2 Nephi 11 - 19

[00:00:15] Speaker A: Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the add. Add on Education network podcast, where we take a look at the weekly come follow me discussions and try to add a little insight. Insight. Insight and unique perspective. Your host, Jason Lloyd, here in the studio with our friend and the show's producer, Nate Pyfer. Hello. Hello, Nate. [00:00:34] Speaker B: Hello. You need to get right up on your mic, right? [00:00:36] Speaker A: I don't think I can get much more on. [00:00:38] Speaker B: You're right now you're right. There you are. Just feel a lot louder than you. Yeah. You were just working the mic like a great live singer would. [00:00:48] Speaker A: You just came in hot, man. You are ready to go. [00:00:51] Speaker B: Well, maybe that's what it is. [00:00:52] Speaker A: You're excited. This is Isaiah chapters for you at home. Wondering what we're talking about this week. This is second Nephi chapters eleven through 19, if I recall. And Nate's been blowing up my phone all week with great thoughts. And we'll see. Excited for tonight. [00:01:10] Speaker B: They're any good? [00:01:11] Speaker A: They're good. They're good. We could talk a little bit about the name of Jesus. And I say name, but really, I guess what I should say is names. Speaking of names, should we skip forward towards the end of this lesson and read one verse? Just kind of introduce ourselves into names? [00:01:30] Speaker B: Yep. [00:01:31] Speaker A: Where do you want to go with this? [00:01:32] Speaker B: Let's go do it. [00:01:33] Speaker A: Okay. We'll bounce around a little bit, folks, as we cover this. This is second Nephi chapter. I want to say 19, not 19. Yeah, it is 19. All right. 19, verse six. This is a verse that we are all very familiar with. For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given. Now, before I even get too far down this, do you see the hebrew poetry? Right? Unto us a child, and then in the next line, unto us a son. So, son, child, parallel, right? Born, given parallel. These are the parallel poetic structures that Isaiah is famous for. And the government shall be upon his shoulder. [00:02:18] Speaker B: Love it. [00:02:19] Speaker A: And his name shall be called. So this is wonderful, counselor. [00:02:25] Speaker B: But a butter, but a. But. [00:02:30] Speaker A: Eight, seven, seven. [00:02:31] Speaker B: Cash. Now, come on, dude. It sounds just like that ad, right? [00:02:38] Speaker A: Got you, baby. [00:02:40] Speaker B: You weren't ready for that one. [00:02:41] Speaker A: I'm dying over here. [00:02:45] Speaker B: I don't know how I'm going to be doing my super edit of this later, because, you know, I'm going to have to squeeze both the cash settlement commercial and handles Messiah. [00:02:56] Speaker A: I did not see that coming. [00:02:59] Speaker B: Oh, man. Even as I just said the words, I'm just like, I'm going to hell. All right, what are we doing? [00:03:05] Speaker A: Sorry. [00:03:05] Speaker B: Keep going. [00:03:06] Speaker A: So his name shall be called, and then it drops those names. Right. So let me ask you this question. [00:03:10] Speaker B: And I do love these verses, too. I'm sorry. I don't mean to make light of any of this. [00:03:14] Speaker A: This is good. This is good. I have no problem with it. How many names did they say he was going to be called then? It do we dare counsel him? [00:03:22] Speaker B: Wonderful counselor, the prince of peace. I don't know. I can think of four, at least in the next line. They're off the top of my head. [00:03:29] Speaker A: There you go. And I think most people would count five if they're looking at this. And they would be reading it with the commas. [00:03:34] Speaker B: Oh, wait. Wonderful counselor are two different things, right? [00:03:38] Speaker A: Yeah. They have a comma between the two. [00:03:40] Speaker B: Okay, so there's five. Because I was thinking, wonderful counselor. I was like, you are counselor. He's just a wonderful counselor. [00:03:45] Speaker A: No, you're right. What? Yeah. Nate, you're on this one. Let's go, let's go. No, I hope you guys catch this. The translators didn't because they put a comma between wonderful and counselor. And the song does the same thing, right? It does. His name shall be called wonderful counselor. Yeah. As two different names. But look at the other names in this one when they say. Let's start with the last one, the prince of peace. So prince is an adjective here used with peace. Right. He's a prince of peace. Look at the one right before mighty God, everlasting Father. But mighty God fits the same pattern. Right. Everlasting describes your father. Right. And then mighty describes God. And so every single title has a descriptor in front of it. And then you get this wonderful. No, it's wonderful, counselor. Yes. Wonderful is describing Counselor just as mighty is describing God and everlasting is describing father. So it's not five names, it's four. And four takes on significance, symbolism. God has been given four names. [00:05:02] Speaker B: I like it. Keep going. Let's go down this. [00:05:04] Speaker A: Ready? That's it for here. Right here. [00:05:07] Speaker B: Here's a question. In the Book of Mormon, is there a comma in the Book of Mormon? Are these verses in the Book of Mormon? [00:05:16] Speaker A: It is in the Book of Mormon. And they also have the comma. Really? Yeah. [00:05:20] Speaker B: That bums me out a little bit. [00:05:22] Speaker A: If we want to go down this road, please, let's skip back a few verses to even a few chapters. This is something that's commonly discussed. I don't know if it's still in your book of Mormon. I've got an old book of Mormon. I don't know if it's still here in the newer book of Mormons. So if you have a newer book of Mormon, you can tell me. Chapter twelve, verse 16. And upon all the ships of the sea. And upon all the ships of Tarshish. And upon all the pleasant pictures. Yes. And this is chapter twelve, verse 16. If you look at the footnotes to 16, at least in the old, the greek septuagint has ships of the sea. The Hebrew has the ships of Tarshish. The Book of Mormon has both, showing that the brass plates had lost neither phrase. So let me try to explain. This actually comes from sperry. Sydney Sperry. Is that Sydney? [00:06:11] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:06:12] Speaker A: It's got to be Sydney, right? [00:06:14] Speaker B: You're asking the wrong dude. [00:06:16] Speaker A: Okay, so he really put BYU on the map. He went out, got an advanced degree, came over, kick started the religious program at BYU. They have the sperry symposium every year. Brilliant scholar. And this is some work that he did when he noticed there's a couple of versions of the Bible. We have the Hebrew Bible, and we have the Greek Bible. And I'm not talking about just Old Testament versus New Testament. I'm talking about when Alexander the Great conquered the world around 323 bc, Greek became the international language, the lingua franca that everyone spoke. The Old Testament was also translated into Greek to fit universally with the spoken language. And there's a whole legend behind this that it took 70 scholars, 70 days, and that's why it's called the Septuagint, because the 70 describing how this book was translated and how miraculously it was, that's the greek version of the Old Testament. And now you would think the Hebrew is what the Greek is translated from. The Hebrew would be older, right? But unfortunately, not the hebrew text that we have. The masoretic text, is actually younger, if you will. The versions that we have, around 900 ad, 1100 ad, not as old as the Greek. And there are translational differences. And in this verse, in the Hebrew, so you'll notice the poems, what we're talking about, what we just barely highlighted in the names. Isaiah is doing it all over the place. So you look at verse 15, and upon every high tower and upon every fenced wall. He's talking about a high tower and a fenced wall in parallel with each other. So you go to verse 16, the ships of the sea and upon the ships of tarshish, those are parallel with each other. So in the Septuagint, let's go back to this footnote. The greek septuagint has ships of the sea, but it's missing the ships of Tarshish. And in the Hebrew, they have the ships of tarshish, but it's missing the ships of the sea. And in both of them, they have these parallel lines with the ships of the sea upon all the ships of Tarsheth. Those are supposed to be parallel. And then you have this third little and all the pleasant pictures. I don't know what pleasant pictures has to do with any of this. [00:08:47] Speaker B: My buddy Eric Robertson, it's the name of his music project. He also has a podcast. Oh, yeah, men who love God. It's really great, actually. But when I read that again today, I was like, I bet you that's where Eric got his artist name, pleasant pictures. [00:09:02] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:09:03] Speaker B: I don't even know what it means, but I like it. [00:09:05] Speaker A: I don't think anybody knows what it. [00:09:08] Speaker B: Because if you're listening out there, you can tell us what if you. If anybody out there knows what it means, get a hold of us at [email protected] and tell us what pleasant pictures means. [00:09:19] Speaker A: All right, well, we'll dive into this a little bit. But so what Sperry saw in this is because the greek version was leaving out one line and making it parallel with the pleasant pictures. And the Hebrew was leaving out one line and making it parallel with the pleasant pictures. He said, whoa, whoa, whoa. Neither one of these is parallel with pleasant pictures. There's something off here. And because the Book of