on some people saying, I haven't really ever heard any of those links of like, hey, it's like you're taking a bath and it's like all of the sins are left in the bathwater behind you, and now you're totally clean, but then you're going to get dirty again. So you have to just be re baptized over and over. And the way to do that is take the sacrament week. I heard it literally at a baptism speech more or less three weeks after we had this discussion. And you go, okay, this again is what the idea that physically going underwater and coming back up out of the water isn't the thing that cleanses us of our sins. It's not. It's the atonement. Elder Renlin stated it again so nicely in the paragraph after that. I can either reread or just go back and edit in because I did want to read the paragraph after. [00:23:51] Speaker A: Let's hear it. [00:23:53] Speaker B: So he's talking about the treasure of the feet of Carter and the carnival, which he talked about earlier in the talk. The treasured blessings of the sacrament are available to each of us. Each time we attend sacrament meeting. We are promised that the Holy Ghost will be our constant companion if we approach the sacrament the same way. A new convert approaches baptism in confirmation with a broken heart and a contrite spirit and a determination to live up to that baptismal covenant, not to renew that baptismal covenant, to live up to that baptismal covenant. The words there are very specific, and I think they're important because the Holy Ghost blesses us with his sanctifying power so that we can always retain a remission of our sins week in and week out. To me, it's like that is the most important part of this. The Holy Ghost is the thing that cleanses and sanctifies. And even when we're baptized, obviously as part of the baptismal process, we are confirmed members of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost as the purifying, sanctifying power. Now, this again is such the core of where we're trying to lead the discussion and the understanding of this is simply taking bread, even the bread that's been put aside and set apart and sanctified. The process of even partaking of sanctified bread and water doesn't cleanse you of a sin. We know this because as we read in the scriptures, specifically in third Nephi, it's damnation to our souls. If we partake of those emblems unworthily, if those emblems were the things that cleansed us, shouldn't those be the things that cleanse us, whether we're worthy to be taking them or not? If those emblems are the things that are physically cleansing us of our sins, and in theory you should be living it up before Sunday each week, you should quickly feel bad about it, take the sacrament and be like, sweet. It's just like I was just baptized again. No, that's not the process. That's not the way that this has been set out. This is not doctrine. Instead, let's read. We don't need to. You can read what the baptismal or what the baptism prayer says, too, because this is what we're going to get into when we discuss what the actual covenant is of the baptismal covenant. But the sacrament, for instance, because the two really do go hand in hand, as far as I feel like covenants that are misunderstood. It says in it what it is. It's that you have bread and water that are sanctified and set apart to the souls that partake of it. That when we take upon ourselves the name of Christ, always remember him and keep his commandments. We will what? Have his spirit to be with us, his spirit. It's the atonement of Christ that sanctifies us. It is the Holy Ghost that can cleanse us and our souls of sin. And it's not physically being put underwater and being pulled back up. It's not even physically taking bread and water, in my opinion. I feel like the opinion that I'm trying to put forth out there, that without the sanctifying power of the Holy Ghost, without us going through the repentance process, the cycle of repentance, we cannot retain a remission of sins without those things. No matter how much sacrament we take, no matter how many times we go and get baptized over and over and over, which, by the way, is probably part of the reason that we don't, like maybe some other religions, we don't just go, hey, who's feeling like they need to go be put back underwater again? It's like, well, the promise that I made when I was baptized is that I was, as far as I knew, going to try to live my life like a disciple of Christ. I can do that. And by the way, make mistakes and then repent and be forgiven from those things. That's all part of that. It's all built into that promise that I made, that as a disciple of Christ. When I make mistakes, I can repent and that the Holy Ghost can still be my companion and can help cleanse me and can help absolve me of those sins and that Christ won't remember them anymore. Nowhere in that covenant, as far as I understood it, at least at the time and as I understood it now, is the idea that it's like, well, if you also don't do all of these other water is the thing that cleanse you. So you got to go do that over and over and over. Or even worse, maybe we misunderstood it as, but if you're not taking bread and water constantly, your sins also can't be forgiven you. I don't believe that. I don't believe that. If you go and repent of your sins on a Monday and you're so excited to take the sacrament again, but you die in a car crash on the way to church on Saturday afternoon, but you have gone through the repentance process. You've say you've needed to talk to your bishop, you've talked to your bishop, you've done all of these things. You've prayed, you have felt a witness from the Holy Ghost that those sins have been forgiven you. But then you die on a car crash on the way to church on Sunday and you didn't make it to sacrament meeting, you get to the next life and Jesus puts his arm around you and says, sorry, you didn't take the sacrament this week. You can't be cleansed of your sins because you don't get to be re baptized. I reject that idea completely. [00:29:29] Speaker A: Well, and that's another point that you've brought up that I think is worth mentioning, is we do a lot of ordinances for the dead. We do baptism for the dead. We do ceilings for the dead. We do the endowments for the dead, but we don't do sacrament for the dead, which I find interesting. [00:29:48] Speaker B: Is it a saving ordinance if we'd not doing it for the dead? I propose that the answer to that question is no, that it's not a saving ordinance. I feel like that the ordinances that we do in the temple would be saving ordinances. If the baptismal covenant, which maybe we really do need to start there, because we keep saying the word over and over and over. And I think that even then, that's a whole discussion that we need to have. But before we get into that. [00:30:21] Speaker A: If. [00:30:21] Speaker B: The baptismal covenant isn't strong enough to make it through us sinning and repenting, what exactly is that covenant then? And I guess you see what I mean. Maybe then we need to talk about it. And I really love how elder Renlin stated this multiple times. And there was a quote today in church from Elder Cook who said it again as well, which is we need to make and keep our covenants. Not make and renew our covenants, but make and keep our covenants. We need to just keep the covenants that we've made and again, renew. That's a whole thing. We can get in down the road. But unless you want to keep talking about this, I do think that we should at least start maybe down the road of what even is the baptismal covenant. [00:31:12] Speaker A: Well, one last thing I wanted to touch on that you said, when you talked about baptism not being what cleanses us from our sins, I wanted to second that with something that Joseph Smith had said a long time ago. [00:31:27] Speaker B: Please. [00:31:28] Speaker A: And Joseph Smith said that baptism by fire, the confirmation of the Holy Ghost, is necessary and is vital, is important. If you do not confirm somebody and confer upon them the gift of the Holy Ghost, he says, you might as well baptize a bag of sand. And so think about that. What effect does baptism have? In his mind? He's saying that the baptism by water is just as valid as just baptizing a bag of sand in and of itself without anything else removed from the subsequent steps. And so that's, I think, the point that we're trying to hit now, baptism is for, and when we talk about this, the purpose for baptism is to have access to what will allow you the remission of your sins, which is the repentance process. Yes, but it's not, in and of itself the cleansing of sins. That's why we're pushing back on this idea of, and here's the idea. Do I think it's wrong that people teach that baptism is like being washed and it's washing away your sins? At a very simple level, it still works. You could argue