Mormon included both the Hebrew and the Greek, then he's translating from an older source where that line wasn't lost. So Sperry took this as an example of how Joseph smith is using a third source that was older than both the greek version and the Hebrew. [00:10:00] Speaker B: It's awesome. [00:10:01] Speaker A: Great scholarship, right? [00:10:02] Speaker B: That's awesome. Yeah. [00:10:03] Speaker A: When we find the Dead Sea Scrolls and we translate the dead sea Scrolls. Dead sea scrolls have Isaiah, the great Isaiah scroll in there. And so we think, well, the Dead Sea Scrolls predates the Septuagint version that we have predates the hebrew text. So surely this is going to have the answer to the problem. We go there, and it doesn't, it matches the masoretic text. It doesn't have what we see in the Greek. So it doesn't necessarily support what we're seeing here. But there has been subsequent scholar work done on this. And going back to that pleasant pictures and all the pleasant pictures, what does pleasant pictures have to do with the ships of the sea? And so here's where it gets interesting. The word pictures in Hebrew only shows up once in the entirety of the Bible. We're trying to figure out how to translate this word that only shows up once, so we don't get to compare it with anything else to know how to translate it. And the root word from which it is derived shows up zero times. So this is a word that Isaiah uses that we have no other use case anywhere else in the world to try to figure this out. [00:11:14] Speaker B: So we can't cross reference it with the other uses to figure out what he means by it. [00:11:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Which makes it difficult. Right. Now, there's a city north of Israel called Ugarit that was destroyed by the Assyrians coming through and wiping everything out. [00:11:31] Speaker B: Right as they were want to do. [00:11:33] Speaker A: Yep. And Ugarit wrote, they had this library that was destroyed, and in there all sorts of records that were preserved. And these records that were preserved. Ugarit. So they used a language they call, we call today Ugaritic, which is very similar to Hebrew, except for instead of writing right to left, they actually wrote left to right, like we do today. But the words are very, very close to each other. They're very similar. And we find a root word that matches this pictures in their language, which means ships. No way. Yeah. And so now, all of a sudden, we're looking at it, and the Greek and the Hebrew were both being parallel with the pleasant boats, the pleasant ships that were out in the sea. Right. And so the Old Testament doesn't necessarily get this right. And I think we need to exercise some caution with what we take with the book of Mormon trying to say, oh, this is an older source, and it's proving this wrong. And I don't know the Book of Mormon and how it's translated and what we get, in fact. So this is where I kind of got off on this tangent. When we look at the comma that was supplied there, there are no commas in the hebrew text. That's editorial liberties. And Joseph Smith writing this down, for all we know, he's quoting sections of the Old Testament to write this in. When Joseph Smith describes the Book of Mormon, I want us to note that he says it is the most correct, not that it is. And so sometimes when we get excited and see some of these things, we might run ahead of ourselves and say, oh, this is. And it's worth going down that road. It's worth looking at it and certainly looking at it as evidence. But it's also nice to keep researching and researching and maybe not discredit some of the Bible for what it is and what it isn't. If that makes any sense. [00:13:33] Speaker B: Totally, dude. The more you know, the more you know. Let's keep going. [00:13:39] Speaker A: So I started us down the right road when we were talking about names of Christ, and then I derailed us. [00:13:46] Speaker B: No, dude, I derailed us completely. [00:13:48] Speaker A: Keep going. I know that you were excited to talk about the names of Christ. Is this a good place for you to jump in and run on this, or do you want me to go somewhere else? [00:13:58] Speaker B: No, I think I don't have anything, I don't think profound necessarily to say or whatnot. But Jason and I were talking a little bit this week. I had a really good family kind of scripture study with my kids, and they gave some great perspective as kids also want to do. At times, I don't think, without realizing it, but we were reading and talking about something, and it kept referring to Christ as the lamb. We were even reading in tonight. I mean, it says the lamb, I think, I don't know, 20 times within the space of like four verses or something like that. And my kids are like, why is this the name that they keep using? And I'm like, that's a fantastic question. I'm like, why? Let's talk about what the lamb means. Let's talk about. Let's try to understand this. Let's try to do that. And it led to this really great discussion. But this discussion kind of got back around to with all of these different names that Christ is referred to as. What a great exercise that I don't think I've been very good about. But we're going to try to be a lot better about as a family now going, when we read the names that we're just so familiar with, you and I, when we read the lamb, we're like, we know who this is talking about. It's talking about Jesus because we've read it so many times. But my kids highlighted a really beautiful thing, which is, why is that the name being used in context of these verses or of this story? And a light bulb kind of went on for me that it's like that is something we absolutely should be considering, I think maybe more often than we do, or at least for me. Again, I hate speaking for everybody else. And so I don't mean to, but I'm so used to just seeing so many of the different names of Christ used in the scriptures throughout the years that I catch myself now not really spending time to think about why they didn't just say Jesus, right? Why is this the name that was used? And so I hit up Jason and it kind of, again, aligned flawlessly with what we're talking about this week. It's something we're going to try to do and that we would just encourage those of you listening as you're doing your own personal scripture study is to maybe be a little bit more aware of when we see these different names of Christ being used, spending a minute to ask ourselves why this name in context or relation to this story? And really when we got into what the lamb was, and I helped my children kind of understand covenant making, and then I opened it up to them, like, why do you think? And my son was like, oh, well, a lamb is gentle and it's meek. And I'm just like, yes, that's not even where I was going with that. And we talked all about that. And then I'm going, what are some of the other names of Christ? And they bring up the shepherd. I'm like, isn't that the beautiful contrast between the two things? And we ended up talking about the covenants of the lamb's blood over the door and lifted up. And I even brought up, hey, it uses the word lifted up here. What do you think that means? And I'm trying to lead them, obviously, to Christ being lifted up on the cross. And my daughter's like, I think it means, like, when we're resurrected or when we're lifted up again from the grave. And I'm over on my couches going like, out of the mouths of babes, baby. [00:17:33] Speaker A: That's how Jacob sees it, right? [00:17:35] Speaker B: So anyways, I guess all I'm saying is, all of that is to say, as we read these names, one, we have talked about this a little bit, but it's always a good chance to reiterate every single one of these names is a name that we should strive to take upon ourselves. And when we take the sacrament each week, that is something that we commit to do. And so maybe as we're reading the book of Mormon this year, I know Jason and I are going to try to be better about this. As we go through the discussions each week, it's going to be a thing that we want to highlight each week is what is the name being used? Why that name in this context? And then what can we do to take upon ourselves that name? Right? What can we do to be the lamb in context or in relationship to what it's being used in scriptures? All right. I feel like that was thorough, right? [00:18:27] Speaker A: Yes, I think so. I love what you're saying. As far as we take upon us, the name of him. And what name are we taking upon him? What does it mean to take his name upon it and to maybe explore that possibility? And as we were coming up here, I mean, one of the names that you pointed out that we use all the time is he is the one. [00:18:55] Speaker B: That's right. One, the chosen one. Oneness at oneness. Atonement. Right. It's a name that I've been thinking about over the past few days. [00:19:12] Speaker A: As. [00:19:12] Speaker B: I'm trying to think of how I can make. Again, let's just keep. I teach an amazing class of 16 and 17 year olds, and I know we talk a lot about this, but it's hard to execute this where you go, how can we make a classroom in a church setting, somewhere where we can be uplifted but still be able to be honest and talk about, especially when you have a room full of teenagers about ready to leave out into the world by themselves? I feel the weight of the responsibility of that calling. And it's a big deal to me to want to leave these young adults with, hopefully tools or with, even if it's just some spiritual anchors and some moments along the way that they can rely on when inevitably the storm will come. And so to do that, I have to also remember that the experience that these young adults are having is totally different