that it is because through baptism it is opening the door that you can. Right. But I think we need to think deeper than that, because if we make that connection and hold on to it as if baptism is what is sanctifying our sins, then it disconnects us from the savior, it disconnects us from Christ, and we're putting faith in works that are dead. Like you say, like Joseph Smith said, baptizing a bag of sand. [00:33:17] Speaker B: And I also think it's why. I think that we. Because at the end of the day, and again, maybe we should have even stated this before we got started. Let me state our intentions. And even having these discussions on this show and in our lives and within our friendships and our friends encourage deeper understanding, because we feel like the more we actually begin to understand things on a deeper level, it really uplifts and sanctifies and makes a lot of the things that we do a lot more profound. And hopefully something that eventually leads us to actually having a true change of heart, to actually changing our lives for the better. And the more we can understand the connection between things, the more it hopefully would anchor faith in the things that we believe. Hopefully it would, again, just enlighten and whatever, encourage an awesome experience in this life. Right. That's the whole purpose of this thing. It's not to be combative. It's not to be critical. Critical by any means. But again, I wanted to say yes. If it was as simple as yes, sometimes maybe we overly simplify these things that we talk about, then it's like, yeah, who cares? That's not a big deal. What we have noticed in our lives and in our experience, and I'm not going to speak for anybody else here, though, is we've realized that because we hear so many of those things over and over and over, explained the same way, that we begin to become not necessarily casual, but we just don't take the opportunities to look deeper into the reasons why we do or say certain things. And the more we actually take the time to evaluate why we do or say certain things, sometimes a light is shown on these things to go like, hey, that actually totally isn't necessarily correct. Or that's really not doctrinally sound, or, oh, that actually it makes more sense. Connected to x, Y and Z. Man, that actually is helping me have a much better experience each week when I am partaking the sacrament or when I am going to a baptism or what it is. And the thing is, you can see so many examples of this throughout the history of the church. We used to use the term free agency every week. You know what I mean? That was the go to term preexistence. Preexistence. I mean, there's so many little things like that. Plus, by the way, even bigger things that a lot of people believed were doctrine, that later a lot of the apostles and prophets had to come out and say, we were wrong about this. But even the language inside the temple ceremony changes. Like, yes, you might listen to this and say, hey, this isn't that big of a deal. How people discuss this. My thing is like, look, whatever is going to help you have the most intense, beautiful, life changing experience when you're making and keeping these covenants. Do whatever that is, right. I care enough about it to go. I have seen in my life how just the deep dive in my own personal life and in our discussions and the discussions with friends and family, the more I have begun to understand where I was wrong about a lot of these things that I just heard said kind of over and over and over. The more I started going like, but why do we say that? Why do we do that? It's led me down a path that has actually completely, I guess the word revolutionized my experience each week in partaking of the sacrament. And so I did just want to preface that with, for some of you that are like, why do these guys care so much about this? That's why. That's the reason. [00:37:29] Speaker A: Yeah. As I was trying to think through this, even this week and talking about baptism for the remission of sins and what that means, I was trying to walk through an example of my mind and thinking about baptism, like sitting down to the dinner table and being able to eat a meal. And as I was trying to explain this out, and I say, okay, so sitting down at the table. But then even sitting down at the table by itself was lacking. If I sit down at the table, maybe I'm sitting at the table for homework or for a discussion. And so even as I was trying to describe this or walk through this, I realized I found myself using the word sitting down at the table for dinner. And I'm like, oh, see, even that connected to me. The reason I'm sitting at the table is for dinner, but it's not the actual process of eating dinner. It's just the first step I take to be able to participate in that meal, but it's not the action that the meal gives us to. Right? So as I started walking down that example, I thought of it like this. God has made covenants with his people from the beginning of time with Adam and Eve. He makes a covenant with them and provides them with coats of skin in exchange for the sacrifice of life to cover them to atone for their nakedness, their mistake, and provide them with a solution. And we look at Abraham and the covenant that he makes with them. In order to make a covenant with God, somebody has to be authorized to represent God, or God has to be here in person to represent himself. Going back to legal terms and legal situations, God is the lawgiver. If he is going to make sacred covenants with us, to forgive us of our sins, to purify of us our sins, to resurrect us, to bring us back into his presence, to do you name it. That covenant needs to have somebody representing him, and that representation is in his church. That's where the priesthood is restored. That is the structure, that is the organization, that is the gift that he gives us. And so I cannot make covenants with God outside of his church. Where else do I find representatives to represent him? Where else do I find him in person to make that deal with me? So in order for me to make those covenants, I have to enter into the church. I have to become a member, because a member has access to the priesthood to make sacred covenants to bind me with the Lord. So therefore, I look at baptism as the door that gets me into. In order that I may make covenants to receive a remission of my sins, I have to first, just like eating dinner, I have to sit down at the table before I can now enjoy the benefits that are laid out for me. So when we say baptism for the remission of sins, that's how I choose to think of it. Yes, we do get a cleansing through covenants made with Christ, but it is because baptism opens the door for us to be able to establish those covenant relationships. It gives us access to the covenant path that we're going to walk down. It's not the final, last step that cleanses us. It's the first step that gives us access to the healing power of the atonement and the covenants through his priesthood here on earth in his church. [00:41:16] Speaker B: Well, and even the first thing that we do after we are baptized is we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Because I think that that's just such a crucial part to do all of the rest of the things that you just stated. Because again, in my opinion, what I choose to believe is that the Holy Ghost is the thing that cleanses us, is the thing that purifies us, is the thing that is the refiner's fire. And that's why I feel like it's so important that when we are baptized, the first thing that we do after that is we're confirmed a member of his church and given the gift of the Holy Ghost. Those two things are the things that then unlock or allow us to partake of the covenants that we are provided, but also provide us the opportunity to repent of our sins. [00:42:13] Speaker A: And that's exactly what Nephi is saying in this reading tonight. And I think that's why it's so important we're having this discussion tonight when we're talking about this. If I can just read a few verses. This is second Nephi 32, verse one. And now, behold my brother, my beloved brother. And I suppose that you ponder somewhat in your hearts concerning that which ye should do after you have entered in by the way, again, right? It's an entrance. Baptism is an entrance, and it gives us access to the way. And what is a way? In Hebrew, the word way, Derek, is path. A road away. Right, a path. But behold, why do you ponder these things in your hearts? Do you not remember that I have said unto you that after you have received the Holy Ghost, you could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could you speak with the tongue of angels? Save it were by the Holy Ghost. Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. And this is what you're talking about? Nate, the Holy Ghost comes after baptism. And think, even on Lehi's vision, when you have the path, what's next to the path? Is it not the iron Rod, which is a representation of the word of God? Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. What is the power of the Holy Ghost? Is it not the words of a member of the Godhead? Is it not the words of God? The Holy Ghost testifies to truth. Testifies to the word of. So think about it again. That vision of the tree of life, there is a path you enter in by baptism. Darkness is going to come, but the Holy Ghost is going to be your guide to help you as you traverse that path and make sacred covenants, to be able to participate in that fruit. [00:43:55] Speaker B: And along that path, by the way, as you stray from the path, you repent, and you go and hold on to that rod again, what you don't do, at least I didn't read from the vision, is have to run all the way back to the start and renew the entrance into onto that path. If I'm just going to throw that word out there again, because I kind of am pushing back specifically against this word, even though I understand that in certain contexts it could be used. But what I love about the visual of what you just described too. Is that as you move further along the way? Yes. As we go down the covenant path, we make higher covenants. A lot of the things that we do as children prepare us for the things that we will be promising to do later. The higher law. Right. And this is where a lot of when we get to it, at a certain point, whether it's tonight or down the road, when we actually look at the sacrament, it's so much more linked to so much more of the temple ceremony than it is with actual, the sitting down to the table, going through the door to get on the path in the first place. But what I love about the visualization just to highlight is that as you go through the gate, as you cling to that rod, there will be the times that the darkness maybe becomes too much and you get lost and maybe you let go. You're not being asked to run back to the beginning and start back down that path. [00:45:24] Speaker A: No. [00:45:24] Speaker B: You're asked to hopefully have something to guide you, to get your hand back on that iron rod and to still keep moving towards the end goal and not having to start all the way over again, which would, by the way, be a pretty miserable, bleak thought. If our entire lives are spent trying to be better and trying to be better, and then every mistake that we make, it's like, oh, I guess I have to start back over at the beginning again. I guess I need to go get re baptized again. It's just like, oh, man, I don't like the imagery of that. I don't like the idea of that or the understanding of that. [00:46:03] Speaker A: I want to pick up on one more fallacy, that misunderstanding, what baptism can lead to. If we thought baptism was to wash away our sins to this level of commitment of a covenant up front, then as parents, would we not want to push the baptism date of our youngsters back until they're old enough to understand the commitment that they're getting into? [00:46:32] Speaker B: This is a great point. Keep going. Because this leads us to the next part of this discussion. [00:46:36] Speaker A: Yes. If this is the idea, why not wait till they're 30, like Christ, where they're thinking for themselves and they can make that covenant and they understand. [00:46:44] Speaker B: See, it's one of the biggest things that, by the way, critics of the church kind of push back against us for. How dare you commit an eight year old to this covenant when it's like they're just barely even being able to understand. So you bring up a very valid point. [00:47:04] Speaker A: When we understand that baptism is the entryway in order that we might receive the remission of sins. It is entrance into the kingdom of God, if you will, where his priesthood exists, where his covenants are, that we can make those covenants and enter into those relationships. We are allowing them at an early age, access to where they can find these that are going to bless their lives, and they're going to wait until they're older to make some of those covenants and have some of those commitments. Then we look at it and say, it is important that we at an early age, set them on the path, that we get them through that gate, that they can have access to those blessings, those priesthood blessings, that they can be grown up along the way, that they're prepared to make the covenants when the time is right. And now we look at it and say, you know what? Eight is a great age for baptism because it is not the end all, be all partaking of the fruit of the tree of life that's going to purge you of all your sins. It is the first step in a commitment to follow Christ so that you can later make covenants along that way that will prepare you to be in his presence. [00:48:20] Speaker B: Man, that needs to be like the headline banner, I feel like, of any future discussion that we ever have about this, because that was flawlessly stated, in my opinion, and is the way that I choose to see it and believe it. What I would like to just maybe throw back to you and continue on this discussion is this is where a lot of my research has kind of led me to some really great big picture questions, too, which is, what is the baptismal covenant? [00:48:53] Speaker A: Yes, I think that's the next step. I'm glad you asked that. [00:48:58] Speaker B: Let me throw this out there for those listening, because I've thrown out this challenge in the past when it came to find me any scriptures that link baptism to the sacrament, to partaking of the sacrament. So far, we haven't found any, and I have not heard of any that have linked the two directly. The next challenge that I would love to throw out, because I think it leads to some really amazing thought exercises and some really amazing chances to actually have to really think through this and pray about it and maybe see where you're at on this, is find me a scripture that says what the baptismal covenant is. [00:49:44] Speaker A: I love that you asked this question. I love that you have been asking this question. When we look at baptismal Covenant, it's a term that we throw around. [00:49:51] Speaker B: So from elder Renlin, in the quote that I'm using from last conference, it's just words that we put together always the baptismal covenant, but continue. [00:50:02] Speaker A: So we have to ask ourselves the question, what is the baptismal covenant? And I think we get oftentimes asking that question. I think we'll get the response in mosaic if you're willing to bear the burdens, bear one another's burdens and make each other's burdens light and help and take upon my name. Okay, where is that stated in the act of baptism? [00:50:22] Speaker B: That's right. [00:50:23] Speaker A: Where do you have that as part of the ordinance? Where do you sit down and say, do you agree to XYZ? And where do you sign? On the dotted line. Right. [00:50:30] Speaker B: How many children of yours have been baptized? [00:50:33] Speaker A: All six. [00:50:34] Speaker B: In all six of those, did the bishop ask those questions in Messiah when he was asking them if they were okay? Just making sure. Continue. By the way, did you ever conduct a baptismal interview when you were on your mission? [00:50:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:53] Speaker B: Did you ask those questions in Messiah to qualify them for baptism? I didn't, no. Okay, continue. [00:51:00] Speaker A: So as I've been thinking about, what is this baptismal covenant? Is it okay to call it a baptismal covenant? And I feel that it is. I feel that it is, and I feel like I can offer at least an explanation of how I see the baptismal covenant. This is my perception on this. If you have any other insight or if you want to push back on this, feel free to let us know. But I look at it like this, what happens? And again, I want to take this into very legal terms. In order for an agreement to hold to stand in court, there has to be tit for tat or this for that, meaning that both sides have to be giving something up in the relationship. And this is any covenant relationship, any agreement, any contract. There has to be that I look at, what is somebody agreeing to when they get baptized? Well, first off, are they not agreeing to be a member of the church? Isn't that the entrance into being a member of the church? Because after they're baptized, they are confirmed a member of the church. And their names are now added the records. So they are called a member of the church. And if you're called a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, then by extension, you are taking upon you the name of Jesus Christ. You are a member of his church. So I would say that in baptism, the baptismal covenant is I will be called one of Christ's followers, a member of his church. And that means I am