than it was for me in the. If I'm trying to accomplish that goal of having good, honest, open, but, like, getting somewhere uplifting conversations, I don't want to be afraid to try to tackle very real things in a classroom setting with them. Right. Is the premise of what I'm saying here. But at the same time, I also just want to make sure that my class is uplifting and that at the end of the day, our goal is oneness. Right. Our goal isn't to draw lines, battle lines between opinions, between political ideas, between social ideas, between all those things that even if those things do exist in us outside of a classroom, that while we're in that classroom, our goal is to be at one with the one. And so the one or the chosen one is a name that's kind of been ruminating a little bit. I might kind of pop in and give you some more thoughts, kind of as we go through this, but that's at least the premise of where I'm at. [00:21:23] Speaker A: I just want to feed on that a little bit more, I guess feed off of that. From what you're saying, when we go back where this started and we look at the names of God, I find it interesting that the first name that is mentioned in that is wonderful, counselor. Wait a second. Isn't he God? Why isn't he a dictator? Why isn't he just telling us everything that we need to do? Why is it that his first name, or at least how they're presenting this, is as a counselor? And the example that you give me as you're sitting down with your family and the kids are asking questions, or maybe you as a parent are asking them questions, why do you think that he's using a lamb rather than sitting them down and saying, this is what a lamb does and this is what it is, and you're feeding them a bunch of lines and maybe they're getting distracted or maybe it's not as significant to them. But when you turn that around as a counselor, to engage them and having that conversation to where they feel like they're involved and they're a part of it and it's one with it, right? [00:22:33] Speaker B: But, dude, they're one with it. Why that word is such an amazing word in context of this, is that you have four or five people in this conversation, individuals, but that are one. And like, what does that truly mean? Right? What does it truly mean then when we are saying we take upon ourselves the name of Christ, are we literally becoming him? No, but are we becoming one with him? So this is why this word, and again, I'm sorry to interject here, but this is why that word and the chosen one continues to just, well, even. [00:23:09] Speaker A: Know, even the name Emmanuel, which means God is with us. [00:23:15] Speaker B: You know, Amy Grant's making an appearance right there with no dude. No el shaddai. We're keeping el Shaddai on some dude. Emmanuel goes hard, by the way, too. [00:23:26] Speaker A: But, you know, el Shaddai is also. [00:23:29] Speaker B: You had to do it. All right, dude, we get a double dose of Amy Grant right here. [00:23:33] Speaker A: Okay? I don't see a negative. [00:23:35] Speaker B: I don't either. Emmanuel means what God is with. [00:23:40] Speaker A: Know, it's fun as we see the unity here. And I think God is kind of balancing this. As you look at these names. A wonderful counselor is not somebody who's telling you everything that you need to do. And in the beginning, God created a plan in which the central tenet of that plan was our agency, our choice, not being told what to do. Let me tell you, I have a solution. Let me advise you and let me counsel with you and let me help you so that you learn to do this yourself. And that's how he starts this comma. [00:24:14] Speaker B: Does this name a disservice? It does, because by the way. We also had a counselor in the pre earth life as well. That was not a wonderful counselor, but was also offering counsel. And it's been a pretty prominent vocal theme of even our past few conferences, which is take heed on where you're taking heed. Right. Like, be more deliberate with where you're getting your counsel from. [00:24:39] Speaker A: And it's a central theme to Isaiah. We saw it last week when it says, woe unto those who light their own fire. Right. Walk in the light of their own sparks. You shall have this at my hand. You shall lay down in sorrow, as opposed to waiting on the Lord. And it's going to be a major theme in tonight when we're reading what Isaiah is saying, because what happens here historically, Assyria is preparing to destroy all of the area next to Israel. And remember, Israel is split into two kingdoms. In the north, you have Israel, which is Ephraim, and the Lord actually calls them Ephraim and Manassa. If you look at second Nephi, chapter 19, which is where we're at, but the last verse, 21, Manassa, Ephraim and Ephraim Manassa, they together shall be against Judah for all this. His anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out. And think about this. Ephraim and Manasseh. Manasseh and Ephraim. These two symbolically, literally represent Joseph. They're his two sons, his double portion. His double portion. And so Joseph and Judah have this interesting relationship. Now, you remember when Joseph went to go find his brothers? Judah tries to save Joseph. They want to kill him on the spot. And he's like, no, let's dig this pit and throw him in there as a plan to try to save them. And then the idea is, while they're all out in that day, he was going to come back and let Joseph out of the pit and get him out of there, save him from his brothers. But they end up selling him to the caravan, and then he's distraught, right? So there's an interesting play between Judah and Joseph. And I almost forget where I'm trying to go with this, but I feel like they have this. Israel splits into two powerful kingdoms, the north and the south. The north is Ephraim Manasseh. It's Joseph. The south is Judah. And as much as they try to save each other, there is enmity there. There's kind of this brotherly rivalry. And the idea is that in the end, Joseph's seed, Ephraim Manasseh, particularly Ephraim, are going to play a role in saving the Jews that the gospel will go from Ephraim to the Jews. And Ephraim has this responsibility to bring them all back together. So you have this Israel that's split into two kingdoms and this rivalry, but this rivalry is going to be mended and Joseph is going to be trying to save Judah. And the reason I bring this is this is something that's in Isaiah's writings. But I find significance in the fact that Christ, who is typified by Judah, the southern kingdom and the Jews and what they go through and being afflicted by the world is like Jesus being afflicted by the Jews. This is microcosm, right? Well, I don't think it's a coincidence that Jesus'father is Joseph and Joseph saves Jesus by taking him out of the land and bringing him down into Egypt, and then he's going to bring him and restore him back into his land. And so I look at even the Jews as they're being persecuted by the Nazis who are out there to try to stamp them out of existence. That a lot of Ephraim in the way of the tribes here in the US, if you will, in the UK, going and establishing this land and saving them and pulling them out and bringing them into there, is not in a sense, unifying these two great families, these two great tribes that were split, divided together, and that all of this really does come back to Christ. There's a lot of imagery between Judah and Joseph that I think play out in Christ's life in modern times, in ancient times, that kind of in there in Israel, as we're talking about some. [00:28:47] Speaker B: Of this awesome insight. Just keep going. [00:28:51] Speaker A: Now, as we're talking about names, maybe it's even worth mentioning. Isaiah's name, always, isaiah's name quite literally means Jesus is Jehovah. So when he's talking about the Jews and he says, the ox knows his master, the ass is his master's crib, the ox knows his purchaser and the ass his master's crib. But my people doth not know, they don't consider, they don't realize all of this time he's writing about all the things that they're going to go through and how this God's going to come and save them. And if you wait on the Lord, he's going to provide a light and he's prophesying about the coming of the messiah, the redemption of the world. And it's fascinating to me that all of these prophecies, as great as they are, and his name, even his name, Jesus is Jehovah. Isn't that testifying that Jehovah is going to become flesh, that is going to become Christ, who's going to save his people, even his name himself? When you start talking about the name and context of the stories, that was just something that kind of hit me up. [00:29:59] Speaker B: Great. Let's keep going. [00:30:00] Speaker A: All right, I'm going to go back to the beginning of this second Nephi, chapter eleven. And, Nate, if there's anything you want to interject or bounce around, feel free to stop me or jump in there. Yeah. So, chapter eleven. As we begin, this Nephi is talking again. And now Jacob spake many more things unto my people at that time. Nevertheless, only these things have I caused to be written. Verse two. And now I, Nephi, write more of the words of Isaiah, for my soul delighteth in his words. For I will liken his words unto my people, and I will send them forth unto all my children. For he verily saw my redeemer even as I have seen him. And my brother Jacob has also seen him as I have seen him. Wherefore, I will send their words forth unto my children to prove unto them that my words are true. Wherefore, by the words of three, God has said, I will establish my word. Nevertheless, God sendeth more witnesses, and he proveth all of his words. I like that introduction. And we learn that Jacob saw Christ at a very early age. Now consider