taking his name upon him, and I am going to do my best to represent him. He will be my God, and I will be his people. And in that comes the tit for tat, the this for that. I am going to listen when he calls, when he says, through his church, they're going to guide and direct me to what the Lord wants, what the Lord is saying, and I will listen, and he will provide me with his spirit to guide me. He will provide me with counsel and direction and his words, and I will walk along that covenant path. I see that as the baptismal covenant. And I look at that, and that's a covenant that will hold up because there's give and take on both ends. I will follow. He will guide. This is what he's going to give me. This is what I'm going to give him. In order for an agreement to actually be binding, not only does it have to have tip for tap, but it also has to be physically or demonstratively. What's that? Demonstrably. Demonstrably shown that both sides have agreed or ratified that agreement. So you look at ancient times when they make those covenants, right? Even in the ancient covenants, when you have a massive army that conquers a city, and they have this relationship where one is the dominant and the other is this vassal, submissive part of this covenant, the dominant still is promising services. We will send our armies to protect you. We will protect you from your neighbors. We will provide this service. In exchange, you will pay this tribute. You will pay these taxes. So it's tit for tat, and then they have a ceremony, a right or an ordinance that they need to go through to show that ratification. And we've talked about this in previous episodes on the show, but let's just take this to modern examples in modern times, in order for an agreement to work, there has to be an ordinance, an exchange, a shaking of hands is. [00:54:55] Speaker B: Something that, sure, it's still a physical. [00:54:58] Speaker A: It's a physical act that both sides show their willingness to live up to that agreement. And it does hold up in court. If you can show that there's witnesses that saw that they shook on it, they agreed, both sides, or signing a contract, piece of paper. Right? So then I look at this, and this takes me back to the chapters in second Nephi, when we talk about Christ's need to being baptized, our need to be baptized, we're going through and demonstrating our act of going in the water and coming out of the water is like us signing the contract. It is the ordinance that we are physically demonstrating our willingness to agree to. And I think Christ coming down here and him being baptized as well, is him signing that contract as well. Him also saying, I am willing to agree to these terms to be your God. He does this as a way to enter into the kingdom of God also. [00:55:58] Speaker B: By a priesthood holder acting in place of God, I think would also qualify as that, too. I agree with you, but I also think that that's part of the physical qualification, too. Is a licensed representative, if you will. [00:56:14] Speaker A: Right. Like a notary. [00:56:15] Speaker B: That's right. [00:56:16] Speaker A: Somebody that can attest to it, that can sign, and somebody that has the power to be able to do it. Right. Someone that's representing God with the priesthood and us as well. [00:56:27] Speaker B: So I love this. No, I'm not going to push back, but I'm going to throw this out there. And I don't say this rhetorically or as even a leading question. You just gave a very eloquent description. And I actually, I think, probably agree with word for word with what you said in theory of what the baptismal covenant is. Of all of your six children. Which of the six knew that they were doing that at the time? [00:56:57] Speaker A: I think all of them knew they were becoming members of the church. [00:57:00] Speaker B: Okay, that part, yes. But, dude, all of the other stuff of to listen when you're called and to do the thing. This is why I'm glad we're talking about this. [00:57:10] Speaker A: And it's in levels, it's in layers, right. [00:57:12] Speaker B: This is an introductory, which is why. This is why I'm still so much trying to figure this out and discover this for myself. Because also to have it be a fair exchange of a promise, both have. [00:57:28] Speaker A: To understand, they have to understand what they're doing. [00:57:33] Speaker B: There has to be a level of understanding from both sides, which is why I feel like the more I try to understand that aspect of it, the more I keep coming back to the actual baptismal covenant being way, way less than all of the things that we actually attach to it, for whatever it's worth, because we let and encourage eight year old children to participate in this exchange or in this promise, this exchange of value, this two way promise. I think that we learn that it really can become a lot of those things, like maybe throughout life, as we really learn what it truly means to be a disciple of Christ, then that's maybe when a lot more of that understanding that you just said comes to it, or we can put that in the covenant. But when my children are being interviewed for baptism, they're being asked, what does it mean to you? And they're like that I want to be like Jesus. And by the way, the challenge I put out earlier is go through the scriptures and find me where it actually says the baptismal covenant. It changes so much kind of depending upon the story you brought up at the end of the Book of Mormon. But even Nephi is just kind of going, well, it's just kind of the gate, right? It's the gate. If you look at when Alma's out baptizing a bunch of people, I mean, his is the quote of, like, even if you have the desire, like, even if it's in your heart to do the right thing, then what have you against being baptized? Isn't that just as much of a covenant as anything else that it says anywhere throughout the book? [00:59:15] Speaker A: I love that you brought that up, because it is. If you have in as much as a desire to do those things, this is the first step. It's not doing those things. It's not providing those things. I have a desire to learn how to be, and maybe that's the beginning of the baptismal, is I want to be like Jesus. This is where I'm starting. And we build on that with the covenants that we make following that point. [00:59:45] Speaker B: Yes and yes and yes. And for me, again, thank you for so much more eloquently stating what I was trying to say. This is what I'm trying to say is that an eight year old can go, I feel great when I think about Jesus. I have the desire to do the right thing. [01:00:13] Speaker A: Sweet. [01:00:14] Speaker B: Well, we're going to go through this ordinance, by the way. It's one of the few, if maybe the only supposed covenants. Because again, I'm trying to even now, better understand just the difference between ordinances and covenants. And are they always associated? And look, I'm not making a statement on this, so please don't write in, like, of course they are. I don't know. I don't know. But I look at this ordinance that we have young children perform by priesthood holders who, by the way, can be also children themselves. Even performing this ordinance at 16 years old, at 15 now, right. Even at late 15 year old can now be performing these ordinances. Children are doing this. On a certain level, I think that it would be the most unfair, unjust, God if the commitment is so much that they couldn't even possibly understand. And by the way, not even really knowing what it is that they're getting exactly in return. For me, if you look at this, on the simplest level of, I have the desire to begin the covenant path. [01:01:24] Speaker A: Cool. [01:01:25] Speaker B: I know that I'm giving that. Here's what I'm receiving in return. You said it perfectly. I am now a member of the church. That provides me the opportunity to be forgiven for my sins, to, down the road, learn about and take on more commitment and more covenant and understand things better, make heavier promises, make a lot more binding promises, make promises that, by the way, actually state what the consequences are if you don't live up to certain, you know what I mean, covenants that you're making down the road, all of which that we could never expect an eight year old to comprehend, let alone that we would ever try to baptize them into. For me, when you look at the baptismal covenant, if we're going to call it that as the most simple possible way, then I agree with the scripture. Then what have you against doing this? Then what have you against doing this? This isn't the same as going through the temple and the promises that we make there. And by the way, the clothing we commit to wearing after, the way that we commit to communicating, the way that we commit to dealing with the people around us in business, I mean, all of those things, so many of