this. He was born in the wilderness. I think they were in the wilderness for about eight years, and they come on the boat. I don't know how much longer after they get onto shore, before Lehi passes away. But I get the impression that it's not long. And Lehi says to Jacob, blessed art thou. Thou art blessed like those who beheld the ministry of the savior in the flesh, subtly, it sounds like he's saying, well, how are those people blessed? Well, because they saw him. It sounds like he's kind of nodding to, you're blessed because you saw your redeemer. And if it's too subtle, he follows up with the following verse, saying, yea, thou hast beheld the glory of. So Nephi is here validating the same thing. But if we talk about when Jacob saw God, if Lehi is talking to him after they landed here, he could not have been that old. He had to have been extremely young. So let no man forsake you for your youth, and know that you're never too young to seek the Lord to try to see his blessings. And I appreciate that from Nephi and Jacob that as much as they love to hear their father teach these things. And we talked about this last week. Jacob wasn't satisfied just enough to hear that his dad saw the destruction of Jerusalem. But he also has to see that vision. And it's not enough that other people have seen the savior. He also desires to see him. And that desire to see that. It's the same thing we see in Nephi, who wanted to see the tree of life, who wanted to see everything that his father saw, who had that desire to do that. I think it's important that we get this preface into the Isaiah chapters, because the very first thing that Nephi is going to launch into in chapter twelve, verse one, the word of the Lord. Excuse me, the word that Isaiah, the son of Amos, saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall come to pass in the last days when the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains and shall be exalted above the hills, and all nations flow into it, and many people shall go up. He's talking about the establishment of the Lord's house. Where do you see the Lord? Where do you go visit the Lord? Do you not go see him at his house? If you expect to see somebody, isn't that the purpose for going to their house? And so I think Nephi is prefacing these Isaiah chapters with, we saw the Lord because we desired to see the Lord as part of his lead in to Isaiah, talking about the temple and the role of the temple to go with this, in psalms, chapter 24, we get a temple recommend interview. And in the temple recommend interview, they're asking, who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? Who shall go into the mountain of the Lord? And it says, only those that have clean hands. So here we go. Psalm 24. And he's talking about the verse three, who shall ascend into the hill or mountain of the Lord, and who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands and a pure heart, and who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully, he shall receive the blessings from the Lord, and the righteous from the God of his salvation. This is the generation or circle of them that seek thee, that seek thy face, o God of Jacob. So who goes into the temple of the Lord? The generation or the circle? The group that pursue the face of the Lord. That's the purpose for them going there. [00:35:00] Speaker B: Let me throw something out. [00:35:01] Speaker A: Let's hear it. [00:35:03] Speaker B: When the scripture talks about the mountain of the Lord, on the mountain of the Lord, I mean, is it saying, basically, the Salt lake temple, dude. Is it saying the temple in Salt Lake city, baby? The mountain of the Lord. In the mountain of the Lord. Come on, man, tell me. This is telling us that Utah is Zion? Dude, just come on, say it. Okay, so apparently you don't think that that's the answer to the right. Answer to the question. [00:35:30] Speaker A: I'm just trying to see where you got it. Did I misread this? [00:35:33] Speaker B: Read the verse again. [00:35:34] Speaker A: Is it in psalms or in. [00:35:35] Speaker B: No, the second Nephi verse. [00:35:36] Speaker A: Oh, sorry, let me go back. Are you saying in verse three and many people. No, sorry. The top of the mountains and shall be exalted above the hills? [00:35:47] Speaker B: No, the verse before that. [00:35:48] Speaker A: That is the verse, right? That's what you're talking. No verse. It shall come to pass in the last days when the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains. Yes. [00:35:58] Speaker B: That's all I'm asking. What do you mean, the mountains? Established in the mountains. Why else would it say that, dude? What is the mountain of the lord? Is it the temple? [00:36:06] Speaker A: It is the temple. [00:36:07] Speaker B: And where does it say it's going to be established? [00:36:09] Speaker A: In the top of the mountains. All right. [00:36:10] Speaker B: Salt Lake city, baby. [00:36:12] Speaker A: Okay, but at the same time, isn't that in, like, the Salt lake valley as opposed to the top of the mountains? [00:36:17] Speaker B: No, dude, the verse doesn't make any sense. [00:36:20] Speaker A: It's redundant. [00:36:21] Speaker B: Unless we actually read what it is in the mountains. All I'm saying is it's a redundant verse. Unless we're saying that Isaiah prophesied that the temple was going to be built up in the mountains in Utah, baby. [00:36:33] Speaker A: And I'll give you that. I'll give you that. And I'll go into the next verse where it says, and this is where I think it's a big difference. Right? Right. [00:36:42] Speaker B: All. [00:36:44] Speaker A: In the Old Testament, Moses tried to bring them into the presence of God, but they would not and said, you do it for us. Right. The whole purpose of the temple is to bring them into the presence of God. And so instead they had a high priest enter into the presence of God for them in here, Lehi sees God, talks to his kids. And Nephi also desires to enter his presence rather than shirk. That Jacob also desires to enter his presence rather than shirk. That is interesting when they talk about the temple being established in the last days, verse three, many people should go and say, come ye, and let us go up into the mountain of the Lord to the house of the God of Jacob, and he will teach us of his ways and we will walk in his paths. That's different. Isaiah saw a time when it's not let the high priest go into the mountain of the Lord and do it for us. It's let us go into the mountain of the Lord. This is such a huge shift, and I think we miss it when we're reading Isaiah. Nephi doesn't miss it. Jacob doesn't miss it. Let us go into the mountain of the Lord. They have that privilege. They have that blessing. They are going to. When you read the book of Mormon, notice how many times you read about the temple, the temple of bountiful, the temple of Zarahamla, the temple of. They build these temples, and where does Christ appear to them when he comes in? Third, Nephi, is it not his house, the temple? [00:38:27] Speaker B: Wow. It's a great point. I don't think I've ever thought that all the way through. [00:38:31] Speaker A: But yeah, for Nephi, as he's reading these words, this can't apply to old Israel because they wouldn't say, let us go into the mountain of the Lord. They asked somebody to do it for them. They had a high priest do that. [00:38:47] Speaker B: All the way in through. It's like, so we're talking hundreds of. [00:38:51] Speaker A: Years after this is you have to ask the question, would God have let others enter? If Israel wanted to enter into the presence of God, instead of having a high priest do it, would he have allowed it? And I think the Book of Mormon is evidence that, yes, clearly, when you have a people that wanted to see the face of the Lord, he split them off, provided them with the priesthood and the temple and the ability to enter. He has never denied anybody his presence. Only those that refused it are the ones that are left out. [00:39:27] Speaker B: That's an amazing thing to think through because the mountain, right. You can go hike up the of. There's room for everyone. This is what we were talking about earlier. [00:39:38] Speaker A: This is what we were talking about earlier. I like this. [00:39:40] Speaker B: I had a great home teaching discussion today with a good friend, Jacob, and he made a great point because we were talking about the great and spacious building again, because pride is once again referred to in some of these verses coming up and we'll get into that later. But made a great point, which is the great and spacious building at the end of the day still has walls, right. As much as people are trying to get in, there is still almost an exclusivity. The idea of it almost. It's like you want to be part of the whatever, but at a certain point, there's a limitation to what that ever can achieve, where a mountain is the opposite, right? It's expansive. Let's get everybody on here. There's room for everyone. And that led me back to what we were talking about, the children of Israel. But even as part of the discussion, it was like, how great is that? Even for our children that maybe aren't old enough to be going in the temple, to be know, official temple work. What an amazing way to prepare them for that, than go up in the mountains and breathe and not have cell phone reception, right. And touch grass a little bit, but really just go. This is, look around you, look at the expansiveness, look at the limitlessness, whatever, of this beautiful thing that God's created. Just listen, you're closer physically to God. This is where God shows himself to his prophets all throughout ancient times. It's like there's so many things that we can be doing, I feel like, to teach our kids