those things that it's like we wouldn't expect of an eight year old, but we can expect the simplest thing. And therefore, I don't know of any other covenants that don't state what it is that you're promising and what it is that you're being promised in return. [01:02:53] Speaker A: I would like to call it a scalable covenant. [01:02:56] Speaker B: I'm fine with that. [01:02:59] Speaker A: And I feel like that even needs a little bit of an explanation. I want to understand baptism and the sacrament in terms of the temple, and let's see if we can't draw some parallels there and see if we can't make some connections that help us understand what kids are getting into and what this means by a scalable covenant. You make a really good point, Nate. If this is a covenant that kids are making, how come they're not given in very clear terms? This is the terms of the covenant, and this is what you're agreeing to. And having it explained like that as they're going in, why is that not part of the ordinance? Why is that not part of the prayer? And in trying to answer that question, I think of the endowment in the temple. And what we call the endowment is only a small portion of the endowment, because it used to be that the endowment was one long process that involved everything from washing to anointing to what we call the endowment, and then to the ceiling that all of that used to be the endowment, and it was one ordinance and by breaking it up into several different ordinances, we miss out on something here. What is the covenant you make when you're washed and when you're anointed? You're going through this. You could look at it as saying, just like baptism, this is an ordinance where you are agreeing to a part and you're physically doing something, and a representative of the Lord is physically doing something to enter into this covenant relationship. But what are the terms of this covenant? What have you agreed to in the washing and the anointing? Nothing in and of itself. When we look at the washing and anointing, you have not covenanted to do anything. What you've done is you have been prepared to make a covenant. [01:05:08] Speaker B: Correct? [01:05:09] Speaker A: You're washed to become clean and anointed so that you can take the next step and make that covenant. And then the covenant in the endowment. And they talk about the covenants that you make, the law of sacrifice, the law of obedience, the law of chastity, the law of consecration. And I know I'm missing one somewhere in that process. But you know what I'm talking about. [01:05:32] Speaker B: You are promising to keep the commandments gospel. [01:05:35] Speaker A: The gospel. The law of the gospel. Thank you. You are promising to obey in exchange for. And how is that covenant any different than the covenant that you're making? And we call it a baptismal covenant. Honestly, I think it's better served calling it maybe even the sacrament covenant. [01:05:58] Speaker B: Oh, man, now you're speaking my language. [01:06:01] Speaker A: Instead of renewing my language, Jason, instead of renewing the baptismal covenant, baptism is preparing us to make the sacrament covenant. Because in the sacrament, what are we doing now? You have terms being listed out. You promise to keep my commandments, to always remember me, to do these things in exchange for. So what are the terms of the baptismal covenant? Well, maybe we've been looking at this wrong. Maybe it's not the baptismal covenant. Maybe baptism is the entrance by which we can make the covenant, and we do it for the baptism does not, excuse me, the sacrament does not mean what it means to nonmembers as it does to members, because it's members of the church that now partake of that ordinance, that covenant that before then, it's just eating bread and water. Right. [01:06:57] Speaker B: But you say it this perfectly. And again, it needs to be said, too, that that bread. And it says it in the prayer that that emblem is set apart. That emblem is sanctified, which is not the thing that cleanses you, because if you take it unworthily, it's eating and drinking damnation to your soul is how the scripture says. But needless to say, by the way, this is why. Even though I feel like I kind of unintentionally ruffled some feathers, wouldn't let my kids take the sacrament until they were baptized. Because I'm just like, hey. [01:07:32] Speaker A: By the. [01:07:32] Speaker B: Way, I have sense, like, relaxed. Because enough people in my life are like, hey, the fact that your kids are wanting to participate in an ordinance, look, they're not being held accountable for their sins. I'm not drawing any lines in the sand at this point. I'm not picking a fight. [01:07:45] Speaker A: No, but I appreciate you. I'm saying, helping them understand how important that is. [01:07:50] Speaker B: And that is still the line I do have, is that I have a one year old. And when she's reaching for it, like, oh, no, this isn't snack time, I don't let her have it. But my six year old, almost six year old, who sits on my lap when we take it, and I ask him before he takes it, hey, what are we doing? And he says, hey, now's the time to think about Jesus. I'm like, okay, cool. There's at least a level of understanding what is. Now you might write back and be like, you're still wrong, and you're still doing this wrong. And by the way, I probably am. [01:08:18] Speaker A: Man, I don't know. [01:08:19] Speaker B: I'm trying to figure this out, too. [01:08:21] Speaker A: Leave me alone. [01:08:23] Speaker B: Needless to say. But that's why I even still cared enough about that is because it needs to be more than just the bread and the water, but continue. Can I jump in here a little bit? [01:08:36] Speaker A: Yes, please do. [01:08:38] Speaker B: It is an important thing, I think, to, what you just said is when you talk about it being a scalable covenant, I also just think that it's okay if that covenant, when we are baptized, doesn't have to be all of the other things that we put on it. And by the way, the covenants that we do make when we take the sacrament that are specifically listed out in a weird sort of way, actually kind of encapsulated way more of what you were saying that you would understand as the baptismal covenant, what you described is much more in line, I feel like, with taking upon yourself his name, keeping his commandments, which he has given you, and always remembering him. So I'm completely agreeing with your point. And I think I'm trying to even almost highlight that so many of those things that we have kind of because of the way that we talk about these two ordinances together, we've associated so much that sacrament is just the renewing over and over and over and over of the baptismal covenant. Instead, maybe the way that we should have been looking at this is that the baptismal covenant is literally the gateway to prepare us to be making and renewing. If you're going to use the word, the sacrament covenant and not the other way around, man. [01:10:03] Speaker A: Nate, thank you. [01:10:06] Speaker B: We're thanking each other tonight, dude. [01:10:08] Speaker A: Now it's my turn. Now it's my turn to say thank you. That is so well stated. I feel like baptism, that's where I feel like we've missed the boat. It's not that the sacrament, we get so caught up in saying it's renewing our baptismal covenant when maybe what we should have been looking at it is baptism is preparing us to make our sacramental covenant. And when I say it's a scalable covenant, this is what I mean. We promise to do what he asks, right? And to always remember him, to take his name upon him. What is he asking a child to do as far as representing him? He's not asking a child to teach gospel doctrine. He's not asking a child to go out on a mission. He's not asking a child, this is what I mean by a scalable covenant, by simply saying, you are agreeing to do what I ask and I am agreeing to do this. And now I am only asking where much is given, much is expected. I am not expecting much from an eight year old child. I'm not asking much. Let them grow into that responsibility and this covenant scales with their growth, with their learning. It is a covenant path, not a one time thing that they just went into. This is something that the Lord, this relationship matures and grows as we mature and grow. And that's why baptism is so important to do at an early age. When you take them in at eight, let's start them in here. The Lord's not asking much. [01:11:37] Speaker B: That's right. [01:11:37] Speaker A: But let's grow and understand so that we're ready when he does. We can make those commitments. [01:11:42] Speaker B: And they've been practicing it, by the way, from eight years old now on. This is why I think to add to this, it's why I think it's so important that we are encouraging and we've made it a practice that we have eight year olds be baptized in our church, is that there is something that builds like a muscle within us as we make covenants and as we keep covenants. And it's one of the things that I've always loved about the idea of the sacrament is that instead of looking at it as a renewal of a covenant, I understand, a lot of people say, well, you could replace the word recommit. And I'm like, okay, cool. I don't want to get into the semantics discussion right now, because there are valid points to be made on that too. But for me, when I look at it, is that every week we are allowing now, the youth as well as ourselves, to enter into a covenant. Where, by the way, if you're listening to the prayer, you're told, here is what you are promising. Jesus Christ himself in third Nephi explained, here is why I want you to be taking of the sacrament each week, in his words, not mine, to witness to the father that you will always remember me. That is the reason that at its most basic level, out of Jesus's mouth, that's why we're taking the sacrament each week, is to witness to heavenly Father that we will always remember Jesus, that we'll take upon ourselves his name, and that we will keep his commandments. And then we're told what we're promised in return, that we will have his spirit to be with us to me, in the way that I choose to believe it, the thing that actually cleanses us of our sins, the Holy Ghost, to always be with us, by the way, throughout the week, when we need to be repenting of our sins, not just on Sundays, that the Holy Ghost will always be with us. This is an important distinction to why I don't think that the sacrament itself is the thing that's cleansing us of our sins, re baptizing, or even the sacrament itself. That's my point, is that that's not the thing that's doing it, that the Holy Ghost will be with us whenever we need to make some adjustments and fix those things. What I love about it for our young people is for my eight year old, my nine year old, now child, my eleven year old, and my soon to be eight year old child in a few years, is that it's a chance for them to start learning the processes of I'm promising to do this, and here's what I'm receiving in return, and to then seeing what that process actually bears fruit, to see what that does. Well, I'm happier in my life. If I am trying to be a better person throughout the week, when I take the sacrament, it's a good chance to remember Jesus, it's a good chance to promise to do these things. And then when I do that, I feel better throughout the week. Okay, cool. That's great. In its most simple terms, for a young person, being baptized, for me, allows them the chance to get on the path, to be doing that correctly through priesthood power each week. So that when it does come time for them to start making bigger promises and bigger covenants, they've been practicing making and keeping covenants for the last eight years of their lives, for the last ten years of their lives, however long that that is, so that when it is time to where they do go through the temple, this isn't a weird thing for them. It's not like super awkward culture blast. It's not some big secret that is just throwing them to natural progression. That's exactly right. And they've already practiced the processes of doing those things which, by the way, we don't renew our temple covenants by going to the temple and doing it for ourselves. Over and over and over, we do it once for ourselves. Right. This is where I, again, sometimes get a little bit tweaked out on the word renew is because covenants are made to be kept and not renewed, but just fulfilled. Our covenants are made, to be sure, reevaluated, to be recommitted to, I guess. But that doesn't need to be done with an ordinance, that needs to be done with the way that the covenants are laid out, by the clothes that we choose to wear, by the words that come out of our mouths, by all of those things. Right? In the temple itself, in the endowment itself. I'm glad that we've talked about this. There's a part of the temple where some incorrect information is told, is basically stated that if we don't live up to every single promise that we make right here, right now, then our souls are basically condemned. And sometimes we forget to look at who's actually giving us that information in the temple ceremony. Because right after that, and again, correct me if I'm wrong. [01:16:29] Speaker A: You're right. [01:16:29] Speaker B: Right after that, we're actually told the correct process of that it's built into the covenant, of how to stay on that covenant path, even when we make mistakes. It's not to renew it. It's part of it. It's part of it. [01:16:47] Speaker A: And if I'm interrupting you on this, please stop me. But this is where I appreciate your pushback on using casually the renewing of our baptismal covenants. It's an expression. It's a phrase that's mentioned so often, and you think about it, it makes it sound like it's a library book that needs to be turned back in. Like the covenant that we made is going to expire. [01:17:16] Speaker B: Yeah. That there's an expiration on it. [01:17:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:17:20] Speaker B: Or that it can't withstand us sinning like that. The covenants that we make aren't strong enough to survive, with us not living up to every promise that we've made right here, right here in this moment. And if you don't live up to that, then you're condemned. I don't believe that the Covenants are that feeble. [01:17:41] Speaker A: I'm with you because we've been told how many times in the scriptures that Christ was chosen before the foundation of the world. The atonement was decided before the foundation of the world. This wasn't. We sent Adam and Eve there thinking they would be perfect and they messed up and so did everyone else. So now we have to figure, no, this is the nature of the covenant and it was made to withstand. In fact, for this purpose, it was given to us. And you're right, I don't like to think of renewing the covenant because the covenant expired with, oh, I broke my covenant, now I have to go remake it again. If that's the case, then why aren't we being re baptized all of the time? If that's the case, why don't we do these ordinances for the dead every week over and over and over? Because I'm sure they haven't get it right. And how come we aren't doing it over and over and over again for ourselves? [01:18:37] Speaker B: And yet we don't do the sacrament for the dead. [01:18:39] Speaker A: And that's where I love that you're pushing on this, because it says in the sacrament, and this we do as a remembrance to keep it in front of us. And so it's not the covenant that we're renewing. And that's where that mismatch is always felt. And I really appreciate the words from elder Oaks. This is back in 1996, conference October, he says, when members of the church consciously and sincerely renew their baptismal covenant. So here we have that phrase again. But now listen to how he describes this. By partaking the sacrament, said Elder Dallan H. Hoax of the corm of the twelve, we renew our qualifications for the promise that we may always have his spirit to be with us. We're not renewing the covenant, we're renewing us. [01:19:29] Speaker B: That's right. [01:19:32] Speaker A: I like that you say this. You should always do in remembrance. I guess that's kind of the rubs that we've had with this. [01:19:41] Speaker B: It's Jesus that said that, by the way, not me. Those are Jesus's words. [01:19:47] Speaker A: That's kind of the rubs that we've had with these as we've tried to push back a little bit and understand what is the baptismal covenant? Or is really baptism opening the way to making covenants? [01:19:59] Speaker B: That's right. [01:20:00] Speaker A: And what is this renewing of the covenant, or is this really renewing us? [01:20:05] Speaker B: That's right. And we're coming to the table with the broken heart and the contrite spirit. [01:20:09] Speaker A: That's it. And how are we remembering this and continuing to, it's established in perpetuity that we might always remember, that we might always continue along this path, continue with this commitment, not that the covenant has lost any of its vigor or strength, or that we have to all of a sudden be cleansed again. [01:20:30] Speaker B: You bring up something that is interesting, too, that it is, by the way, a fantastic chance to remember the covenants that we've made. I do believe that. I completely believe that remembrance is the key word for me in all of this. When we go through the temple. And even, like you just described, which it's awesome. Now, I remember when we heard it in church today, the covenants of the endowment being talked about over the pulpit, and then he's like, hey, well, let me show you where I'm reading this from. It's like the church's