really to go and be in the presence of God, like the old prophets used to do, even up in the mountain. It's like you don't need the building, you don't need the building to still have the opportunity to be invited to go and seek God where God is. And he tells us that that's where he is. I mean, that's all we've been reading about. I just think it's beautiful. Yeah, I have some kids that aren't old enough to go to the temple, but what an amazing thing to do to be. And as we're teaching them like this, this is why I care so much about you not being glued to a tv all day. This is why your mom cares so much about making you guys go play outside, right? Like there is something around us that is still. Again, I know this is kind of like granola of me or whatever, but I just deeply feel that there's connection to nature. We even talked about the parable, right, of when Jesus bent down to ride in the dirt when the woman was caught up in adultery. It's like even Jesus was reconnecting, you know what I mean, with the dirt. Like, there's just something really beautiful about. I love how mountains continue to be brought up, the mountain of the Lord in the mountains, and then go out, go out and actually experience that and then be like, oh, yeah, this is totally where it makes sense, why this is where God, men would go to meet God, go to be with God. [00:42:43] Speaker A: Well, and you see a parallel with what happens in the book of Mormon, leading them away, giving them Melchizedek priesthood, establishing a temple and allowing them back into the presence of God. With the New Testament, when you do have a temple established in a people that refuse to enter into the presence of God, when God is with them in their presence, they refuse him. He lets them have their temple. He lets them have their high priest. But to his followers, where does he deliver the sermon, the sermon on the mount? Where does he take Peter, James and John? Is it not the mount of transfiguration? And then Gethsemane on the Mount of Olives? And you think about these events and what he's doing and taking his apostles up to know him, to see him and to see who he is. Isn't it the mountain today? The mountain is the lord's house, the temple. And Nephi sees Isaiah's writings. Isaiah sees our time and perhaps Nephi's time. He's describing a people that want to be in the presence of God for themselves. And I think we gloss over that when it says, come, let us go into the mountain. We don't realize that the ancient way of things when Isaiah wrote this was never all of us get to go into the holy of holies. It was exclusive. It was the opposite. Only one person got to go on that on a special occasion and represented the people for that. So this marks a big change in theology and practice. When Isaiah says, this is what it will be like later on, let's keep going to. I mean, he talks about idolatry. He talks about loftiness. In fact, this is probably a really good one to pause on when you talk about asking questions of your kids. I think this is a good one that we could even ask our kids or have this discussion as we're reading this in chapter twelve, verse twelve, when it talks about the Lord of hosts will soon come upon all nations, yea, upon everyone, yea, upon all the proud and lofty, and upon everyone who was lifted up, and he shall be brought low. So verse 13, yea, and the day of the Lord shall come upon all the cedars of Lebanon, for they are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, and upon all the high mountains and upon all the hills, and upon all the nations which are lifted up and upon every people. And so as I read that verse, and I ask the question to my kids, is the Lord really looking at the cedars of Lebanon and being like, oh, man, those are too tall. I need to go get my axe and chop those down? Is that what he's really concerned with? Or the oaks of Bashan? Man, those trees, they're just too tall. Someone's got to fell those trees down. I don't think the Lord is literally talking about trees here. And so, just as you asked your daughter, what is the significance of a lamb? I think there's deep symbolism. Go to verse 17. And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low. So what is the Lord comparing men to? He's comparing them to trees. But wait, when we are talking about the names of God, isn't the tree of life the name of God? And so isn't he saying that we are also trees? He is a tree, and he keeps talking about the fruit. Now, you think about the symbolism of this tree, that when he's going to Jerusalem and he's hungry and it's a fig tree, right? Fig tree or date tree? I think it's a fig tree. And he goes and it's got all the leaves and it looks like it's got to have fruit on it, and there's no fruit. And so he curses it and it withers it and dies. Right? And it's not about the tree, just like this is not about him necessarily chopping these trees down. But when somebody, in this case, this is what Israel is going to launch into when they talk about Israel. Sorry. This is what Isaiah is talking about. When he launches into his tirade about Israel. He says, outwardly, you draw near to me with your lips, but your hearts are far from me. You're sitting there observing the rights, you're offering sacrifices, you're punishing the wicked and putting them to death and stoning them and doing whatever. Outwardly, you're saying we're making our sacrifices, we're doing our things. But you are so far from approaching me, you've disconnected on that. It's like a tree that's showing every sign of bearing fruit, but when you go to find the fruit, it's missing. And he makes even stronger connections to this tree and to this fruit. Verse 15. When he sings a song about his vineyard. And then will I sing to my well beloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My well beloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill. And remember, this is where he says, what more could I have done for my vineyard? And he's talking about this vineyard that's not producing the fruit that he's expecting it to produce. So he says, I'm going to tear down the wall, I'm going to tear down the hedge, I'm going to tear down all of its protection. And he even says in verse six, and I will lay it waste. It shall not be pruned nor digged, but there shall come up briars and thorns. And I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. And that's where I want to take this point when we seek to counsel outside of the Lord instead of following the spirit. And see, this is what President Nielsen was talking about. He says, the days come that if you do not have the spirit, you will not be able to survive spiritually. Right? They've lost that spirit. It doesn't matter what you're doing outwardly. If you're disconnected from the spirit. The Lord says that he will cease sending his reign. What does that mean, to cease sending his reign? So if we go to Isaiah chapter 55 and see some of these verses, we're going to have to mix with some of the other Isaiah that didn't make it in verses 1011. For as the rain cometh down and the snow from heaven and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth and maketh it bring forth the bud, that it may give seed to the sower and bread to the eater. So what are we saying here again? These trees that are bringing forth fruit, why? Because they receive water. What is the key to being able to produce fruit? This water. And because you're not taking this water, I'm pulling it off. Next verse. So shall my word be that goeth forth from my mouth. It shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whithersoever I send it. What is the rain that God is sending to the earth that helps produce fruit? It is revelation. It is the spirit. You can go through all of the sacrifices, all of the actions, all of the whatever you want to call it, but if you're disconnected from the spirit, you've lost it. And you seek the counsel and light the sparks of your own ways and walk in that and you've lost it. You have to be connected to the spirit to be able to prosper, to be able to provide fruit. I'm sorry we've gone into this long tangent, but all of this is taking it back to God, comparing the people to trees just like he himself is a tree. And he was able to produce fruit because why? Because he was humble enough to do what God asked and not my will, but thy will. I wish I could not take this cup, but nevertheless I will partake of this cup. And what's in that cup? Is it not water? Is it not the spirit? Is it not what he needed to provide the fruit that would save us? [00:50:33] Speaker B: Yep. Great stuff. [00:50:37] Speaker A: There's a lot in this, Isaiah. [00:50:38] Speaker B: I know I'm bummed out that we kind of had to skim over the idolatry verses because that actually jumped out to me. [00:50:46] Speaker A: Do you want to go in them. [00:50:47] Speaker B: Just a little bit? [00:50:48] Speaker A: Let's get there. [00:50:49] Speaker B: Can I tell you the thing that jumped out at me? And then I'll let you kind of go off of because it still connects back into what I would love it. I do want to still talk about when it talks about pride and it gives very specific details of what the people are wearing and things like that. But what caught my eye about reading the idolatry is that they worship the idols that they make with their own hands. That's a really profound part of that. It's not the same thing of us worshipping God, who is the creator. It's us in theory, again, putting our. [00:51:29] Speaker A: Other gods before God, making ourselves the creator. [00:51:35] Speaker B: That's what I'm saying. And by the other gods, I mean us. Right. As fake gods. Right. We're the counterfeit gods, which is something we always get into, which is Satan's way is always the