literature out in the world. I'm like, hey, I'm really glad. You know what I mean? That's awesome. That we can be a little bit more like, we're not too nervous to talk about some of the commitments that we make even when we're in the temple. But think about the ones that you just said. Obedience, right? Obedience and sacrifice and the gospel keeping the commandments. It's like, oh, my goodness. All of those promises that we make as part of our endowment, man, those tie in almost directly one for one, with the words of the sacrament prayer, to keep the commandments, to always remember. And by the way, we're there as the body of Christ is being broken and sacrificed on the table is the law of sacrifice and obedience to always remember him. I do like the idea that even the sacrament covenant is to even then prepare us for the covenants that we will be making, maybe the higher law of those things, or if not that, at least a chance for us to remember each week those covenants that we have made and reflect upon those things. And as we partake of that sacrament and as we make that commitment, I absolutely, completely support and love the idea that we are recommitting ourselves. And I know that this is kind of where a lot of, where the semantics discussion gets brought up a lot is like, well, what's the difference between renew or recommit? And it's all those things. And I'm like, well, you know why I don't like to use the term renew, recommit. I do like, but I also have never, as we've been talking about this, I haven't necessarily hated the idea that each week we do just get the practice of constantly making and keeping covenants and seeing what blessings in our life happen as we make and keep covenants. And every week we get the opportunity to make and keep a covenant. And in that covenant, it entails remembering all of the other ones that we've made, of course, but that there is strength and there is power in being a covenant people, in yoking ourselves to christ each week, in binding ourselves to him through the making of covenants and through what we're promised if we keep those covenants. [01:23:24] Speaker A: I love. And to me, this is where it gets fun. Are we ready to have a little bit of fun with this? Let's do it. [01:23:31] Speaker B: This is where we haven't been having fun yet. No, I'm like over here sweating. I'm just like, who knows the emails we're getting this week? Keep going. [01:23:39] Speaker A: No, I love it. But this is where to me, it actually gets very exciting and very fun when we get past seeing it as just a bath to get rid of our sins and we start to understand a little bit more for what it is and why we say that it's for the cleansing of sins and why we say it's the renewing. Right. To get into some of this imagery, right. Baptism is symbolic of death. You're putting someone, and you look at that water at ground level, you are burying them under the ground. And when you pull them up out of the ground, clothed in white, it's very symbolic of a resurrection. This is a future promise. When are we forgiven of our sins? What good does it do to be forgiven of my sins if they're all going to keep coming back? This is a relationship, a working relationship with Christ, that if I stay with it, if I stick with this long enough, Christ is going to be with me and he's going to stick with it. And it's going to, like you say, take into account all of the mistakes along the way in what we do, right? This is not a, you rise out of the ground, perfect and spotless, and now you're clean for the rest of you, no, this is the beginning. That when you die and you're pulled up out of the grave and resurrected. And think of that resurrection image, and now think of the death image. I am going to have to die, literally, someday, I am going to die. But there are parts of me that I'm going to have to figure out how to bury in that ground, how to kill, how to kill, how to get rid of, how to change, how to sacrifice. What am I going to sacrifice so that I can come up clean again? This starts to get the imagery. [01:25:34] Speaker B: That's temple language, too. Obedience and sacrifice. [01:25:37] Speaker A: That's it. [01:25:38] Speaker B: Like sacrifice. Not just what of our temporal things are we willing to give up? What part of our will are we willing to sacrifice but continue? [01:25:49] Speaker A: And I think of the Hebrew. You look at creation, and God separated the waters from above the earth from the waters below the earth. And when he talks about the windows of heaven being opened and the blessings poured out, well, what are the windows doing if they're closing off the water that's above? And when they open, he's letting the rain come down. Israel does not live next to the Euphrates river or the Nile river. They don't have irrigation. They're reliant upon the rain for their crops. And how many times in the Old Testament do you read about famine and drought because the heavens were sealed? And the heavens were sealed in regard to prophecy and revelation. And they were sealed literally in regard to the water that was above the earth not coming down and watering the crops. And so when they opened the gates, they opened the windows of heaven, the rains came down, and the people. So where I'm trying to go with this water, symbolic of revelation. We've talked about that with the Holy Ghost, but also the hebrew word for heaven. With this in mind, Shah, meaning there is maim, meaning water. Sha maim, there is water. The idea that God, in ancient times, they would put tie up posts on the roof of their temple because God had to come from where he was and traverse the water that was above the earth in a boat to get here, the temples, you go look at the Akitu festival and the Babylonians, and they have their God in a boat inside of their temple, and they would take him out of there, put in a larger boat on the new Year's festival, and drive him all the way through the city in a boat, because that's how he got here in the jewish temple, in the holy of holies, the throne of God, is the ark a boat, pearl of great price. Go look at that seal and tell me in the top right hand corner, God sitting on his throne is God sitting in a boat. And the heavens were considered this water. So now go back to this baptismal ordinance. What are we doing? We are passing through the waters. We are passing through death so that we can come out on the other end of the water. What's on the other end of the water? Where God lives. This is a journey, and this is the first step on the path I am committing to pass through these waters to get where God resides. Think of some of the symbolism of this, and think of even greek mythology. What happens when the people died and they'd put coins over their eyes. Why? Because they needed to pay the boatman to get across the river sticks. Some of these imagery. [01:28:41] Speaker B: We still talk about spaceships. [01:28:43] Speaker A: We do. How do we explore space in ships? When we start to look at baptism with a little bit more depth, we see the layers that are built in this, and it becomes fun. [01:28:59] Speaker B: But that's the twist always, I feel like. Is that. Yes. I would hope that our discussion tonight has spurred some ideas of those listening of really thinking a lot deeper about the ordinance of baptism. And I'm hoping that in the same discussion, maybe we've also started to understand the simplicity of what the actual covenants, if we're going to call them that, the promises that are made at the same time. That's the whole point of what we're talking about, is as we, as you and I, Jason, if we've been discussing this, and I have felt so much more enlightened, again on the depth of the covenant itself, on the symbolism, on the imagery of it, I've also, in the same time, just gone like, oh, my goodness, I think I have put so much more on the promises being made than might actually be there. And as you look through the scriptures, which, again, the challenge stands, find me in the scriptures where it actually says what the baptismal covenant is. Good luck. We've been scouring it ourselves, so it really just depends on who you know, which part of the scriptures you're on. Maybe there's something to be said that even the words of the baptism are the important part of who you're being commissioned by. Right. That's the part of the contract, having been commissioned in the name of the Father and Son of the Holy Ghost. [01:30:25] Speaker A: Which is interesting language, too, because you don't often reference all three members of the Godhead. [01:30:32] Speaker B: That is interesting, too. Going to have to go down that sometime. Yeah, good discussion. I mean, it's long, but I feel like it's funny because I still feel like there's so much left unsaid that you and I have talked about that we haven't gotten into, but maybe we can still get into that