counterfeit version of the real thing. But there is how much of a disciple of art I try to be, right? I learn a lot from. Not as much if I'm a disciple of Christ, but I truly do feel like God and creation and art are one and the same. Right? So when I say a disciple of art, I mean the idea of creation. I believe in trying to learn what my place is in the universe by trying to understand the processes of creation and the godliness of creation. Right again. The reason this caught my eye is because aren't we told to create? Wasn't that what Adam and Eve were commanded to do? [00:52:39] Speaker A: Multiply and replenish the earth, but truly. [00:52:41] Speaker B: Come together and co create something? And it is interesting, is like, when does that idol become the negative thing, the thing that we've made with our hands, versus all of these incredible, beautiful things that we're commanded to do? We're commanded to create life. We're commanded to, by the way, we're commanded to make beautiful things and to praise God through music and through art and all of these things. Like, what's the line between where those things become this beautiful offering to God or the thing that we almost worship in replacing of him? And there's a discussion. I don't know if we have time to be had. And maybe we need to do it with our inevitable art podcasters. Maybe we need to have a whole episode, a special episode about this. But as I've been thinking a lot about this, it moved to beyond. Just art, right? It moved to beyond what are the other things that we're creating with our hands. And this is when pride kind of makes its way into this, which, again, now is probably still not the time to totally go all the way there. But it is interesting, these idols, quote unquote, that we almost worship in society and all of these other things. Well, you see where I'm going with this, right? But anyways. But I wanted to at least just throw that out there. I will throw it back to you to continue on this, because there is a discussion, if you have thoughts on it to be had. [00:54:17] Speaker A: But no, this is beautiful. So go to chapter 13. When the Lord says that he is going to take away from them the mighty man, the man of war, the judge, the prophet, the prudent, the ancient, the captain of 50, the honorable man, the counselor, the cunning artificer, the eloquent orator. Aren't all those good things? [00:54:40] Speaker B: Yes. [00:54:40] Speaker A: And he's cutting all of them off, and instead he's giving them, and I will give you children unto them to be their princes. And babe shall rule over them. You've lost all of these people. And instead of wisdom you're left with because you weren't righteous, all of this gets cut off, right? And he puts this in parallel. Now, this is going to go right into your pride. And maybe this is the takeoff ramp you need. And you go to the end of this chapter. In that day, will the Lord take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments? And the calls and the round tires like the moons, and the chains and the bracelets and the muffets and the bonnets and the ornaments of the legs and the headbands and the tablets and the earrings and the rings, the nose jewels, and the changeable suits of apparel. What you notice about this, it is the only other time in this chapter that you're getting into a detailed list, just like you were at the very beginning. Your prophets, your artificers, your orators, your wise men, your counselors. Wait a second. What's he saying? He's saying that all of your fine adornment are your people that have pursued wisdom in the Lord to be wise, to be those leaders. But when they have left the spirit, they left the water. It becomes like the tree without fruit, where all of that ornaments, all of that fancy, instead of being this jewel, this prize, and I think this is what you're saying, like, the creation of your hands is a good thing, but when it outgrows it, and to become this arrogant, this proud, this boastful. [00:56:25] Speaker B: And we worship that instead of who we should be worshipping, and we prioritize that over what we should. And again, go turn on news dude. And you did give me the just. I mean, you put this right on top of the tea for me. [00:56:43] Speaker A: Oh, good. [00:56:44] Speaker B: But my goodness, we asked a question. What was it a month ago? Is the great and spacious building social media? This is the most resounding yes that's ever been. I've seen. What do each of those things described? What is their ultimate purpose? The tinkling things, the flashy jewelry, all of the things. Ultimately, all of those things. What is their purpose? Look at me, hear me coming. [00:57:15] Speaker A: Make me look good. [00:57:16] Speaker B: Just pay attention to me, me. And by the way, it's like a curated me. It's not even an honest me. If we're being totally real about this. It's a curated brand. It's adornment. None of it's from within. Right? All of these things that were just described are all of the accessories. Man, this just sent my brain. Right? What is the great and spacious building told? Nephi's told what it is. It's the pride of the world. Oh, my goodness. What a beautiful description of what you have. These websites. And again, I'm speaking in generalizations here, but truly, these things are going, look at how great my life is. Look at how good I look. Look at all these awesome things I'm doing. Look at how interesting I am. Listen to my opinions on the state of affairs, listen to my comments, where the irony of all of this is really no single person is that interesting. I'm certainly not. I'm sorry for all of you out there that might think you are, but I tell this to songwriters all the time. To be fair, I really do tell this to songwriters all the time. When a lot of people are coming in, like, I'm co writing, I need this story to be my story. And I'm always like, well, maybe you're not as interesting as you think you are. Like, maybe no single person is. But we curate these things, right? We accessorize, we put on the things that make a sound so that as we're walking down the street, everybody knows we're coming. My goodness. This just slapped me across the face when I was reading this, which is just like, oh, my goodness, is the pride of the world, not the look at my curated version of life and be jealous of what I'm doing and tell me how good I look in this. And again, dude, I'm sure I'm going to be getting some feedback on this. [email protected]. Let me have it. I'm not afraid, but as I read this, the more and more I'm just, like, ultimately convinced. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Our day was absolutely seen. And look at the pride of the world. And by the way, it reaches the whole world. This is the whole thing that's crazy about it. Is it? Strangely enough, gives everybody the idea that my voice, because it can be heard, should be heard. Right. It's one of the things I love about the Freemasons. A lot of their whole premise is, like, maybe talking really isn't as important as you all think it is, you. [01:00:06] Speaker A: Know what I mean? [01:00:07] Speaker B: And we're just like, dang. So go ahead, Jason. [01:00:12] Speaker A: No, this is great. This is think. Okay, so the Lord, he's taking Jerusalem and he's personifying it. And so if Jerusalem is a person, all of their jewelry, their fine clothes, their whatever, symbolic of the prophet, the leaders, the wisdom of the people, all of that, he's going to cut them all out and strip it down to where she sits naked in the dust. But that's only half the story, because he says, just as Lehi does. He's probably pulling from Isaiah when they do all of this. Arise, get out of the dust. And I don't think we can read these isaiah chapters without diving in. Isaiah 52, awake, awake. Put on thy strength, o zion. Put on thy beautiful garments, o Jerusalem, the holy city. For henceforth there shall no more come unto thee that are unclean. Verse two. Shake thyself from the dust, arise, sit down and say same thing with isaiah 54 when they talk about, enlarge thy tents, enlarge thy borders. And all these people are coming in, and it's adorning Zion, as in, in beautiful clothes. I think Jacob describes this well in two. Nephi, chapter two. Excuse me, chapter nine, verse 28, when he says, o that cunning plan of the evil one, o the vainness and the frailties and the foolishness of men. And I think this is where you're coming from, nate. When they are learned, they think they are wise. [01:01:49] Speaker B: What a scripture. [01:01:50] Speaker A: And they hearken not unto the counsel of God for the counsel of God, for they set it aside. Supposing they know of themselves, they think they know better. [01:02:02] Speaker B: Idols that they've created with their own hands. [01:02:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:02:06] Speaker B: I do want to illustrate, like, by the way, the redemptive side of what you just said, even about social media, for whatever is worth, this is important about it. This is where you have the. What is the difference between an idol that was created with your own hands and this beautiful piece of art that was created with your own hands? Right. What is your intention behind it? Is your intention behind it still at some point? And this is what's so actually hard about social media, is that we talk about counterfeits all the time. In a lot of ways, it's a counterfeit connection, dude. We used to go out to lunch with our friends, and that's how we would catch up. Right? There isn't a beautiful thing about being able, sure to reach all of these things. But in a lot of cases, unfortunately, we sometimes let it replace almost a real connection. But it's like, okay, cool. So maybe that fine line between