when we start getting into more, like, sacrament stuff. [01:30:55] Speaker A: I think I've got maybe two last thoughts to wrap this up on my part. [01:30:59] Speaker B: All right. [01:30:59] Speaker A: I know we're probably. [01:31:01] Speaker B: No, we're only like 90 minutes in, but that's all right. [01:31:03] Speaker A: Oh, snap. [01:31:04] Speaker B: Hey, everybody's been saying, when's the bonus episode coming? Well, you're getting a little bit of a bonus on this one. [01:31:08] Speaker A: All right, you are the last two thoughts I want to leave with this one. As we're talking about the sacrament and maybe liberating our views of what I hope for you guys listening, whatever we're 90 minutes in, whatever you're seeing. The sacrament and baptism with more beauty, with more layers, with more depth, or just. It's not something super simple that there's more to appreciate. There's real beauty in this. And as we've looked at maybe liberating these from oversimplified views, which I don't say are bad, I think it's good. You have to begin somewhere. And in the end, yes, you do get baptized for the remission of sins, and yes, you do renew your commitments. But there's more to it, right? And there's danger, as we've illustrated in thinking that. Sorry, I'm just rambling at this point. Let me get to what I'm trying to say. When we view the sacrament for what the sacrament is, rather than a renewal of a covenant we didn't fully understand, the sacrament takes on new light. [01:32:11] Speaker B: Agreed. [01:32:12] Speaker A: When we start to understand the sacrament in terms of the showbread in the temple and the holy place, and understanding that the sacrament is taking place on an altar, and start looking at the covenants that we make in the temple at an altar, and we start to appreciate the sacrament. [01:32:31] Speaker B: Priesthood holders, by the way, officiated by priesthood holders. [01:32:33] Speaker A: Officiated by priesthood holders. And when we look at this in light of Abraham's covenant and the animals being cut and divided, and we look at Christ and his body being torn and then passed on either side of the congregation, as we are passed through the middle of these pieces and start seeing it in connection with ancient covenants and realizing that God hasn't changed, and really there only has been one covenant from the beginning, even with Adam. If you follow me, if you remember me and do what I say, I will clothe you, I will cover you, I will save you, I will come in, atone, and pay the price for you. I will be your people if you will be my God. All covenants are the one covenant, and different levels of maturity and understanding and scalability and how we become his people. My one point was the sacrament can be liberated from baptism to understand that there are a lot of sacred connections with the temple. [01:33:42] Speaker B: Even representatives going to the altar to basically, you know what I mean? Make the covenants physically, and then to go and disperse throughout the rest of the congregation to pass those emblems around. [01:33:56] Speaker A: And access to the sacrament is being protected by a veil. You have to pass through the veil to have access to God. [01:34:09] Speaker B: And by the way, the sacrament prayer is one of the few prayers that have to be said word for word. You know what I mean? It's like, it has to be, you got baptism, you got the sacrament. [01:34:25] Speaker A: Temple ordinances, and then temple ordinances, they're connected. And I love it, because think of the very first temple here in this dispensation. You look at the Kirtland temple, and what did they have? They had the podiums of the ironic priesthood on one side, the podiums of the Melchizedek priesthood on one side. Yet they were all in one room. And you think about it, and you got, the ironic priesthood is preparatory. These ordinances are ironic priesthood ordinances which mirror what we see on the other end of it in the temple. The temple is Melchizedek priesthood ordinances complementary to the ironic priesthood. The ironic prepares us to make those covenants and bring us into the presence of God, which we do in the temple with these Melchizedek priesthood ordinances. [01:35:07] Speaker B: Yes, I love it. [01:35:09] Speaker A: And then the last point I wanted to make is going back to second, Nephi 31 through 33, when Nephi is explaining baptism and following Christ and these commitments and really trying to dig in with this, he looks out at the people, and it troubles him that they're still pondering in their hearts, what now? He's like, you don't get it at this point. How do you not get it right? And he talks about, did it not say that you could speak by the power, speak in the tongue of angels? And how do angels speak? They speak by the gift of the Holy Ghost. I wanted to really pick up on that term, angels, because angels in Hebrew, Malach is those that are sent. How do you get to be sent? How do you get to be an angel? The keys of the ironic priesthood. The ironic priesthood holds the keys to the ministering of angels. The bishop holds the keys to the ironic priesthood in the ward. You become a member under the direction of a bishop. With baptism and with the direction of the bishop, people are sent to minister, to teach, to speak, to do whatever it is by the gift of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost allows us to speak with the tongue of those who have been sent, and we speak in the name of Christ, the words that he would have us speak. It's an awesome responsibility. But the point of it is, when we receive that gift of the Holy Ghost, after we've been baptized, the Lord will inspire us and direct us and help us to know where we should go. We receive direction, but he won't tell us how to do it. And so one last verse. I want to read. This hit me really hard. As we're reading family scriptures this week, we're behind, I think, a lot of us families. I'm totally behind. [01:37:01] Speaker B: Yeah, don't worry about that. [01:37:02] Speaker A: It'll take us another year before we get through it. But we're first. Nephi, chapter 20. I love this. It hit me so hard. Also saith the Lord, I the Lord. Yea, I have spoken. Yea, I have called him to declare, I have brought him, and then yet listen to this last line. And he shall make his way prosperous. And I thought that was interesting. The Lord's taking all this. I called him, I directed him, I gave him, and yet he stopped short and says, but he will make his way prosperous and go back. The gift of the Holy Ghost and what it is. He can guide us. He can inspire us. He can teach us. But he leaves it up to us to walk that path. It is up to us on whether or not we'll be prosperous. Go back to the covenants of the Old Testament. God says, I will send rain in its due time. I will open the windows of heaven. But do you know what he doesn't say? He doesn't say, I will plant your crops. I will harvest your crops. I will plow your fields. No, he leaves that up to us. And the one that's really been sticking out in our minds lately, when the brother of Jared is asked to build the barges, the Lord is providing him with direction. And this is what you need to do. But in order for him to be prosperous, how short would that trip have been had he not figured out light and air? [01:38:29] Speaker B: Yeah. And also waste termination, because you got to remember, there was a hole on both sides, the top and the bottom of the boat. So you could let air in, would give you enough buoyancy. But I'm sure with a lot of people living in that thing, they would probably need to cleanse the inner vessel, let's just say that. But luckily, they also had the hole in the bottom of the boat that they could probably shovel it all into in the middle and put it in the ocean. So that would have been a really short. [01:38:58] Speaker A: I mean, I look at Nephi, looking at these people and know you're still confused. And just to sum up what he's saying, the spirit will inspire, but it's up to you to walk. [01:39:09] Speaker B: There you go. I love it. We appreciate you listening, man. If you've made it through all 98 minutes of this, then you're awesome. But we expect that. We expect you to make it through 100 minutes of this each week. I'm just kidding. We don't expect anything. We appreciate you sharing it with your friends, though we do appreciate the reviews that we have gotten on various podcasting sites. We appreciate how much that kind of helps spread the word of the podcast. If you have any questions or comments or would just love to add some of your perspective and insight into this discussion, it's hard for me to imagine that you probably don't have some thoughts that you would like to share. We love reading through that stuff. You can get a hold of us at [email protected]. We love you. We appreciate you. Until next week. Bye.