those things is where our hearts at, because what you just said is incredible. So it's like, cool. You're still talking about beautiful clothing. We're still talking about whatever, but is the purpose behind it? Hey, look at me. Listen to me. Me. Or is it, hey, as a community, we're actually uplifting each other. Hey, as a community, we're actually. And by the way, social media can be amazing for that type of stuff, right? Are we using it to basically gratify our own pride? And can we be honest enough with ourselves about what it is? And by the way, a lot of people. I mean, it is what it is, right? A lot of people use that for work and stuff like that. Look, dude, make your money. It is what it is. But if we do have these platforms, I guess this is where I'm saying is, like, what are we doing with it? Hopefully to further the kingdom of God and not make it about ourselves. I guess that's kind of the final before everybody just writes me back, like, oh, you're telling me I shouldn't? I'm like, dude, I have an Instagram page, too, right? Whatever. It is what it is. And by the way, I need to do less on it if I'm being totally honest with myself, too. I'm busy. I shouldn't be spending as much time as I do on that. But do you see where I'm going with this? So there's still even that fine line between the adornment of the things that are the tinkling things and the jewelries and the things like that. And instead, it goes, no, strip all of that away and put on the beautiful garment of God. Right be covered in glory and all of these things. All right, keep going. [01:04:36] Speaker A: No, this is fantastic. This is so Jacob kind of finishes this, for they set it aside. Supposing they know of themselves, wherefore their wisdom is foolishness and a profit of them not, and they shall perish. But he says it in next verse. But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God. There you go, the same thing in the next verse. Woe unto the rich, for the rich are the things of the world. But wherefore the treasure of God? It's good to be rich. Yes, I think we can take this right back to the things we've been talking about in the past with the two great commandments. Is love God still the top commandment? Or like you said, thou shalt have no other God before me. Am I putting myself as that God before him? Is all of a sudden what I'm doing more important than paying attention to God? I think that's where the trees become lofty and high. That's when he's saying the cedars of Lebanon need to be cut down because they have outgrown their roots. They have gone above what they're supposed to. They're supposed to be tall. [01:05:49] Speaker B: Well, I mean, my goodness, we're told that we need to strive to become gods. We believe that in our religion. [01:05:54] Speaker A: How can there be anything taller than being a God? [01:05:57] Speaker B: But that's the point, right? Is that we're saying, do not put any other gods before me yet be like me. This is my. [01:06:05] Speaker A: Such a fine line. [01:06:07] Speaker B: That's my point, is that it's a fine line. And I believe it literally will always come back and come down to, if we can learn to be honest enough with ourselves about what our intentions are, I'm not going to try to put any more qualifies on it of that, because I think it's nuanced and it's different for everybody. But this is how thin of a line I think that that can be. Which is why I believe this is why I love doing this podcast. It's why I like having their conversations, it's why I try to do more in my life to go where is my focus? Where is my compass pointing? Because that's how fine of a line I feel like it can be between being incredibly proud of the accomplishments that you're making in life and letting pride start eroding and consuming and making you as a person think, oh, I got this. Which then leads to, I don't need anybody else, including you. See what I mean? It's like it's always just such that fine of a line. [01:07:05] Speaker A: It's almost like pride is a natural product of even following God. Right? I mean, this is God's people that we're seeing exhibit this behavior. I can't fail. I can't be destroyed. You see how many times God's delivered us like we're invincible? Isn't that which, by the way, tells. [01:07:28] Speaker B: People all the time, too, is like, hey, look, if I got your back, then you don't need to be afraid. This is my point. [01:07:32] Speaker A: It's an outgrowing of a good, honest route. [01:07:35] Speaker B: There it is. That's it. [01:07:36] Speaker A: And that's why we have to be so careful with where we're at and do all of a sudden, it happens through history. The tower of Babel. What is that? We can get into heaven. We can do this all started, though. [01:07:54] Speaker B: From the right route, which is we want to get to heaven. [01:07:57] Speaker A: Yes. And Israel trying to form this confederacy to fight the Assyrians. We've got this. Wasn't God saying, you can stand against Egypt, let's get you out of can. But when we outgrow that and we replace. And you said it so well, Nate, when we replace God with a different God, that God being ourselves. [01:08:21] Speaker B: Good check is always ask who is saying, if you love me, keep my mean, that's for me, that's like the check mark, right? If the things that you're being asked to give love to are saying, and if you love me, keep my commandments. There's your check mark, right? Because that's to me, it's like that's where that line resides. If your God, if our God, if God himself is sitting up there and that's who we're looking to, then we can go. If you love me, keep my commandments cool, then that's my starting place. If any of the other things begin to pull away from that right or left, that, for me is at least like, it's a good temperature check, if nothing else. And by the way, that goes for our own personal intentions, right? That's how we can know if we're striving to be like God or if we're striving to replace God is whose commandments do we care more about? Our desires, our wishes, or the ones that we're being asked to do? And hopefully those align for the most part, but they don't all the time. It's such a fascinating. And we've talked about this really from kind of the beginning of the Old Testament, which is even, it's just crazy how even things that end up being destructive are still born from a correct place, literally from before this earth began. Satan's plan, quote unquote, that would have never worked. But his plan, you could still argue, was sold with the best of intentions. I want everybody to make it back. You look at Adam and Eve in the garden, this is how you can multiply and replenish the earth. This part of the process has to happen. [01:10:16] Speaker A: Be like gods. [01:10:17] Speaker B: Be like, and Jesus Christ himself, on just multiple occasions, be one with me. Be like me. I am the Father and me and the Holy Ghost, and be like us. Be like us. Be one with us. But also don't put any other gods before. It's just like, if you don't understand the nuance between those things, it almost feels like two contradicting commandments. But then I guess when you look at it instead of in two dimensions, but you add time into it and processes and development and those things, then you go like, oh, okay. Those things aren't conflicting. Adam and Eve were told to multiply and replenish the earth and to not eat the fruit. You could say in two dimensions. Those are two opposing things, right? But in three dimensions, when you add time and space into that, those aren't necessarily, you don't know the timeline in which those things were being asked of them to do. And I'm sure God had a plan that was going to go, cool. Don't take this fruit now. Maybe down the road when you're ready, after you've learned. Blank, blank, blank, blank. You see what I'm saying? We're told to multiply planets to the earth, but don't have sex before we get married. Those aren't two conflicting things. Because we go like, cool. Time is part of this as well. I guess all I'm saying is that even though it's a fine line between all of these things, and this is why, again, as somebody that really, my entire world revolves around creation, it's how I pay my bills. It's, by the way, what gets me up in the morning, really, in both the things that my wife and I have created, the things that are going to be created, even in the studio that we're sitting. I'm saying it's something that really consumes my thoughts. Because, by the way, too, what do we look for in an athlete? We look for the dude that's confident, right? Every team in the world needs the dude that goes out there thinking he really is the best player in the entire world. This is what my son was asking me when we're talking about pride. He's like, don't you tell me all the time to play like, as if I think I'm the best player in the world. I'm like, yeah. Oh, dang it. You know what I mean? [01:12:28] Speaker A: You see what I'm saying? [01:12:29] Speaker B: Us, so much of this, and this is why I have had such a really great experience trying to read through these, is because it's hard to totally just understand where all of these lines are, I guess, is what I'm saying. And without the spirit, it's probably even harder to try to know when you're walking too close to that line, I guess. [01:12:58] Speaker A: And maybe that's the best check we can offer ourselves, is when is the last time I felt the spirit? When is the last time the Lord's taught me something? When was the last time I was humble enough to realize I was wrong? Which I think is the antidote to pride, that humility. When did the Lord correct me? And I realized I needed his help? When was I last crying in my prayers? Because I realized I needed more help to figure this out and I couldn't do it on my own. When was the last time we were humble and feeling that spirit? Because if it's been a while, maybe we're the tall cedars of Lebanon. Maybe we're still trees. We're still expected to grow. We're still like Christ. But every now and again, we just disconnect from that source of water, and it's going to take a little bit of humbling to get us back there. [01:13:59] Speaker B: Luckily. I also think that the idea of perfect balance is a myth. I think that life is much more of a pendulum. And the more in life, the less extreme the pendulum swings is probably what we could be hoping for, right? Just more mellow left and right motion. I think that all the time we talk about finding balance, and I'm just like, I don't think it's real. I do think, though, that instead, like you said, there are seasons and there are times and there are times where we ebb and flow. And I think that so much of it just needs to be instead of trying to find the perfect balance of all of these things. Instead, at least for me, is find the processes of being honest enough with myself, of knowing where I'm at and making sure that at least my ship is sailing in the correct direction, even if it gets blown a little bit off course here and there, making sure that I'm completely confident, you know what I mean? In where I'm looking, in where my eyesight is. They talk about this all the time in mountain biking, right? Your bike goes where your eyes are. And if you're too concerned, you know what I mean? With, like, looking straight down and a corner comes, you're going to wipe out. And even in corners, as scary as it is, you're not looking at what's underneath your bike, you're looking up ahead of it. Right. It's a principle that I feel like helps me make sense of how do I know when I've moved a little too far in one direction or another? And so instead of, for me, I guess, the bow I'm trying to put on this is, gosh dang it, it's a lot to think about. And if it can be actually kind of stressful to go, how am I supposed to know how close to that line I should be walking? And instead I can go, well, you know what? I'm probably going to blow it. You know what I mean? If, on all honesty, I'm probably going to blow it. Thank God, right? Truly him, that he gave us this plan to correct the course throughout the thing, to fix it as we blow it. And instead of having to feel the pressure of, if you don't walk up to every covenant you've ever made in this moment right now, that's it. And you're basically, to hell with you. That's not the plan. And it's a lie to think that that ever was. And instead it's, have patience with yourself, have grace with yourself. I expect perfection. I expect that eventually, but that's a process. Let's work on that process together. And then it's like, okay, the Lord. [01:16:57] Speaker A: Doesn'T expect that bride to sit in the dust forever, right? Maybe she did know he's talking about Jerusalem, and maybe he did have to cut all of that off, but did he not also bring her back into the land? And I love that he's using the image of stripping down and clothing because, I mean, Jacob even says it in chapter nine when he talks about the death. Wherefore we shall have a perfect knowledge of our guilt and the uncleanliness and our nakedness. And we've talked about that nakedness, that sense of shame and that guilt, right? And he says, and have a perfect knowledge of their enjoyment and their righteousness. Being clothed with purity. And we've talked about being clothed as this atonement. When you go back to Jerusalem and you see her being stripped, and then you see her being clothed again just because we messed up. I guess what I'm trying to say is this. The atonement was never an audible. It was never. Oh, now they messed up. Now what do we do? [01:17:53] Speaker B: It's a great point. [01:17:55] Speaker A: The atonement was always the plan. And Christ was chosen before the foundation of the world to clothe our nakedness. And there were things that we were going to do that would result in us being stripped. Jerusalem losing all of her counselors, her prophets, and being stripped. And there's things that we're going to do that we wish we could hide from, that embarrass us, that we wish we could go crawl up in a corner and just nobody look at me. But the Lord will clothe us. And like you said, nate, it was somebody else who said, we have to be perfect. And there's no hope for you if you don't live up to everything. Let's not listen to that voice. Because the very beginning, there was a plan for all of us that messed up. You don't have to force everyone to be perfect. There is a plan. And being imperfect was part of that plan. God had it right all along. We just have to have trust that he can redeem us when we fall. That was the plan. If we think we can't fall and it's possible that somehow you could force everyone to be perfect and that there is a better way, then we've been listening to the wrong person. [01:19:02] Speaker B: Well, you brought up a great point that just totally put a light bulb on for me, too. That sometimes that pride is manifest in almost in despair, like you said, that we don't trust that God can do it because we've learned to only believe in what we can do with our own hands or what we can do for ourselves. It's like, sadly, sometimes that pride is us just being unwilling to hand over that trust that we're not terrible and that we can be redeemed. And sometimes that pride is manifest, not how we expect or how we think of that word usually, which is, well, I'm better than you. When we think of pride, that's what we associate, right? It's like an arrogance or whatever. My goodness, you just highlighted something also that's just important to think about, is that sometimes that pride is also just going, I'm going to turn over my guilt to you. I am going to come to you naked to be clothed, and it's going to hurt, and it's going to take humility to do so. But I'm willing to do that to be redeemed. It's interesting how pride can even just be manifest on almost those two extremes, the tools that Satan has at his disposal at this point. It's tough, man. It's tough. It's tough. A lot of times I think that humility is the answer, but functionally getting there, I guess, as I'm just, even just trying to finish thinking through that whole process. Right? Like a lot of people in the pride cycle don't come to God because they think that they don't need him because of how great everything is. Man. How many times do we not go to God because of our own guilt and shame and embarrassment? I mean, this is where I'm raising my hand, right? But isn't that pride as well? Do we not truly believe that he can forgive us for even the dumbest of things that we've done? Do we not trust him enough that he can forget, as he said, the things that we sometimes can't forget? Doesn't that take humility to overcome those things just as much as the person that has everything great going for them? I guess maybe it's even harder. Who knows? [01:21:50] Speaker A: I like that. I don't know. As I try to think of where to kind of wrap this up. Yes. [01:21:57] Speaker B: Sorry, I didn't really tee that one up for you as nicely as you've. [01:22:02] Speaker A: No. And guys, this is Isaiah. I can get lost in Isaiah. I find it so beautiful. It's scary. And you read about the destruction and he balances it again with, yeah, you're going to be stripped and naked and sitting in the dust and destroyed. And God will love you and clothe you and bring you back and restore you. And by the way, you're going to be burning in hell for a long time. But guess what? He's not going to let you suffer and he's going to bring you. I don't know, it's interesting. But I guess what I wanted to kind of wrap this up is where we started with names. And when we're taking upon us the name of Christ and we think about all of his names, his name was the shepherd. And how do we be the shepherd? Yet he was the sheep. And how do we be the sheep? He was the tree. And yet are we not also often compared to the tree? And as much as we try to think that we're different or we're ruined or we're lost, or there's too much of a gulf between us and God, I think a lot of the scriptures in Isaiah, as much as we feel guilt or try to. I don't know. Maybe it's just a worthless ramble at this point, but I don't think so. He keeps telling us, I'm just like you. You're just like me. You are worth saving. Do we trust him enough to believe that? Or are we proudful to think that I know better, I'm not worth saving? Or are we proudful to think that I don't need saving? Like you said, Nate, there's two extremes on this, but what keeps us grounded is that being one with Christ, taking his name upon us, being like him, and allowing us to believe that we can be like him, that's where I want to go. [01:24:13] Speaker B: Amen, brother. We appreciate you all that. Listen, we appreciate you sharing this with your friends. You can get a hold of us at the email address. [email protected] as always, we appreciate the feedback, the messages, the emails that we get, the questions that we get. If there's any ideas that you all have, we love hearing your perspective on it as well. We always try to curate this podcast to feel as conversational as possible, because we want you to feel just as much to be part of this conversation. Hopefully we can say things that inspire you to seek your own answers and hopefully a lot deeper revelation than we can ever be able to provide. But hopefully, if nothing else, you'll sense our desire for you to be just as much a part of this conversation as we ever are and all of that stuff. But we really do appreciate you listening. We do appreciate the feedback. Until next week. [01:25:18] Speaker A: See ya.